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About Spanish Stations MMSI's... Your attention, please!.

mmolano2000
 

Hi,
The following was already posted on Aug. 2nd in a reply to a Peter's message.
It seems few people read it as the same mistakes are repeated and repeated and...
Here I go again:

The HF DSC service in Spain is manned by CELLNEX coast station MADRID RADIO (yes, Madrid Radio not
Coruña as everybody reports). MADRID RADIO is one of the Coast Stations remotely operated from
CORUÑA CCR (Centro de Comunicaciones Radiomarítimas... in English: RCC, Radiomaritime Communications
Center... do not confuse with the other meaning of RCC: Rescue Coordination Center). From Coruña CCR are
operated all stations in northern Spain (VHF & MF), MADRID RADIO (HF) and some voice services of TARIFA
RADIO in sothern Spain. All DSC operations (V-M-HF) manned by CORUÑA CCR are under the same MMSI:
002241022. All 8 & 12 MHz DSC are from MADRID RADIO remotely operated by CORUÑA CCR.
So, on HF 002241022 is MADRID RADIO/EHY but on MF it could be FINISTERRE RADIO/EAF, CORUÑA RADIO/EAR
or MACHICHACO RADIO. The only way to know which MF station reached your aerial is asking CORUÑA CCR!.

The same with 002241026 and 002241024. 002241024 is the common MMSI for all stations remotely manned by
VALENCIA CCR (on MF: CABO LA NAO RADIO/EAV, PALMA RADIO/EAO and CABO DE GATA RADIO).
002241026 is the common MMSI for all stations remotely manned by LAS PALMAS CCR: on MF LAS PALMAS RADIO/EAL
& ARRECIFE RADIO in the Canary Islands, and TARIFA RADIO/EAC in mainland Spain. So a big number of DSC
reported as LAS PALMAS RADIO are in fact from TARIFA RADIO. Again, the only way to know which MF station
reached your aerial is asking the respective CCR.

So, more clearly:

Manned by CORUÑA CCR:
002241022 HF MADRID RADIO/EHY
002241022 MF FINISTERRE RADIO/EAF, CORUÑA RADIO/EAR or MACHICHACO RADIO

Manned by VALENCIA CCR:
002241024 MF CABO LA NAO RADIO/EAV, PALMA RADIO/EAO or CABO DE GATA RADIO

Manned by LAS PALMAS CCR:
002241026 MF LAS PALMAS RADIO/EAL & ARRECIFE RADIO (CNR) or TARIFA RADIO/EAC (E)

SASEMAR, public org. for search and rescue.
SASEMAR (MRCCs & MRSCs) only operate DSC on VHF and MF (not all) and are small scale facilities.
SASEMAR MRCC & MRSC stations:
002240991       E       [MRCC Barcelona]
002240992       E       [MRSC La Coruña]
002240993       E       [MRCC Finisterre]
002240994       E       [MRCC Tarifa]
002240995       CNR     [MRCC Las Palmas]
002240996       E       [MRCC Bilbao]
002240997       E       [MRCC Gijón]
002240998       E       [MRSC Vigo]
002241001       E       [MRSC Algeciras]
002241002       E       [MRCC Almería]
002241003       E       [MRSC Cartegena]
002241004       E       [MRCC Valencia]
002241005       E       [MRCC Palma Mallorca]
002241006       E       [MRSC Tarragona]
002241007       CNR     [MRCC Tenerife]
002241008       E       [MRCC Madrid]
002241009       E       [MRSC Santander]
002241011       E       [MRSC Cádiz]
002241012       E       [MRSC Huelva]
002241016       E       [MRSC Castellón]

You can still see lots of DSC calls from ships to MMSIs not in use anymore, like:
002241021 (old Bilbao Radio), 002241023 (old Málaga Radio) or 002241078 (old Madrid Radio).

I am attaching the CELLNEX informative folder (It is on Files section).


73!
 
Mauricio Molano
Salamanca
ESPAÑA - SPAIN
RX site:  Aldea del Cano, Cáceres.
LAT:  39º17'09.70 N    LONG: 6º19'00 W
RX: PERSEUS.   ANT: WELLBROOK ALA1530S+
(http://moladx.blogspot.com/)

John Pumford-Green
 

On 21/12/2019 20:46, mmolano2000 via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi,
The following was already posted on Aug. 2nd in a reply to a Peter's
message.
It seems few people read it as the same mistakes are repeated and
repeated and...
Here I go again:
The only way to know which MF station reached your
aerial is asking CORUÑA CCR!.

