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Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

szmicio
 

Hi Sarah, Alberto

S: Yes, hadaya is a synonym for citta, the innermost nāma, manāyatana
This is not to be confused with the subtle rūpa, haddāya which arises in a group conditioned by kamma and is the vatthu (base) for all cittas in this realm aparat from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. As a subtle rūpa it's dhammāyatana, the outer āyatana.
 
A: Yes, that's right, thanks Sarah (I've just checked the Pali spelling, is the same for both, as a word for citta and as vatthu rupa, and it's also hadaya, the heart, as the 11th "part" of the body, kesa, loma, nakha...)

Lukas: I only referred as innermost, citta is hadaya. Innermost. I didn't refer to the kind of ruupa that is hadaya. I only referred to the two instances of cittas in Vibhangapali. that cittam pandara and hadaya. So pure and innermost. And also do not confuse hadaya, innermost <citta> as ajjhatta/bahiddha that is mentioned in satipathanna MN.10 or Vibhangapali I.Khhandha instances. So do not confuse the citta hadaya innermost or most inner with ajjhatta like internal referring to self.

Best wishes
Lukas


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

szmicio
 

Hi Alberto,

>L: I meant savaka before, not savaka Buddha.
 
>A: Then I think we're savaka at any moment when there's any level of understanding of the teachings of the Buddha beginning with sabbe dhamma anatta.

Lukas: Well, so now you are right.! Because when you mentioned savaka Buddha, I thought it wasn't referring to the topic at all. And sometimes we must be watchful, to don't bend over or lean towards our personal views(wrongly accumulated for a time).
Still, savaka means listener(also I think it can be meaning an Elder or disciple). But mostly Savaka means listener, from what have I heard. And Vibhanga(analysis) is equal to savaka. That's why we are called the the followers of the Listeners, or Recollectors, Analysis of The Buddha Dhamma. My definition according to Scripts.

Anyway, I have a very tough time now. I was thinking episodically about Goenka method(made up of course in 19th century) but I was thinking of pain mental, and what Goenka said, that meditation is now, reflection or understanding and not react toward anything. AS you know Mr. Goenka said this practical thing that he discovered from Buddha the link now is feeling(vedana). It's not easy for me. And I am looking for a cure for my illness. So I had been considering that the feeling unpleasant or pleasant is conditioned, it's only feeling, is gonna go. I don't know, I am desperate, and I am trying everything.

Best wishes
Lukas


Saturday discussion, VIII, 1.

nina
 

Dear friends,

Nina:I find it helpful that Acharn often says that understanding arises suddenly, unexpectedly. We never know the next moment. We can make beautiful plans, but we do not know the outcome, this depends on conditions. We had a heatwave and I had no help and there was a lot of washing. Sarah had her foot injured. These are all situations. When we consider paramattha dhammas, absolute realities, we understand that we never know the next moment of seeing, of body-consciousness. It is helpful to consider this.

Acharn: What is the best thing at that very moment?

Nina: To be aware but that depends on conditions. 

Acharn: They are all dhammas, but the truth of it does not appear. It does not appear as the object of a moment of experience. 

Nina: We forget that and we are absorbed in the “story” we are thinking of.

Acharn: It is not self, nothing can be done at all. Just remember that all realities are conditioned and that they are there just for that moment and then gone. They are not permanent, and this is so very helpful. They cannot be taken for “I” or “something”. 
Just understanding is the best. Even just very little, it does not matter. It takes time for sankhara khandha to develop little by little. (N: Sankharakkhandha includes all cetasikas apart from remembrance and feeling. It includes all wholesome cetasikas such as sati, pañña, energy, confidence. These have a function in the development of pañña). 
As to what is seen, there is nothing there. Whatever is appearing now is the truth. No one can change it or do anything, nothing is “I”. Dhamma cannot be anything else, it has to be as it is, right now. But pañña is not enough to let go of clinging and of taking it for “something” all the time. But it is the truth to be known. As pañña does not grow sufficiently it is developing little by little, by sankharakkhandha. No one, no self at any moment at all. 
Just learn fom the teachings of the Buddha that all dhammas are anatta. Not just the words, but it is right now. Understand that no one makes it (reality) arise, but that it is there. The arising and fallen away (of realities) is not known yet. What appears now is gone, all the time. There is momentary death (of realities, khanika marana): the truth that everything that is conditioned to arise has to fall away. 
It is impossible to directly experience (the truth) just from understanding a few words of the teachings. But one should hear it agai as a reminder and understand that the truth is the the truth, no one, no self. 
For example, right now there is hardness. Hardness cannot be tasted or smelt. When it is experienced it is hard. The truth is covered up by ignorance: one just takes it for “something” when it is there. Even when one does not yet know what is there, there is (already) clinging. Even in a sense-door process, a few moments after seeing, there are ignorance and attachment. Can this be known or experienced? It is now. Can it be experieced as no one? It takes time. How long have ignorance and attachment be there as “somehing”. All gone, is that true?

