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Saturday Discussion V, 3.


nina
 

Dear friends,

Sarah: There can be a beginning to understand that dhammas are anatta. No one can do anything or select an object. No one can choose what appears next.

Nina: We do not have to be aware of a particular reality.

Sarah: That would be the idea of self, not understanding naturally whatever appears. Wrong practice can come in any time, even in a dhamma discussion. Whatever arises, arises by conditions. 

Acharn: What is meant by not clinging? 

Nina: Clinging is the opposite of letting go. If there is no clinging one does not 
try to be aware.  

Acharn: Can you tell anyone: don’t try to be aware and don’t cling?

Nina: Trying to be aware is clinging already.  

Acharn: There is no understanding. From hearing the teachings one will study carefully. From the very beginning one can understand the word dhamma: a reality, no one. It is true. 
The truth of everything is: no self, uncontrollable, not me. In a day is there even a short moment of considering: it is not me? It may be just thinking. This means that the conditions are not sufficient. Even thinking about what is appearing now is very difficult. So, it is impossible to say: don’t cling, don’t try. 
Be truthful to this moment. Pañña knows what is right and what is wrong.
Anything is conditioned, no matter what kind of thinking. No one can tell anyone: don’t do this or that. Understand completely what is the truth. It takes a long time, but it does not matter. Understanding is the moment of letting go. 
Nina:When I ask a question I realize that the idea of self is behind it. But this is knowing by thinking. It is not the realization that my question is motivated by clinging to the wish to know. 

Acharn: Until one has attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotapanna, there is still the idea of self. 
It is so common, but it can be understood that there is no perfect understanding, even at the level of intellectual understanding. 
The Buddha spoke about Sariputta and Moggallana, but this does not mean that he did nt realize the truth of nama and rupa. 
When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command. The value of what is right and what is wrong can be realized. Pañña understands the word of the Buddha about the truth all the time, the truth that there is not self, not me. Even when doing good deeds it is not “I” who acts, it is the function of dhamma. By the understanding of dhamma there can be a letting go of self, little by little. 
There can be more conditions for understanding of what appears now. There is no choice, it has arisen by conditions.No one can change this moment, it is so natural. It depends on pañña how much understanding there is. When there is doubt, pañña knows it. When there is not enough pañña, it is me. It is just a matter of pañña to perform its function when it has developed to higher degrees.
————
Nina. 


szmicio
 

Hi everyone,

<Sarah: There can be a beginning to understand that dhammas are anatta. No one can do anything or select an object. No one can choose what appears next.
 
Nina: We do not have to be aware of a particular reality.
 
Sarah: That would be the idea of self, not understanding naturally whatever appears. Wrong practice can come in any time, even in a dhamma discussion. Whatever arises, arises by conditions. >


Lukas: I don't find it practical, at all. We can say many things, but the main point is to understand what we refer or the object is now. And I think we need to come back Satipatthana now.
Guys, I think personally, that all is natural, even trying or meditate, it's also natural, but of different degree and maybe on a different door, sasankarika gross and thinking.

Sometimes I think AS tries too much to smooth things, like natural, truthful, but for understanding is no problem if you sit and meditate or stand.

I find actually AS teaching overpainted and like artificial. There is a Self come in naturally in life, and what is the problem?

I didn't listen to this script any further since I know Ajahn Sujin and she is quite predictable what she will say in future or next. So I know, I will pass.


Best wishes
Lukas

p.s

Somebody may think I am offending, like the teacher, Ajahn Sujin or maybe, even more, the Buddha.
But I don't, I am just simply not an Indian, I am European so we are never brought up in this kindness-crazy culture of Indians East.
And somehow te Indian or far east Asia culture I recept as too much, they kind, but they lose their honesty with me. And truthfulness. If more kind, always less truth in it. Unknown grounds still, anyone want for sure one can do Pch.D on it if you want.
At least it's how I recept it.
I am not offending, Just am I brought in a different culture. So if we misunderstand with anyone say it up and I will answer for that.
doubt. doubt, doubt..They say craving is a problem. 1)But does craving arise with doubt? Or 2) the doubt arise with craving? Or 3) they don't like each other?
Best wishes
Lukas



Giao
 
Edited

DeOn Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 12:03 AM, nina wrote:
   
       Dear All,

I quote the sentences: "When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command. The value of what is right and what is wrong can be realized....."  I'm not sure I understand this paragraph correctly. What this sentence means? Help me!

