The Rae’s of Annan , Kirkpatrick Fleming etc


 

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 


Terence Brown
 

Hi Chris,
You may already have this but there are at least 3 graves of the Vivers family in Annan Old Burial Ground, one of which includes Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred. They are all listed in the Dumfries and Galloway FHS booklet ANNAN (TOWN HALL) OLD BURIAL GROUND MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS. It is available in their online shop at www.dgfhs.org.uk
Regards,
Terry Brown


 


Thank you Terry il have more queries probably 

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On Sunday, August 9, 2020, 6:16 pm, Terence Brown <terry.brown@...> wrote:

Hi Chris,
You may already have this but there are at least 3 graves of the Vivers family in Annan Old Burial Ground, one of which includes Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred. They are all listed in the Dumfries and Galloway FHS booklet ANNAN (TOWN HALL) OLD BURIAL GROUND MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS. It is available in their online shop at www.dgfhs.org.uk
Regards,
Terry Brown


Eric Faulds
 

Chris,

I also have Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred in my tree. I am descended through their daughter Mary.

I’ve been doing a bit more research of the Vivers line and found it very confusing with some odd anomalies.

I had not identified a daughter Ann who seems to be recorded as Bevers in many cases. This seems a plausible spelling variation which seems to be particularly common with the name Vivers. However she is not mentioned in any of the memorial stones in Annan whereas the other family members are. Can you give me the source of the birth year?

There is a birth record of a William Rae on 26/06/1782 in Cummertrees with parents John Rae and Ann Bevers yet the marriage of John Rae and Ann Bevers is not until 5/08/1786. It is not common, in the research I have done, to have both parents named in an illegitimate birth. It is more usual for the couple to get married quickly.
There is another William born to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 5/12/1788 with another record on 14/12/1788 which looks like it would be the christening but this time, just a week later, the mother name is spelled Vivers.
A similar oddity occurs with the birth of Elizabeth to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 9/8/1791 and a Betty Rae to John Rae and Ann Vivers on 21/8/1791. I have not downloaded the birth records to investigate further.
I wonder if Ann Bevers and Ann Vivers are indeed the same person. Probably yes but I think it merits further investigation. The other explanation is sloppy record keeping in Cummertrees.

regards

Eric Faulds.



However I presume that she is their daughter since I have not found any other Vivers in the area. 

On 8 Aug 2020, at 10:59, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 


 


Eric it is indeed a coincidence Ann Vivers and John Rae’s son William Rae is one of several Williams born the same month same name same or similar parents names same place . It is too coincidental for me so yes I do think Ann Bevers is Ann Vivers I’m sure I saw another entry Vivres. It wasfamily search that linked Ann Vivers too Richard and Elizabeth I have not found an OPR . Furthermore I have still to check the marriage record I thought it was the wrong person . I can give you though starting from my great great grandfather Timothy Rae his lineage to his father John Rae son of William Rae . I have Johns baptism along with his sisters , I also have John marriage entry which names his parents and his father William death which names his parents . I also have the Bevers Vivers Vivres William Rae birth entries I will send it ASAP Chris 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Friday, August 14, 2020, 12:28 am, Eric Faulds <eric@...> wrote:

Chris,

I also have Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred in my tree. I am descended through their daughter Mary.

I’ve been doing a bit more research of the Vivers line and found it very confusing with some odd anomalies.

I had not identified a daughter Ann who seems to be recorded as Bevers in many cases. This seems a plausible spelling variation which seems to be particularly common with the name Vivers. However she is not mentioned in any of the memorial stones in Annan whereas the other family members are. Can you give me the source of the birth year?

