Date   

Re: Saturday discussion VIII, 2.

nina
 

Dear Sarah,

Op 27 aug. 2020, om 12:56 heeft Sarah Abbott via groups.io <sarahprocterabbott@...> het volgende geschreven:

S: Possible, but Ann's question was: "What is the function of citta in the javana process?" Ajahn commonly picks up on this point, saying it's better to refer to kusala or akusala cittas. 
———
N:I know Acharn would rather not say javana-citta but speak about kusala citta and akusala citta performing the function of javana. And as you say Ann’s question was about the function of those cittas. Easy to miss some subtle points. 

Nina.

I had planned to add a comment at the time as it was mentioned again later and I thought the point had been missed.


Re: Zoom VN discussion July 22nd: Sila

Jonothan Abbott
 

Hi Lukas

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 06:42 AM, szmicio wrote:
Hi Jon,
...
Jon: On the meaning of effort as spoken of by the Buddha in the expression “ātāpī sampajāno satimā” in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), the question to be considered is whether ātāpī here refers to (a) effort in the conventional sense of *trying to have or achieve* awareness and understanding or (b) the mental factor of viriya that *arises together with* awareness and understanding.

Lukas: Well, I think both. They both can refer to atapi. ANd one is vohara/sammuti or conventional way of expression or referring to, and the other is according to the truth, or ultimate. So both are correct in my opinion. Buddha taught mostly in a conventional way, but he always points to dhammas there now.

Jon:  I agree with your last sentence, “Buddha taught mostly in a conventional way, but he always points to dhammas there now”.  
 
So then if the expression “ātāpī sampajāno satimā” is taken to be a conventional one, we need to consider what the dhammas being pointed to are.
 
What is conventionally taken for effort, making an effort, or trying is usually akusala citta.
 
Jon: I think you are suggesting the former meaning.  But does that meaning fit the context?  
 
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;

L: Yes, why not. Please mind that I had been in Goenka vipassana courses and also on his satipatthana course. So he comments and refers to all of that satipathana sutta pali words very well. Abhijjhadomanassa. and loka and to let go or leave beyond/behind the strong cravings in the world. Is it visamalobha? I don;t know. But I think it's like one needs to be ardent, want to with an effort to pass beyoung the worldly attachments and pain wit awareness and understanding, of a dhamma one by one. Not to just be involved in concepts of stories about people and thing with just an effort. Then it's not a good effort.

Jon:  Consider the cittas that “want to pass beyond the worldly attachments and pain with awareness and understanding of a dhamma one by one”.  Could those cittas be kusala (which of the kinds of kusala would that be)?
 
Wanting things to be other than they actually are is usually not going to be kusala.  This is quite different from, say, seeing the danger in some aspect of the present moment.
 
I agree that “concepts of stories about people and things” is not going to be kusala.  But let’s keep in mind that the only kusala that leads out of samsara is the understanding of things as they really are at the present moment, and that understanding can arise at times of such stories, just as much as at any other time.
 
Atapi means like always ardent and full of energy, but only with sati and panna.

Jon: As I see it, all 3 terms are describing the mind-state/s of a person who is experiencing moments of (highly developed) awareness and understanding.

Lukas: yes it is. But Buddha taught conventionally. If I say now I am full of effort and aware, that needs to be dhammas at work. If I say it's me. Does not mean wrong. Because there still can be understanding.

Jon:  Yes, understanding can arise at any time and take any reality as its object.  That’s why it’s not a matter of what the situation is.
 
Jon:  I was using ‘without prompting’ in the conventional sense of not making a deliberate effort (to have awareness and understanding).

Lukas: But sometimes deliberate effort can be not prompted by yourself or others. I think even effort is anatta, so it can arise with being prompted, sporadically, mostly it is prompted. And in my ops it means it is induced like hearing dhamma? But this now for me I dont know. Because I am very sick and very dependent on external intoxicants, and this makes myself so dull, and I need to change, and study dhamma. But it's very hard. And I am lazy, I have no effort.

Jon:  As long as there is interest in what is appearing now, or in some part of the Buddha’s teaching, there will be conditions for study of one kind or another.
 
Jon: In the Buddha’s teaching, all conditioned dhammas, including sati and panna, are by nature anicca, dukkha and anatta.  The arising of these wholesome mental states, which have been accumulated in previous lifetimes, is conditioned by considering more deeply the Buddha’s description of the world at the present moment, rather than by some form of practice designed to bring about or facilitate their arising.

L: Well, this is my problem, because I dont know how to make an effort to arise? For sure there must being something, some conditions, that make an effort to arise?

