Date   

Re: India Ch 7, no. 4

LBIDD@...
 

Hello Nina,

I've been enjoying this India series very much. One of the many things I
can't get straight in my head is this.

You wrote: "Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls
away at this moment."

Is dukkha the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at
this moment, or is dukkha the characteristic of ignorance of dhamma that
arises and falls away at this moment? Another way of asking this is, is
dhamma ignorance, or, are the ultimate realities of nama and rupa
fundamentally untrue? I tend to think of dukkha as resulting from error
so correct view ought to lead to elimination of dukkha but this
quotation seems to say correct view leads to illumination of dukkha.

Would you sort this out for me? Thanks very much,

Larry


Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor

Victor Yu <victoryu@...>
 

Hi Christine,

I realized that the link didn't really work after I sent out the message.
Anyway, what I did was that I searched for the words "folding", "legs", and
"crosswise" in www.accesstoinsight.org with Google and came up with the
following results:

DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta
... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the ...
Description: The Great Frames of Reference Sutra.
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > Buddhism > Teachings >
Sutras
www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html - 33k - 13 Mar 2002 - Cached -
Similar pages

MN 119: Kayagata-sati Sutta
... the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful
...
Description: Sutra on Mindfulness immersing in the body.
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > Buddhism > Teachings >
Sutras
www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html - 24k - Cached - Similar
pages

Right Mindfulness
... the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs
crosswise,
holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful
...
www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-sati.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

MN 140: Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta
... shed and, setting out a spread of grass to one side, sat down folding
his legs crosswise,
holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. He spent ...
www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html - 22k - Cached - Similar
pages

AN X.60: Girimananda Sutta
... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always ...
www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-060.html - 10k - Cached -
Similar pages

Wings to Awakening: Part II-B
... the foot of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [parimukham: in
...
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html - 97k - Cached - Similar
pages

The Mind Like Fire Unbound
... to the shade of a tree or to an empty building, sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect, & keeping mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful
...
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/likefire/2-3.html - 101k - Cached -
Similar pages

Study Guide: The Four Noble Truths
... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his
legs crosswise,
holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: to the ...
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html - 88k - Cached - Similar pages


I find the description "sitting down folding his legs crosswise, hold his
body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" is closest to what you have
described as formal sitting meditation. And this description, as I see it
so far, is always in the context of mindfulness, specifically mindfulness of
breathing.

As for the definition of right concentration...

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite
withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities --
enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling
of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana:
rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from
directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of
rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically
sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him
the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable
abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier
disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth
jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This
is called right concentration."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html

As I see it, one is mindful in each jhana.

Regards,
Victor

----- Original Message -----
From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor


Hi Victor,
Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear from you.
I am not sure that I have found what you were refering to in your
first link.
I put 'meditation+folding+legs+crosswise'into Google search, and
found only
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/meditation.html
was this what you wanted me to read?
I don't have specific quotes for the words in #3, just that I've
often read them in various contexts, and when trying to find more
precise meanings in the dictionary end up with finding something that
doesn't clearly explain anything, like this:
concentration: sam�dhi (q.v.) - right�, s. sacca (IV. 8), magga
(8). - wrong�, s. micch�-magga (8). You say:
<<Perhaps the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration
necessary for enlightenment?">>
And, then I'm back to question #3 - the definition of 'right
concentration'. :-)

metta,Christine


--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" <victoryu@s...> wrote:
Hi Christine,

Replied in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
wrote:
Dear Group,

Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a
few
questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly
those
whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder
about
the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg
may
be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal
Sitting Meditation that I have questions.

Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the
questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one
hour
sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any
variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a
primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and
anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as
a
secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the
secondary
object passes away or diminishes."
If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they
please
give the scriptural quotes that support their answer?

1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably
shown
by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain
Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably
mean 'formal sitting meditation.'
Hmmm, the only way to achieve liberation/cessation of dukkha, to
gain
enlightenment, as I see it, is the noble eightfold path.

As for the formal sitting meditation as described above, the
Buddha's
instructions that I found is most close to the description of
formal sitting
medition above can be found in some of the references in the link
below. (Please note my search criteria.)

http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=folding+legs+crosswise+site%
3Awww.accesstoinsight.org

I also find Thannisaro Bhikkhu's exposition on The Four Frames of
Reference helpful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html



2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary
for
Enlightenment?
Perhap the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration
necessary for enlightenment?"


Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting
Meditation - or does it happen any other way?
I wouldn't worry about this question at all. I would just do my
best to
follow the instruction of the Buddha as recorded in the discourses.


3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*,
*mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures
interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ?
I think question #3 is interesting. Is it possible to provide the
contexts in
which these words are used?


metta,
Christine
Regards,
Victor


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 - to Howard

howard wasserman
 

Hi, John -

In a message dated 3/14/02 12:55:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
johnrloganis@... writes:


--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote:
Hi, John -

In a message dated 3/12/02 8:25:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnrloganis@y... writes:


In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is
persistence of
consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have
been
a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa".

==========================
Why? ;-)

With metta,
Howard
Hi Howard,

Because!

Seriously because it is a "causal" chain. So there must be a First
Cause, something which started it all in the "first" place. This is
not something like 2+2 = 4 which is a principle which is true whether
or not anything exists.

Ignorance is ignorance of the Dhamma, as I understand it.
The "unborn" is living it and so is not "ignorant" of the Dhamma. The
question really points to "How did it all begin?"

Layman John

============================
There *is no need* for a first cause, and the Dhamma does not assume
one. The chain of dependent arising is, in fact, not a linear chain, but a
cyclic one.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1

tikmok <tikmok@...>
 

Dear Christine,

Don't mind if I add to your excellent thoughts.

-----Original Message-----
From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:49 PM
To: dhammastudygroup@...
Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1


Dear Group,

On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only
monks
but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the
daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years
ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st
Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of
lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but
reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....?
I think if we remember that the Buddha taught dhammas for 45 years of
his life so that all beings (capable of understanding his dhammas) can
too penetrate (eventually) the dhammas as he has (or close enough!),
then we can figure out whether or not to read a particular piece of
teaching. When reading any teaching, be it Vinaya, Suttanta, or
Abhidhamma, each of us may:
1) Misunderstand it
2) Understand it, at different levels, according to his/her own
accumulations
3) A mixture of the above

One teaching that doesn't benefit me (immediately) may benefit you
substantially and vice versa. That's why you may hear from people like
Nina or Jonothan about the "no rules" part, as we benefit (or not)
according to our own accumulations.

[Just an aside......the only English word in the whole of the Canon
that grates on me is "stinginess" - why not use miserliness, or
meanness? On second thought, there's two of them - 'horripilation' is
the other one.]
Another thing that I keep hearing from different people is not to worry
too much about the word if we can understand the meaning. Stinginess
has the particular characteristic no matter what we call it. If we
understand what stinginess is, then no word is required to study
stinginess.

The gem embedded in the Preface is the reiteration of the real
purpose of the study of realities:
"The theory (pariyatti) should encourage us to practice (patipatti)
which is necessary for the realization of the truth (pativedha).
While we are studying the different namas and rupas and while we
are
pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of nama and
rupa
appearing at that moment. In this way we will discover more and
more
that the Abhidhamma is about everything which is real, that is, the
worlds' appearing through the six sense doors."
And that this study "is a process which continues all through life."
It is amazing how you could always pick up the most important point. If
we don't understand this point, then our study of the dhamma is not
fruitful, and can be harmful, like holding a poisonous snake at its tail.
Studying the dhamma for the wrong reason happens often for me, even
if I understand the above statement, in varying degrees. That's why I
get reminded by many many people...


The illustration of the chariot broken down into component parts used
to refute the idea of 'a person' or 'a being' is effective, to a
degree. It increases understanding that what we take for self are
only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. (But, still...., why,
at some level is there a lingering wondering whether it is possible
that 'consciousness' might not retain some on-going identity?). In
The lingering thought/wrong-views about self will continue until we
become sotapanna. As far as I know, even sotapanna still have
lingering thoughts about "this is mine". This tells you how deep rooted
our ignorance is.

I think I am having some difficulty with rupa, physical phenomena,
the third paramattha dhamma - with the understanding of the 'rising
and falling away' part, of seemingly solid objects. I used to try to
understand this by visualising the 'beaming up process' in Star Trek
(sorry Sarah & Jon!) - Where the object is composed of twinkling,
temporary but immediately replaced effervesences.....but, if rupa
only arises when there are right conditions....How do solid objects
last over time? is there an example of conditions changing for a
solid visible object?
I think we will continue to have doubts of various degress about this
point until the vipassana nana that insights the falling away of rupa
arises. Otherwise, we can always deduce. For example, my weight
always fluctuates over a year, sometimes less, sometimes more. This is
because there are varying conditions that cause the rupa to arise.
Although some of the conditions are so similar that I can't tell the
difference (with the conventional observation), but because of the
differnt conditions, the rupas that are the results of the conditions are
different. I also have skin defects that keep surprising me, hey, that
wasn't there a few days ago!