Thank you,
------
Giao


nina
 

Dear Giao,

good you ask.
We do not have to follow blindly: do good deeds. Pañña can realize what is right and what is wrong and this can condition kusala. Pañña, not you, sees the benefit of kusala. Pañña also sees more and more the danger of akusala. when akusala citta arises more akusala is accumulated and this leads to sorrow. When there is more understanding of the reality appearing now, there are more conditions for wholesomeness. 

Op 5 aug. 2020, om 01:14 heeft Giao via groups.io <trangiao@...> het volgende geschreven:

[Edited Message Follows]

DeOn Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 12:03 AM, nina wrote:
   
       Dear All,

I quote the sentences: "When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command. The value of what is right and what is wrong can be realized....."  I'm not sure I understand this paragraph correctly. What this sentence means? Help me!

Thank you,
------
Giao


nina
 

Dear Lukas,

Doubt, what is it. One may doubt whether the Buddha taught the truth of life: just one moment of experiencing an object. Doubt does not arise at the same time as craving. Craving: you like something very much, want to get it. 
 It is good that you reflect on Dhamma. You find that you hear the same things over and over again, but I think that it is good be reminded. We have so much ignorance accumulated for aeons. The latent tendencies are deeply rooted and so stubborn.
Best wishes,

Nina. 

Op 4 aug. 2020, om 20:13 heeft szmicio via groups.io <szmicio@...> het volgende geschreven:

They say craving is a problem. 1)But does craving arise with doubt? Or 2) the doubt arise with craving? Or 3) they don't like each other?


szmicio
 

Dear Nina,

But you see, AS is teaching only intellectual understanding, and thinking or words. I am a long term listener of Ajahn Sujin, and how anyone can blame me if I am so intellectual and speculative and not understand or mindful now. It's not my fault partly since I have been told like that. And that's what I had been taught for some many years listening dhamma recordings from 2004, and on them is very little of like now. Mostly is listen and hear dhamma and intellectually consider. I suppose not to be blamed now, that I don't understand what Ajahn Sujin means now, and she says I only understand words, terms, and Am I like a parrot. But that's what I had been taught. So I don't know if this doubt now or if I really don't understand Dhamma.

That's why I was saying that we all need to be careful since Ajahn Sujin has very high parami/accumulations. And what is for her natural, it may not be our dhamma for us. It can be checked simply. Do we really understand how and what change or benefits there is now in our life? Dhamma really supposes to brings benefits like less and less clinging. It's akaliko and ehipassiko, so it's nothing to only follow blindly someone, there need to be Mangala gradually and little by little. If I am worst now, then before. Somethings not good. Everyone is different.

Best wishes
Lukas


Nina: Doubt, what is it. One may doubt whether the Buddha taught the truth of life: just one moment of experiencing an object. Doubt does not arise at the same time as craving. Craving: you like something very much, want to get it. 
 It is good that you reflect on Dhamma. You find that you hear the same things over and over again, but I think that it is good be reminded. We have so much ignorance accumulated for aeons. The latent tendencies are deeply rooted and so stubborn.
Best wishes,


szmicio
 

Hi Khun Giao, (all)

Giao:I quote the sentences: "When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command. The value of what is right and what is wrong can be realized....."  I'm not sure I understand this paragraph correctly. What this sentence means? Help me!

Lukas: I think you may be a native, or born Buddhist so it may not be clear for you what Nina means. In the West, we are brought up in Christian Culture, like Protestants and Roman-Catholics. And we have this 10 commandments from God brought by Moses. So this is 10 things The God commands us to do, and no questioning. It's not relative, it absolute. It's what every Christian needs to obey and follow without any doubt or question. So that's why Nina refers to 'When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command'. But honestly, am I wrong if you are born-Buddhist? If correct I really would like to hear what you have to say about those commandments. Since we Westerners don't comprehend Buddhism correctly as natives do. And I would be grateful to hear on that topic from the born-Buddhist. Because Nina or me we can be wrong how we see as an outsider what Buddha teachings really are. So I appreciate so much to know how the Buddhist understands and interprets and follow, like a command and silla and faith or trust. Just feel free to express yourself and teach me also on that, because I know very little on Buddha teachings.

Thanks much
Lukas


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

<Sarah: There can be a beginning to understand that dhammas are anatta. No one can do anything or select an object. No one can choose what appears next.
 
Nina: We do not have to be aware of a particular reality.
 