There is a birth record of a William Rae on 26/06/1782 in Cummertrees with parents John Rae and Ann Bevers yet the marriage of John Rae and Ann Bevers is not until 5/08/1786. It is not common, in the research I have done, to have both parents named in an illegitimate birth. It is more usual for the couple to get married quickly.
There is another William born to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 5/12/1788 with another record on 14/12/1788 which looks like it would be the christening but this time, just a week later, the mother name is spelled Vivers.
A similar oddity occurs with the birth of Elizabeth to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 9/8/1791 and a Betty Rae to John Rae and Ann Vivers on 21/8/1791. I have not downloaded the birth records to investigate further.
I wonder if Ann Bevers and Ann Vivers are indeed the same person. Probably yes but I think it merits further investigation. The other explanation is sloppy record keeping in Cummertrees.

regards

Eric Faulds.



However I presume that she is their daughter since I have not found any other Vivers in the area. 

On 8 Aug 2020, at 10:59, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 


 


Hi Eric here is all the documents I have so far 
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Inline image


Inline image

Inline image

Inline image



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Friday, August 14, 2020, 12:28 am, Eric Faulds <eric@...> wrote:

Chris,

I also have Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred in my tree. I am descended through their daughter Mary.

I’ve been doing a bit more research of the Vivers line and found it very confusing with some odd anomalies.

I had not identified a daughter Ann who seems to be recorded as Bevers in many cases. This seems a plausible spelling variation which seems to be particularly common with the name Vivers. However she is not mentioned in any of the memorial stones in Annan whereas the other family members are. Can you give me the source of the birth year?

There is a birth record of a William Rae on 26/06/1782 in Cummertrees with parents John Rae and Ann Bevers yet the marriage of John Rae and Ann Bevers is not until 5/08/1786. It is not common, in the research I have done, to have both parents named in an illegitimate birth. It is more usual for the couple to get married quickly.
There is another William born to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 5/12/1788 with another record on 14/12/1788 which looks like it would be the christening but this time, just a week later, the mother name is spelled Vivers.
A similar oddity occurs with the birth of Elizabeth to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 9/8/1791 and a Betty Rae to John Rae and Ann Vivers on 21/8/1791. I have not downloaded the birth records to investigate further.
I wonder if Ann Bevers and Ann Vivers are indeed the same person. Probably yes but I think it merits further investigation. The other explanation is sloppy record keeping in Cummertrees.

regards

Eric Faulds.



However I presume that she is their daughter since I have not found any other Vivers in the area. 

On 8 Aug 2020, at 10:59, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 


Eric Faulds
 

Chris,

Thanks for the documents. The births records clearly show that Bevers and Vivers are one and the same with the two sets of records matching. The other point of note is that Ann Vivers had an illegitimate child William Bevers born 1782. Presumably this William died  before the birth of William Rae in 1788.

regards

Eric.


On 16 Aug 2020, at 19:27, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:


Hi Eric here is all the documents I have so far 
<BE7AE182-8885-49BC-B057-6CBEF5B77F4F.jpeg>

<345016F9-C512-4D1D-AF5B-F53EBA2864E3.jpeg>

<8A77FFDA-49E8-49CE-B03C-B80775EC024B.jpeg>

<2F4934D8-BEF9-47D1-A4A4-57BECDEB10EE.jpeg>


<C4028BDD-7B41-488B-AFC8-5E5435DF72D7.jpeg>

<4F629615-9595-4734-869F-745E31707821.jpeg>

<63A6A694-8812-40C6-8D4E-D1DC9933E6E6.jpeg>



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Friday, August 14, 2020, 12:28 am, Eric Faulds <eric@...> wrote:

Chris,

I also have Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred in my tree. I am descended through their daughter Mary.

I’ve been doing a bit more research of the Vivers line and found it very confusing with some odd anomalies.

I had not identified a daughter Ann who seems to be recorded as Bevers in many cases. This seems a plausible spelling variation which seems to be particularly common with the name Vivers. However she is not mentioned in any of the memorial stones in Annan whereas the other family members are. Can you give me the source of the birth year?

