Import and created death


Edward Sneithe
 

I was intrigued by the topic on this site about facts without sources. I followed instructions and downloaded the correct query.

I was surprised to find I had many facts without sources.  Some were real but most were not. It turns out that the vast majority of those facts without sources were death facts that had absolutely no data in them.

I went back and examined by ged file but it was too voluminous to detect anything. I created a one person test file and that person was listed as not living and only one fact: a birth fact.

During the import into FH7 the death fact was manufactured by FH. It turns out that FH created a death fact based on the living flag. If the person was living then no death fact but if the flag said not living then FH manufactures a death fact.

This leads to many "errors" in the imported project. Is there any way to not have FH create a death fact in these cases?


Neil Grantham
 

Edward.
I can’t answer what FH is apparently doing but wonder how you created this one person import test.
Did you export the person from FH or from another program?
If FH did you remove the death fact first?
IE are you sure the Gedcom has no death fact?
Otherwise you are just importing the apparent mistake?

Best Wishes
Neil

Sent via BT Email App


From: Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: Mar 1, 2021 at 11:45 PM
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Import and created death

I was intrigued by the topic on this site about facts without sources. I followed instructions and downloaded the correct query.

I was surprised to find I had many facts without sources.  Some were real but most were not. It turns out that the vast majority of those facts without sources were death facts that had absolutely no data in them.

I went back and examined by ged file but it was too voluminous to detect anything. I created a one person test file and that person was listed as not living and only one fact: a birth fact.

During the import into FH7 the death fact was manufactured by FH. It turns out that FH created a death fact based on the living flag. If the person was living then no death fact but if the flag said not living then FH manufactures a death fact.

This leads to many "errors" in the imported project. Is there any way to not have FH create a death fact in these cases?


--
Neil Grantham
-------------------
Using FH 7 & AS 7
Researching Grantham, Skuce, Barrow, Birchall.


Mike Tate
 

Edward,

As a general rule, FH does not manufacture or discard facts on the import of a GEDCOM file.

I’m not sure what sort of flag you are talking about because standard GEDCOM does not support flags.

Presumably, you created the one-person test file in some other genealogy product?

Could you post a copy of that GEDCOM test file before it was imported to FH and we’ll try and explain what is happening?

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 01 March 2021 23:46
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

I was intrigued by the topic on this site about facts without sources. I followed instructions and downloaded the correct query.

I was surprised to find I had many facts without sources.  Some were real but most were not. It turns out that the vast majority of those facts without sources were death facts that had absolutely no data in them.

I went back and examined by ged file but it was too voluminous to detect anything. I created a one person test file and that person was listed as not living and only one fact: a birth fact.

During the import into FH7 the death fact was manufactured by FH. It turns out that FH created a death fact based on the living flag. If the person was living then no death fact but if the flag said not living then FH manufactures a death fact.

This leads to many "errors" in the imported project. Is there any way to not have FH create a death fact in these cases?


Lorna Craig
 

In a discussion in FHUG back in 2016 about import issues the matter of tags with a value of Y came up.  In the course of that discussion, Mike, you said  “DEATH or any other Event with value Y is perfectly valid GEDCOM.  It is used to signify that an otherwise empty Event must be retained.  Checkout the spec 5.5.”

 

I imagine that is what has happened here.

 

(The original, rather lengthy, discussion covered a range of issues. https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13254)

 

Lorna

 

From: Mike Tate
Sent: 02 March 2021 10:15
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

Edward,

As a general rule, FH does not manufacture or discard facts on the import of a GEDCOM file.

I’m not sure what sort of flag you are talking about because standard GEDCOM does not support flags.

Presumably, you created the one-person test file in some other genealogy product?

Could you post a copy of that GEDCOM test file before it was imported to FH and we’ll try and explain what is happening?

 


Mike Tate
 

That is correct but Edward talked very specifically about a “living flag” not a Death event.

It may depend on what product produced the GEDCOM file and perhaps ‘manufactured’ the Death event itself.

Without seeing the test GEDCOM file before importing to FH it is difficult to speculate.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Lorna Craig via groups.io
Sent: 02 March 2021 11:52
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

In a discussion in FHUG back in 2016 about import issues the matter of tags with a value of Y came up.  In the course of that discussion, Mike, you said  “DEATH or any other Event with value Y is perfectly valid GEDCOM.  It is used to signify that an otherwise empty Event must be retained.  Checkout the spec 5.5.”