Sarah: That would be the idea of self, not understanding naturally whatever appears. Wrong practice can come in any time, even in a dhamma discussion. Whatever arises, arises by conditions. >


Lukas: I don't find it practical, at all. We can say many things, but the main point is to understand what we refer or the object is now. And I think we need to come back Satipatthana now.
Guys, I think personally, that all is natural, even trying or meditate, it's also natural, but of different degree and maybe on a different door, sasankarika gross and thinking.
S: There is nothing more "practical" than the right understanding of the present reality! What we are discussing above is the development of the path, the development of satipaṭṭhāna as taught by the Buddha, i.e. the understanding of whatever dhamma arises now as anattā, not in anyone's control. 

When you refer to "trying to meditate", what is the reality? What is the purpose? 
You keep mentioning sasankharika and asankharika. These refer to realities, such as the degree of lobha now. 




L: Sometimes I think AS tries too much to smooth things, like natural, truthful, but for understanding is no problem if you sit and meditate or stand.
S: What is meditating? What reality is it? 



L: I find actually AS teaching overpainted and like artificial. There is a Self come in naturally in life, and what is the problem?
S: Yes, the wrong idea of self comes in very naturally in life. Isn't it better to understand it as a dhamma, diṭṭhi, so that the truth of life is known? 


L: I didn't listen to this script any further since I know Ajahn Sujin and she is quite predictable what she will say in future or next. So I know, I will pass.

p.s

Somebody may think I am offending, like the teacher, Ajahn Sujin or maybe, even more, the Buddha.
But I don't, I am just simply not an Indian, I am European so we are never brought up in this kindness-crazy culture of Indians East.
S: What we read about in the texts and what the Buddha taught has nothing to do with "Indian" or "European". The study is of realities, not of different people. Whatever we read about is about dhammas, like the Dhammasañganī which you used to study makes so clear at the start - kusala, akusala, avyākata dhammas. 

Is kindness, mettā kusala or akusala? Does it belong to an Indian or European or is it a wholesome dhamma which arises and passes away? What about anger? The same answer.


L: And somehow te Indian or far east Asia culture I recept as too much, they kind, but they lose their honesty with me. And truthfulness. If more kind, always less truth in it. Unknown grounds still, anyone want for sure one can do Pch.D on it if you want.
At least it's how I recept it.
I am not offending, Just am I brought in a different culture.
S: What we're discussing and what the Buddha taught has everything to do with the right understanding of dhammas and nothing to do with different cultures.

L: So if we misunderstand with anyone say it up and I will answer for that.
doubt. doubt, doubt..They say craving is a problem. 1)But does craving arise with doubt? Or 2) the doubt arise with craving? Or 3) they don't like each other?
S: Doubt just arises with mohā mūla citta not with lobha. Different moments.

Sarah
 


Sarah Abbott
 

Giao

Many thanks for joining all the zoom discussions. We appreciate your keen interest even though the English language is difficult for you sometimes.

G: I quote the sentences: "When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command. The value of what is right and what is wrong can be realized....."  I'm not sure I understand this paragraph correctly. What this sentence means? Help me!
S: It's a really important and subtle point to raise. Thank you for that!

When the Buddha said "do good deeds" or "be aware" or "make right effort" or "overcome defilements", such words have to be read in accordance with all his teachings about all dhammas being anattā. Kusala cittas, sati, viriya, overcoming (pahāna) of defilement, all point to different kusala dhammas that arise by conditions, depending on the development of paññā. 

There has never been and never will be anyone who can "do" anything, so it's just a reminder about the value of understanding what is good and right and to be developed. Isn't goodness and good deeds now more precious that bad deeds? So it's just a pointer to right understanding which conditions goodness, awareness, right effort and so on.

Sarah


szmicio
 

Hi Sarah, Giao

S: It's a really important and subtle point to raise. Thank you for that!

When the Buddha said "do good deeds" or "be aware" or "make right effort" or "overcome defilements", such words have to be read in accordance with all his teachings about all dhammas being anattā. Kusala cittas, sati, viriya, overcoming (pahāna) of defilement, all point to different kusala dhammas that arise by conditions, depending on the development of paññā. 

There has never been and never will be anyone who can "do" anything, so it's just a reminder about the value of understanding what is good and right and to be developed. Isn't goodness and good deeds now more precious that bad deeds? So it's just a pointer to right understanding which conditions goodness, awareness, right effort and so on.

L: Sarah, that is all true what you saying, but mind please that Buddha taught in a conventional way too. He not always was saying there is eye and visible objecte. There is many teachings of Buddha. Buddha taught gradually and to different characters/individuals. Can we simply say now to anyone? There are only dhammas flying around in their conditioned way? Can we forget sila, samadhi, panna?

