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Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost


szmicio
 

*I meant: world-manager, not word-manager
L


szmicio
 

Hi Jon, Alberto,

Jon: Don’t be upset by Alberto bringing this up.  He is not calling you names.  
 
Every person has the tendency to be critical of other people and things they have done, or to want to change the way other people act.  This is what Ajahn means by wanting to be a world-manager.  It’s a good reminder for us all!

L: Right. What I am saying is that the word manager has pejorative or negative connotations for me. And well, I had never been an activist of any kind in my life, and rather I am not going to be. I don't like(hate) activism of any kind(even political parties that I do favor). I hate activism or whatever is it called and does not matter if it's in favour of me or nor. Activism for me always was is and will be a bad thing, I think activism is one of the only things I had never done in my life. So I don't think I am a word manager. I sometimes may be too attached to myself or being control freak from time to time. But please don't call me word manager or most of it an activist. I disgust this term. Thank you. And no probs as usual.

Best wishes
Lukas

p.s

Alberto as to skype I am sorry I am wobble a bit last couple days sober than again the other thing. I will try to let you know when oki?


Jonothan Abbott
 

Hi Lukas

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 07:34 PM, szmicio wrote:
Hi Alberto (Azita et al)
...
A: I remember once Ajahn's asking "would you like to be the world's manager?"

L: Oh Alberto.. I hate it..what you calling me now... I am really nothing like word manager.. actually I have nothing to do with changing people or the world. I don't like activists at all. You see Alberto you call me names now, but you remember that I am the same long term Ajahn Sujin's student and listener as You are. So I know most of the phrases and words Ajahn Sujin ever said. I listen and read a lot of Than Ajahn. And those word manager I think she mentions to Azita question, or maybe my memory fails. I think was something about like activism and telling others what to do. If that was not Azita question then I have 2 other people Ajahn Sujin may answer to in reference to a question/dilemma. But it does not matter I remember the world manager phrase very well.

Don’t be upset by Alberto bringing this up.  He is not calling you names.  
 
Every person has the tendency to be critical of other people and things they have done, or to want to change the way other people act.  This is what Ajahn means by wanting to be a world-manager.  It’s a good reminder for us all!
 
Jon


alberto
 

Hi Lukas,
 
It's good hearing from you, and glad that you've joined a therapeutic group, every bit helps. 
And what can really make the difference in this and future lives is understanding no self now in what is seen now, a little bit better than before, just a little bit. 
The absolute truth is that there is not enough time for Lukas or Alberto to be seen, just in one moment of seeing, it has to be thinking with ignorance and attachment about the nimitta of that which is already gone. This is the Teaching of the Buddha which Ajahn understands very well, so well that even we can learn her explanations, little by little, very little.
 
Tomorrow PM would be great for a skype chat.
 
Alberto
 


szmicio
 

Hi Alberto(Azita et al)

Alberto: Wow, well spotted Lukas :) I've checked B.Bodhi translation and found a footnote with the commentary which explains why consciousness is not mentioned here:
 
19 Spk: Why isn’t the consciousness element mentioned here (as a “home for consciousness”)? 
To avoid confusion, for “home” is here spoken of in the sense of a condition (paccaya ). 
An earlier kammic consciousness is a condition for both a later kammic consciousness and a resultant consciousness, and an (earlier) resultant consciousness for both a (later) resultant consciousness and a (later) kammic consciousness. 
Therefore the confusion could arise: “What kind of consciousness is intended here?” 
To avoid such confusion, consciousness is not included, and the teaching is expressed without disorder.
Further, the other four aggregates, as objects (or bases: ārammaṇavasena), are said to be “stations for the kammically generative consciousness” (abhisaṅkhāraviññāṇaṭṭhitiyo), and to show them thus consciousness is not mentioned here.

Lukas: Okay thanks mate. I will re-read it when in mood in my free time. Am Are you available on skype this week? Tomorrow I am having a therapeutic group before noon, after that I am free. So if you on Alberto I would be glad to call you on skype.? I wish we could talk for a while, speaking on Dhamma and more mundane matter of life. Only if you find some spare time for me.

A: I remember once Ajahn's asking "would you like to be the world's manager?"

