Date   

Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

Peter Rowley
 

And the PDF arrives much quicker than the paper copy

Peter


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

stephen.challis@...
 

Very many thanks, Mike and John.

 

Stephen

 

 

Stephen Challis

Please reply to Stephen.Challis@...

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of John James
Sent: 20 February 2021 19:00
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Ordered online from the GRO, a PDF version is £7, but paper copies are £11.

 

John


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

John James
 

Ordered online from the GRO, a PDF version is £7, but paper copies are £11.

John


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

Mike Tate
 

Try https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

You will need to create an account but that also lest you search the GRO Birth & Death Index.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of stephen.challis@...
Sent: 20 February 2021 18:14
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Thanks for posting this, John. How can I get a birth certificate for £7? I’ve only ever seen them for £11, and the price is £11 today, as far as I can see (at https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate ). What’s your secret?

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

 

Stephen Challis

Please reply to Stephen.Challis@...

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of John Hanson
Sent: 19 February 2021 15:02
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Colin

Unfortunately not what this list is really for as it is for issues with the software or the way it works

 

However having looked at the family on the 1911 and checked the birth registrations both in FreeBMD and the GRO’s own indexes both Olive and Percy were registered as BROWNING with a mothers maiden name of APPS. Why people changed their surnames is a mystery and providing that it was not with the intention of de-frauding someone there is nothing wrong

 

You may never find the solution but I would suggest that getting the birth certificate of either Olive or Percy might be a good start. Order a PDF copy via the GRO website and get one for £7 rather than the usual £11

 

Regards
John Hanson - researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust - https://www.halsted.org.uk
Research website - https://www.halstedresearch.org.uk

2021 Family History Conference - https://www.elizabethanancestors.org.uk

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of colin.brook@...
Sent: 19 February 2021 13:05
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

stephen.challis@...
 

Thanks for posting this, John. How can I get a birth certificate for £7? I’ve only ever seen them for £11, and the price is £11 today, as far as I can see (at https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate ). What’s your secret?

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

 

Stephen Challis

Please reply to Stephen.Challis@...

 

From: family-historian@groups.io [mailto:family-historian@groups.io] On Behalf Of John Hanson
Sent: 19 February 2021 15:02
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Colin

Unfortunately not what this list is really for as it is for issues with the software or the way it works

 

However having looked at the family on the 1911 and checked the birth registrations both in FreeBMD and the GRO’s own indexes both Olive and Percy were registered as BROWNING with a mothers maiden name of APPS. Why people changed their surnames is a mystery and providing that it was not with the intention of de-frauding someone there is nothing wrong

 

You may never find the solution but I would suggest that getting the birth certificate of either Olive or Percy might be a good start. Order a PDF copy via the GRO website and get one for £7 rather than the usual £11

 

Regards
John Hanson - researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust - https://www.halsted.org.uk
Research website - https://www.halstedresearch.org.uk

2021 Family History Conference - https://www.elizabethanancestors.org.uk

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of colin.brook@...
Sent: 19 February 2021 13:05
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Re: Will tab from FHUG

Mike Tate
 

Hi Edward,

Use the Property Box cog Menu > Customize Property Box and click Help for advice.

The Property Box for any type of record can be customized.

However, unlike other Expressions, the fields can only use data references within the record.

They cannot link to other records nor use functions. I have never understood why they are so restricted.

 

BTW: When talking about things such as Probate and Will (also Birth, Marriage, Death, Census) please use the term ‘fact’.

In FH/GEDCOM terms ‘records’ are only Individuals, Families, Sources, Repositories, Media, Places, etc, listed as tabs in the ‘Records Window’.

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 19 February 2021 23:23
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Will tab from FHUG

 

Mike,

I had noticed that all the references were from quite a while ago but thought I would look at this as a perhaps easier way to enter data. I had already created  a customized probate record and a will record. I also have been using shared facts and roles to create the output that  I want. 

From what you say the Wills tab is obsolete? I will go back to my own customization. 

