Date   

Deleting an individual

James Pam
 

I have created a child, parents and grandparents in my project. I now realise that the grandparents are the childs parents and the 'parents' need to be deleted. How do I do this? Is it as simple as highlighting the individual and edit/delete? Will, what I thought were grandparents become the childs rightful parents? 


Re: Sourcing info from my research

Edward Sneithe
 

Great suggestions .

My goal is to write a story that will read very much like an historical novel. In a research report I would have the flexibility to include proof statements and include as much of a tree as needed to provide the evidence.

I am finding that writing a story that people may want to read is much more challenging for me than writing a research report or producing the standard type of ancestor or descendant reports.

Hopefully with your suggestions I can get past the citation and source issue.

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022, 02:25:52 AM EST, Kai Chandler <kchandler@...> wrote:


Jan, thanks for those very useful links. They are also very timely for me as I'm about to start writing a short research report!

Kai

On 01/02/2022 03:02, Jan Murphy wrote:

Edward --

In some of these cases, you seem to be askling about writing a citation when what you really need is a proof summary or proof statement. 

These links may be or interest:

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 1  

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 2 

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Documentation and the Research Report

Evidence Explained QuickLesson 17: The Evidence Analysis Process Map

Evidence Explained: EAM & GPS: Newsflash! Siblings, not Twins

Let's use your case #3 as an example.

"I want to say I have 8 ancestors that fought in the Revolution. This data only shows up in my tree." 

Where did this information come from? It's pretty likely that you didn't observe your ancestors' military service, so you must be taking someone else's word for it. Who (or what document) says so?  Your statement that you descent from those 8 patriots is just a nice story without a proof argument and sources to back it up.  The information you consulted to learn about their services are contained inside sources. You write citations about those sources.  You write a proof argument or summary to show how the information in those sources backs up your assertion that you are descended from 8 Patriots.





Re: Sourcing info from my research

Kai Chandler
 

Jan, thanks for those very useful links. They are also very timely for me as I'm about to start writing a short research report!

Kai

On 01/02/2022 03:02, Jan Murphy wrote:

Edward --

In some of these cases, you seem to be askling about writing a citation when what you really need is a proof summary or proof statement. 

These links may be or interest:

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 1  

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 2 

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Documentation and the Research Report

Evidence Explained QuickLesson 17: The Evidence Analysis Process Map

Evidence Explained: EAM & GPS: Newsflash! Siblings, not Twins

Let's use your case #3 as an example.

"I want to say I have 8 ancestors that fought in the Revolution. This data only shows up in my tree." 

Where did this information come from? It's pretty likely that you didn't observe your ancestors' military service, so you must be taking someone else's word for it. Who (or what document) says so?  Your statement that you descent from those 8 patriots is just a nice story without a proof argument and sources to back it up.  The information you consulted to learn about their services are contained inside sources. You write citations about those sources.  You write a proof argument or summary to show how the information in those sources backs up your assertion that you are descended from 8 Patriots.





Re: Sourcing info from my research

Jan Murphy
 

Edward --

In some of these cases, you seem to be askling about writing a citation when what you really need is a proof summary or proof statement. 

These links may be or interest:

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 1  

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Proof statements 2 

BCG website: Ten-Minute Methodology: Documentation and the Research Report

Evidence Explained QuickLesson 17: The Evidence Analysis Process Map

Evidence Explained: EAM & GPS: Newsflash! Siblings, not Twins

Let's use your case #3 as an example.

"I want to say I have 8 ancestors that fought in the Revolution. This data only shows up in my tree." 

Where did this information come from? It's pretty likely that you didn't observe your ancestors' military service, so you must be taking someone else's word for it. Who (or what document) says so?  Your statement that you descent from those 8 patriots is just a nice story without a proof argument and sources to back it up.  The information you consulted to learn about their services are contained inside sources. You write citations about those sources.  You write a proof argument or summary to show how the information in those sources backs up your assertion that you are descended from 8 Patriots.





Re: No Death Event

BillH
 

I'm not sure 100 a good number to use.  People are living a lot longer.  I have at least 10 people in my tree who lived to be over 100.  My wife's grandmother died about 10 years ago and she was a week shy of her 111th birthday.

Bill

On Jan 31, 2022 at 11:36 am, joan Chopping wrote:

Hi
Not sure if this helps but I input "Unknown" in the death date when I can't find one; obviously it is only input when I am sure ie over 100 years.  It is shown as a line in the Individual Records window.
Hope this helps.


Re: No Death Event

joan Chopping
 

Hi
Not sure if this helps but I input "Unknown" in the death date when I can't find one; obviously it is only input when I am sure ie over 100 years.  It is shown as a line in the Individual Records window.
Hope this helps.