 

I imagine that is what has happened here.

 

(The original, rather lengthy, discussion covered a range of issues. https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13254)

 

Lorna


Lorna Craig
 

Although Edward talked about a Living flag he also said

“If the person was living then no death fact but if the flag said not living then FH manufactures a death fact.”

A flag which says “not living” is not the same thing as the absence of a Living flag, so I think he is using different terminology. I think he is referring to a tag which can have the values of Y, N, or none.

 

 

From: Mike Tate
Sent: 02 March 2021 12:03
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

That is correct but Edward talked very specifically about a “living flag” not a Death event.

It may depend on what product produced the GEDCOM file and perhaps ‘manufactured’ the Death event itself.

Without seeing the test GEDCOM file before importing to FH it is difficult to speculate.

 

 


Edward Sneithe
 

Here are copies of two gedcom files I created in Rootsmagic. I am in the process of moving to FH but there is one glitch in FH that has been reported and passed to the developers that I need before completely moving. The first gedcom is one I created with a single person and there is a checkbox that indicates living or not.  Not sure about the terminology of a flag in this case. I am aware that "flags" do not transfer. The difference between the two files is just after the "3 ROLE Witness". If the living status is checked then there is nothing about a death. If I don't check the living box then there is an additional line "1 DEAT Y". This is probably what is causing the blank death fact in FH.

Is there a way to not create an empty death fact in this case? It creates way too many errors in the query for facts without sources for that query to be really useful.

Person is living.

0 HEAD
1 SOUR RootsMagic
2 NAME RootsMagic
2 VERS 7.6.5.0
2 CORP RootsMagic, Inc.
3 ADDR PO Box 495
4 CONT Springville, UT 84663
4 CONT USA
3 PHON 1-800-ROOTSMAGIC
3 WWW www.RootsMagic.com
1 DEST RootsMagic
1 DATE 1 MAR 2021
1 FILE TestWitness-living.ged
1 GEDC
2 VERS 5.5.1
2 FORM LINEAGE-LINKED
1 CHAR UTF-8
0 @I1@ INDI
1 NAME John /Public/
2 GIVN John
2 SURN Public
1 SEX M
1 _UID 0CAC9769895742CB83248B24A9B8E469A952
1 CHAN
2 DATE 1 MAR 2021
1 BIRT
2 DATE 1 JAN 1940
2 _SHAR @I2@
3 ROLE Witness
0 @I2@ INDI
1 NAME Harry /Jones/
2 GIVN Harry
2 SURN Jones
1 _UID B0983010FA374CEEB16AD494E30DA0868C86
1 CHAN
2 DATE 10 FEB 2021
0 TRLR

Person is not living.

0 HEAD
1 SOUR RootsMagic
2 NAME RootsMagic
2 VERS 7.6.5.0
2 CORP RootsMagic, Inc.
3 ADDR PO Box 495
4 CONT Springville, UT 84663
4 CONT USA
3 PHON 1-800-ROOTSMAGIC
3 WWW www.RootsMagic.com
1 DEST RootsMagic
1 DATE 1 MAR 2021
1 FILE TestWitness.ged
1 GEDC
2 VERS 5.5.1
2 FORM LINEAGE-LINKED
1 CHAR UTF-8
0 @I1@ INDI
1 NAME John /Public/
2 GIVN John
2 SURN Public
1 SEX M
1 _UID 0CAC9769895742CB83248B24A9B8E469A952
1 CHAN
2 DATE 1 MAR 2021
1 BIRT
2 DATE 1 JAN 1940
2 _SHAR @I2@
3 ROLE Witness
1 DEAT Y
0 @I2@ INDI
1 NAME Harry /Jones/
2 GIVN Harry
2 SURN Jones
1 _UID B0983010FA374CEEB16AD494E30DA0868C86
1 CHAN
2 DATE 10 FEB 2021
0 TRLR


On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 07:16:44 AM EST, Lorna Craig via groups.io <l.m.craig@...> wrote:


Although Edward talked about a Living flag he also said

“If the person was living then no death fact but if the flag said not living then FH manufactures a death fact.”