Just a question. How was that interface created? And can others create similar interfaces?


Re: Adding Pools Column to Individuals records Window

David Wilkinson
 


In the records window right click on the heading row, select Configure Columns, go to the bottom of the list and select <Other...> , click the right pointing arrow to move it into the right hand window, select it, click edit and you can enter a heading and the expression in the field Expression.

Hope that helps.

David Wilkinson

On 20/02/2021 07:50, johnfirr via groups.io wrote:
Real quick one as I know this is simple but cant quite work it out.

The concept of pools was discussed in an earlier thread but I cant quite find the answer.

I want to add a column to my individuals list in the records window that will show what pool they are in.

I know you need to use the function =RealtionPool () but I don't know where or how you type this in?

If I go to configure columns option it doesn't list Pools as an option and I cant find a box to type in the custom query function above.
What am I missing?
regards
John

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Adding Pools Column to Individuals records Window

Trevor Rix
 

In the Records Window, right click a Column header > Configure Columns > scroll down to the bottom of the left pane and double click Other > enter Pool in the first box > enter =RelationPool() in the second box > select Pool in the right pane and use the up and down arrows to position the Pool column to where you would like it > OK.


Adding Pools Column to Individuals records Window

johnfirr@...
 

Real quick one as I know this is simple but cant quite work it out.

The concept of pools was discussed in an earlier thread but I cant quite find the answer.

I want to add a column to my individuals list in the records window that will show what pool they are in.

I know you need to use the function =RealtionPool () but I don't know where or how you type this in?

If I go to configure columns option it doesn't list Pools as an option and I cant find a box to type in the custom query function above.
What am I missing?
regards
John


Re: Will tab from FHUG

Edward Sneithe
 

Mike,

I had noticed that all the references were from quite a while ago but thought I would look at this as a perhaps easier way to enter data. I had already created  a customized probate record and a will record. I also have been using shared facts and roles to create the output that  I want. 

From what you say the Wills tab is obsolete? I will go back to my own customization. 

Just a question. How was that interface created? And can others create similar interfaces?


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

colin.brook@...
 

Hello again; thanks for your replies so far. I had realised that the researching side of the topic was really outside the scope of this newsgroup - my primary purpose here was to find out about recording with FH7. I have good input thanks and thanks too for those who suggested that I had already amassed enough info to be very sure that the Browning Family of 1901 in Maidstone became the Brown Family of 1911 in Maldon. Until one of my famiy proves otherwise I'm going ahead on that basis. Thanks again. Colin


Re: Will tab from FHUG

Mike Tate
 

Hi Edward,

Did you notice the tab was designed about 10 years ago?

I suspect it was intended just to display the information rather than enter the facts.

You can either add the dates directly to the facts, or customize the tab to include fact dates.

 

Some items in the Downloads are more illustrative of what is feasible than a finished product.

 

The beneficiaries in the Notes can be included in Narrative reports by suitable customization.

 

That Wills tab design dates from before shared Fact Witnesses were added to FH V6 in 2014.

I would imagine that nowadays most users would use Will/Probate standard facts with Fact Witnesses for Executor, Beneficiary & Witness roles.

To show all those on a Wills/Probate tab would require a major redesign.

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Edward Sneithe via groups.io
Sent: 19 February 2021 15:26
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Will tab from FHUG

 

I read with interest the ability to customize the property Box with new tabs. I found on FHUG a Wills tab and this is what I found (All from the FHUG Download Type: Property Box Tabs):
Downloaded Enhanced Death and Burial Fact set
Downloaded Wills (property Box Tab)

Filling in the data I get the following:

Under facts:
Will facts Administrator ok
First executor no date

Value of estate no date
First occupation no date

Second executor no date
Probate fact ok
Beneficiaries are in the Notes Tab but do not show on a narrative report.

Why no dates on four facts? They all seem to track with the administrator fact but how with no dates? The sequence of facts may not be what is being created. A value may be created many months after the probate process has started. 