When there is reflecting on some aspect of Dhamma previously heard or studied, there is effort.  Effort of the conventional ‘trying’ or ‘doing’ kind is not required!
 
Jon


Re: Saturday discussion VIII, 2.

Sarah Abbott
 

Nina

 
As far as I understood, just “call” it kusala or akusala. In other words, not just calling by name but rather: realize its characteristic. 
 
Is this a possibility?
 
 
S: Possible, but Ann's question was: "What is the function of citta in the javana process?" Ajahn commonly picks up on this point, saying it's better to refer to kusala or akusala cittas. 

I had planned to add a comment at the time as it was mentioned again later and I thought the point had been missed.

As you say, in any case, it's always back to understanding the characteristic now, no matter the topic.

Sarah


Op 27 aug. 2020, om 09:01 heeft Sarah Abbott via groups.io <sarahprocterabbott@...> het volgende geschreven:
Ann asked what the function of the citta is in the javana process. Ajahn then asked whether she would like to just call it kusala or akusala.


Re: Saturday discussion VIII, 2.

nina
 

Dear Sarah,
 
As far as I understood, just “call” it kusala or akusala. In other words, not just calling by name but rather: realize its characteristic. 

Is this a possibility?

Nina.

Op 27 aug. 2020, om 09:01 heeft Sarah Abbott via groups.io <sarahprocterabbott@...> het volgende geschreven:

Ann asked what the function of the citta is in the javana process. Ajahn then asked whether she would like to just call it kusala or akusala.


Re: Saturday discussion VIII, 2.

Sarah Abbott
 

Nina (& Ann)

N: Ann: asked what the function is of citta in the javana process, thus when it is kusala citta or akusala citta.
 
Acharn: Do you have to call it kusala and akusala?
S: It was a little different as I recall.

Ann asked what the function of the citta is in the javana process. Ajahn then asked whether she would like to just call it kusala or akusala.

The point she was making is that it's better to just refer to it as kusala or akusala citta rather than "citta in the javana process". Javana is the function of those kusala and akusala cittas, rather than a process.

Sarah
 


Re: Zoom jottings 17

Sarah Abbott
 

Friends

(From a Vietnamese/English discussion)

Thao asked about meditation and the Buddha's enlightenment, about samatha and the intention to sit still to calm the mind. 

AS: Who is meditating? Can anyone meditate? Can anyone calm the mind?

T: I can do that. I will set the mind. I can clear the mind.
Meditation - the Buddha understood the truth, sitting under the tree meditating. Clarity of mind from sitting, relaxing.

AS: One word at a time.
Enlightened to what? The truth of what? Enlightened to the truth of seeing, hearing, everything. So what did he say about seeing which he had been enlightened to?

Is the mind dirty or clean? Some people try to make it clear or clean by some method, but it's so very dirty with ignorance.
****
Discussion about pariyatti leading to the direct understanding, satipaṭṭhāna. Bhāvanā is the development of understanding. Vipassanā is the clear understanding of realities as they are. Right understanding has to be very firm to condition the direct understanding of a reality now.

Hearing and wise considering leads to the end of ignorance and all kilesa (defilements).  Before hearing the Teachings, everything is "me", "I", but after hearing the Teachings that there are just realities which are gone, never to return, there is the development of the understanding of the Truth, but not yet the direct understanding. Just listen!

Sarah


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 

Alberto (& Lukas)

>Al:  I've found this sutta reminding us that thinking with expectations is conditioned, just as thinking without them is.

Yes, all conditioned. A good sutta about expectations which cause so much disappointment and difficulty in life.

Sarah

 
<<<<<<
...
“And how, householder, does one entertain expectations? Here, householder, someone thinks: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one entertains expectations.
“And how, householder, is one without expectations? Here, householder, someone does not think: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! [12] May I have such consciousness in the future!’ 
It is in such a way that one is without expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
 


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas (Azita & all)
>Azita: Hallo Alberto and Sarah,
>thank you, I've just learnt something new about hadaya, did not know before this that it is a synonym for citta.

Lukas: Since Alberto quoted Ajahn Sujin passage in the beginning post. And Ajahn Sujin was referring 'innermost' and 'pure'. And she described in her talk those separately two instances, namely 'innermost' and 'pure' or you azita may now it as 'luminous',
S: Pandara (clear or pure) is not the same as pabhassaraṃ (luminous). Every citta is pandara but not every citta is pabhassaraṃ. Akusala cittas can never be "luminous", for example.