Best wishes
Lukas


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

S: When the Buddha said "do good deeds" or "be aware" or "make right effort" or "overcome defilements", such words have to be read in accordance with all his teachings about all dhammas being anattā. Kusala cittas, sati, viriya, overcoming (pahāna) of defilement, all point to different kusala dhammas that arise by conditions, depending on the development of paññā. 

S: There has never been and never will be anyone who can "do" anything, so it's just a reminder about the value of understanding what is good and right and to be developed. Isn't goodness and good deeds now more precious that bad deeds? So it's just a pointer to right understanding which conditions goodness, awareness, right effort and so on.

L: Sarah, that is all true what you saying, but mind please that Buddha taught in a conventional way too. He not always was saying there is eye and visible objecte. There is many teachings of Buddha. Buddha taught gradually and to different characters/individuals. Can we simply say now to anyone? There are only dhammas flying around in their conditioned way? Can we forget sila, samadhi, panna?
S: What are sīla, samādhi and paññā if not conditioned realities? No matter what language the Buddha used, he was always talking about the truth - the truth that whatever arises now is citta, cetasika or rūpa. Nothing else at all. It would depend on the listener whether there was enough paññā to penetrate the truth about anattā or whether the idea of self was so strong that it just seemed like ordinary, conventional language about doing good which any teacher at the time could have taught.

Sarah


Giao
 
Edited

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 02:14 AM, szmicio wrote:
I think you may be a native, or born Buddhist so it may not be clear for you what Nina means. In the West, we are brought up in Christian Culture, like Protestants and Roman-Catholics. And we have this 10 commandments from God brought by Moses. So this is 10 things The God commands us to do, and no questioning. It's not relative, it absolute. It's what every Christian needs to obey and follow without any doubt or question. So that's why Nina refers to 'When the Buddha said: do good deeds, it is not a command'.
Hi Lukas,
 
Thank you for your idea. It's impressive. At the forum, I heard more than asked, because my English is not good.
    Lukas: 
         "I think you may be a native, or born Buddhist so it may not be clear for you what Nina means. In the West, we are brought up in Christian Culture, like Protestants and Roman-Catholics. And we have this 10 commandments from God brought by Moses. So this is 10 things The God commands us to do, and no questioning. It's not relative, it absolute. It's what every Christian needs to obey and follow without any doubt or question." 
   Giao: 
         No, I am not. And I have just known Buddhism for more than 10 years. I am interested in your information about Western culture.  Before, I also spent a lot of time studying Buddhism. Especially combining the parallel meditation methods with reading the great sutras. My favorite western Zen masters are Achan Bram, Gold-stein ...

         Your question is so difficult. I try to come up with the following ideas:
        - The first point I mention when reading Sutta is, do not be in a hurry to believe one thing. After hearing, considering and experiencing that is true, please completely believe and live up to that. 
        - if we don't consider what's in the Sutta that just mention about ultimate reality, it'll be very complicated. I am learning to understand that, the Buddha's teachings_which are to talk only about ultimate real at this moment. That why,  I asked that question. And I'm thinking and cosidering about the answers, by Nina and Sarah. it's so helpful.
        - I am becoming more and more interested in the ways of the Dharma approach of the teachers - led by Achann. With my little knowledge, up to now, begining on the ultimate realities at this moment that are the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings. Because anata_characteristics of the Dharma, is known only when hearing the teachings of the Buddha.
        Thanks for your interested!
 
--
Giao


szmicio
 

Hi Sarah,

S: What are sīla, samādhi and paññā if not conditioned realities? No matter what language the Buddha used, he was always talking about the truth - the truth that whatever arises now is citta, cetasika or rūpa. Nothing else at all

L: Of course, Buddha always taught about Truth, citta, cetasika and rupa. But he used different languages and gradual training. Buddha didn't go to Anathapindika or whoever and say citta,cetasika and rupa. He used conventional language, also he spoke about sila(restraint). Otherwise, if it would be like u say then we have only Abhidhamma Pitaka. This is my question, there needs to be a meaning and a point why Buddha taught TI-Pitaka, 3 baskets, not one?

Best wishes
Lukas


Sarah Abbott
 

Giao

G:.....up to now, begining on the ultimate realities at this moment that are the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings. Because anata_characteristics of the Dharma, is known only when hearing the teachings of the Buddha.
S: Your comments to Lukas were very wise. We so appreciate your interest and understanding (and very improved English)!

See you soon!