Re: No Death Event

@Lincsman
 

Thanks every one for your views, I only put a range date if I know they have died, say for example between census', I will then try to find the quarter in the bmd records but if I can't do that, I will use between and then and so and so. I record burial of cremated remains as a burial but with a note.
i just hate seeing those lists with a start but no end date as it were :-)


Re: No Death Event

BillH
 

In those cases I also create a death event, I just leave the date blank or as Adrian suggested I might put a before date.  I just don't try to estimate the year.

Bill

On Jan 31, 2022 at 03:03 am, Mike Tate wrote:

IMO as a general rule, it is better to have a Death Event than not for people who you know must have died.

That is because some products will consider the person as still living if there is no Death Event, even if they would be extremely old.

It is typically possible to use a range Date such as Before or After or Between dates from other facts, which may be better than an estimated Date.

 

The Export Gedcom File plugin, when exporting to FT DNA, synthesises missing Birth and Death events from Baptism, Christening, Burial & Cremation events, etc.

 

Mike Tate

 



Re: Sourcing info from my research

Edward Sneithe
 

Thanks Mike and Adrian,

I am doing a story on a single family in my tree. They are worthy of special consideration and I have a good deal of documentation on them.  Since one child will go on and fight in the Civil War I thought it would be nice to show that many of his ancestors fought in the Revolutionary war.

Adrian - your thought of a partial chart may work.. I can  provide a single line chart from my family directly back to the Rev War ancestors.

I am always trying to be extra careful bout what I release and having sources for everything. I have found way too much information across many platforms that is incorrect and totally unsourced making that all fiction in my opinion.

Thanks again I think I have a way forward.

On Sunday, January 30, 2022, 03:31:50 PM EST, Adrian Bruce <abruce6155@...> wrote:


I would agree with Mike - the crucial bits are the sourcing and citations for the bits that go together to make up the fact that X is the GG-uncle (or whatever) of Y, not the end result. 

That takes me into considering what is necessary to deal with X being the GG-uncle of Y. If it was me, since I believe that a picture is worth a thousand words, I'd include a fragment of a chart showing that relationship near to the text talking about X and Y - I presume that we're talking about some document to contain all this. If I included such a chart, would I think that I needed to document and source the intermediate links between X and Y? No - I think that I'm assuming that there is some reason for skipping over the intermediate generations - such as X being a worthy subject in his own right. If, on the other hand, you're dealing with a controversial ancestry, then the answer is different - but that doesn't sound like your (theoretical) topic.  

It's vital to have all this sourced and cited in your database. But what you actually need to print will depend very much on your topic(s) and how much you value clarity and ease of reading.

I'd just throw 2 rules of thumb in - Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. And... You don't need to provide a citation for the sky being blue (apparently that is a Wikipedia advice topic).

Also - others are highly likely to disagree with me on topics! 

Adrian


Re: No Death Event

Mike Tate
 

IMO as a general rule, it is better to have a Death Event than not for people who you know must have died.

That is because some products will consider the person as still living if there is no Death Event, even if they would be extremely old.

It is typically possible to use a range Date such as Before or After or Between dates from other facts, which may be better than an estimated Date.

 

The Export Gedcom File plugin, when exporting to FT DNA, synthesises missing Birth and Death events from Baptism, Christening, Burial & Cremation events, etc.

 

Mike Tate

 


Re: No Death Event

John Elvin
 

If you know that they died before a certain date (e.g. wife shown as widow on a census), is there any merit in using the Before option on the range tab of the date entry pop-up to reduce the number of individuals with no death date? Perhaps also for those with no other evidence set to before their hundredth birthday?


Re: No Death Event

Adrian Bruce
 

Re Bill's experience with ashes being interred years after burial. That's a good argument against a general use of deaths estimated from "burial" date. I'd only say that in the context of the UK, cremations came in well after the start of civil registration of vital events, so I'll have the index date (quarter usually) to compare against any "burial" as a cross check. 

I've put burial in quotes above because I usually use a custom event for the interment of the ashes, rather than the standard burial event. FH has various estimates built in and IIRC, using burial as a proxy for a missing death, is one of them. If the burial event is used for interment of ashes, then this carries the risk of Bill's error - though how material that is for the estimates made, I'm not sure. My use of a custom event for the interment avoids that risk, though whether that was deliberate on my part or a lucky accident, I'm not sure! 

Adrian


Re: No Death Event

BillH
 

I do not make estimates for peoples deaths because in some cases they can be completely wrong.

I have numerous relatives who were not buried until many years (as many as 21 years) after they died.  They were cremated and sat on an urn in their surviving spouses homes until both were buried after the surviving spouses deaths. 

I also have several who were buried more than once.  They were moved for various reasons.  If I had had only the latter burial date and based the death date on that, I would have been way off.  In one case the person was moved 75 years after their original burial.

