Revoked will


John Hanson
 

I have just comes across something that is a rarity and can find nothing in the knowledge base or forum that seems to covers it

 

The Louisa and her husband John died together in 1940 in the crypt of St Peter’s church, Walworth where they were sheltering during an air-raid.

 

There is no will for John but there is an administration by the H M Treasury Solicitor in 1942 for her estate valued at nearly £1,200 (at lot of money in 1940)

 

When looking at the entry for that there is a pencilled note saying that the entry was revoked in 1950 and a new administration re-spawn (I currently have no idea who the person requesting the administration is but must be family somewhere!)

Whilst I can happily record the two administration is a question of how to record the revoking – anyone any thoughts?

Regards

John Hanson


Adrian Bruce
 

I've never heard of a revoked Admon either - presumably distribution of the estate had not completed, else there'd be no point in revoking the Admon? 

For the revoking, as it's something that is unlikely to appear again very often, if at all, I'd probably just record the 2 grants of Letters of Administration, and in the notes for the second grant, I'd record the revoking there. Add a similar note to the first grant, if you like. 

If you don't use fact notes and don't want to start, then I guess that a custom event would be the way to go. 


Julia Vokes
 

I’m wondering if this instance was actually a variation of the Will which has to happen within two years of the person dying. Essentially it varies the distribution of the estate and is sometimes known as a Deed of family arrangement. It doesn’t matter whether the deceased left a Will or not. So I’m thinking maybe a relative came forward?
Below is the summary from the gov.uk website

Also known as a variation – or deed of family arrangement – this allows beneficiaries to rearrange or vary their entitlement. A deed of variation can be used by any person who receives a gift under a will to redirect their inheritance to another person. ... Changes can be made provided all the beneficiaries agree.

It’s a useful device as it can be used to reduce inheritance tax

Regards
Julia

, please excuse any typos.

On 6 Feb 2021, at 07:22, Adrian Bruce <abruce6155@...> wrote:


I've never heard of a revoked Admon either - presumably distribution of the estate had not completed, else there'd be no point in revoking the Admon? 

For the revoking, as it's something that is unlikely to appear again very often, if at all, I'd probably just record the 2 grants of Letters of Administration, and in the notes for the second grant, I'd record the revoking there. Add a similar note to the first grant, if you like. 

If you don't use fact notes and don't want to start, then I guess that a custom event would be the way to go. 


John Hanson
 

Julia

As it is an administration there is no will
I have sent for both admins – at £1.50 no great loss at £10 I’d be thinking differently I expect
Have also found that the administrator on the second one was the brother-in-law of the deceased woman

More interestingly their maternal line look like it might have links to my own brother-in-law but then BYFORD is a common name is Suffolk/Essex

Regards

John

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Julia Vokes
Sent: 06 February 2021 09:07
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Revoked will

 

I’m wondering if this instance was actually a variation of the Will which has to happen within two years of the person dying. Essentially it varies the distribution of the estate and is sometimes known as a Deed of family arrangement. It doesn’t matter whether the deceased left a Will or not. So I’m thinking maybe a relative came forward?

Below is the summary from the gov.uk website



Also known as a variation – or deed of family arrangement – this allows beneficiaries to rearrange or vary their entitlement. A deed of variation can be used by any person who receives a gift under a will to redirect their inheritance to another person. ... Changes can be made provided all the beneficiaries agree.



It’s a useful device as it can be used to reduce inheritance tax



Regards

Julia

, please excuse any typos.



On 6 Feb 2021, at 07:22, Adrian Bruce <abruce6155@...> wrote:



I've never heard of a revoked Admon either - presumably distribution of the estate had not completed, else there'd be no point in revoking the Admon? 

 

For the revoking, as it's something that is unlikely to appear again very often, if at all, I'd probably just record the 2 grants of Letters of Administration, and in the notes for the second grant, I'd record the revoking there. Add a similar note to the first grant, if you like. 

 

If you don't use fact notes and don't want to start, then I guess that a custom event would be the way to go. 


John Hanson
 

Adrian

Thanks – I might well have it in the Halstead files with over 3500 wills (going to have to straighten them out when I bring the file over from TMG!)
But I think that your idea works – can always go find them if need be
Revoked wills are more likely I suspect – I doubt that the Treasury still have the papers!
Will have to go ask the guru on all things genealogical

Regards

John

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Adrian Bruce
Sent: 06 February 2021 07:22
To: Family Historian Groups.io mailing list <Family-historian@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Revoked will

 

I've never heard of a revoked Admon either - presumably distribution of the estate had not completed, else there'd be no point in revoking the Admon? 

 

For the revoking, as it's something that is unlikely to appear again very often, if at all, I'd probably just record the 2 grants of Letters of Administration, and in the notes for the second grant, I'd record the revoking there. Add a similar note to the first grant, if you like. 

 

If you don't use fact notes and don't want to start, then I guess that a custom event would be the way to go. 