So, more clearly:

/*Manned by CORUÑA CCR:*/
002241022 */HF/* MADRID RADIO/EHY
002241022 *MF* FINISTERRE RADIO/EAF, CORUÑA RADIO/EAR or MACHICHACO RADIO

/*Manned by VALENCIA CCR:*/
002241024 MF CABO LA NAO RADIO/EAV, PALMA RADIO/EAO or CABO DE GATA RADIO

/*Manned by LAS PALMAS CCR:*/
002241026 MF LAS PALMAS RADIO/EAL & ARRECIFE RADIO (CNR) or TARIFA
RADIO/EAC (E)

Hi Mauricio

Thanks for the repeat of your excellent information about the current status of Spanish DSC. It is a good description of the arrangements in Spain for those who want to study these things.

Regarding reports to the DSC List/REU I'm not sure what you mean by "the same mistakes are repeated and repeated again", though.

As you know, with a DSC message the only identifier we can use to report reception of a Coast Station is the MMSI.

This is the only thing sent in the message itself that tells us the origin of the message, and as such it's the only thing we should /really/ be listing on a log:

To be accurate we should really submit our logs like:

20191221 0042 2187.5 002241022
20191221 0136 2187.5 002241024
20191221 0322 2187.5 002241026


This is the only unambiguous way of describing what we've received.

However - people like to give names to things, to connect a MMSI to a Coast Station.

This is ONLY for the sake of our human brains, e.g. to make it easier when reading other people's reports - we prefer to use a "name" rather than a "number".

But for the sake of DSC logging the "name" is not important.

ONLY THE MMSI MATTERS.

It's the only thing contained in the DSC message to identify the sender.

In regards the excellent information you've supplied about the current Spanish system:

You tell us:

Manned by CORUÑA CCR: 002241022

Manned by VALENCIA CCR: 002241024

Manned by LAS PALMAS CCR: 002241026


Regardless of which of several remote Transmitters/Coast Stations is being used, the only thing we can be sure about is the MMSI and therefore which of the three CCRs is responsible for the message.

For these MMSIs : 002241022, 002241024 and 002241026 most (all?) people are reporting them like:

20191221 0042 2187.5 002241022 Coruna Radio, Spain
20191221 0136 2187.5 002241024 Valencia Radio, Spain
20191221 0322 2187.5 002241026 Las Palmas Radio, Spain


This doesn't tell us which transmitter/coast station was really used - and as you tell us:

Valencia : 002241024 : MF CABO LA NAO RADIO/EAV, PALMA RADIO/EAO or CABO DE GATA RADIO

I don't care to dig any deeper into things on a routine basis, for each received message - so I'm happy that in general "002241024 = Valencia"

Are you suggesting we should only report 002241024 as one of "MF CABO LA NAO RADIO/EAV, PALMA RADIO/EAO or CABO DE GATA RADIO", and therefore only after obtaining confirmation from the CCR?

That isn't going to happen!

You could argue that "Coruna Radio" should perhaps change to "Coruna CCR". This is a minor change and not really important.

We still only know that 002241022 = "Coruna" 002241024 = "Valencia" or 002241026 = "Las Palmas"

All that actually matters, though, is the reporting of the basic MMSI, since that's the only thing that we have to truly identify the sender.

The "name" is just a convenience for us. Over the years the allocation of MMSI to Coast Station/Transmitter often changes due to the organisation of each country's own internal system. We do try to follow these, but when these changes become "difficult" to handle (the UK is a good example of these "difficult" changes) all we can do is stick with what we already know & use.... so we stick with

002241022 Coruna Radio, Spain
002241024 Valencia Radio, Spain
002241026 Las Palmas Radio, Spain

The name really isn't important.

The MMSI is what matters

In case I've misunderstood your message, how would you prefer us to give names to :

002241022
002241024
002241026

without needing to confirm each message's source with the CCR each time?

We need a single name to allocate to a each MMSI, a name that will be used to describe that MMSI in the same way each time.


Cheers,

John



--
http://www.yaddnet.org/index.php

Richard Ware
 

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:46, mmolano2000 via Groups.Io
<mmolano2000=yahoo.es@groups.io> wrote:

Hi,
The following was already posted on Aug. 2nd in a reply to a Peter's message.
It seems few people read it as the same mistakes are repeated and repeated and...
--------------

WHAT mistakes?
What are we (allegedly) doing wrong?