The other way, I think, is to study quantum physics. It seems to me
that how matters are defined are moving toward what the Buddha says
about rupa rising and falling away, but I will be quiet here, as I know
very little about quantum physics anyway.

kom


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1

Lucy <selene@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@...>

I've always wanted to do this..... Usually (just about always) I
ask a question and end up with lots and lots of reading to do.....
(not that I'm complaining..) Joy and delight! Now I can give you
some :-)

Have a look at Khun Sujins'
Realities and Concepts : The Buddha's Explanation of the World
Guess what ! I did last night even before reading your post --- telepathy?
Also Nina's "Understanding Realities"
http://www.abhidhamma.org/understanding%20reality.html

thanks for the suggestion !
Lucy


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 (2)

Lucy <selene@...>
 

Hi all

Since Larry suggested. Here's the next chunk. Obviously we're not satisfied
that we've cleared all the questions the first chunk brought up --- the
questions have multiplied...Did anyone expect it to be otherwise?
(questions are very healthy ! - remember the old Ch'an / Zen saying: "the
greater the questions, the greater the Enlightenment")

Let's read on... (I've taken the liberty to break the paragraph into very
small bits (that's the way I can follow it better - maybe it helps others
too?

[one suggestion here - we have to try not to get too side-tracked into
other topics, most will come later. Have a quick look into the contents of
the book and check the topics that will be coming up later...and save the
questions and comments for that time]

[methinks the main topic here is "realities" (paramatha dhamma) vs.
"concepts" (pannatti)]

----------------------------------------------------------------
All phenomena in and around ourselves are only n�ma and r�pa
which arise and fall away; they are impermanent. N�ma and r�pa
are absolute realities , in P�li: paramattha dhammas .

We can experience their characteristics when they appear, no matter
how we name them; we do not necessarily have to call them
n�ma and r�pa.

Those who have developed "insight" can experience
them as they really are: impermanent and not self. Seeing, hearing,
smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object through the bodysense
and thinking, all these n�mas are impermanent.

We are used to thinking that there is a self who performs different
functions
such as seeing, hearing or thinking; but where is the self? Is it
one of those n�mas?

The more we know different n�mas and
r�pas by experiencing their characteristics, the more will we see
that "self" is only a concept; it is not a paramattha dhamma
(absolute or ultimate reality).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor

christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...>
 

Hi Victor,
Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear from you.
I am not sure that I have found what you were refering to in your
first link.
I put 'meditation+folding+legs+crosswise'into Google search, and
found only
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/meditation.html
was this what you wanted me to read?
I don't have specific quotes for the words in #3, just that I've
often read them in various contexts, and when trying to find more
precise meanings in the dictionary end up with finding something that
doesn't clearly explain anything, like this:
concentration: samádhi (q.v.) - right°, s. sacca (IV. 8), magga
(8). - wrong°, s. micchá-magga (8). You say:
<<Perhaps the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration
necessary for enlightenment?">>
And, then I'm back to question #3 - the definition of 'right
concentration'. :-)

metta,Christine


--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" <victoryu@s...> wrote:
Hi Christine,

Replied in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
wrote:
Dear Group,

Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a
few
questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly
those
whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder
about
the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg
may
be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal
Sitting Meditation that I have questions.

Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the
questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one
hour
sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any
variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a
primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and
anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as
a
secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the
secondary
object passes away or diminishes."
If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they
please
give the scriptural quotes that support their answer?

1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably
shown
by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain
Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably
mean 'formal sitting meditation.'
Hmmm, the only way to achieve liberation/cessation of dukkha, to
gain
enlightenment, as I see it, is the noble eightfold path.

As for the formal sitting meditation as described above, the
Buddha's
instructions that I found is most close to the description of
formal sitting
medition above can be found in some of the references in the link
below. (Please note my search criteria.)

http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=folding+legs+crosswise+site%
3Awww.accesstoinsight.org

I also find Thannisaro Bhikkhu's exposition on The Four Frames of
Reference helpful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html



2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary
for
Enlightenment?
Perhap the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration
necessary for enlightenment?"


Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting
Meditation - or does it happen any other way?
I wouldn't worry about this question at all. I would just do my
best to
follow the instruction of the Buddha as recorded in the discourses.


3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*,
*mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures
interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ?
I think question #3 is interesting. Is it possible to provide the
contexts in
which these words are used?


metta,
Christine
Regards,
Victor


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - Another useful link

Lucy <selene@...>
 

Hi folks

Just found this summary of the seven books of the Ahidhamma Pitaka in
buddhanet
http://www.buddhanet.net/abhidham.htm

Lucy


Re: Memory

Lucy <selene@...>
 

Hi KKT:

I was so intrigued by your question last night that I sent it to a
friend/mentor who's been studying yogacara for 30 years.
I hope nobody minds me posting my friend's reply here, I think it addresses
KKT's follow up question and may give a slightly different view of the
"Alaya consciousness" which is not too at odds with Abhidhamma.

-----------------------------------------------------

KKT:
If memory is a cetasika
and lasts a very brief instant
and then falls away then
how does << recollection >>
or << recognition >> work?

Suppose I meet Mr. X,
an image of X is a cetasika
making a mark in my 'mind'
but lasts only a fleeting moment.

The next time I meet Mr. X,
there is a << recollection >>
or a << recognition >> that
I've already known Mr. X,
that means the << old image >>
of X must be somewhere
in order to have a << comparison >>
between the new image and the old one.
----------------------------------------------------
My friend's answer:

The response depends upon how you accept that past and present moments
present themselves to consciousness. Ths is really the same as asking how
or where do karmic 'seeds' reside.
A cetasika (awareness of a deliberation of mano) does not occur in a
vacuum but draws from various sources occurring within the present moment
of consciousness. Therefore there must be within present c'ness the seeds
for past events to be recreated.

Seeds being a metaphor for the agglomeration of latent forces composed of
events clung to in the present which have occurred in the past.

'Memories' are simply instances of such seeds being reformed (re-collected)
into a present moment of c'ness and acknowledged (re-cognised)

Because each process is 'new' there is the possibility of error in one's
memory. .

----------------------------------------------

KKT (2):

If memory and kamma are
<< never lost >> then logically
they must be << stored up >>
somewhere ?

I know that this << somewhere >>
is out of question in Abhidhamma,
not like in Yogacara of Mahayana
where a Storehouse Consciousness
(Alayavijnana) was postulated.
-------------------------------------------

In my friend's (and other people's) interpretation, based on the original
works of Asanga and Vasubandhu, the "Storehouse Consciousness" is not a
static, unchanging "store" of past events (that would be more the
Sarvastivadin view). It is a dynamic, always changing, trail of
"latencies" - Note my friend talks of "seeds" being "re-formed", they arise
anew in a present moment based on present conditions and latent forces
created by past kamma / events. They're not picked up by consciousness from
anywhere else. Thus, the "memory" is never identical to the past event.
Best wishes
Lucy