L: Oh Alberto.. I hate it..what you calling me now... I am really nothing like word manager.. actually I have nothing to do with changing people or the world. I don't like activists at all. You see Alberto you call me names now, but you remember that I am the same long term Ajahn Sujin's student and listener as You are. So I know most of the phrases and words Ajahn Sujin ever said. I listen and read a lot of Than Ajahn. And those word manager I think she mentions to Azita question, or maybe my memory fails. I think was something about like activism and telling others what to do. If that was not Azita question then I have 2 other people Ajahn Sujin may answer to in reference to a question/dilemma. But it does not matter I remember the world manager phrase very well.

Best wishes
Lukas


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

L: What I mean Ajahn Sujin would not say to me go to a doctor, like some mad or crazy guy. As I told you she told me later
, at least 2 weeks. that I suppose to  'take care of your body and your mind'.
S: I agree, she won't say "do this" or "do that", but taking care of body and mind means taking the kinds of medicine one needs (no matter whether this is food or other medicine) and listening and understanding the dhamma. We read about the monks eating congee first thing and other nutritious food and medicine as prescribed. Without these, if one is sick, one will not be able to listen to the dhamma. Each moment, each kind of nutrient (whether mental or physical) and its effect is all by conditions, however. That's why rules can never be set.

L: She also added later, that life needs to be long, to really understand dhamma. and it's not like now and special experience. She told I need to 'live long, to really understand'.

S: Isn't it true? It all depends on kamma when life will end but all these factors such as taking care of mental and physical health are important by way of support. 

They were good reminders that she gave you. I remember her saying the last one. 

Sarah


Sarah Abbott
 

Alberto (& Lukas)

>Al:  I've found this sutta reminding us that thinking with expectations is conditioned, just as thinking without them is.

Yes, all conditioned. A good sutta about expectations which cause so much disappointment and difficulty in life.

Sarah

 
<<<<<<
...
“And how, householder, does one entertain expectations? Here, householder, someone thinks: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one entertains expectations.
“And how, householder, is one without expectations? Here, householder, someone does not think: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! [12] May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one is without expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
 


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas (Azita & all)
>Azita: Hallo Alberto and Sarah,
>thank you, I've just learnt something new about hadaya, did not know before this that it is a synonym for citta.

Lukas: Since Alberto quoted Ajahn Sujin passage in the beginning post. And Ajahn Sujin was referring 'innermost' and 'pure'. And she described in her talk those separately two instances, namely 'innermost' and 'pure' or you azita may now it as 'luminous',
S: Pandara (clear or pure) is not the same as pabhassaraṃ (luminous). Every citta is pandara but not every citta is pabhassaraṃ. Akusala cittas can never be "luminous", for example.

L: AS was many times says like metta, no need to have it is already there. That was Ajahns words many times. So not for me. I don't have metta accumulated. or any restraint and kusala. For Ajahn Suji it's easy, she has it since accumulated. 
S: The point is that now there can be mettā, kusala friendliness, as we talk to and think of those around us, thinking of their needs rather than our own. It depends on whether there is understanding to know the characteristic of mettā and its value so that it develops naturally. This is different from trying to have it by following a practice motivated by lobha (and the idea of self who can make it arise). 

For everyone, it has to be developed and this can only be through understanding its characteristic and wholesome quality when it appears and by seeing the danger of akusala such as dosa when it appears.

Sarah


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas (Azita, Alberto & all)

Lukas: I only referred as innermost, citta is hadaya. Innermost. I didn't refer to the kind of ruupa that is hadaya. I only referred to the two instances of cittas in Vibhangapali. that cittam pandara and hadaya. So pure and innermost.
S: Yes, but others were discussing and raising the topic of hadaya rūpa with is an outer āyatana, dhammāyatana along with all subtle rūpas. There was confusion between the two, so important to clarify.

As you say, citta is pandara and hadaya, "so pure and innermost" and all these synonyms of citta are given in the Vibhanga. Mano is another one which Azita was discussing as often it's translated as "mind", but it's any citta including seeing consciousness now.