There is a birth record of a William Rae on 26/06/1782 in Cummertrees with parents John Rae and Ann Bevers yet the marriage of John Rae and Ann Bevers is not until 5/08/1786. It is not common, in the research I have done, to have both parents named in an illegitimate birth. It is more usual for the couple to get married quickly.
There is another William born to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 5/12/1788 with another record on 14/12/1788 which looks like it would be the christening but this time, just a week later, the mother name is spelled Vivers.
A similar oddity occurs with the birth of Elizabeth to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 9/8/1791 and a Betty Rae to John Rae and Ann Vivers on 21/8/1791. I have not downloaded the birth records to investigate further.
I wonder if Ann Bevers and Ann Vivers are indeed the same person. Probably yes but I think it merits further investigation. The other explanation is sloppy record keeping in Cummertrees.

regards

Eric Faulds.



However I presume that she is their daughter since I have not found any other Vivers in the area. 

On 8 Aug 2020, at 10:59, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 

<BE7AE182-8885-49BC-B057-6CBEF5B77F4F.jpeg><345016F9-C512-4D1D-AF5B-F53EBA2864E3.jpeg><8A77FFDA-49E8-49CE-B03C-B80775EC024B.jpeg><2F4934D8-BEF9-47D1-A4A4-57BECDEB10EE.jpeg><C4028BDD-7B41-488B-AFC8-5E5435DF72D7.jpeg><4F629615-9595-4734-869F-745E31707821.jpeg><63A6A694-8812-40C6-8D4E-D1DC9933E6E6.jpeg>


 


Thanks Eric do you think my next step should be to download the certificates from Scotland’s People for Ann Bevers ie Vivers marriage 1786 in Cummertrees to John Rae and try and obtain her OPR birth . Every time I searched for Ann Vivers I couldnt find anything but did see Richard Vivers birth 1757 parents Richard Vivers Sr and Elizabeth Kindred . So you think Ann Vivers is Bevers I thought so too . I will search Ann Bevers and see what I can find seems the recording at Cummertrees was rather sloppy . If Ann Vivers not on any Annan old burial ground inscriptions it could just be she is buried elsewhere . It’s interesting though because I’m not sure where her and her husband John Rae’s graves are or her son William Rae and his wife Elizabeth Alexander or Brown . Plus her grandson John Rae is not buried with his wife Margaret Graham  my 3 x great grandparents but Margaret buried Alone with her son Timothy Rae my 2 x great grandfather at Annan Cemetery. Timothy son my great grandfather William George Rae and my great grandmother Mary Irving Johnstone buried at Brydekirk. Thanks Chris keep In touch

On Monday, August 17, 2020, 12:59 pm, Eric Faulds <eric@...> wrote:

Chris,

Thanks for the documents. The births records clearly show that Bevers and Vivers are one and the same with the two sets of records matching. The other point of note is that Ann Vivers had an illegitimate child William Bevers born 1782. Presumably this William died  before the birth of William Rae in 1788.

regards

Eric.


On 16 Aug 2020, at 19:27, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:


Hi Eric here is all the documents I have so far 
<BE7AE182-8885-49BC-B057-6CBEF5B77F4F.jpeg>

<345016F9-C512-4D1D-AF5B-F53EBA2864E3.jpeg>

<8A77FFDA-49E8-49CE-B03C-B80775EC024B.jpeg>

<2F4934D8-BEF9-47D1-A4A4-57BECDEB10EE.jpeg>


<C4028BDD-7B41-488B-AFC8-5E5435DF72D7.jpeg>

<4F629615-9595-4734-869F-745E31707821.jpeg>

<63A6A694-8812-40C6-8D4E-D1DC9933E6E6.jpeg>



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Friday, August 14, 2020, 12:28 am, Eric Faulds <eric@...> wrote:

Chris,

I also have Richard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred in my tree. I am descended through their daughter Mary.

I’ve been doing a bit more research of the Vivers line and found it very confusing with some odd anomalies.