Richard Hooke
 

Hi John

Your circumstances raise a number of questions of probate/L of A  law

Eg

How old were they

 Is there a will

Who died first or deemed to have died first

Were there relatives who had been abroad or prisoners of war

HM Treasury Solicitor suggests  no relatives could be found

A probate /LOA is often required for title to properties

Interesting to speculate

Richard

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of John Hanson
Sent: 05 February 2021 23:15
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Revoked will

 

I have just comes across something that is a rarity and can find nothing in the knowledge base or forum that seems to covers it

 

The Louisa and her husband John died together in 1940 in the crypt of St Peter’s church, Walworth where they were sheltering during an air-raid.

 

There is no will for John but there is an administration by the H M Treasury Solicitor in 1942 for her estate valued at nearly £1,200 (at lot of money in 1940)

 

When looking at the entry for that there is a pencilled note saying that the entry was revoked in 1950 and a new administration re-spawn (I currently have no idea who the person requesting the administration is but must be family somewhere!)

Whilst I can happily record the two administration is a question of how to record the revoking – anyone any thoughts?

Regards

John Hanson


Adrian Bruce
 

Don't know about inheritance under intestacy, but there are rules about how titles are inherited if the holder and their heir die at the same time. IIRC, the heir is deemed to survive the holder for enough seconds to inherit the title. After that, it goes to the next heir - if any. (I learnt this from a railway history book!)

Whether a similar rule exists to determine who gets what in a case of intestacy, as here, I have no idea, but it's worth bearing in mind as a possible explanation for who might get what.



Lorna Craig
 

Adrian, that’s interesting but I recall learning something slightly different.  It was my understanding that if two people died more or less simultaneously (as in the case of a bombing incident) and there was no way of knowing exactly who died first, the older person was presumed to have died first. 

 

If it was just a case of assuming that the ‘heir’ survives longer, how would you resolve a case where the two people concerned had made each other their heirs?

 

Don't know about inheritance under intestacy, but there are rules about how titles are inherited if the holder and their heir die at the same time. IIRC, the heir is deemed to survive the holder for enough seconds to inherit the title. After that, it goes to the next heir - if any. (I learnt this from a railway history book!)

 


Adrian Bruce
 

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 12:19, Lorna Craig via groups.io
<l.m.craig=ntlworld.com@groups.io> wrote:
Adrian, that’s interesting but I recall learning something slightly different. It was my understanding that if two people died more or less simultaneously (as in the case of a bombing incident) and there was no way of knowing exactly who died first, the older person was presumed to have died first.
Doh! Your understanding is pretty much what I meant, only it says it
more generally.

For titles (which was all I was talking about) of course there is only
one heir so your objection of two heirs doesn't apply. However, in the
more general case, your statement makes sense and is more useful than
my formula.

Thanks
Adrian


David Dewick
 

Intestacy rules are even more complicated (or vindictive) if you are adopted and one of your adopted parents re-marry . ☹️

On 6 Feb 2021, at 12:30, Adrian Bruce <abruce6155@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 12:19, Lorna Craig via groups.io
<l.m.craig=ntlworld.com@groups.io> wrote:
Adrian, that’s interesting but I recall learning something slightly different. It was my understanding that if two people died more or less simultaneously (as in the case of a bombing incident) and there was no way of knowing exactly who died first, the older person was presumed to have died first.
Doh! Your understanding is pretty much what I meant, only it says it
more generally.

For titles (which was all I was talking about) of course there is only
one heir so your objection of two heirs doesn't apply. However, in the
more general case, your statement makes sense and is more useful than
my formula.

Thanks
Adrian





Julia Vokes
 

One thing that comes out loud and clear to me is the importance of making a Will and then keeping it up to date!! This is so relevant these days when people often marry more than once or not at all and might have children and step children from different relationships. Also worth remembering is that a divorce does not make a Will invalid, unlike a marriage, unless the Will was made with the marriage specifically mentioned.

A friend recently came unstuck badly, and expensively, when her common law husband died. She was the second partner and he had made his Will when married to the first wife and never updated it!!

Julia

On 6 Feb 2021, at 12:35, David Dewick <david.dewick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Intestacy rules are even more complicated (or vindictive) if you are adopted and one of your adopted parents re-marry . ☹️
On 6 Feb 2021, at 12:30, Adrian Bruce <abruce6155@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 12:19, Lorna Craig via groups.io
<l.m.craig=ntlworld.com@groups.io> wrote:
Adrian, that’s interesting but I recall learning something slightly different. It was my understanding that if two people died more or less simultaneously (as in the case of a bombing incident) and there was no way of knowing exactly who died first, the older person was presumed to have died first.
Doh! Your understanding is pretty much what I meant, only it says it
more generally.

For titles (which was all I was talking about) of course there is only
one heir so your objection of two heirs doesn't apply. However, in the
more general case, your statement makes sense and is more useful than
my formula.

Thanks
Adrian