place name help


michael fike
 

Hello all,  I am new to FH and I have done very little research into my Welsh ancestors.  What I need help with is Welsh place names and entering them into FH.  Well, actually all place names within the British Isles.  Forgive me if British Isles is not the right verbiage

I am using a 4 column place approach ... for US  city, county, state, nation.  I am not sure how this will work for British Isle places.  .

I have one ancestor whose birth location is Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales.  What is the fourth entry?

Can someone point me to a resource to learn how to determine British Isles place names so I can determine the fourth entry?  For example what is the British equivalent of city, county, state, etc.

Even if you can tell me the fourth entry (I would be grateful!) I am looking for a resource so I can learn.  Like the adage ... teach a person to fish.

I have gleaned from various topics there are different ways (opinions?) on the right methodology. I would just like to start with an understanding of proper place names or the different types of place names.  If there is a website on this topic I have not found it.

I hope my request is understandable.  Thank you all.


Mike Tate
 

Welcome Michael,

Yes, our place names are a little different from the USA.

 

This article on The UK & Great Britain – What’s the Difference?

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

Explains the subtle differences between UK, Britain and the British Isles.

It also suggests how to fill in your city, county, state, nation place fields.

 

You will also discover that UK place names can change a lot over time.

The same city can appear in a different county depending on what year you are researching.

 

Also, in 1801 Ireland became part of the UK, but in 1922 was split into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

 

Best wishes and ask any other questions you may have.

 

Mike Tate

 


michael fike
 

Thank you Mike.  I now do have a clear understanding of GB, UK, and BI.

I dipped my toe in the explanation of UKs different "counties" and decided that its too early in the day to have a couple fingers of the good stuff to help me wrap my head around the differences.  That will be a weekend read.

Thanks again


Adrian Bruce
 

Personally, if I stuck to a rigid arrangement of columns, then I'd leave a column blank when entering Welsh place names. Thus, settlement would be column 1 in both cases, county could be column 2 in both cases, country (Wales or USA) would be column 4 in both cases, while column 3 would be blank for Welsh names. 

Don't get tied up in the different sorts of counties - you should only need one in each place name.

Personally, I don't stick to column arrangements that match across different countries - I just try to be consistent inside each different country. (Some say Ireland needs 5 columns, for instance, which I only found out after creating hundreds of 3 part English and Scots places... ) 

Your biggest problem with Welsh names is whether you want to use the English or Welsh spellings! That really does get confusing as I found out recently.

Adrian


johnfirr@...
 

Hope its appropriate to jump on this thread with a follow on question.?

I have been using a three column strategy for places so for instance if the Location was say  3 Cook Street, Wesminster, London, England. I would currently enter London, , England as the place and 3 Cook Street, Westminster as the address. This lines everything up nicely but of course means all London based addresses get flagged at one central London place.
So having read this thread and realised that you can add columns I ran a test with a fourth column so that the Place could become Wesminster, London, , England and lo and behold I get more accurate mapping.

The problem is that all of my existing 3 place entries are now not in line ie city remains in column 1 whereas I want it in column 2, County is in Column 2 and I want it in 3 and country is in 3 and I want it in 4. Now I know I can go through and add the requisite commas to all the place names but with over a thousand places this is a hell of a job. Is there an easy way to effectively shift all the existing places one column to the right so they have a leading blank and everything lines up? Hope I have articulated that such that it makes vague sense?
regards
John.


John Hanson
 

You can use the “Rearrange Address and Place Parts” plugin to do that
But you will need to do it before you change any of the others manually

Try it on a copy od the project and ALWAYS make sure that you have a backup first

 

Regards
John Hanson - researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust - https://www.halsted.org.uk
Research website - https://www.halstedresearch.org.uk

2021 Family History Conference - https://www.elizabethanancestors.org.uk

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 17 April 2021 07:23
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] place name help

 

Hope its appropriate to jump on this thread with a follow on question.?

I have been using a three column strategy for places so for instance if the Location was say  3 Cook Street, Wesminster, London, England. I would currently enter London, , England as the place and 3 Cook Street, Westminster as the address. This lines everything up nicely but of course means all London based addresses get flagged at one central London place.
So having read this thread and realised that you can add columns I ran a test with a fourth column so that the Place could become Wesminster, London, , England and lo and behold I get more accurate mapping.

The problem is that all of my existing 3 place entries are now not in line ie city remains in column 1 whereas I want it in column 2, County is in Column 2 and I want it in 3 and country is in 3 and I want it in 4. Now I know I can go through and add the requisite commas to all the place names but with over a thousand places this is a hell of a job. Is there an easy way to effectively shift all the existing places one column to the right so they have a leading blank and everything lines up? Hope I have articulated that such that it makes vague sense?
regards
John.


