How to handle Illegitimate Births


johnfirr@...
 

I am just researching a very large extended but rural family grouping as part of my One name Study and they have been quite an interesting challenge not least due to multiple illegitimate births ( and then some "passing around" of same children to be raised by aunties etc.

I had a bit of an issue enetring an illegitimate birth via Ancestral Sources which I still dont fully understand, something to do with the child already existing in a family? but I worked around that.

It made me realise however that there are various ways to treat such a birth.

So my question is this:

Mother A gives birth to child B
Mother subsequently marries Spouse C
They then have a second child D who carries the fathers surname whilst child B is integrated into family but mainatins mothers surname on subsequent census etc.

How do people treat this in FH?

Do you set up one family with both children and use the "relationaship to parents" box to show mother is birth mother but father is not birth father for the illiegitimate birth. ( this is where Ancestral sources stuttered?)
Do you set up the mother in two families - one for the illegitimate child showing no father and then a seperate one for the marriage family?

Hope that question makes ense?

with thanks
John Firr
M


Mike Tate
 

John,

I believe most users adopt your last scenario.

Set up the mother in two families - one for the illegitimate child showing no father and then a separate one for the married family.

It is also feasible to set the Parent-Child relationship to ‘illegitimate’ for the illegitimate child.

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 23 April 2022 13:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

I am just researching a very large extended but rural family grouping as part of my One name Study and they have been quite an interesting challenge not least due to multiple illegitimate births ( and then some "passing around" of same children to be raised by aunties etc.

I had a bit of an issue enetring an illegitimate birth via Ancestral Sources which I still dont fully understand, something to do with the child already existing in a family? but I worked around that.

It made me realise however that there are various ways to treat such a birth.

So my question is this:

Mother A gives birth to child B
Mother subsequently marries Spouse C
They then have a second child D who carries the fathers surname whilst child B is integrated into family but mainatins mothers surname on subsequent census etc.

How do people treat this in FH?

Do you set up one family with both children and use the "relationaship to parents" box to show mother is birth mother but father is not birth father for the illiegitimate birth. ( this is where Ancestral sources stuttered?)
Do you set up the mother in two families - one for the illegitimate child showing no father and then a seperate one for the marriage family?

Hope that question makes ense?

with thanks
John Firr
M


Brent Tapscott
 

I certainly have that scenario set-up as two families in FH.    AS handles that with no problem at all when entering the Birth / Baptism of the illegitimate child, so am unsure why you think it "stuttered".


johnfirr@...
 

Hi Brent,
sorry should have been clearer. It "stuttered" with one family. the two family setup was fine so that looks like the way to go I think.
regards
John F


Andrew Braid
 

I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 
In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? 

Andrew Braid 



rsamoir@blueyonder.co.uk
 

Almost every family will have an illegitimate birth! Some clearly acknowledged with a father(seldom) and some where the bet is on the second name, Adam Smith Brown. Set up a second family with a partner Smith and mark the child as illegitimate. After that you just have to follow the records, what was the child in censuses, marriage etc, 

Alastair Moir


On 23 Apr 2022, at 16:21, Andrew Braid <Jamesandrewbraid@...> wrote:


I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 
In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? 

Andrew Braid 



rsamoir@blueyonder.co.uk
 

Perhaps a bigger problem is where the youngest, or junior, member of a family is actually the illegitimate child of an elder daughter!  What do you tell the family? 

Alastair Moir


On 23 Apr 2022, at 16:46, rsamoir@... via groups.io <rsamoir@...> wrote:

Almost every family will have an illegitimate birth! Some clearly acknowledged with a father(seldom) and some where the bet is on the second name, Adam Smith Brown. Set up a second family with a partner Smith and mark the child as illegitimate. After that you just have to follow the records, what was the child in censuses, marriage etc, 

Alastair Moir


On 23 Apr 2022, at 16:21, Andrew Braid <Jamesandrewbraid@...> wrote:


I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 
In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? 

Andrew Braid 



Mike Tate
 

If you believe the children had separate fathers then use two ‘Spouse’ tabs to emulate the real world scenario.

If you believe the children had the same father then use just one tab.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Andrew Braid
Sent: 23 April 2022 16:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 

In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? 

 

Andrew Braid 

 

 


Andrew Braid
 

Mike

Thanks. This is the conclusion I had come to but I can find no more evidence as yet to know which way to go. 