Re: conditions for jhana- Herman

Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...>
 

op 12-03-2002 05:39 schreef egberdina op hhofman@...:
Dear Sarah,....
I recently read an unreferenced statement along these lines : Only a
person who has a rebirth thought with three roots can experience
jhana. Any ideas what sutta or comentary this would be based on?
Ha Herman, I had to laugh when reading your post, because I thought of Mount
Everest. I do not want to discourage you.
Sarah, I hope you do not mind that I am butting in here, my excuse is Mount
Everest.
The Vis. V, 40, : 'No kasina can be developed by any living being described
as follows: Beings hindered by kamma, by defilement or by kamma-result, who
lack faith, zeal and understanding, will be incapable of entering into the
certainty of rightness in profitable states." (Vibhanga. 341)
Here the Vis. quotes from the Vibhanga, the Book of Analysis, the second
Book of the Abhidhamma, but there it is spoken of in the context of
attaining enlightenment. In par. 41, the Vis gives further explanations,
kamma being very heavy kamma such as murder of parents, that have an
immediate effect. And as to vipaka: "By kamma-result: who have had a
rebirth-linking with no profitable root-cause or with only two profitable
root-causes."
Thus, those who are not born with three beautiful roots, including pa~n~naa,
cannot attain jhana nor enlightenment.
In Vis. par. 42: "And this does not apply only to kasinas; for none of them
will succeed in developing any meditation subject at all. So the task of
devotion to a meditation subject must be undertaken by a clansman who has no
hindrance by kamma-result, who shuns hindrance by kamma and by defilement,
and who fosters faith, zeal and understanding by listening to the Dhamma,
frequenting good men, and so on." End quote.
Hindrance by defilement applies to the defilement of fixed wrong view, this
was explained before.
We do not know whether we were born with wisdom or not. This conditions our
whole life, because the succeeding life-continuum is of the same type of
vipakacitta and so on throughout life. The wisdom someone is born with is
vipaka, result, but still, it conditions one's life. We are born with
different potentialities, we cannot choose this. But also those born with
two beautiful roots can develop understanding and also samatha in daily
life.
For samatha to the degree of jhana great understanding is needed: pa~n~naa
has to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and it has to
know all the different conditions for attaining calm by means of a
meditation subject.
Seeing conditionality in all things is sobering. Speaking of conditions, I
admired the way you took the troubles with your job. I enjoyed your Dhamma
letter off list you wrote some time ago, being reminded by gardening (like
Christine) of conditions that have to be right for the growing of plants. I
hope conditions are favorable for your new business. My father appreciated
your regards, and Oscar, very thoughtful. We played the Haydn Variations of
Brahms for two pianos, and this could distract my father from the sufferings
of his extremely old age. Here we see again that cittas are entirely
different because of different conditions.
Best wishes from Nina.


India Ch 7, no. 4

Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...>
 

We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (V, The Great Chapter, Kindred Sayings
about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the Kingdom of the Dhamma), that
the Buddha, when he was dwelling at Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained
to the five disciples the four noble Truths.
The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Såratthappakåsiní, explains about three
³rounds² or intertwined phases 1 of realizing the four noble Truths:

knowledge of the truth, sacca ñåna
knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca ñåna
knowledge of the task that has been done, kata ñåna 2

We read in the Sutta referred to above (in § 2) that the Buddha, after he
explained the four noble Truths, said:

Monks, at the thought: This is the noble Truth about dukkha, - there arose
in me, concerning things unlearnt before by Tathågatas 3, vision, insight,
understanding and wisdom, there arose in me light.
Monks, at the thought: This noble Truth about dukkha is to be understood...
At the thought: This noble Truth about dukkha has been understood (by me),-
there arose in me, concerning things unlearnt before by Tathågatas, vision,
insight, understanding and wisdom, there arose in me light.

Monks, at the thought: This is the noble Truth about the arising of
dukkha... there arose in me light.
Monks, at the thought: This arising of dukkha must be put away...
Monks, at the thought: This arising of dukkha has been put away... there
arose in me light.

In the same way the Buddha explained about the third noble Truth, the
ceasing of dukkha: the comprehension of it, knowledge of the task, namely,
that it is to be realized, and knowledge that it has been realized. He
explained about the fourth noble Truth, the way leading to the ceasing of
dukkha: the comprehension of it, knowledge of the task, namely that it has
to be developed, and knowledge that it has been developed.

Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ³rounds² or phases and
explained that without the first phase, the firm understanding of what the
four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase, the performing of
the task, that is, satipatthåna, nor the third phase, the fruit of the
practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of realities.
With regard to the first phase, she said that there should be the firm
intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that means
understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that everything that
appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and
falls away at this moment. We cannot control what has arisen because of
conditions. It only lasts for an extremely short time, it has to fall away.
When seeing appears there cannot be hearing, hearing must have fallen away.
There can only be one citta at a time experiencing an object. Seeing,
hearing or thinking are insignificant dhammas that arise just for an
extremely short moment and are then gone. They are impermanent and thus
dukkha, unsatisfactory.


Deluded clarification assistance

mikebrotherto <mike@...>
 

Greetings!

I have been mindfully reflecting on the seemingly subtle differences
between three deluded mental experiences. I currently feel that it is
skillful to reflect even on one's deluded experiences (in my case,
what else is there to reflect on?!?). With that, could someone help me
differentiate between:

1. ego/mano/conceit (I think these are the same, yes/no?)
2. sakkaya-ditthi - personality belief
3. atta - self

I was on retreat the past 8 days with Bhante Gunaratana. (Look in the
dictionary under mindfulness and you see his picture. Even when he
pulled his socks up, I went into complete body mudra bliss.) I asked
him how the word "ego" fit into Buddhist psychology. He told me that
"ego" was the same as conceit - one of the last fetters to go; that
one will have a sense of ego even if one is a "non-returner".