Will tab from FHUG

Edward Sneithe
 

I read with interest the ability to customize the property Box with new tabs. I found on FHUG a Wills tab and this is what I found (All from the FHUG Download Type: Property Box Tabs):
Downloaded Enhanced Death and Burial Fact set
Downloaded Wills (property Box Tab)

Filling in the data I get the following:

Under facts:
Will facts Administrator ok
First executor no date
Value of estate no date
First occupation no date
Second executor no date
Probate fact ok
Beneficiaries are in the Notes Tab but do not show on a narrative report.

Why no dates on four facts? They all seem to track with the administrator fact but how with no dates? The sequence of facts may not be what is being created. A value may be created many months after the probate process has started. 


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

Jenny Cochrane
 

I would approach this by gathering as many separate pieces of evidence as you can from BMD / census / electoral role etc to figure out the chain of events

I think I have the right person who was christened Olive Mabel Grace BROWNING on 26 Aug 1888 in Maidstone. The family were also BROWNING in the 1891 census at 5 Waterloo Rd, Maidstone. Her sisters Evelyn and Gertrude were also Browning.

So... at some point between 1901 and 1911 the family changed county and name as Olive was married as Brown. Why - who knows, but it peaks my curiosity. Did they want to disappear and hence take on the anonymous Brown name? Did people assume their name was Brown and they got tired of correcting? Was the original name Brown - How was Thomas baptised and married? It was clearly not just a slip of the pen on the 1911 census.

Is there anybody still alive that could shed light?

There are several ways you could treat the name in FH depending on what you want to see in the property box.

- You could leave as Browning and add Brown in the "more +" option 
- or - do the same but with Brown as the main name
- Input the name as Brown(ing)  
- Input the name as "Brown or Browning"


Hope this helps.

Jenny

On Friday, 19 February 2021, 14:08:44 GMT, colin.brook@... <colin.brook@...> wrote:


Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

Lorna Craig
 

Hi Colin,

I think you already have enough evidence that they are the same family.  In fact the evidence is more compelling if you go back to the 1891 census.  In 1891 the birthplaces were recorded as:

Thomas - Kingsdown, Kent

Elizabeth - Marden, Kent

Olive M - Maidstone, Kent

Tom (Percy Tom) - Maidstone, Kent.

These exactly match the birthplaces recorded for those four in 1911.  (You said that the 1911 census shows they were all born in Chatham, Rochester but looking at the image I see that is not the case.  I'm not sure where you saw Chatham mentioned as a birthplace.)   So it is only the birthplaces in the 1901 census which are slightly out of line for Thomas and Olive.

To try to pin down the date of the move and/or change of surname you could follow up some of their other children (Evelyn M, Gertrude L, William A and Percy Tom) to see whether, and when, they married and what surname they used when they married.

As for why they changed their name it might be impossible to discover.  (Unless perhaps one of them was involved in some socially undesirable or criminal activity which they wanted to leave behind?)

If you are satisfied that the name change was permanent you could create a custom fact for 'Name change' for each individual you believe used the new name, with a date of 'between 1901 and 1911' and add a note to the fact explaining your evidence.  The new name can be recorded as an alternative name by clicking the 'more...' button next to the primary name in the Property box.

Lorna

On 19/02/2021 13:04, colin.brook@... wrote:
Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have. I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913. In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received. Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin
_.


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

John Hanson
 

Colin

Unfortunately not what this list is really for as it is for issues with the software or the way it works

 

However having looked at the family on the 1911 and checked the birth registrations both in FreeBMD and the GRO’s own indexes both Olive and Percy were registered as BROWNING with a mothers maiden name of APPS. Why people changed their surnames is a mystery and providing that it was not with the intention of de-frauding someone there is nothing wrong

 

You may never find the solution but I would suggest that getting the birth certificate of either Olive or Percy might be a good start. Order a PDF copy via the GRO website and get one for £7 rather than the usual £11

 

Regards
John Hanson - researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust - https://www.halsted.org.uk
Research website - https://www.halstedresearch.org.uk

2021 Family History Conference - https://www.elizabethanancestors.org.uk

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of colin.brook@...
Sent: 19 February 2021 13:05
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Re: Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

Mike Tate
 

Welcome Colin,

Strictly speaking this a Family Historian product forum run by Calico Pie so research questions are a little off beam.