Andrew 

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 17:25 Mike Tate <post@...> wrote:

If you believe the children had separate fathers then use two ‘Spouse’ tabs to emulate the real world scenario.

If you believe the children had the same father then use just one tab.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Andrew Braid
Sent: 23 April 2022 16:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 

In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? 

 

Andrew Braid 

 

 


Adrian Bruce
 



On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 16:21, Andrew Braid <Jamesandrewbraid@...> wrote:
I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 
In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? ...


Usually I put both children on *one* tab with an unknown father because in my own head "unknown" means exactly that and covers the possibility that there are actually two different fathers. But perhaps you have to have that sort of mindset to think like that. If you feel like you are likely to interpret one tab with an unknown as a single unknown person, then perhaps you should have two tabs.

Since my 3G GM had 6 illegitimate children (plus one legitimate), I really didn't feel like creating 6 different tabs plus one. Just a little expensive in real estate, I thought.

Adrian
 


Brent Tapscott
 

Like Adrian, I have a person who had multiple illegitimate children and have taken a similar approach of having them all on one tab.   If (and it is probably unlikely!) I find the father for one (or more) I know I can easily move that child record to a separate tab / family record.    It could, of course, be the case that all the children were actually fathered by the same person, so I don't feel having them all on one tab / family record is particularly "wrong".


Sue Herrington
 

I too have a similar scenario. My 2x GGM had 8 children from 1834-1857, all of them illegitimate, none of them with “useful” middle names & none of them with a father named on a birth certificate or baptism record. She never married &, apart from the 1841 Census, was not recorded as living with anyone other than her children.

 

I doubt very much that the same man fathered all of her children, indeed the man with whom she is enumerated in 1841 (along with her third child) was transported to Bermuda a few years later & so was clearly out of the picture for some of the later children. All of the children are currently on one “unknown” tab for the same reason as Adrian.

 

Sue

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Adrian Bruce
Sent: 23 April 2022 22:13
To: Family Historian Groups.io mailing list
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

 

 

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 16:21, Andrew Braid <Jamesandrewbraid@...> wrote:

I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 

In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? ...

 

 

Usually I put both children on *one* tab with an unknown father because in my own head "unknown" means exactly that and covers the possibility that there are actually two different fathers. But perhaps you have to have that sort of mindset to think like that. If you feel like you are likely to interpret one tab with an unknown as a single unknown person, then perhaps you should have two tabs.

 

Since my 3G GM had 6 illegitimate children (plus one legitimate), I really didn't feel like creating 6 different tabs plus one. Just a little expensive in real estate, I thought.

 

Adrian

 

 


stephen.challis@...
 

I am also in this increasingly large boat.

 

My great-great grandfather, William Challis, married Esther Markham in 1860. However, the 1861 census shows an Abraham Markham living with Esther’s parents. Abraham’s baptism record dated 18th May 1871 gives his age as 14 and his parentage as ‘Esther Jane Markham, a single woman’. He must therefore have been born to Esther in 1856 or 1857 – before Esther married Abraham. If Abraham had been his father, surely this would have been recorded on the baptism certificate. And he probably would have been living with them in 1861.

 

Interestingly, Abraham later adopted the surname of Challis, and the conversations and writings of my great-grandfather and two of my great-uncles indicate that they believed that Abraham was William’s son.

 

Despite this, my diagram of William Challis descendants does not include Abraham, although, of course, a diagram of Esther Markham’s descendants would.

 

Stephen Challis

Please reply to Stephen.Challis@...

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 23 April 2022 13:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

I am just researching a very large extended but rural family grouping as part of my One name Study and they have been quite an interesting challenge not least due to multiple illegitimate births ( and then some "passing around" of same children to be raised by aunties etc.

I had a bit of an issue enetring an illegitimate birth via Ancestral Sources which I still dont fully understand, something to do with the child already existing in a family? but I worked around that.

It made me realise however that there are various ways to treat such a birth.

So my question is this:

Mother A gives birth to child B
Mother subsequently marries Spouse C
They then have a second child D who carries the fathers surname whilst child B is integrated into family but mainatins mothers surname on subsequent census etc.

How do people treat this in FH?