L: And also do not confuse hadaya, innermost <citta> as ajjhatta/bahiddha that is mentioned in satipathanna MN.10 or Vibhangapali I.Khhandha instances. So do not confuse the citta hadaya innermost or most inner with ajjhatta like internal referring to self.
S: In reality there is no self or other, just the innermost citta at each moment of life no matter what is thought about, even when thinking conventionally (or with wrong view) about self and others.

Sarah


alberto
 

Hi Lukas,
 
L: Thanks for the Sutta. I am a layperson, so I can be political, I can have my opinion on climate or whatever. Some of my personal views I will never change is abortion. For Buddha it was killing, For Elders, it was killing, and for me, it is killing unborn ones. So those are not only my views, and I want to help and support politics that will protect unborn kids. I can bend down my head and leave this view, but only if it will lead to stop killing unborn kids. It's abortion, very bad dead, and in modern culture and some politics, now think is good. I try to be without views, but still, there are some views I will never change. I am still layperson, and I can be involved with politics, kings and their ministers. This the Buddha teaching. And he says every upasika and upasaka can be involved in politics. I rather think that what BUddha meant in Suttas and IN Vibhanga, Abhidhamma is not like political views, or your own personal views like protecting unborn, or protect the family and their wholesome values from LGBT+ and all spoiled modern ideologies, so this is Okay to a layperson. Buddha said only let go the ditthi, like a wrong views, and you know from brahmajala sutta a lot a whole net of wrong vies like ethernalism, no result of kamma, no kamma, you know many of these wrong ditthi. I am a layperson, and some opinions, while following Buddha sasana, I agree and keep and follow, since they are good and wholesome. I am not gonna get rid of all of my personal views. Sorry, Alberto. This is my personal opinion, and I want to help to protect families and good worldly weel being.
 
A: I remember once Ajahn's asking "would you like to be the world's manager?"... and in another occasion saying that taking part actively in politics with kusala cittas (i.e. with metta for all involved, including those who do wrong) is fine, otherwise would just be like shooting oneself in the foot. For example she is talking on Thai radio and TV programs on how many monks in Thailand are breaking Vinaya and destroying the teachings of the Buddha by accepting and handling money, and she's also caring about these monks by warning them of the future results of their deeds, giving them a chance to give up their wrong doings.
 
L: There is a mistake in the Sutta in the beginning 5th Paragraph. Someone made only 4 Khandha ending on sankhara, volitional reactions, conditione of course, no self. And forgot citta.
 
“The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home."
 
A: Wow, well spotted Lukas :) I've checked B.Bodhi translation and found a footnote with the commentary which explains why consciousness is not mentioned here:
 
19 Spk: Why isn’t the consciousness element mentioned here (as a “home for consciousness”)? 
To avoid confusion, for “home” is here spoken of in the sense of a condition (paccaya ). 
An earlier kammic consciousness is a condition for both a later kammic consciousness and a resultant consciousness, and an (earlier) resultant consciousness for both a (later) resultant consciousness and a (later) kammic consciousness. 
Therefore the confusion could arise: “What kind of consciousness is intended here?” 
To avoid such confusion, consciousness is not included, and the teaching is expressed without disorder. 
Further, the other four aggregates, as objects (or bases: ārammaṇavasena), are said to be “stations for the kammically generative consciousness” (abhisaṅkhāraviññāṇaṭṭhitiyo), and to show them thus consciousness is not mentioned here.
 


szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,
Thanks for the Sutta. There is a mistake there, so it's good to send a message to Central Sutta to make a correction to the Text of this Sutta in English.
Thanks for the Sutta. I am a layperson, so I can be political, I can have my opinion on climate or whatever. Some of my personal views I will never change is abortion. For Buddha it was killing, For Elders, it was killing, and for me, it is killing unborn ones. So those are not only my views, and I want to help and support politics that will protect unborn kids. I can bend down my head and leave this view, but only if it will lead to stop killing unborn kids. It's abortion, very bad dead, and in modern culture and some politics, now think is good. I try to be without views, but still, there are some views I will never change. I am still layperson, and I can be involved with politics, kings and their ministers. This the Buddha teaching. And he says every upasika and upasaka can be involved in politics. I rather think that what BUddha meant in Suttas and IN Vibhanga, Abhidhamma is not like political views, or your own personal views like protecting unborn, or protect the family and their wholesome values from LGBT+ and all spoiled modern ideologies, so this is Okay to a layperson. Buddha said only let go the ditthi, like a wrong views, and you know from brahmajala sutta a lot a whole net of wrong vies like ethernalism, no result of kamma, no kamma, you know many of these wrong ditthi. I am a layperson, and some opinions, while following Buddha sasana, I agree and keep and follow, since they are good and wholesome. I am not gonna get rid of all of my personal views. Sorry, Alberto. This is my personal opinion, and I want to help to protect families and good worldly weel being.