A flag which says “not living” is not the same thing as the absence of a Living flag, so I think he is using different terminology. I think he is referring to a tag which can have the values of Y, N, or none.

 

 

From: Mike Tate
Sent: 02 March 2021 12:03
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

That is correct but Edward talked very specifically about a “living flag” not a Death event.

It may depend on what product produced the GEDCOM file and perhaps ‘manufactured’ the Death event itself.

Without seeing the test GEDCOM file before importing to FH it is difficult to speculate.

 

 


Mike Tate
 

Edward,

You have effectively answered your own question.

It is RootsMagic that is manufacturing the DEAT Event not FH.

The ‘Y’ is a GEDCOM requirement when there are no subsidiary Date or Place details.

 

There are a number of solutions but I’m not sure deleting the blank Death events is one of them, because without them those people could mistakenly be treated as Living.

 

Firstly, in the ‘All Facts Without Sources’ Query, you can click on the leftmost ‘Fact’ column heading to sort into order.

Then all the Death events are grouped together, which makes reviewing all the other events much easier.

 

It is easy to modify the ‘All Facts Without Sources’ Query to exclude empty Death events by adding the following to the Rows tab:

Condition: Exclude if

Expression: =IsTrue((FactLabel(%FACT%) = "Death") and (%FACT.PLAC% = "") and NullDate(%FACT.DATE%))

Operator: Is true

 

In the FHUG Knowledge Base Downloads there is the ‘All Empty Facts’ Query with an explanation of how to delete such facts:

https://fhug.org.uk/kb/download/all-empty-facts-3/

But I’m not sure it is wise to delete those empty Death events.

 

Mike Tate

 


Lorna Craig
 

I am not familiar with Rootsmagic but from your description it seems to assume that if the checkbox for ‘Living’ is not checked it assumes the person has  definitely died.  That would be a false assumption because there must be many case where you don’t know whether or not someone is living.  How does it handle those cases?  Is the ‘Living’ checkbox simply checked or unchecked?  Or does it accept Y, N or empty?

 

Is Rootsmagic really is assuming that anyone not explicitly marked as living has died?  If so a lot of those empty death events should not be there at all. 

 

From: Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 02 March 2021 13:24
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

Here are copies of two gedcom files I created in Rootsmagic. I am in the process of moving to FH but there is one glitch in FH that has been reported and passed to the developers that I need before completely moving. The first gedcom is one I created with a single person and there is a checkbox that indicates living or not.  Not sure about the terminology of a flag in this case. I am aware that "flags" do not transfer. The difference between the two files is just after the "3 ROLE Witness". If the living status is checked then there is nothing about a death. If I don't check the living box then there is an additional line "1 DEAT Y". This is probably what is causing the blank death fact in FH.

 


Edward Sneithe
 

Thanks to all for your responses.

I will need to think about those empty death facts before I even consider deleting them. Beside having unsourced facts I'm not sure of the additional impact of keeping or deleting them

In the mean time Mike the query you suggested works great and I can eliminate from the result set all those empty death facts and I can clean up any other facts that don't have sources.

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 09:34:40 AM EST, Lorna Craig via groups.io <l.m.craig@...> wrote:


I am not familiar with Rootsmagic but from your description it seems to assume that if the checkbox for ‘Living’ is not checked it assumes the person has  definitely died.  That would be a false assumption because there must be many case where you don’t know whether or not someone is living.  How does it handle those cases?  Is the ‘Living’ checkbox simply checked or unchecked?  Or does it accept Y, N or empty?

 

Is Rootsmagic really is assuming that anyone not explicitly marked as living has died?  If so a lot of those empty death events should not be there at all. 

 

From: Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 02 March 2021 13:24
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Import and created death

 

Here are copies of two gedcom files I created in Rootsmagic. I am in the process of moving to FH but there is one glitch in FH that has been reported and passed to the developers that I need before completely moving. The first gedcom is one I created with a single person and there is a checkbox that indicates living or not.  Not sure about the terminology of a flag in this case. I am aware that "flags" do not transfer. The difference between the two files is just after the "3 ROLE Witness". If the living status is checked then there is nothing about a death. If I don't check the living box then there is an additional line "1 DEAT Y". This is probably what is causing the blank death fact in FH.