How do I see the full citation


Santa Traugott
 

I am just learning to use templated citations in v7 (Essential rather than Advanced.)   Using the source pane, I just prepared a citation for a birth certificate from Cook County, ILL.  I started off by selecting "Civil Certificate" from the Create Source from Template option.  

I filled in all the fields, including Certificate number, collection identification  [ Illinois, Cook County, Birth Certificates, 1871-1949], URL.  But the only thing that appears when I publish a report to see what it looks like, is "Birth Certificate of James Wilson Smith, August 27, 1912."  This is the text for both the footnote and the bibliography page.  I went into the Report Options box, tab for sources, and  Whole Citation is checked.  

I  am missing something elementary, I know, but how do I see the full source citation?  Or is the "Birth Certificate of James Wilson Smith, August 27, 1912" the citation (although the certificate number is missing) , and I need to be asking how to publish the full source?


Mike Tate
 

That is the way it works with templated Sources.

There are two ways to add more information to the Sources section of Reports.

  1. Change the Footnote Format template in the Source Template definition to include more Fields.
  2. Add information to the Text from Source, Notes or Media tabs of the Source Citation and enable those in the Report > Options > Sources tab.

 

 


Santa Traugott
 

Thanks for your reply, Mike.

If I understand you correctly, the Source template won’t produce footnotes, or bibliographic information with more than the source title, unless I follow one of the two options you provided.  Or, return to generic sourcing.

What I still don’t understand is, why is information like URL and repository entered into the Source Template at all, if it’s not to be used to generate a full citation for published reports, but instead has to be copied or re-entered into the text field?  It just seems like it must be used somehow.  


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

The source template will produce footnotes and source list entries with as many or as few of the sources fields if you want, if you don't like the settings the programme comes with initially. By default, the reporistory is included if you have specified one.

Mike's second suggestion is more appropriate for recording the content of the source, not identifying it.


Santa Traugott
 

I think that there is a small caveat to the first sentence above.   That is, the Essential Source Template Definitions themselves cannot be edited to add fields.   What I glean from reading the documentation (and experimenting with trying to do it) is that one would have to clone the source template definition, thereby producing a Custom Source Template, which can then be edited to add fields.    Please correct me if I have misunderstood this.

Producing a set of custom templates that generates footnotes as I want them to be would seem to at least assure consistency in sourcing, as opposed to going the generic sourcing route.  

 


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

Sandra, do you actually need to add fields? Or just get the existing fields to show up in the footnote/source list?

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:07
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I think that there is a small caveat to the first sentence above.   That is, the Essential Source Template Definitions themselves cannot be edited to add fields.   What I glean from reading the documentation (and experimenting with trying to do it) is that one would have to clone the source template definition, thereby producing a Custom Source Template, which can then be edited to add fields.    Please correct me if I have misunderstood this.

Producing a set of custom templates that generates footnotes as I want them to be would seem to at least assure consistency in sourcing, as opposed to going the generic sourcing route.  

 


Santa Traugott
 

I want all of the information that I entered in the Civil Registration Essential Source Template to be displayed in the footnotes.  So far, I can’t make that happen.  The only thing that is displayed in a footnote  is the source title.  I interpreted Mike to say that in order to make the other fields entered in the Source Template display, I would have to change the Source Template definitions.  But it turns out that the Essential Source Template definitions cannot be edited so as to add fields to what is displayed.  Instead, you have to make a copy of the template, and on that copy, you can specify the fields of the Source Template that you want displayed.   

But I am so confused now.

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 2:17 PM colevalleygirl@... <colevalleygirl@...> wrote:

Sandra, do you actually need to add fields? Or just get the existing fields to show up in the footnote/source list?

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:07
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I think that there is a small caveat to the first sentence above.   That is, the Essential Source Template Definitions themselves cannot be edited to add fields.   What I glean from reading the documentation (and experimenting with trying to do it) is that one would have to clone the source template definition, thereby producing a Custom Source Template, which can then be edited to add fields.    Please correct me if I have misunderstood this.

Producing a set of custom templates that generates footnotes as I want them to be would seem to at least assure consistency in sourcing, as opposed to going the generic sourcing route.  

 


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

Yes, if you make a copy of the Source Template Definition you can change the copy (I suggest you remove the original so that you don’t get confused and use the wrong one). That’s the best option if you’ll want to use the same template in multiple projects.  If you only have a single project, you can modify the standard Source Template Record within the project: use View > Other Record Lists > Source Templates from the menu, and double click on the one you want to change. Yu won’t be able to copy the changes you make this way back to a Source Template Definition though.

 

To have the Source Template Records always visible, go to Tools > Preferences and choose the Records Window option in the left hand pane. The set Source Templates to Always show.