That helped because I have been confusing atta with ego for the past
30 years. Now, I can't seem to fit personality belief - sakkaya-ditthi
- into the scheme of insanity. Could someone gently help clarify
these experiences? Thank you so much.

With Metta,
Mike B.


Re: Memory

Luan D. Pham
 

Dear Sarah,


<<
From: sarahdhhk@... (Sarah)


Dear KKT,

Firstly, welcome to dsg...I think this is your first post here;-)



KKT: Thanks for the welcome :-)
---------------

--- phamdluan@... wrote:
>
> Dear everyone,
>
> > I have a question:
>
> What is exactly memory in Abhidhamma?
>
> Thank you.


Usually memory is a translation of sa~n~na cetasika (mental factor of
perception/memory). As I was discussing with Frank, the way we use these
terms normally or in psychology or medicine is rather different from how
they are used in the Suttas and Abhidhamma.

In these texts, perception/memory arises at every single moment with the
citta (consciousness), lasts a very brief instant and falls away. Its task
is to mark the object like a 'woodcutter marking logs'. So, actually, even
when it seems that there is no memory or we're 'unconscious' of what we're
doing, there is still at these moments sanna (perception) performing its
marking task.

>>



KKT: The reason of my question is that:

If memory is a cetasika
and lasts a very brief instant
and then falls away then
how does << recollection >>
or << recognition >> work?


Suppose I meet Mr. X,
an image of X is a cetasika
making a mark in my 'mind'
but lasts only a fleeting moment.

The next time I meet Mr. X,
there is a << recollection >>
or a << recognition >> that
I've already known Mr. X,
that means the << old image >>
of X must be somewhere
in order to have a << comparison >>
between the new image and the old one.


Hope that it makes sense :-))


Best regards,


KKT


Yahoo Groups suspension of service this weekend

Jonothan Abbott
 

Dear All

As Larry has already mentioned, there will be a
suspension of the Yahoo Groups service this weekend
(Friday, March 15, 9:00 PM PST (GMT-8) until the
morning of Sunday March 17).

Please keep posting as usual if you can, but expect
some delay as it can take several days for posts to
come through to the list (please avoid reposting your
message during this period).

Jon & Sarah

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maintenance Friday, March 15, 9:00 PM PST (GMT-8) as
we move our servers to a new facility. We expect the
service to be restored the morning of Sunday March 17.

During this time the web site will be unavailable and
email will not be delivered. (Some users may
experience email non-delivery notices while the
service is down, but all email should be delivered
once service is resumed.) Please note: once the
service is restored, there will be email delays due to
backlog. We expect these delays to last no longer than
1 day. Please do not re-send email to your group as
this will only add to delays.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
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Abhidhamma articles, books, websites

christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...>
 

Dear Group,

Here is a link to articles, books, and websites on Abhidhamma that
may be useful:

http://www.btinternet.com/~maunglwin/tptkabdm.htm

metta,
Christine


KenO

christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...>
 

Hi KenO,

Just to comment you sound soooo relaxed. What's your secret? A
Dhamma break-through you should tell us about?
Whatever it is, your posts are having a very soothing effect on
me......

Thanks and metta,
Chris


Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1

christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...>
 

Dear Group,

I started with the Preface first. (A habit developed when reading
Bhikkhu Bodhi - often his prefaces and introductions are just as
interesting as the rest of the book.)
On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only monks
but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the
daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years
ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st
Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of
lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but
reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....?

[Just an aside......the only English word in the whole of the Canon
that grates on me is "stinginess" - why not use miserliness, or
meanness? On second thought, there's two of them - 'horripilation' is
the other one.]

The gem embedded in the Preface is the reiteration of the real
purpose of the study of realities:
"The theory (pariyatti) should encourage us to practice (patipatti)
which is necessary for the realization of the truth (pativedha).
While we are studying the different namas and rupas and while we are
pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of nama and rupa
appearing at that moment. In this way we will discover more and more
that the Abhidhamma is about everything which is real, that is, the
worlds' appearing through the six sense doors."
And that this study "is a process which continues all through life."