Sarah: We spend a lot of time thinking of difficult situations such as no helper when there is a lot of washing, a heatwave. We completely forget that there is seeing now, hearing now, thinking now. The difficulty is not the washing or the (injured) foot, but the clinging and the aversion. It passes instantly, not my dosa (aversion) and my clinging. At the moment of seeing there is no difficulty, or at a moment of kindness, no difficulty. The difficulty is not the situation, but the moments of akusala (unwholesomeness) that arise and pass.

Nina: Your words are very consoling.

Jon: When talking about impermanence at the coventional level it is not the teaching of the Buddha. They are only reminders of the true nature of the present reality. 
————
Nina. 


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

szmicio
 

Hi Giao(Huong)

Lukas: Thanks for talking, Just wanted to clarify and thanks for your answers. For me, the topic is closed. But of course you can discuss anything and express yourself. I am trying to sort out my life, so not gona rise a voice here.
I am having difficulties to read your English. But that is not a worry. I also before starting Khun's Sujin, DSG and Nina books, I had learned English from here, from Ajahn Sujin folks. My English before I started study AS Dhamma. I couldn't understand most of the words and meaning, but I learned English constantly reading Nina books, and I learned to talk, posting and discussing a lot on DSG. And trust me before that my English was very poor.

I have an advice to you and Huong maybe to install Grammarly, this is an app that helps to correct your English and especially the grammar. So you can benefit more.

https://www.grammarly.com/?q=brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=brand_f1&utm_content=76996511046&utm_term=gramarrly&matchtype=e&placement=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwyo36BRAXEiwA24CwGXri8WH3bp3dB4OZu4V-H5chA6I6d5QKydfapSkLd85rFYB6iQ49uRoCxAkQAvD_BwE

The best is to register there or add a plugin to the browser. Then it suppose to automatically correct all you English in the browser. Try it guys.

Best wishes
Lukas

  Giao: 
         No, I am not. And I have just known Buddhism for more than 10 years. I am interested in your information about Western culture.  Before, I also spent a lot of time studying Buddhism. Especially combining the parallel meditation methods with reading the great sutras. My favorite western Zen masters are Achan Bram, Gold-stein ...

         Your question is so difficult. I try to come up with the following ideas:
        - The first point I mention when reading Sutta is, do not be in a hurry to believe one thing. After hearing, considering and experiencing that is true, please completely believe and live up to that. 
        - if we don't consider what's in the Sutta that just mention about ultimate reality, it'll be very complicated. I am learning to understand that, the Buddha's teachings_which are to talk only about ultimate real at this moment. That why,  I asked that question. And I'm thinking and cosidering about the answers, by Nina and Sarah. it's so helpful.
        - I am becoming more and more interested in the ways of the Dharma approach of the teachers - led by Achann. With my little knowledge, up to now, begining on the ultimate realities at this moment that are the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings. Because anata_characteristics of the Dharma, is known only when hearing the teachings of the Buddha.
        Thanks for your interested!
 


Re: Saturday discussion VI, 4

szmicio
 

Hi Sarah,(Alberto, Phil)

No worries about my question, I already forgot what was that. My main point now is to stop drinking, complete abstinence. I know myself, and this is my weakest point. Literally breaking the 5th precept, leads to so many akusala and especially wrong speech. I will try my best but don't know how it will. Be people usually think, what is the problem, yeah? Can't drink, then don't drink. But really it's not so simple. It's a lot about dopamine in the brain. Usually what we do in life is conditioned on the rush of dopamine, before any course of action taken. And people like me 15 years or so day in day drinking excessively. On a physical level, my dopamine only releases while having a drink. So this physical body. I can't simply act or do anything else, then thinking of a must of having an early drink, not a coffee or breakfast. I can't do anything else, since the natural healthy habit of the brain to do something and accomplish can't rise. Simply. My unconscious and physical habit of drinking is the only I have. (neurotransmitters in the brain - ruupas). That's what I had read in one of the medical science magazines, but I feel it's true. I don't need excuses why I am drinking, I know why I drink. It's simply the body, and bodily dependence on one of the most common depressants and harmful intoxicant.