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:55
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I want all of the information that I entered in the Civil Registration Essential Source Template to be displayed in the footnotes.  So far, I can’t make that happen.  The only thing that is displayed in a footnote  is the source title.  I interpreted Mike to say that in order to make the other fields entered in the Source Template display, I would have to change the Source Template definitions.  But it turns out that the Essential Source Template definitions cannot be edited so as to add fields to what is displayed.  Instead, you have to make a copy of the template, and on that copy, you can specify the fields of the Source Template that you want displayed.   

 

But I am so confused now.


Santa Traugott
 

I think maybe now the problem is with my definition of terms.  If it is permitted, this is the URL for the page I am trying to document.

You will see that I am trying to cite a particular certificate of birth within a dataset (digitized and accessed on FamilySearch) called Illinois Birth Certificates, 1871-1949.  

It seems to me that the title of the Source Record should be Illinois Birth Certificates 1871-1949.    I may cite this particular source record several times, for several different people. I also want the Source Record to include the information that the records were produced by Cook County Clerk and are now accessible on FamilySearch.   Because those elements don't change, across individuals (who were born in Illinois between 1871 and 1949).

(There might be other Source Records for Birth Certificates, all using the Civil Registration template, but for different collections, e.g, Michigan Birth Certificates 1871-1949.)  

But I also want to describe, in the same citation, which particular record I am talking about and any identifying or reference information that would help in locating it.  So that would be: person, the date of birth, the date of actual  registration of the birth,the place of birth within Illinois, and any further identification information, in this case  a certificate number.  Also the date when this source was accessed.   I think of these items, which change from person to person, as telling others (and me)  where within the source described above,  the individual record can be found.  

It seems to me that in a footnote, especially the first time the record is cited, all of this information should appear.   I could do this in V6, and I can also use generic sourcing to accomplish this in V7.  Minor inconsistencies in the format of citations  is less of a concern to me than getting all this information published  in footnotes with my reports or charts or whatever.

So let me impose on your patience one more time and  just ask the more general question:  How best, within V7, and using templates, to accomplish this?  

And thank you for the help so far.





On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 3:37 PM colevalleygirl@... <colevalleygirl@...> wrote:

Yes, if you make a copy of the Source Template Definition you can change the copy (I suggest you remove the original so that you don’t get confused and use the wrong one). That’s the best option if you’ll want to use the same template in multiple projects.  If you only have a single project, you can modify the standard Source Template Record within the project: use View > Other Record Lists > Source Templates from the menu, and double click on the one you want to change. Yu won’t be able to copy the changes you make this way back to a Source Template Definition though.

 

To have the Source Template Records always visible, go to Tools > Preferences and choose the Records Window option in the left hand pane. The set Source Templates to Always show.

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:55
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I want all of the information that I entered in the Civil Registration Essential Source Template to be displayed in the footnotes.  So far, I can’t make that happen.  The only thing that is displayed in a footnote  is the source title.  I interpreted Mike to say that in order to make the other fields entered in the Source Template display, I would have to change the Source Template definitions.  But it turns out that the Essential Source Template definitions cannot be edited so as to add fields to what is displayed.  Instead, you have to make a copy of the template, and on that copy, you can specify the fields of the Source Template that you want displayed.   

 

But I am so confused now.


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

Sandra, this conversation would be easier on the FHUG forums, but then we’d end up conversing on Facebook, here and on the forums, so I suggest we stay here unless you prefer otherwise.

 

Before we go much further, can I double-check my understanding? It sounds as if you want to create a single source for the entirety of that FamilySearch dataset, rather than a single source for an entry within that dataset, i.e. to ‘lump’ the source rather than split it? (see https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/citing-sources-method-1-and-method-2/ if the terminology ‘lump’ isn’t familiar).

 

If this is the case, then you will definitely need a custom source template, as the Essentials Civil Registration Certificate Template is designed for use with “One source record per civil registration certificate (any region of the world) for birth, marriage, death, divorce, etc. “ (I’ve taken that from the Description field of the Template). Most of the Essentials templates are ‘splitters’ templates, with the exception of the Civil Registration Index template.

 

Can I reassure you that what you want to do is certainly achievable.  As you’ve suggested, the steps will be:

 

  • Creating the custom Source Template with the appropriate source and citation fields. You will create a single Template to use for all such FamilySearch birth datasets.
  • Creating a source from the custom template for e.g. Illinois Birth Certificates 1871-1949
  • Citing that source where you need it
  • Configuring your reports to show the Footnote the first time the source is cited, and then the Short Footnote thereafter (plus the appropriate entry in the bibliography/source list).
  •  

Helen


Santa Traugott
 

Thank you very much.  This is very helpful.  I have read that sentence about one CR record per source record, without really understanding it.  Similarly, I have read the lumping and splitting discussion multiple times without its relevance to what I was doing sinking in.  Now, some light is beginning to dawn, and I will re-read about lumping v, splitting..