The coast station's name plays no part in the DSC message. It never has

With regards to 'right MMSI number, wrong name'...
How would you like us to report Corsen then (002275300) ?
Official documents show Corsen as the *receiving* station.
The transmitting station is at Ouessant (Ushant)
So, when we log 002275300 are we hearing Corsen or Ushant?
Who cares?
I certainly don't.
It's only a hobby, anyway

Just my few euros-worth

Rich

mmolano2000
 

Hi Richard, John,

>WHAT mistakes?
>What are we (allegedly) doing wrong?...

Things like this:
002241024 Valencia Radio, E, 1564 Km
002241026  2909 Las Palmas Radio, CNR
8414.5  002241022  1079  Coruna Radio, ESP
...

Nobody can calculate distances without knowing the point originating a signal. Yes, you have a MMSI
but you don´t know wich station has done the transmission. And each possible transmitting station
is hundreds of km away of each other transmitting the same MMSI... in the 002241026 case between
Las Palmas (CNR) and Tarifa in mainland Spain are around 1300 km so labeling "Las Palmas Radio"
and calculating any distance it is clearly inacurate and a mistake.
In the HF station case, you have available the official info calling it "MADRID RADIO" and placed in
the center of Spain, close to Madrid, around 500 away from La Coruña so insisting in labeling this HF
station as "Coruña Radio" is again inacurate and a mistake.

I am not going to say what you must do but I can say what I would do:

002241024 MEDITERRANEAN SPANISH STATION
002241026 TARIFA(E)-LAS PALMAS/ARRECIFE(CNR)  or  SOUTH SPAIN OR CANARY IS. STATION
002241022 NORTH SPAIN MF-MADRID RADIO HF

and obviously forget about calculating distances without knowing the originating station. The same way
as is already done with other shared MMSI as:
002570000 Public Correspondence, NOR, -- Km
for example.

things are as they are!

73!
 
Mauricio Molano
Salamanca
ESPAÑA - SPAIN
RX site:  Aldea del Cano, Cáceres.
LAT:  39º17'09.70 N    LONG: 6º19'00 W
RX: PERSEUS.   ANT: WELLBROOK ALA1530S+
(http://moladx.blogspot.com/)

John Pumford-Green
 

Hi again Mauricio,

Yes, I agree that it is pointless to add distances to DSC reception reports. I don't do it myself for the very reason that there is nowadays no way to know exactly where a particular DSC message, bearing a particular Coast Station MMSI, was actually transmitted from.

I think most people who /do/ report distances are using a particular logging program (WWSU ?) which does the calculation based on a fairly unreliable database of Coast Station MMSI vs. location.

I attempted to make a similar list a few years ago, using information from:

ITU MARS Database, GMDSS Master List, Admiralty List of Radio Signals, REU/RWW database.

It is impossible to make such a list.

Here is my rough attempt:

http://www.yaddnet.org/pages/php/test/mmsi_coast.php

The positions for many of the MMSIs is actually for one of the many available locations that may be used to transmit the message, or might be for a single MRCC/CRC associated with the MMSI. Or may be something in between. Trying to compile the list made me aware of how futile it is to tie an MMSI to a physical location.

I would suggest you/we just ignore the distances reported by list members on their logs. Some people are interested in (even inaccurate) distances. They mean nothing except as a rough guide and if someone finds them useful or interesting why should we complain at their use?

This is true for ALMOST ALL reported DSC Coast Station MMSIs, not just for the Spanish MMSIs you've highlighted.


I disagree that we should change the "common names" we use to describe particular MMSIs in an attempt to indicate the origin of the signal as you describe.

Since it it not possible to know the actual origin we might as well continue to assign a "customary" name to the MMSIs we see regularly rather than add long strings of text showing (some of) the available choices for each MMSI.

I have decided that in cases such as Spain, Australia, Norway etc. that I will generally just use the originating RCC/MRCC/CRC as the "common name" and forget about trying to tie it down any closer.

So for the Spanish stations in question we "know" that a DSC message from 002241026 originated from Las Palmas CRC. It may have been transmitted from one of several transmitting stations. We can't know which one. Why is it important to indicate on the logging submitted to the list that it may have come from one of several transmitters?

Expanding beyond Spanish stations

I'd be interested to know what /you/ do about, for example:

002320001


This /was/ Shetland Coastguard's MMSI.

Nowadays this MMSI can be transmitted by/on behalf of ANY UK Coastguard Station. It can be transmitted from ANY of the UK Coastguard MF transmitter sites

Does this means that /you/ would log it as:

002320001 "UK Coastguard : Falmouth/Scillies, Belfast or Stormoway/Tiree or Butt of Lewis, Shetland/Lerwick or Collafirth Hill, Aberdeen/St Margaret's Hope or Gregness, Humber/Cullercoats, Thames/Thames, Yarmouth/Langham"

if you want to cover some of the possible sites involved.