L: AS was many times says like metta, no need to have it is already there. That was Ajahns words many times. So not for me. I don't have metta accumulated. or any restraint and kusala. For Ajahn Suji it's easy, she has it since accumulated. 
S: The point is that now there can be mettā, kusala friendliness, as we talk to and think of those around us, thinking of their needs rather than our own. It depends on whether there is understanding to know the characteristic of mettā and its value so that it develops naturally. This is different from trying to have it by following a practice motivated by lobha (and the idea of self who can make it arise). 

For everyone, it has to be developed and this can only be through understanding its characteristic and wholesome quality when it appears and by seeing the danger of akusala such as dosa when it appears.

Sarah


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Huong To
 




On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 at 11:24 am, szmicio via groups.io <szmicio=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Houng,
Maybe the time will come that you help me? No one knows that. And you are very good in awareness. Maybe some day you also tell Ajahn Sujin followers, they need to have some awareness too? And maybe you can help me later? It is much better to help one person, and not everyone. 

Best wishes
Lukas



Hi Lukas

What can I help you? and AS followers they need to understand what AS talked about reality is now; seeing is see visible object that one reality once at a time. It is arises and passed away immediately. She talked about absolute truth ; the truth can't not change by I or me but by condition. She is good talker about the word of the Buddha and comprehensive 
of Abhidhamma. Which is only citta, cetasikas, rupas.

However, if some one isn't ready to understand what AS explains the truth or not accept there is no ones, no things at all or no I, or me in the absolute truth for many years listen to her. It might be condition is not ready for them or whatever I can't tell because depend on many conditions to everyone. The path of leading to understand the Buddha isn't easy because ignorant is the big boss. 

 Best wishes
H






Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas (Azita, Alberto & all)

Lukas: I only referred as innermost, citta is hadaya. Innermost. I didn't refer to the kind of ruupa that is hadaya. I only referred to the two instances of cittas in Vibhangapali. that cittam pandara and hadaya. So pure and innermost.
S: Yes, but others were discussing and raising the topic of hadaya rūpa with is an outer āyatana, dhammāyatana along with all subtle rūpas. There was confusion between the two, so important to clarify.

As you say, citta is pandara and hadaya, "so pure and innermost" and all these synonyms of citta are given in the Vibhanga. Mano is another one which Azita was discussing as often it's translated as "mind", but it's any citta including seeing consciousness now.

L: And also do not confuse hadaya, innermost <citta> as ajjhatta/bahiddha that is mentioned in satipathanna MN.10 or Vibhangapali I.Khhandha instances. So do not confuse the citta hadaya innermost or most inner with ajjhatta like internal referring to self.
S: In reality there is no self or other, just the innermost citta at each moment of life no matter what is thought about, even when thinking conventionally (or with wrong view) about self and others.

Sarah


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas & Giao

Most friends here are not native English speakers and we like to encourage everyone to discuss and share. Giao's English has improved so much since we first met him. Thanks, anyway, for your kind suggestions to others, Lukas. 

There were a couple of real gems which Giao wrote which were easy to read and which I appreciated a lot as they show his confidence in the Teachings:

G: - if we don't consider what's in the Sutta that just mention about ultimate reality, it'll be very complicated. I am learning to understand that, the Buddha's teachings_which are to talk only about ultimate real at this moment.

- With my little knowledge, up to now, begining on the ultimate realities at this moment that are the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings. Because anata_characteristics of the Dharma, is known only when hearing the teachings of the Buddha.

Sarah
 


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

szmicio
 

Hi Houng,
Maybe the time will come that you help me? No one knows that. And you are very good in awareness. Maybe some day you also tell Ajahn Sujin followers, they need to have some awareness too? And maybe you can help me later? It is much better to help one person, and not everyone. 

Best wishes
Lukas


For Roti

Vince
 

Hi Roti,

I have send you a message to your e-mail about translations. I tell you here in the list
because sometimes GMail blocks a sender message and put the message inside Spam folder.

Please, if you cannot find my message, check your Spam folder inside Gmail, and mark my
message like "no spam" to avoid future blocks.


good to know you!




Vince.