Golden Oldie
 

For Westminster try combining the parish and Westminster into one column. Westminster St. Mary, Westminster St. James Piccadilly, even Westminster St. George Hanover Square. This can be adopted to other London boroughs as well in the 19th century. But the City of London is best left as 4 columns.

Remember that Westminster was not part of London until the late 1890s, nor were any of the other boroughs. Before that they were in the County of Middlesex.

Regards



Mike Tate
 

It is not necessary to run the Rearrange Address and Place Parts plugin before changing others.

The plugin lets you choose which Place records to rearrange and leave the others alone.

I am saddened that you’d think my plugin would be so inflexible! 😊

Mike Tate


Roger Evans
 

Mike,

Croeso  --welcome

The issue is a little more complicated than that you offer as an example.

Merthyr Tydfil is an aglomeration/amalgamation  of a number of small areas/ villages that were once separately identified but by mid-the 1800's had merged into one "town" and therefore one registration and enummerated district frequentlu more than one parish.  The same can be said of many towns and cities that expanded from small beginnings in the late1700's/early 1800's.

Additionally some parishes were moved in and out of registration and Local Government administrations as populations changed with the changes in employment.

A useful resource I find is GENUKI  -- in your example GENUKI, Glamorgan, Merthyr Tydfil

To complicate the matter many of the enumerators for census eturns were english so place names as recorded some times bear no resemblance of the place name then or now.  I instance this by my own heritage which in part comes from rural mid-wales.  The parish is now called Llanddeusant , Carmarthenshire  but in the early records frequently shows up as Llanthoysant, Llanddausant and some folk credit this to another place of the same name  on Anglesey their only 120 miles apart

I'm lucky for me the Welsh is no problem  -- I get many a good laugh

Finally I would say a 5 column spread would be better than a 4.

There are a number of Family History groups on FACEBOOK with members who have a excellent and in depth knowledge of their locality so perhaps include them in your queries

Regards

Roger


Paul Sillitoe
 

I concur with Roger's analysis. I've recently completed a large-scale archival cataloguing project that required historical names and locations of Nonconformist chapels in Wales to be aligned over time, and to respect changes in local administrative boundaries - using English and Welsh names. Merthyr, bless it, was one of the most demanding areas to deal with in that regard. 

All best

Paul Sillitoe 



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone but not so smart as to usefully auto-correct the typos from my large fingers 🙂


-------- Original message --------
From: "Roger Evans via groups.io" <r.evans441@...>
Date: 17/04/2021 19:27 (GMT+00:00)
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] place name help

Mike,

Croeso  --welcome

The issue is a little more complicated than that you offer as an example.

Merthyr Tydfil is an aglomeration/amalgamation  of a number of small areas/ villages that were once separately identified but by mid-the 1800's had merged into one "town" and therefore one registration and enummerated district frequentlu more than one parish.  The same can be said of many towns and cities that expanded from small beginnings in the late1700's/early 1800's.

Additionally some parishes were moved in and out of registration and Local Government administrations as populations changed with the changes in employment.

A useful resource I find is GENUKI  -- in your example GENUKI, Glamorgan, Merthyr Tydfil

To complicate the matter many of the enumerators for census eturns were english so place names as recorded some times bear no resemblance of the place name then or now.  I instance this by my own heritage which in part comes from rural mid-wales.  The parish is now called Llanddeusant , Carmarthenshire  but in the early records frequently shows up as Llanthoysant, Llanddausant and some folk credit this to another place of the same name  on Anglesey their only 120 miles apart

I'm lucky for me the Welsh is no problem  -- I get many a good laugh

Finally I would say a 5 column spread would be better than a 4.

There are a number of Family History groups on FACEBOOK with members who have a excellent and in depth knowledge of their locality so perhaps include them in your queries

Regards

Roger


John Hanson
 

Mike

My apolgies if you thought that I was being negative against your plugin – it was not the intention otherwise I would not have recommended it in the first place and I have successfully used it myself

 

What I was trying to say (perhaps I should wake up fully before replying) was that it might be better to re-organise/sort everything else before making any changes

 

I am still trying to work out what to do with the 23,500 address/places that I imported from TMG where it is a single entry for everything and is a question of how to split it, if at all

 

But that is the subject for another thread

Regards

John

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Tate
Sent: 17 April 2021 09:56
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] place name help

 

It is not necessary to run the Rearrange Address and Place Parts plugin before changing others.

The plugin lets you choose which Place records to rearrange and leave the others alone.

I am saddened that you’d think my plugin would be so inflexible! 😊

Mike Tate