Best wishes
Lukas

S: I'm sure Alberto will try to help raise your questions if he can and if you really cannot join. Anytime is the time for Dhamma!


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

nina
 

Dear Azita,

Good, that is daily life. Understanding can be developed naturally. As you said before about your grand daughter, when you asked her to touch the table, she said: hard. If there are conditions, it is good when you tell us more about her.

Nina.

Op 24 aug. 2020, om 00:22 heeft Azita Gill <azitag@...> het volgende geschreven:

I probably should not have turned on video while having a curious 5 yr old sitting on my knee :(   in fact I hardly heard anything of the discussion  because there was quite a bit of activity going on around me.  Just wanted to see you all.


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

alberto
 

Sarah: On the point you were discussing with Jon about the sotāpanna's understanding or something which you questioned - I remember he was just stressing the point which Nina keeps mentioning is so important with regard to conventional usage in daily life. There's a table and a tree but no misunderstanding that this is anything other than conventional usage. The arahats still know who is who and what is what, even though all doubts and wrong views were eradicated at the stage of sotāpanna. 
 
Alberto: I've no objections on that
 


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 
Edited

Azita


Az: thank you, I've just learnt something new about hadaya, did not know before this that it is a synonym for citta. 
I apologise for the disruption to discussion on Sun.  I probably should not have turned on video while having a curious 5 yr old sitting on my knee :(   in fact I hardly heard anything of the discussion  because there was quite a bit of activity going on around me.  Just wanted to see you all.
S: We were glad to see you and your grandchild too!

Re my query on Saturday, the passage I read was from the Guhatthaka Sutta:
           One should take nothing as "mine" :  having abandoned taking things as mine on account of craving, having relinquished taking things as mine on account of views, one should not take as mine, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind.......
            the first five, eye etc I take to mean rupa which is why I wondered what mind would be. If it means the eye base etc then I assume it must mean heart base.   However if it means the citta which sees etc  than it does mean all the other cittas that do not arise at the sense bases.    Have I got this right?
S: B.Bodhi's translation in Sn is rather different. I suppose it is these lines:

777. See them trembling over things taken as “mine”
like fish in a depleted stream with little water.
Having seen this too, one should take nothing as “mine,” not forming attachment to states of existence. (6) 

 

Here's a commentary note given: 

"One should take nothing as “mine”: Having abandoned taking things as “mine” on account of craving, having relin-quished taking things as “mine” on account of views, one should not take as “mine” the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind; forms . . . tactile objects, or mental phenomena; family, group, abode, gain, fame, praise, pleasure, robes, almsfood, lodging, or medicinal requisites; any realm of existence or mode of existence—in the desire realm, the form realm, or the formless realm—in the past, future, or present, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, or cognized"

S:  I
t says "one should not take as “mine” the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind; forms . . . tactile objects, or mental phenomena", 
 these refer to the 12 āyatanas, the inner and outer dhammas we've been discussing recently. The inner āyatanas are eye-sense, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and all cittas included in manāyatana (translated here also as mind). The outer āyatanas are visible objects, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects and cetasikas and subtle rūpas all included in dhammāyatana (translated here as mental phenomena).

Sarah


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Azita Gill
 

Hallo Alberto and Sarah,

thank you, I've just learnt something new about hadaya, did not know before this that it is a synonym for citta. 
I apologise for the disruption to discussion on Sun.  I probably should not have turned on video while having a curious 5 yr old sitting on my knee :(   in fact I hardly heard anything of the discussion  because there was quite a bit of activity going on around me.  Just wanted to see you all.

Re my query on Saturday, the passage I read was from the Guhatthaka Sutta:
           One should take nothing as "mine" :  having abandoned taking things as mine on account of craving, having relinquished taking things as mine on account of views, one should not take as mine, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind.......
            the first five, eye etc I take to mean rupa which is why I wondered what mind would be. If it means the eye base etc then I assume it must mean heart base.   However if it means the citta which sees etc  than it does mean all the other cittas that do not arise at the sense bases.    Have I got this right?

           Appreciate the Zoom discussions, generally with a lot of attachment and as the above sutta states;
     "See them trembling over things taken as 'mine'.  They tremble when they are anxious about being deprived of an object taken as 'mine';  they tremble when being deprived of it.......