ADL CH.1 "The Four Paramattha Dhammas"

The illustration of the chariot broken down into component parts used
to refute the idea of 'a person' or 'a being' is effective, to a
degree. It increases understanding that what we take for self are
only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. (But, still...., why,
at some level is there a lingering wondering whether it is possible
that 'consciousness' might not retain some on-going identity?). In
developing understanding of Anatta, what has been of most benefit to
me is continuing to study 'conditionality' and gradually being
brought to accept that I have no certain, solitary, independent,
control of any thing.

I think I am having some difficulty with rupa, physical phenomena,
the third paramattha dhamma - with the understanding of the 'rising
and falling away' part, of seemingly solid objects. I used to try to
understand this by visualising the 'beaming up process' in Star Trek
(sorry Sarah & Jon!) - Where the object is composed of twinkling,
temporary but immediately replaced effervesences.....but, if rupa
only arises when there are right conditions....How do solid objects
last over time? is there an example of conditions changing for a
solid visible object?

The distinction between nama and rupa is deceptively simple, don't
you think? Nama is mental phenomena, rupa physical phenomena - it is
so easy to (as I did) slip into thinking rupa is therefore a solid
object, which meant initially I used to think of 'sound' as nama. So -
going back to basics and looking at the full definition "Nama
experiences something; rupa does not experience anything", has been
clarifying and 'sound' is clearly seen to be rupa.

metta,
Christine


Re: study program

christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...>
 

Hi Larry,

Yes, I think Chapter 1 will take a while. But don't stress about it,
just post and ask questions until we all feel that it's time to move
on. I already have more thoughts to consider from Lucy and L. Johns'
posts. And every chapter will take a different length of time. I
think I'll just take KenO's advice and relax with it all... :-)

metta,
Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote:
Hi Christine and all,

As soon as I started reading, it occurred to me that there is way
too
much material to discuss the whole chapter at once. But I don't know
exactly how to proceed. I was thinking maybe just a couple of
paragraphs
or so a week. What do you, and everyone else, want to do?

On a procedural note, if it's not too much trouble, someone could
email
the section we are going to study in html without comment so it's
exactly the same as the web version and we could also number the
paragraphs so there would be an archived version with numbered
paragraphs, making it easy to search. I don't know how to do this;
it's
a little difficult with my gear. So someone else would have to do
it if
you think it is worth while.

What's the consensus? Any of you teachers, or anyone else, have any
suggestions?

Larry


Re: jhana- Herman

Sarah <sarahdhhk@...>
 

Thanks Kom:-)

Take your word for it (I was being a little lazy to pull out and check)..

Like my 'guardian angel' watching over me.....

Look f/w to more

Hey Herman, pls address the tricky ones to Kom;-)

Sarah

--- Kom Tukovinit <tikmok@...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,

Ah ha. Gotcha. ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@...]

(roots). In the human realm, it is always the
result of kusala (wholesome)
kamma and always accompanied by the roots of
alobha (non-attachment) and
adosa (non-aversion), but not necessarily by
wisdom.
There is also the third ahetuka (not accompanied by the
roots) kusala vipaka, which will result in rebirth in the
lower pleasant realm (human and the first heavenly plane),
but with some deficiency (mute, deaf, blind,
mentally-deficient, etc.).

kom


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Re: Concentration

Kom Tukovinit
 

Dear Ken O,

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:10 PM
To: dhammastudygroup@...
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration


Hi Howard

With due respect, there are the same :).

regards
Ken O

--- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Ken -

In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
ashkenn@... writes:


Hi Victor and Howard

In my own opinion, if a mind is truly
mindful, it is called right
concentration, resulting there is no difference.
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
With all respect, I disagree with the
literal meaning of what you
say
here. Right Concentration is specifically
defined in the suttas as the
first
four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the
arising of Right
Concentration
(and Right Concentration supports mindfulness),
but they are not the
same.
--------------------------------------------------------
In the abhidhamma classification, mindfullness (sati) is
distinctly different from concentration (samathi). Right
concentration necessarily co-arises with right mindfulness,
but they have distinct characteristics, albeit conditioned
by one another.

From Nina's Cetasikas:

Sati:
Mindfulness has �not floating away� as its characteristic,
unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of
facing the
object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sa���) or
application
in mindfulness as regards the body, etc. , as proximate
cause. It should
be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in
the object,
and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.

Samathi:
This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has
non-scattering
(of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as
characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent
states as
function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and
peace of
mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said:
�He who is
concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.� It is
distinguished by
having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause
2.
Like thesteadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so
should steadfastness of
mind be understood.

kom


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