There is a mistake in the Sutta in the beginning 5th Paragraph. Someone made only 4 Khandha ending on sankhara, volitional reactions, conditione of course, no self. And forgot citta.

“The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home."

Alberto, can you speak with them about this typo?

Okay, thanks for the sutta I like this strofa(katthu?verse?) especially:

‘Having left home to roam without abode,
In the village the sage is intimate with none;
Rid of sensual pleasures, without expectations,
He would not engage people in dispute.’

Best wishes
LUkas



szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,

A: I remember in Huahin Ajahn reminding us to go to doctors and take their medicines to cure the body and that the Dhamma is the best medicine to cure the mind..

Lukas: yes, but Hua-hin was before, later we went somewhere to mountains, It was later I don't know the name something starting with K..
And then she said to me in a private discussion while walking: 'Take care of your mind, and of your body.' And also some Vietnamese friends were there and they asked if Ajahn liked her stay in Poland before. She said she liked it very much, and she said she never says she will not come back. That was off the record discussion.

What I mean Ajahn Sujin would not say to me go to a doctor, like some mad or crazy guy. As I told you she told me later
, at least 2 weeks. that I suppose to  'take care of your body and your mind'. She also added later, that life needs to be long, to really understand dhamma. and it's not like now and special experience. She told I need to 'live long, to really understand'.

Best wishes
Lukas


nina
 

Dear Alberto,

I like the sutta and the way you present it to Lukas. In the future, I used to think of a future life, but it can be the nearest future. That makes it more actual. Just now we have different expectations to be realised soon.

Nina. 

Op 25 aug. 2020, om 17:03 heeft alberto <alberto.spera@...> het volgende geschreven:

“And how, householder, does one entertain expectations? Here, householder, someone thinks: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one entertains expectations.



alberto
 

Hi Lukas,
 
L: It's not easy for me. And I am looking for a cure for my illness. So I had been considering that the feeling unpleasant or pleasant is conditioned, it's only feeling, is gonna go. I don't know, I am desperate, and I am trying everything. 
 
A: I remember in Huahin Ajahn reminding us to go to doctors and take their medicines to cure the body and that the Dhamma is the best medicine to cure the mind... take care of both your body and your mind the best that you can! what else can you do? I've found this sutta reminding us that thinking with expectations is conditioned, just as thinking without them is.
 
<<<<<<
...
“And how, householder, does one entertain expectations? Here, householder, someone thinks: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one entertains expectations.
“And how, householder, is one without expectations? Here, householder, someone does not think: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! [12] May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one is without expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
 


Azita Gill
 

Hallo Sarah,

 thanks for the clarification.  The dhamma is a lot deeper than I think when reading alone, always good to have someone to check uncertainties  with.   I appreciate your time and energy Sarah.

Live for understanding,
Azita


szmicio
 

Hi Azita, Alberto, Sarah and all

>Azita: Hallo Alberto and Sarah,
>thank you, I've just learnt something new about hadaya, did not know before this that it is a synonym for citta.

