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Dukha
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Dear freinds,
Is dukha a paramatha dhamma? If it is not what would dukha be when described in paramatha dhamma's. Best wishes -- Marc |
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Sarah Procter Abbott
Marc
Is dukha a paramatha dhamma? If it is not what would dukha be when described in paramatha dhamma's.Dukkha is one of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned (parramatta dhammas). There cannot be dukkha without paramattha dhamma, so we cannot say "dukkha is a paramatha dhamma", only that it is the characteristic of paramattha dhammas, like anicca and anattā. Sarah |
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marc heijmerink
Hi Sarah,
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So does that mean dukkha is not a dhamma and therefor it does not excist and cannot be ecperienced? Puzzling. Wisching you well. Marc Op vrijdag 6 november 2020 schreef Sarah Abbott via groups.io <sarahprocterabbott=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io>: Marc --
Ziquei van de Zuiderwal |
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Sarah Procter Abbott
Marc
S: It's the characteristic of the dhamma that exists and can be experienced, not just dukkha without it being the unsatisfactory nature of a reality such as seeing or hearing which arises and falls away. If realities are not understood as they are as dhammas which are anattā, there cannot be any understanding of the impermanence or unsatisfactoriness of those dhammas which are not under anyone's control. Wishing you well too and glad to hear from you again, Marc. Sarah |
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 11:11 PM, Sarah Abbott wrote:
If realities are not understood as they are as dhammas which are anattā, there cannot be any understanding of the impermanence or unsatisfactoriness of those dhammas which are not under anyone's control.Thank you, Sarah. tadao |
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Hi Sarah,
Thank you. Very insightfull. I have been reading some. It seems you are talking about sankharadukkha. I suppose there is allso dukkhadukkha. Wich is unpleasant feeling. And therefor a cetasika and a reality. So the dukkha is or a charaterisric or a cetasika. There is allso a third kind which has to do with pleasant feeling falling away. Do you agree with me dukkha can be feeling aswell? I appreciate your gladness and posts. Marc -- Marc |
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nina
Dear Marc,
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Nice to see you again. Sarah answered your question and I can give some additional remarks about dukkha. As to sankhaaradukkha, it is the impermanence of all conditioned realities, but we usually take the word impermanence in a general sense. Then the meaning of dukkha may escape us. We have to take this in relation to this moment now that does not last for an instant. Seeing is so short, we cannot make it last longer, although it seems that seeing lasts a while. By intellectual understanding, the level of pariyatti, we know that seeing is only one short moment of vipaakacitta. It is conditioned by eyebase, visible object and kamma. It arises within a process of cittas and the following cittas in that process still experience visible object but they do not see. When we think about the fact that there is seeing it has fallen away already, thus, it is actually nothing. We cling to nothing, and that is dukkha. Intellectual understanding can condition direct understanding. When understanding of that level has been reached it becomes much clearer that seeing is not self and cannot be controlled. It is nothing, gone already. Thus the real meaning of dukkha becomes much clearer as understanding develops. It is not just a word. Now we read the sutta text differently, where it says: “in short, the five khandhas are dukkha”. Khandha means: what arises and falls away, and again, we have to see this in relation to the present moment. Seeing is a khandha, a nama khanda, and there is seeing now, but only for the briefest moment. It falls away instantly an is nothing. You ask whether pleasant feeling is also dukkha. Yes, all conditioned realities are dukkha, they are gone immediately. Not worth clinging to. All these things were discussed in our Zoom meetings which I find most useful. If your schedule allows it you may like to participate. We have windertime now and the timing for us in the Netherlands is Saturday, 8-10 in the morning. Each Friday Trin reminds us and gives ID and password. Best wishes, Nina.
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Sarah Procter Abbott
Marc
M: Thank you. Very insightfull. I have been reading some. It seems you are talking about sankharadukkha.S: Yes. All conditioned dhammas are sankhāradukkha, so this is what the Buddha teaches with regard to the first Noble Truth. So any of these dhammas has the characteristic of dukkha. M: I suppose there is allso dukkhadukkha. Wich is unpleasant feeling. And therefor a cetasika and a reality. So the dukkha is or a charaterisric or a cetasika.S: Yes, in this context dukkhadukkha just refers to the nature of unpleasant bodily and mental feelings as we are used to thinking about dukkha or what is unsatisfactory. It is still referring to the nature of these dhammas. M: There is allso a third kind which has to do with pleasant feeling falling away. Do you agree with me dukkha can be feeling aswell?S: This is viparināma dukkha. As you say in brief it is summarised as pleasant feeling which is also dukkha because we constantly search for pleasant feeling but it falls away instantly and is therefore no refuge at all. Glad to discuss here with you and perhaps on zoom again sometime too. Sarah |
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