 Live for understanding
Azita



Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Sarah Abbott
 

Roti

 
Roti: The “All”?
S:  SN IV. (Salaayatanavagga) 23 (1), Bodhi Transl.  "The All"
 
At Saavatthı. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the all.[*6] Listen to that….
 
“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.
 
“If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’—that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.”
 
*6 Spk: 
The all (sabba) is fourfold: 
(i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e., everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha’s knowledge of omniscience; 
(ii) the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the four planes; 
(iii) the all of personal identity (sakkaayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and 
(iv) the partial all (padesasabba), i.e., the five physical sense objects. 
Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. 
In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended.
 
The four planes are the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbaana).


Sarah
 


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Roti
 

Dear Sarah,

Sarah: ...the "All"...

Roti: The “All”?

Roti
--
Roti


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 

Alberto

 
A: Yes, that's right, thanks Sarah (I've just checked the Pali spelling, is the same for both, as a word for citta and as vatthu rupa, and it's also hadaya, the heart, as the 11th "part" of the body, kesa, loma, nakha...)
S: yes, exactly the same word. (Thx, I made a spelling error later corrected). One is citta, the nāma and one is the subtle rūpa. One of the Vietnamese friends was also getting confused about this point in a discussion too.

On the point you were discussing with Jon about the sotāpanna's understanding or something which you questioned - I remember he was just stressing the point which Nina keeps mentioning is so important with regard to conventional usage in daily life. There's a table and a tree but no misunderstanding that this is anything other than conventional usage. The arahats still know who is who and what is what, even though all doubts and wrong views were eradicated at the stage of sotāpanna. No question that there are only dhammas that are the world "crumbling away" at each moment.

SN 1V, "The World"?

"Then a certain monk came to see the Exalted One.... Seated at one
side that monk said to the Exalted One: 'The world! The world! is
the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?'

" 'It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called the world'.
What crumbles away? The eye... objects...

eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or
neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... tongue... body...
mind... It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called the
world'."

Sarah
 


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

alberto
 

Hi Sarah,
 
S: Yes, hadaya is a synonym for citta, the innermost nāma, manāyatana
This is not to be confused with the subtle rūpa, haddāya which arises in a group conditioned by kamma and is the vatthu (base) for all cittas in this realm aparat from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. As a subtle rūpa it's dhammāyatana, the outer āyatana.
 
A: Yes, that's right, thanks Sarah (I've just checked the Pali spelling, is the same for both, as a word for citta and as vatthu rupa, and it's also hadaya, the heart, as the 11th "part" of the body, kesa, loma, nakha...)
 
Alberto


Re: Different views..

alberto
 

Hi Jon,
 
J: There's a lot in that passage.  Is there a particular part of it that you have in mind?
 
A: I think Ajahn's was just a general reminder not to forget that what we (you, me,...) still take for the world, even right now, is not what the Buddha knew and taught about the world.
 
J: In your earlier message in this thread you referred to "our different views about if/how life would be different after enlightenment, as discussed in today's Zoom meeting".  Would you mind saying something about what your views on this are, so that I can appreciate your position.  Is there any particular comment I made that you'd question or would like to discuss?  Thanks.
 
A: Keeping in mind Ajahn's reminder, no matter what view I (or you, or...) would express to counter the one you (or I, or...) have expressed, no matter the words or even the meaning, there would still be all the conditions for it to be tainted by lobha (and, being a view, by ditthi as well). I'm thinking of the "only this (view) is right, all others are wrong" view in suttas.
 
Alberto
 


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

alberto
 

Hi Lukas,
 
L: I meant savaka before, not savaka Buddha.
 
A: Then I think we're savaka at any moment when there's any level of understanding of the teachings of the Buddha beginning with sabbe dhamma anatta.
 
Alberto
 


Re: Zoom jottings 16

Sarah Abbott
 

Friends

(continued from a Vietnamese/English discussion)

Question from Ngoc Dang about pariyatti, reading, listening, hearing  and "then  goes to practice, paṭipatti. Should we notice or practice?

Ajahn Sujin discussed how pariyatti understanding from reading/listening and considering what is true begins from very little right consideration and understanding to "on and on and on". From the beginning it's not "me" or "you" who understands, but understanding arising by conditions leading to paṭipatti understanding and eventually to paṭivedha understanding.

It doesn't matter what level of undersanding, it is the understanding of what appears now - sound or hearing or thinking of whatever reality. Usually because of ignorance it's taken for something all the time.