Bill


Re: No Death Event

Adrian Bruce
 

The only time that I concoct a death date is when I have indirect evidence for it, such as a burial, when I'll estimate a death date based on the burial date minus - waves hand and thinks of a number. In such a case, the death is marked as Estimated and also given a note about how the estimate was arrived at. Other concoctions come from people recorded as being widowed in one census, in which case the death date for their partner is "Before nnnn" - where nnnn is the census date. Yes, they might be telling untruths but that applies to anything. 

But aside from those, I've never had the need to get something into a Death Date. Perhaps oddly, I do tend to be a bit more persistent in inserting a Birth date, even including estimates based on date of birth of a mother's last known child. Possibly having the birth and using FH's estimating techniques means I don't need Death Dates? 

Adrian


Re: No Death Event

@Lincsman
 

Yes, to be honest, that is my take on it too, I have no plans to insert a fake event, but I will start to find as many as I can, I am retired now so have more time to research them properly. I just wondered how others face this problem.


Re: No Death Event

Trevor Rix
 

In my opinion it's not a good idea to fake death dates. I leave mine blank. In most cases I do have burial dates. Unfortunately some websites do not recognise burial dates, such as FTDNA trees, which is not helpful.


No Death Event

@Lincsman
 

Good Evening,

I have a few hundred individuals in my file with no death recorded, how do other people handle this?
If you do not have a date of death, do you leave it blank or input an estimated death date?  Most of the people in my file missing a death event will be pre BMD records or where I have been too lazy to search for a death, concentrating more on direct ancestors rather that their siblings :-)
Secondly, should I decide to create an estimated death date, is there an easy way to do this with a plugin? I have searched through the store and I cannot see anything.

Cheers, and thanks for taking the time to read this.

Regards,

Dave


Re: Sourcing info from my research

Adrian Bruce
 

I would agree with Mike - the crucial bits are the sourcing and citations for the bits that go together to make up the fact that X is the GG-uncle (or whatever) of Y, not the end result. 

That takes me into considering what is necessary to deal with X being the GG-uncle of Y. If it was me, since I believe that a picture is worth a thousand words, I'd include a fragment of a chart showing that relationship near to the text talking about X and Y - I presume that we're talking about some document to contain all this. If I included such a chart, would I think that I needed to document and source the intermediate links between X and Y? No - I think that I'm assuming that there is some reason for skipping over the intermediate generations - such as X being a worthy subject in his own right. If, on the other hand, you're dealing with a controversial ancestry, then the answer is different - but that doesn't sound like your (theoretical) topic.  

It's vital to have all this sourced and cited in your database. But what you actually need to print will depend very much on your topic(s) and how much you value clarity and ease of reading.

I'd just throw 2 rules of thumb in - Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. And... You don't need to provide a citation for the sky being blue (apparently that is a Wikipedia advice topic).

Also - others are highly likely to disagree with me on topics! 

Adrian


Re: Sourcing info from my research

Mike Tate
 

None of those fragments of information are sources nor do they need specific citations.

They are ‘facts’ derived from several other source citations.

e.g.

The relationship between George and Fred is derived from Source Citations that give the parent-child relationship over several generations in such as Birth, Marriage & Census documents. Using your tree as a source is only saying the same thing, that various Source documents together justify the family tree.

 

Similarly, the fact that Tom is the fourth child comes from his sibling’s Birth citations that provide their Date of Birth, and that determines the birth order.

 

The 8 ancestors each have a citation related to the Revolution. No more citations are necessary.

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 30 January 2022 18:21
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Sourcing info from my research

 

I have a couple of instances that I’m not sure how to provide citations.

1.        If I have a complete tree in FH well documented but in writing a report I want to say George, Fred’s Gr Gr Uncle. Nowhere, except FH, does that generation designation exist. How do I source information in my own tree as displayed by FH?

2.       Can I use my own genealogical tree as a source?

3.       I want to say I have 8 ancestors that fought in the Revolution. This data only shows up in my tree.

4.       If I want to say the fourth child was Tom, how do I source that? Sometimes a birth record will record which number of child this is but beyond that it comes from my research and my tree>


Sourcing info from my research

Edward Sneithe
 

I have a couple of instances that I’m not sure how to provide citations.

1.        If I have a complete tree in FH well documented but in writing a report I want to say George, Fred’s Gr Gr Uncle. Nowhere, except FH, does that generation designation exist. How do I source information in my own tree as displayed by FH?

2.       Can I use my own genealogical tree as a source?

3.       I want to say I have 8 ancestors that fought in the Revolution. This data only shows up in my tree.

4.       If I want to say the fourth child was Tom, how do I source that? Sometimes a birth record will record which number of child this is but beyond that it comes from my research and my tree>

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