Dsg
dsg@groups.io


Saturday discussion, VIII, 3.

nina
 

Dear friends,

Acharn: When there is understanding, in so far as it is possible for that level, it begins to develop, to understand the truth. It is better than to know how many thousands there are of vara(N:round or series of cittas within a process), but not understanding of the characteristic that appears as it is. There is “something” and “I” all the time. Life is so short, ignorance and attachment have been accumulated for a long time. It is best to understand (reality) as it is, not taking it for something permanent. One may think of the lifespan of rupa and citta, but it is impossible to experience that. What is the use? Just know that nothing is permanent, (reality) just appears and disappears. (There are) seeing or hearing without there being understanding of the nature of no self, only that which experiences. Understanding has to be developed from a very low level to a very high level, by considering the truth which appears. There are so many layers of understanding. For example, attachment to seeing is not as much as attachment to the idea of me or self. There is less attachment when understanding the characteristic of anything as not self. That which is seen is there, together with hardness or softness, with the four primary rupas (N: Visible object arises in a group or kalapa of rupas, consisting of the four Great Elements and other rupas). We cannot make anything arise, they are conditioned realities, conditioned by many conditions. 

————
Nina.


Re: Zoom VN discussion July 22nd: Sila

Jonothan Abbott
 

Hi Lukas

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 06:42 AM, szmicio wrote:
Hi Jon,
I know that you are very developed in Dhamma person. You not only speak about things, but also live and according to what you say, I know it, Jon. I will always remember what you said years and years ago here on DSG, that you really don't mind what people think of if you understand dhamma or not. I appreciate that so much, and I know you understand Dhamma very well. Not only say, but you understand and live with Dhamma, so Dhamma benefits very well of you. This is not a compliment or something. This is just my appreciation of your understanding. So you see even me, a torn apart former dhamma student and an alcoholics, so still, I can appreciate Dhamma of you, at least a bit I understand, otherwise I would not understand, and would not appreciate that. I know you and Sarah, and I know Sarah understands also and can speak very well. But I appreciate you because you are so quiet, I think you are more nekhhama appreciation person, and I like it. And I appreciate it so much. And both of yours input to me and others that are just a beginners now or having problems or been in a difficult situation now like me. So just know that I really understand you Jon. And you are very good of my friends, though we don't speak much together. Just occasionaly. What is that once every 3 or 4 months.

Jon:  I know what you mean, and I feel the same way.  You and I don’t communicate much, but we understand each other well.
 
I very much admire your interest in the Dhamma, both the Dhamma generally and detailed Abhidhamma points in particular.  And your ability to recall details of things heard or read some time ago is amazing!
 
I think you and Sarah completing yourself fully and very well.  You are very good friends, both to me and others. I appreciate kusala you have. And I wish in the future I also can change and leave my personal views aside, and be like you JON. I believe detachment is the best friend, ever to hang around.

Thanks for the kind words.  I regard you as a good friend.
 
Don’t have too many expectations about beating the addiction problem soon or easily, as that could lead to disappointment and frustration. Whatever happens, just keep up your interest in developing the path.
 
Jon


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

alberto
 

Hi Lukas,
 
L: Thanks for the Sutta. I am a layperson, so I can be political, I can have my opinion on climate or whatever. Some of my personal views I will never change is abortion. For Buddha it was killing, For Elders, it was killing, and for me, it is killing unborn ones. So those are not only my views, and I want to help and support politics that will protect unborn kids. I can bend down my head and leave this view, but only if it will lead to stop killing unborn kids. It's abortion, very bad dead, and in modern culture and some politics, now think is good. I try to be without views, but still, there are some views I will never change. I am still layperson, and I can be involved with politics, kings and their ministers. This the Buddha teaching. And he says every upasika and upasaka can be involved in politics. I rather think that what BUddha meant in Suttas and IN Vibhanga, Abhidhamma is not like political views, or your own personal views like protecting unborn, or protect the family and their wholesome values from LGBT+ and all spoiled modern ideologies, so this is Okay to a layperson. Buddha said only let go the ditthi, like a wrong views, and you know from brahmajala sutta a lot a whole net of wrong vies like ethernalism, no result of kamma, no kamma, you know many of these wrong ditthi. I am a layperson, and some opinions, while following Buddha sasana, I agree and keep and follow, since they are good and wholesome. I am not gonna get rid of all of my personal views. Sorry, Alberto. This is my personal opinion, and I want to help to protect families and good worldly weel being.
 
A: I remember once Ajahn's asking "would you like to be the world's manager?"... and in another occasion saying that taking part actively in politics with kusala cittas (i.e. with metta for all involved, including those who do wrong) is fine, otherwise would just be like shooting oneself in the foot. For example she is talking on Thai radio and TV programs on how many monks in Thailand are breaking Vinaya and destroying the teachings of the Buddha by accepting and handling money, and she's also caring about these monks by warning them of the future results of their deeds, giving them a chance to give up their wrong doings.
 