Lukas: Since Alberto quoted Ajahn Sujin passage in the beginning post. And Ajahn Sujin was referring 'innermost' and 'pure'. And she described in her talk those separately two instances, namely 'innermost' and 'pure' or you azita may now it as 'luminous', so these two what Ajahn Sujin explained she referred actually to 'little charactristics' of citta(As Buddha taught In Vibhangapali, Abhdidhammapitaka). Ajahn Sujin never says something unimportant or what Buddha didn't teach. Ajahn is very good in the Elders teaching and how she teaches now is exactly as Elders did after Budda passed away. So it's very easy to look up those two words 'pure' and 'innermost'. And this pandara and hadaya. All an instance, a characteristic of a citta, or vi~n~nana. Ajahn Sujin is using vitakka very well to hit you, but my problem is 'not having good conduct(carita)', partly I assume because of alcohol. And I respect Ajahn for her easy going way to share and cultivate and spread among people the right understanding, but I am afraid it will not help me only theoretical understanding while lacking sila and a good conduct cariya. That's why I am saying AS has both vijjacariya, and I may be in a wrong place here, since I have no proper good conduct of behaviour and only restraint could have change it I reckon.

AS was many times says like metta, no need to have it is already there. That was Ajahns words many times. So not for me. I don't have metta accumulated. or any restraint and kusala. For Ajahn Suji it's easy, she has it since accumulated.

Best wishes
Lukas


szmicio
 

Hi Sarah, Alberto

S: Yes, hadaya is a synonym for citta, the innermost nāma, manāyatana
This is not to be confused with the subtle rūpa, haddāya which arises in a group conditioned by kamma and is the vatthu (base) for all cittas in this realm aparat from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. As a subtle rūpa it's dhammāyatana, the outer āyatana.
 
A: Yes, that's right, thanks Sarah (I've just checked the Pali spelling, is the same for both, as a word for citta and as vatthu rupa, and it's also hadaya, the heart, as the 11th "part" of the body, kesa, loma, nakha...)

Lukas: I only referred as innermost, citta is hadaya. Innermost. I didn't refer to the kind of ruupa that is hadaya. I only referred to the two instances of cittas in Vibhangapali. that cittam pandara and hadaya. So pure and innermost. And also do not confuse hadaya, innermost <citta> as ajjhatta/bahiddha that is mentioned in satipathanna MN.10 or Vibhangapali I.Khhandha instances. So do not confuse the citta hadaya innermost or most inner with ajjhatta like internal referring to self.

Best wishes
Lukas


szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,

>L: I meant savaka before, not savaka Buddha.
 
>A: Then I think we're savaka at any moment when there's any level of understanding of the teachings of the Buddha beginning with sabbe dhamma anatta.

Lukas: Well, so now you are right.! Because when you mentioned savaka Buddha, I thought it wasn't referring to the topic at all. And sometimes we must be watchful, to don't bend over or lean towards our personal views(wrongly accumulated for a time).
Still, savaka means listener(also I think it can be meaning an Elder or disciple). But mostly Savaka means listener, from what have I heard. And Vibhanga(analysis) is equal to savaka. That's why we are called the the followers of the Listeners, or Recollectors, Analysis of The Buddha Dhamma. My definition according to Scripts.

Anyway, I have a very tough time now. I was thinking episodically about Goenka method(made up of course in 19th century) but I was thinking of pain mental, and what Goenka said, that meditation is now, reflection or understanding and not react toward anything. AS you know Mr. Goenka said this practical thing that he discovered from Buddha the link now is feeling(vedana). It's not easy for me. And I am looking for a cure for my illness. So I had been considering that the feeling unpleasant or pleasant is conditioned, it's only feeling, is gonna go. I don't know, I am desperate, and I am trying everything.

Best wishes
Lukas


nina
 

Dear Azita,

Good, that is daily life. Understanding can be developed naturally. As you said before about your grand daughter, when you asked her to touch the table, she said: hard. If there are conditions, it is good when you tell us more about her.

Nina.

Op 24 aug. 2020, om 00:22 heeft Azita Gill <azitag@...> het volgende geschreven:

I probably should not have turned on video while having a curious 5 yr old sitting on my knee :(   in fact I hardly heard anything of the discussion  because there was quite a bit of activity going on around me.  Just wanted to see you all.


alberto
 

Sarah: On the point you were discussing with Jon about the sotāpanna's understanding or something which you questioned - I remember he was just stressing the point which Nina keeps mentioning is so important with regard to conventional usage in daily life. There's a table and a tree but no misunderstanding that this is anything other than conventional usage. The arahats still know who is who and what is what, even though all doubts and wrong views were eradicated at the stage of sotāpanna. 
 
Alberto: I've no objections on that