Yes, citing the whole FS dataset was my goal.  I actually couldn’t get my mind around any other way to think about this.  There will be more people in my family born in Illinois (died and married in Illinois) and so I will cite that source multiple times, with modifications for each person.  But I don’t expect to have to apply that particular source record to any other person, e.g., the mother and father shown in the source.  

Thank you so much for your patience.  

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 3:33 AM colevalleygirl@... <colevalleygirl@...> wrote:

Sandra, this conversation would be easier on the FHUG forums, but then we’d end up conversing on Facebook, here and on the forums, so I suggest we stay here unless you prefer otherwise.

 

Before we go much further, can I double-check my understanding? It sounds as if you want to create a single source for the entirety of that FamilySearch dataset, rather than a single source for an entry within that dataset, i.e. to ‘lump’ the source rather than split it? (see https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/citing-sources-method-1-and-method-2/ if the terminology ‘lump’ isn’t familiar).

 

If this is the case, then you will definitely need a custom source template, as the Essentials Civil Registration Certificate Template is designed for use with “One source record per civil registration certificate (any region of the world) for birth, marriage, death, divorce, etc. “ (I’ve taken that from the Description field of the Template). Most of the Essentials templates are ‘splitters’ templates, with the exception of the Civil Registration Index template.

 

Can I reassure you that what you want to do is certainly achievable.  As you’ve suggested, the steps will be:

 

  • Creating the custom Source Template with the appropriate source and citation fields. You will create a single Template to use for all such FamilySearch birth datasets.
  • Creating a source from the custom template for e.g. Illinois Birth Certificates 1871-1949
  • Citing that source where you need it
  • Configuring your reports to show the Footnote the first time the source is cited, and then the Short Footnote thereafter (plus the appropriate entry in the bibliography/source list).
  •  

Helen


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

Once you’ve done your planned reading, experiment with creating a custom template,. You can clone the Civil Registration Certificate template (but give it a name and description that doesn’t imply it’s a single certificate) and mark some of the existing fields in the clone as Citation fields rather than Source fields (e.g. the Principal, Date(s), Location, Reference...)  You’ll want a new Source field for ‘Source of the Source’ (maybe call it Credit Line or Citing?)  I suggest playing around in the Sample Project rather than with your ‘real’ project – you can make as many attempts as you like to get it right and not have to tidy up your real project afterwards. (The sample project is easy to reset completely).

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 25 May 2021 12:45
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

Thank you very much.  This is very helpful.  I have read that sentence about one CR record per source record, without really understanding it.  Similarly, I have read the lumping and splitting discussion multiple times without its relevance to what I was doing sinking in.  Now, some light is beginning to dawn, and I will re-read about lumping v, splitting..

 

Yes, citing the whole FS dataset was my goal.  I actually couldn’t get my mind around any other way to think about this.  There will be more people in my family born in Illinois (died and married in Illinois) and so I will cite that source multiple times, with modifications for each person.  But I don’t expect to have to apply that particular source record to any other person, e.g., the mother and father shown in the source.  

 

Thank you so much for your patience.  

 


Mike Tate
 

Sandra,

Some tips regarding splitter versus lumped Source Templates.

 

  1. Method 1 Splitter Source Templates
    The default template definitions mostly use this method. One exception is the
    Civil Registration Index template.
    This allows any source Fields defined in the template to be included in the Footnote Format that appears in the Sources section of Reports.
    Therefore you can include all the Fields of data that you enter in the Sources for Reports, which I think is what you requested.

Similarly, any source Fields can be included in the Record Title Format and Bibliography Format
This method needs one new Source record for every certificate.

  1. Method 2 Lumped Source Templates
    This will usually need Citation-specific Fields to hold details particular to each certificate.
    They can be included in the Footnote Format that appears in the Sources section of Reports.
    Therefore you can include all the Fields of data that you enter in the Sources for Reports, which I think is what you requested.
    However, Citation-specific Fields cannot be included in the Record Title Format and Bibliography Format which is logical.
    This method reuses the same Source record for many certificates.

 

 


Santa Traugott
 

I thank you all very much for your help and patience.  I have now successfully created a custom Source Template, and amended the footnote format therein, and now the footnote looks approximately as I would like it to be, and I think I know how to do further tinkering.