L: There is a mistake in the Sutta in the beginning 5th Paragraph. Someone made only 4 Khandha ending on sankhara, volitional reactions, conditione of course, no self. And forgot citta.
 
“The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home."
 
A: Wow, well spotted Lukas :) I've checked B.Bodhi translation and found a footnote with the commentary which explains why consciousness is not mentioned here:
 
19 Spk: Why isn’t the consciousness element mentioned here (as a “home for consciousness”)? 
To avoid confusion, for “home” is here spoken of in the sense of a condition (paccaya ). 
An earlier kammic consciousness is a condition for both a later kammic consciousness and a resultant consciousness, and an (earlier) resultant consciousness for both a (later) resultant consciousness and a (later) kammic consciousness. 
Therefore the confusion could arise: “What kind of consciousness is intended here?” 
To avoid such confusion, consciousness is not included, and the teaching is expressed without disorder. 
Further, the other four aggregates, as objects (or bases: ārammaṇavasena), are said to be “stations for the kammically generative consciousness” (abhisaṅkhāraviññāṇaṭṭhitiyo), and to show them thus consciousness is not mentioned here.
 


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Huong To
 

Hi Lukas, how good at you find the gammarly app to help Giao and I to improve enghlish.
Thanks for that
Best wishes
H


Re: Saturday discussion VIII, 2.

szmicio
 

Hi guys

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 09:50 AM, nina wrote:
Acharn: At the moment of seeing, are there inner and outer rupas? Can visible object be an inner rupa?
Lukas: Of course. The outer is only others. All 5 khandhas that are other beings is always bahjda and refers to others. Not only rupa, but all 5 khandha can be ajjhata/bahidda satipathana sutta. internal or external, check vibhanga pali, khandha vagga czapter one, instances of 5 khandhas. It's all to be understood.

Best wishes
Lukas


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,
Thanks for the Sutta. There is a mistake there, so it's good to send a message to Central Sutta to make a correction to the Text of this Sutta in English.
Thanks for the Sutta. I am a layperson, so I can be political, I can have my opinion on climate or whatever. Some of my personal views I will never change is abortion. For Buddha it was killing, For Elders, it was killing, and for me, it is killing unborn ones. So those are not only my views, and I want to help and support politics that will protect unborn kids. I can bend down my head and leave this view, but only if it will lead to stop killing unborn kids. It's abortion, very bad dead, and in modern culture and some politics, now think is good. I try to be without views, but still, there are some views I will never change. I am still layperson, and I can be involved with politics, kings and their ministers. This the Buddha teaching. And he says every upasika and upasaka can be involved in politics. I rather think that what BUddha meant in Suttas and IN Vibhanga, Abhidhamma is not like political views, or your own personal views like protecting unborn, or protect the family and their wholesome values from LGBT+ and all spoiled modern ideologies, so this is Okay to a layperson. Buddha said only let go the ditthi, like a wrong views, and you know from brahmajala sutta a lot a whole net of wrong vies like ethernalism, no result of kamma, no kamma, you know many of these wrong ditthi. I am a layperson, and some opinions, while following Buddha sasana, I agree and keep and follow, since they are good and wholesome. I am not gonna get rid of all of my personal views. Sorry, Alberto. This is my personal opinion, and I want to help to protect families and good worldly weel being.

There is a mistake in the Sutta in the beginning 5th Paragraph. Someone made only 4 Khandha ending on sankhara, volitional reactions, conditione of course, no self. And forgot citta.

“The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home."

Alberto, can you speak with them about this typo?

Okay, thanks for the sutta I like this strofa(katthu?verse?) especially:

‘Having left home to roam without abode,
In the village the sage is intimate with none;
Rid of sensual pleasures, without expectations,
He would not engage people in dispute.’

Best wishes
LUkas



Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,

A: I remember in Huahin Ajahn reminding us to go to doctors and take their medicines to cure the body and that the Dhamma is the best medicine to cure the mind..

Lukas: yes, but Hua-hin was before, later we went somewhere to mountains, It was later I don't know the name something starting with K..
And then she said to me in a private discussion while walking: 'Take care of your mind, and of your body.' And also some Vietnamese friends were there and they asked if Ajahn liked her stay in Poland before. She said she liked it very much, and she said she never says she will not come back. That was off the record discussion.

What I mean Ajahn Sujin would not say to me go to a doctor, like some mad or crazy guy. As I told you she told me later
, at least 2 weeks. that I suppose to  'take care of your body and your mind'. She also added later, that life needs to be long, to really understand dhamma. and it's not like now and special experience. She told I need to 'live long, to really understand'.

Best wishes
Lukas