Sarah


Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

S: What are sīla, samādhi and paññā if not conditioned realities? No matter what language the Buddha used, he was always talking about the truth - the truth that whatever arises now is citta, cetasika or rūpa. Nothing else at all

L: Of course, Buddha always taught about Truth, citta, cetasika and rupa. But he used different languages and gradual training. Buddha didn't go to Anathapindika or whoever and say citta,cetasika and rupa. He used conventional language, also he spoke about sila(restraint).
S: Yes, he used different kinds of conventional language according to who he was speaking to, just as we do. You may speak to Alberto about cittas and cetasikas in English but to your mother about different kinds of goodness in Polish.
No matter what words the Buddha used, he was always referring to dhammas which are anattā, the "All".

What is sīla (restraint) if not kusala citta? No one who can restrain or "do" sīla.

L: Otherwise, if it would be like u say then we have only Abhidhamma Pitaka. This is my question, there needs to be a meaning and a point why Buddha taught TI-Pitaka, 3 baskets, not one?
S: Whichever part of the Tipitaka we read it is about dhammas which are conditioned and anattā and to be understood here and now. 

Sarah


Roti
 

Dear Sarah,

Sarah: ...the "All"...

Roti: The “All”?

Roti
--
Roti


Sarah Abbott
 

Roti

 
Roti: The “All”?
S:  SN IV. (Salaayatanavagga) 23 (1), Bodhi Transl.  "The All"
 
At Saavatthı. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the all.[*6] Listen to that….
 
“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.
 
“If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’—that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.”
 
*6 Spk: 
The all (sabba) is fourfold: 
(i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e., everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha’s knowledge of omniscience; 
(ii) the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the four planes; 
(iii) the all of personal identity (sakkaayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and 
(iv) the partial all (padesasabba), i.e., the five physical sense objects. 
Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. 
In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended.
 
The four planes are the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbaana).


Sarah
 


szmicio
 

Hi Giao(Huong)

Lukas: Thanks for talking, Just wanted to clarify and thanks for your answers. For me, the topic is closed. But of course you can discuss anything and express yourself. I am trying to sort out my life, so not gona rise a voice here.
I am having difficulties to read your English. But that is not a worry. I also before starting Khun's Sujin, DSG and Nina books, I had learned English from here, from Ajahn Sujin folks. My English before I started study AS Dhamma. I couldn't understand most of the words and meaning, but I learned English constantly reading Nina books, and I learned to talk, posting and discussing a lot on DSG. And trust me before that my English was very poor.

I have an advice to you and Huong maybe to install Grammarly, this is an app that helps to correct your English and especially the grammar. So you can benefit more.

https://www.grammarly.com/?q=brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=brand_f1&utm_content=76996511046&utm_term=gramarrly&matchtype=e&placement=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwyo36BRAXEiwA24CwGXri8WH3bp3dB4OZu4V-H5chA6I6d5QKydfapSkLd85rFYB6iQ49uRoCxAkQAvD_BwE

The best is to register there or add a plugin to the browser. Then it suppose to automatically correct all you English in the browser. Try it guys.

Best wishes
Lukas

  Giao: 
         No, I am not. And I have just known Buddhism for more than 10 years. I am interested in your information about Western culture.  Before, I also spent a lot of time studying Buddhism. Especially combining the parallel meditation methods with reading the great sutras. My favorite western Zen masters are Achan Bram, Gold-stein ...

         Your question is so difficult. I try to come up with the following ideas:
        - The first point I mention when reading Sutta is, do not be in a hurry to believe one thing. After hearing, considering and experiencing that is true, please completely believe and live up to that. 
        - if we don't consider what's in the Sutta that just mention about ultimate reality, it'll be very complicated. I am learning to understand that, the Buddha's teachings_which are to talk only about ultimate real at this moment. That why,  I asked that question. And I'm thinking and cosidering about the answers, by Nina and Sarah. it's so helpful.
        - I am becoming more and more interested in the ways of the Dharma approach of the teachers - led by Achann. With my little knowledge, up to now, begining on the ultimate realities at this moment that are the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings. Because anata_characteristics of the Dharma, is known only when hearing the teachings of the Buddha.
        Thanks for your interested!
 


Huong To
 

Hi Lukas, how good at you find the gammarly app to help Giao and I to improve enghlish.
Thanks for that
Best wishes
H


szmicio
 

Hi Houng,
Maybe the time will come that you help me? No one knows that. And you are very good in awareness. Maybe some day you also tell Ajahn Sujin followers, they need to have some awareness too? And maybe you can help me later? It is much better to help one person, and not everyone. 

Best wishes
Lukas