The FHUG website Forums include one dedicated to such research questions where other users are willing to help.

https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/

 

However, I suggest you pursue your research further. The family should appear together in the 1891 Census.

You should also find Birth and Marriage records for everyone in the family.

Together those records will clarify the family surname.

I suspect the 1901 Census entry is just a mistake by the enumerator who misheard the surname.

If so there is no name change and your Source record for the 1901 Census will just need a Note to identify the mistake and your reasons why.

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of colin.brook@...
Sent: 19 February 2021 13:05
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

 

Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Re: Update to FH7 - lost my umlauts

Mike Tate
 

Hi Anne-Marie,

FH V5 uses ANSI character encoding that only supports a limited subset of accented characters.

FH V6 & V7 use full Unicode UTF-8 character encoding that supports all accented and foreign characters and symbols.

It would seem that the FH translation from ANSI to UTF-8 is not being performed correctly.

I suggest you report the problem to Calico Pie via their support ticket system:

http://www.calico-pie.com/osticket/open.php

 

Mike Tate

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Anne-Marie R
Sent: 19 February 2021 05:05
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Update to FH7 - lost my umlauts

 

Hi all,
I've just updated from V5 to V7 and found that all my accented etc European characters have been replaced by the generic character error symbol. I did replace V5 with a full V7 version,not the upgrade version. 
I've opened the before/after GEDCOM files with notepad++ to confirm that those characters have been lost in the actual file rather than a display problem.
I can retype in all those characters one-by-one but I'd rather not. Any suggestions?

This upgrade was done on my laptop copy as a test, which I admit is running on Win10 in VMWare on a Mac, but V5 was encoded OK. Any suggestions on how to prevent this happening when I update the main copy?

Thanks for any suggestions, Anne-Marie


Researching and documenting apparent change of Family Surname

colin.brook@...
 

Hello, although I've used Family Historian for a number of years now I haven't previously joined this support group. I would appreciate help with a current problem I have.

I'm particularly interested in help with Olive BROWN; in the 1911 Census she is shown to be living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth BROWN and her brother Percy T(om) BROWN at 23 Cromwell Lane, Maldon. She subsequently married Ernest Wilberforce TUNMER (also of Maldon) on Christmas Day 1913.
In the 1911 Census the whole BROWN family were shown to have been born in the Chatham, Rochester, Maidstone area of Kent. In the 1901 Census there is however no sign of the BROWN family in either Maldon, Essex or Maidstone, Kent. There is however an otherwise identical family with the surname BROWNING living at 103 Rochester Avenue, Rochester and Chatham with 'correct' ages and birthplaces. So, my big current challenge is to find some record of the apparent migration and renaming of this BROWNING family in Maidstone in 1901 to become the BROWN family of Maldon by 1911. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Assuming that I'm correct in thinking these two families are one and the same what is the best way of handling this Surname change in Family Historian?

Looking forward to any advice about solving and documenting this mystery.

Colin


Update to FH7 - lost my umlauts

Anne-Marie R
 

Hi all,
I've just updated from V5 to V7 and found that all my accented etc European characters have been replaced by the generic character error symbol. I did replace V5 with a full V7 version,not the upgrade version. 
I've opened the before/after GEDCOM files with notepad++ to confirm that those characters have been lost in the actual file rather than a display problem.
I can retype in all those characters one-by-one but I'd rather not. Any suggestions?

This upgrade was done on my laptop copy as a test, which I admit is running on Win10 in VMWare on a Mac, but V5 was encoded OK. Any suggestions on how to prevent this happening when I update the main copy?

Thanks for any suggestions, Anne-Marie

2581 - 2600 of 5673