Pariyatti is not just a word that we're interested to talk about, it's now! Without the Teachings we don't know what is what. We just want to understand the word but don't know what it's about. When we hear the words, there can be the beginning of understanding what is there now. From not knowing anything, there is the beginning of understanding of what is there now.
*****
Qu: Someone mentioned that inside she feels very nervous and always thinks about "I" or "you" or "he" or "she". Also, when there is anger, she tries to be aware and follow the words of the Buddha.

AS: Forget about the words of the Buddha and consider what the truth is there now. There are moments of anger, seeing, thinking and so on. Can it be "I" or someone or some thing?

The way to develop understanding is to understand at this moment. What is there now? What is real now? There's no way to do anything.

Qu: Someone asked how she can accumulate paññā?

AS: Does pañña want anything? Wanting, wishing, craving all the time. Each word should be understood as letting go! Letting go of what? Let go of craving. Whenever there is the idea of "how can I", it indicates no understanding of dhamma.

Hearing and considering leads to firmer confidence. No one can make it happen. Without khanti, sacca, adhitthāna and viriya paramī, it's impossible to understand reality now.

Sarah


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

L: > I only asked the pandara citta and 'Buddha nature' by Mahajana

S: Do they understand that no matter what it's called, each citta arises and falls away and is anatta (or suññata), completely gone, never to return? So any "Buddha nature" must be anicca, dukkha and anattā too.

Sarah


Re: Zoom CN Dhamma discussion Aug. 20th: Innermost

Sarah Abbott
 
Edited

Alberto (& Lukas)

Lukas: Innermost, what was that in Vibhanga? The term for inner most, hadaya? It must be only that in this case while instances of cittas are so compassionate explained by Thathagatha. This cannot be confused with ajjhatta/bahiddha. So only innermost means hadaya I think , like heart, aint it Alberto?
 
Al: Yes I think so too, like in the heart of the matter... innermost!

S: (As discussed a short while ago)

Yes, hadaya is a synonym for citta, the innermost nāma, manāyatana

This is not to be confused with the subtle rūpa, hadaya which arises in a group conditioned by kamma and is the vatthu (base) for all cittas in this realm aparat from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. As a subtle rūpa it's dhammāyatana, the outer āyatana.

Sarah
 
 


Re: Saturday Discussion V, 3.

Sarah Abbott
 

Lukas

S: What are sīla, samādhi and paññā if not conditioned realities? No matter what language the Buddha used, he was always talking about the truth - the truth that whatever arises now is citta, cetasika or rūpa. Nothing else at all

L: Of course, Buddha always taught about Truth, citta, cetasika and rupa. But he used different languages and gradual training. Buddha didn't go to Anathapindika or whoever and say citta,cetasika and rupa. He used conventional language, also he spoke about sila(restraint).
S: Yes, he used different kinds of conventional language according to who he was speaking to, just as we do. You may speak to Alberto about cittas and cetasikas in English but to your mother about different kinds of goodness in Polish.
No matter what words the Buddha used, he was always referring to dhammas which are anattā, the "All".

What is sīla (restraint) if not kusala citta? No one who can restrain or "do" sīla.

L: Otherwise, if it would be like u say then we have only Abhidhamma Pitaka. This is my question, there needs to be a meaning and a point why Buddha taught TI-Pitaka, 3 baskets, not one?
S: Whichever part of the Tipitaka we read it is about dhammas which are conditioned and anattā and to be understood here and now. 

Sarah


Re: Different views..

Jonothan Abbott
 

Hi Alberto

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 12:15 AM, alberto wrote:
Hi Jon,

I'm not sure if it's relevant to the discussion, but here is the transcript of Ajahn's comments after our exchange:

There's a lot in that passage.  Is there a particular part of it that you have in mind?

In your earlier message in this thread you referred to "our different views about if/how life would be different after enlightenment, as discussed in today's Zoom meeting".  Would you mind saying something about what your views on this are, so that I can appreciate your position.  Is there any particular comment I made that you'd question or would like to discuss?  Thanks.

Jon

20-08-22-EN-Z.mp3: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjRRFekC7ghdhS82kzL6CKKobnGB

A. Sujin: I think that no one understand just the truth of each word yet, for example when we talk about the world, is there someone who understand it or everyone understand it? World, what is it? It seems like there is the understanding of the world, but actually what is it? It indicates that we just talk about everything from birth to death but no understanding the truth of what we're talking about. For example the world: it seems like everyone knows the world, what it is, but actually is there anyone who understand the world, because everyone think that they understand the world, but what is it? ...

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