Do you set up one family with both children and use the "relationaship to parents" box to show mother is birth mother but father is not birth father for the illiegitimate birth. ( this is where Ancestral sources stuttered?)
Do you set up the mother in two families - one for the illegitimate child showing no father and then a seperate one for the marriage family?

Hope that question makes ense?

with thanks
John Firr
M


Victor Markham
 

My grandfather was baptised George Henry Briggs in 1862 with no father's name on. His birth certificate also had no father's name on. In 1865 his mother married Charles Markham and George was known as Markham after that. When my father married he gave his father's name as George Markham. I have had a DNA to see if Charles was his father. He is not.

On 24 Apr 2022, at 15:30, stephen.challis@... wrote:

I am also in this increasingly large boat.

 

My great-great grandfather, William Challis, married Esther Markham in 1860. However, the 1861 census shows an Abraham Markham living with Esther’s parents. Abraham’s baptism record dated 18th May 1871 gives his age as 14 and his parentage as ‘Esther Jane Markham, a single woman’. He must therefore have been born to Esther in 1856 or 1857 – before Esther married Abraham. If Abraham had been his father, surely this would have been recorded on the baptism certificate. And he probably would have been living with them in 1861.

 

Interestingly, Abraham later adopted the surname of Challis, and the conversations and writings of my great-grandfather and two of my great-uncles indicate that they believed that Abraham was William’s son.

 

Despite this, my diagram of William Challis descendants does not include Abraham, although, of course, a diagram of Esther Markham’s descendants would.

 

Stephen Challis

Please reply to Stephen.Challis@...

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 23 April 2022 13:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

I am just researching a very large extended but rural family grouping as part of my One name Study and they have been quite an interesting challenge not least due to multiple illegitimate births ( and then some "passing around" of same children to be raised by aunties etc.

I had a bit of an issue enetring an illegitimate birth via Ancestral Sources which I still dont fully understand, something to do with the child already existing in a family? but I worked around that.

It made me realise however that there are various ways to treat such a birth.

So my question is this:

Mother A gives birth to child B
Mother subsequently marries Spouse C
They then have a second child D who carries the fathers surname whilst child B is integrated into family but mainatins mothers surname on subsequent census etc.

How do people treat this in FH?

Do you set up one family with both children and use the "relationaship to parents" box to show mother is birth mother but father is not birth father for the illiegitimate birth. ( this is where Ancestral sources stuttered?)
Do you set up the mother in two families - one for the illegitimate child showing no father and then a seperate one for the marriage family?

Hope that question makes ense?

with thanks
John Firr
M


Pauline Parnell
 

You’re all making my family look quite tame! I think the most I’ve got in any one family is three (all on one tab). However, I’ve got one family where every daughter in one particular generation had at least one illegitimate child. I sometimes wonder if they were running the local brothel 😂😂

Pauline

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 at 12:25, Sue Herrington <sue.herrington9@...> wrote:

I too have a similar scenario. My 2x GGM had 8 children from 1834-1857, all of them illegitimate, none of them with “useful” middle names & none of them with a father named on a birth certificate or baptism record. She never married &, apart from the 1841 Census, was not recorded as living with anyone other than her children.

 

I doubt very much that the same man fathered all of her children, indeed the man with whom she is enumerated in 1841 (along with her third child) was transported to Bermuda a few years later & so was clearly out of the picture for some of the later children. All of the children are currently on one “unknown” tab for the same reason as Adrian.

 

Sue

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Adrian Bruce
Sent: 23 April 2022 22:13
To: Family Historian Groups.io mailing list
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

 

 

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 16:21, Andrew Braid <Jamesandrewbraid@...> wrote:

I have just found a similar situation. The mother never married but gave birth to two illegitimate children. I think by different fathers as they were born about 5 years apart and both have different second names that could be surnames. 

In the property box should I have the children in separate tabs with two unknown fathers or just a single tab with both children? ...

 

 

Usually I put both children on *one* tab with an unknown father because in my own head "unknown" means exactly that and covers the possibility that there are actually two different fathers. But perhaps you have to have that sort of mindset to think like that. If you feel like you are likely to interpret one tab with an unknown as a single unknown person, then perhaps you should have two tabs.

 

Since my 3G GM had 6 illegitimate children (plus one legitimate), I really didn't feel like creating 6 different tabs plus one. Just a little expensive in real estate, I thought.

 

Adrian

 

 


johnfirr@...
 