The same for all the other UK Coastguard MMSIs which are all those between 002320001 and 002320024

That's 23 possible MMSIs for the UK, any and all of which can be used on DSC messages originating at any and all UK MRCC(CGOC) stations, and transmitted at different times from any and all UK based MF transmitter sites.

What do you do?

I choose to stick to "002320001 = Shetland Coastguard", "002320004 = Aberdeen Coastguard" etc. even though in general this will often be wrong. It's just a shorthand for describing particular MMSIs rather than a definitive description of the origin of a DSC message.

Similarly for almost ALL modern DSC Coast Stations. It is impossible to assign accurate names to most MMSIs.

So why try to?

We just use names that mean something to us.

If many people are comfortable to use "002241026 = Las Palmas" then that seems a reasonable position.

All that matters is the MMSI, not the name.

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree that :

"Calculating and reporting distance is, and always has been, rather pointless for DSC."

For NDBs, Navtex and DGPS it is possible to know specific station/transmitter locations, and therefore calculate distances, but not for DSC.


It's good to bring these things up from time to time, as it makes it known to people that DSC isn't as straightforward as it might first appear!

Cheers,

John

On 22/12/2019 12:29, mmolano2000 via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Richard, John,

>WHAT mistakes?
>What are we (allegedly) doing wrong?...
Things like this:
/002241024 Valencia Radio, E, 1564 Km/
/002241026  2909 Las Palmas Radio, CNR/
/8414.5  002241022  1079  Coruna Radio, ESP
...
/Nobody can calculate distances without knowing the point originating a signal. Yes, you have a MMSI
but you don´t know wich station has done the transmission. And each possible transmitting station
is hundreds of km away of each other transmitting the same MMSI... in the /002241026 /case between
Las Palmas (CNR) and Tarifa in mainland Spain are around 1300 km so labeling "Las Palmas Radio"
and calculating any distance it is clearly inacurate and a mistake.
In the HF station case, you have available the official info calling it "MADRID RADIO" and placed in
the center of Spain, close to Madrid, around 500 away from La Coruña so insisting in labeling this HF
station as "Coruña Radio" is again inacurate and a mistake.
I am not going to say what you must do but I can say what I would do:
/002241024 MEDITERRANEAN SPANISH STATION
//002241026 TARIFA(E)-LAS PALMAS/ARRECIFE(CNR)  or  SOUTH SPAIN OR CANARY IS. STATION
//002241022 NORTH SPAIN MF-MADRID RADIO HF
/and obviously forget about calculating distances without knowing the originating station. The same way
as is already done with other shared MMSI as:
/002570000 Public Correspondence, NOR, -- Km/
for example.
things are as they are!
73!
Mauricio Molano
Salamanca
ESPAÑA - SPAIN
RX site:  Aldea del Cano, Cáceres.
LAT:  39º17'09.70 N    LONG: 6º19'00 W
RX: PERSEUS.   ANT: WELLBROOK ALA1530S+
(http://moladx.blogspot.com/)

mmolano2000
 

Hi John,
for me it is all about a minimun of accuracy. Or, at least, being as accurate as possible.
But, well, if all consists in reporting "numbers" it would be simpler to report
"002241026 SOUTH SPAIN & CNR", "002241024 NORTH SPAIN", "002241022 EAST SPAIN" (not so long letters strings)...
or even simpler: "002241026 SPAIN, 002241024 SPAIN, 002241022 SPAIN".
The UK?... (May be I have overlooked something but the last info I have about UK DSC service is from "UPDATES TO
ADMIRALTY LIST OF RADIO SIGNALS Weekly Edition No. 30 dated 26 July 2018" in form of maps,
and it still shows
the UK DSC numbers in a regionalized way
) simply: "002320001 to 002320024 UK CG" because if any number can come
from any UK station is a non sense to label it with a particular geographical name...
Anyway, as we say in Spanish: ¡Para gustos, los colores! (quick translation: There is a colour for each taste!)

Merry Christmas and a new year full of new MMSI numbers!

73!
 
Mauricio Molano
Salamanca
ESPAÑA - SPAIN
RX site:  Aldea del Cano, Cáceres.
LAT:  39º17'09.70 N    LONG: 6º19'00 W
RX: PERSEUS.   ANT: WELLBROOK ALA1530S+
(http://moladx.blogspot.com/)