I wonder if part of the problem is that the splitting method for civil registration certificates may work better in England, because BMDs (after 1837) come from the GRO, whereas here in the States, births are recorded at the county level, and then usually at some point aggregated to the state level, so there are multiple places whether the certificate might have come from, not just one.  A birth certificate source for a person that simply records the name and date would be useless (on its own) in the U.S.  

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:04 AM Mike Tate <post@...> wrote:

Sandra,

Some tips regarding splitter versus lumped Source Templates.

 

  1. Method 1 Splitter Source Templates
    The default template definitions mostly use this method. One exception is the
    Civil Registration Index template.
    This allows any source Fields defined in the template to be included in the Footnote Format that appears in the Sources section of Reports.
    Therefore you can include all the Fields of data that you enter in the Sources for Reports, which I think is what you requested.

Similarly, any source Fields can be included in the Record Title Format and Bibliography Format
This method needs one new Source record for every certificate.

  1. Method 2 Lumped Source Templates
    This will usually need Citation-specific Fields to hold details particular to each certificate.
    They can be included in the Footnote Format that appears in the Sources section of Reports.
    Therefore you can include all the Fields of data that you enter in the Sources for Reports, which I think is what you requested.
    However, Citation-specific Fields cannot be included in the Record Title Format and Bibliography Format which is logical.
    This method reuses the same Source record for many certificates.

 

 


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

I’m glad you’ve sorted it.

 

You may be right, although there are people that lump English BMD. Also, births here were recorded first at the local level and then aggregated at the national level, so there are multiple places we can get certificates too. Perhaps a more important difference is that we have to pay to see the details on a certificate (as a paper or PDF copy), so that perhaps predisposes us to ‘splitting’ them.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 25 May 2021 20:27
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I thank you all very much for your help and patience.  I have now successfully created a custom Source Template, and amended the footnote format therein, and now the footnote looks approximately as I would like it to be, and I think I know how to do further tinkering.

 

I wonder if part of the problem is that the splitting method for civil registration certificates may work better in England, because BMDs (after 1837) come from the GRO, whereas here in the States, births are recorded at the county level, and then usually at some point aggregated to the state level, so there are multiple places whether the certificate might have come from, not just one.  A birth certificate source for a person that simply records the name and date would be useless (on its own) in the U.S.  

 


Jan Murphy
 

I struggled with the "lumper vs. splitter" idea for ages, then one day, the light bulb went on.  

Some programs like Family Tree Maker have a different way for handling sources where you can load all the 'top-level' information about a source so you don't have to repeat yourself over and over again, and a section where you put the information for the individual citation (the one certificate you may be looking at).  When I was just starting out in genealogy, this baffled me, but after reading the lumper/splitter debates on the FHUG forum, I finally started to get it. 

The program Clooz allows the user a lot of flexibility about how you enter the information.  Their video on Source Citations talks about various options there. Getting Started with Clooz video 4: Entering Documents (Source Citations)  

But when all else fails, I like to go to the Evidence Explained website, read the forum and lessons, and then think about what's there. 

Some links about FamilySearch and layered citations:

QuickLesson 25: ARKs, PALs, Paths & Waypoints (Citing Online Providers of Digital Images)

Layered Source Citations: What Comes First?

I wonder if some of the problem is that the templates may not be set up to capture all the layers of layered citations. 

However you record things, the basic principle is to cite what you use.  A certificate you view from FamilySearch should be cited differently than a certified copy ordered directly from Cook County, or acquired via the Illinois State Genealogical Society's program, because they may not be exactly the same.  In England and Wales, the copy obtained from the local record office may not have exactly the same information as one from the GRO.  And so on.  



Jan Murphy
Moderator Pro Tempore



On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:29 PM colevalleygirl@... <colevalleygirl@...> wrote:

I’m glad you’ve sorted it.

 

You may be right, although there are people that lump English BMD. Also, births here were recorded first at the local level and then aggregated at the national level, so there are multiple places we can get certificates too. Perhaps a more important difference is that we have to pay to see the details on a certificate (as a paper or PDF copy), so that perhaps predisposes us to ‘splitting’ them.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Santa Traugott
Sent: 25 May 2021 20:27
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] How do I see the full citation

 

I thank you all very much for your help and patience.  I have now successfully created a custom Source Template, and amended the footnote format therein, and now the footnote looks approximately as I would like it to be, and I think I know how to do further tinkering.

 

I wonder if part of the problem is that the splitting method for civil registration certificates may work better in England, because BMDs (after 1837) come from the GRO, whereas here in the States, births are recorded at the county level, and then usually at some point aggregated to the state level, so there are multiple places whether the certificate might have come from, not just one.  A birth certificate source for a person that simply records the name and date would be useless (on its own) in the U.S.