Thanks for all the repies, fascinating and in the scenario I explained at the start the two families approach definitely works well ( and I note puts a handy little blank box in the chart which makes spotting these nice and easy). However here is another scenario ( a real one from my tree but some of the individuals may still be alive so names are fictitious.

How would you represent this:

Harry Smith marries Debbie Jones and they have a son David Jones.
Harry and Debbie then divorce.
Debbie Smith nee Jones now marries Fred Bloggs
Fred Bloggs adopts David Jones who now gets brought up as David Bloggs.

Where do you put David on FH as son to birth father and mother or as son to birth mother and adopted father?

Interested to see replies

John F


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

In an analogous situation, I’ve recorded my sister with two sets of parents, one set by birth (mother and unknown father) and one set by adoption (mother and subsequent husband).

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 25 April 2022 17:38
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

Thanks for all the repies, fascinating and in the scenario I explained at the start the two families approach definitely works well ( and I note puts a handy little blank box in the chart which makes spotting these nice and easy). However here is another scenario ( a real one from my tree but some of the individuals may still be alive so names are fictitious.

How would you represent this:

Harry Smith marries Debbie Jones and they have a son David Jones.
Harry and Debbie then divorce.
Debbie Smith nee Jones now marries Fred Bloggs
Fred Bloggs adopts David Jones who now gets brought up as David Bloggs.

Where do you put David on FH as son to birth father and mother or as son to birth mother and adopted father?

Interested to see replies

John F

_._,_._,_


Victor Markham
 

I stick to the birth name. At the top right of the focus window is a + sign or does it say more (I am not at my computer so can't check) I prompt this and it opens a menu which let's you add extra information like 'known as' here you put the new surname and use that if you prefer

On 25 Apr 2022, at 17:38, "johnfirr via groups.io" <yahoo.co.uk@groups.io target=_blank>johnfirr=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks for all the repies, fascinating and in the scenario I explained at the start the two families approach definitely works well ( and I note puts a handy little blank box in the chart which makes spotting these nice and easy). However here is another scenario ( a real one from my tree but some of the individuals may still be alive so names are fictitious.

How would you represent this:

Harry Smith marries Debbie Jones and they have a son David Jones.
Harry and Debbie then divorce.
Debbie Smith nee Jones now marries Fred Bloggs
Fred Bloggs adopts David Jones who now gets brought up as David Bloggs.

Where do you put David on FH as son to birth father and mother or as son to birth mother and adopted father?

Interested to see replies

John F


Mike Tate
 

In FH you can do both, and record the Alternate Name with a citation as advised in the FHUG Knowledge Base:

‘Recording Children with Foster/Adoptive Parents’

‘How to Handle People With Multiple Names’

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 25 April 2022 17:38
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

Thanks for all the repies, fascinating and in the scenario I explained at the start the two families approach definitely works well ( and I note puts a handy little blank box in the chart which makes spotting these nice and easy). However here is another scenario ( a real one from my tree but some of the individuals may still be alive so names are fictitious.

How would you represent this:

Harry Smith marries Debbie Jones and they have a son David Jones.
Harry and Debbie then divorce.
Debbie Smith nee Jones now marries Fred Bloggs
Fred Bloggs adopts David Jones who now gets brought up as David Bloggs.

Where do you put David on FH as son to birth father and mother or as son to birth mother and adopted father?

Interested to see replies

John F


stephen.challis@...
 

My interest is in blood lines, so I would have him as David Jones but might generate an aka field and add the ‘David Bloggs’ name there. I would also reference this in my accompanying notes.

 

I’m interested to see others’ replies, too!

 

Stephen Challis

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of johnfirr via groups.io
Sent: 25 April 2022 17:38
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How to handle Illegitimate Births

 

Thanks for all the repies, fascinating and in the scenario I explained at the start the two families approach definitely works well ( and I note puts a handy little blank box in the chart which makes spotting these nice and easy). However here is another scenario ( a real one from my tree but some of the individuals may still be alive so names are fictitious.

How would you represent this:

Harry Smith marries Debbie Jones and they have a son David Jones.
Harry and Debbie then divorce.
Debbie Smith nee Jones now marries Fred Bloggs
Fred Bloggs adopts David Jones who now gets brought up as David Bloggs.

Where do you put David on FH as son to birth father and mother or as son to birth mother and adopted father?

Interested to see replies

John F