I had not identified a daughter Ann who seems to be recorded as Bevers in many cases. This seems a plausible spelling variation which seems to be particularly common with the name Vivers. However she is not mentioned in any of the memorial stones in Annan whereas the other family members are. Can you give me the source of the birth year?

There is a birth record of a William Rae on 26/06/1782 in Cummertrees with parents John Rae and Ann Bevers yet the marriage of John Rae and Ann Bevers is not until 5/08/1786. It is not common, in the research I have done, to have both parents named in an illegitimate birth. It is more usual for the couple to get married quickly.
There is another William born to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 5/12/1788 with another record on 14/12/1788 which looks like it would be the christening but this time, just a week later, the mother name is spelled Vivers.
A similar oddity occurs with the birth of Elizabeth to John Rae and Ann Bevers on 9/8/1791 and a Betty Rae to John Rae and Ann Vivers on 21/8/1791. I have not downloaded the birth records to investigate further.
I wonder if Ann Bevers and Ann Vivers are indeed the same person. Probably yes but I think it merits further investigation. The other explanation is sloppy record keeping in Cummertrees.

regards

Eric Faulds.



However I presume that she is their daughter since I have not found any other Vivers in the area. 

On 8 Aug 2020, at 10:59, Chris Earl via groups.io <christopherearl52@...> wrote:

I am seeking out burials for ancestors of mine . I already have my great great grandfather Timothy Rae 1858 Annan 1916 Carlisle buried in Annan Cemetery with his mother Margaret Graham 1825 Stapleton Cumberland England 1885 Dumfries . However I have traced the Rae line further back Timothy’s father John Rae a Tilemaker was born in 1823 Cummertrees and seemed to have died in 1875 in Hoddom don’t know where he was buried but I presume with his parents William Rae 1788 Cummertrees 1868 Howgill Bridge Annan Elizabeth Alexander surname originally Brown as born out of wedlock b circa 1792 I think Minigaff Kirkcudbrightshire or Buittle d before 1856 Howgill Annan . William parents were John Rae and Anne Vivers , Ann Vivers was the daughter of Yorkshireman Richard Vivers b 1705 England d 1790 Annan and Elizabeth Kindred 1720 Yorkshire 1810 Annan . Elizabeth parents it seems were John Alexander and Hamilton Brown the latter married in Buittle 1802 . Any help appreciated finding Elizabeth Rae or Alexander or Brown birth and death entry proving elusive . I presume the burials should be primarily Annan with some in Kirkcudbrightshire Christopher 

<BE7AE182-8885-49BC-B057-6CBEF5B77F4F.jpeg><345016F9-C512-4D1D-AF5B-F53EBA2864E3.jpeg><8A77FFDA-49E8-49CE-B03C-B80775EC024B.jpeg><2F4934D8-BEF9-47D1-A4A4-57BECDEB10EE.jpeg><C4028BDD-7B41-488B-AFC8-5E5435DF72D7.jpeg><4F629615-9595-4734-869F-745E31707821.jpeg><63A6A694-8812-40C6-8D4E-D1DC9933E6E6.jpeg>


 

Update i have since examined transcripts of all the OPR's including the parents marriage John Rae and Ann Vivers they are one and the same . Same place mentioned Wintersheugh Ridge which is near Kelhead south of Cummertrees north of Powfoot and near Murthet which was where the Vivers lived . The transcripts mirror the OPR entries and although some of the entries i don't have this is enough to tell me this is all the same family . I have also came across a Vivers family tree with Ann Vivers in it stating she was the daughter of Ricard Vivers and Elizabeth Kindred and the wife of John Rae no dates given though nor any idea as to who drew up this tree, but looks like a handwritten pre internet tree which gives it more credence. In examining one of the OPR's i shared a while back mentions all of William Rae children names dates etc where born his wife Elizabeth Alexander who was born in the parish of Minnigaff and William Rae the son of John Rae and Ann Vivers of Wintersheugh Ridge where William was born and lived . So this ties it up , now im seeking dates for William parents burials though can't find MI at all Chris .