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From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
-Rob
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klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" <kimmich46@...> wrote:
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
-Rob
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Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
|
klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
Rob,
Yes rather done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have posted some more images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from Monterey U.S.A.
The Ruth Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a severe rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still rubbish at Photography but suffices to make the point.
Klaus
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...> wrote:
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems
a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb"
containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the
slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...>wrote:
**
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey,
Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms
of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or
stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to
learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347
µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on
Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
-Rob
|
|
|
Hi Rob,
If you do not have a digital copy of Schmidt's Atlas I can send a CD your way via snail mail.
Charles
From: Rob Kimmich
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Sun, February 24, 2013 1:43:08 AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the
books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
|
Rob and Klaus, I have been studying your images with a great deal of interest, Rob, and I find them very perplexing! I think you are very correct in pointing out the peculiar nature of the terminal area in this specimen -- it looks quite unlike that of a typical Cymbella! The very large size suggests that it is not C. mexicana. The shortened alternating striae certainly suggest that species, but also suggest the closely related (and much larger) C. janischii. However, it really doesn't look much like either of those species when we get right down to it. I cannot interpret the central area very well from your image. If it is one of these two species,
then it should have a single stigma near the middle of the central nodule, not ventral to it as in the majority of Cymbella species. If it were C. janischii, then it would have greatly elongated foramina on the ventral margin of the central area (shown well on the Diatoms of the US website), and I see no trace of that. The terminal area is bizarre for a Cymbella. The species of this genus are all characterized by terminal raphe fissures that turn dorsally and continue onto the dorsal mantle, usually through a dorsal extension of the terminal area. Instead, your specimen has a peculiarly short terminal raphe fissure -- it is indeed hooked toward the dorsal side, but its entire length is contained within that "bulb", and it goes nowhere near the dorsal
margin.
This peculiar structure, along with the very large size, suggests to me that this might be an initial cell of one of the larger taxa in the genus. I have seen very few initial cells of taxa in this genus, and don't therefore know to what extent they may differ from "normal" vegetative cells of the greater part of the life cycle. Krammer has discussed these things in some of his publications, but not in the taxonomic work he published in the Diatoms of Europe series. I know that Geitler also published on Cymbella life cycles, but I'll have to hunt up the references.
At first I thought that it might be a teratological form, but I now find that less likely -- it's too well-organized and symmetrical, I think.
I will look through Krammer's DoE volume on Cymbella when I get a bit more time, to see if I can find anything like this, particularly in the way of an initial cell.
Warmest regards,
Dick
From: Rob Kimmich
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
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Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Dick,
Thanks very much for your research. I am finding this form in each exam of the sample as I work through the dilutions. Hopefully I will have some mounted material in the next few days and can post some images that should be more clear than these wet mounts. This sample while alive on the window sill for a few days did seem to be showing mating pairs of C. mexicana and groups of 4 to 6 in clear envelopes that I wondered about being zygotes. There were plenty of amoebas digesting Cymbellas, too, which looked like the envelopes, but with lots of grainy cytoplasm.
-Rob
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Richard Carter <rcarter68502@...> wrote:
Rob and Klaus, I have been studying your images with a great deal of interest, Rob, and I find them very perplexing! I think you are very correct in pointing out the peculiar nature of the terminal area in this specimen -- it looks quite unlike that of a typical Cymbella! The very large size suggests that it is not C. mexicana. The shortened alternating striae certainly suggest that species, but also suggest the closely related (and much larger) C. janischii. However, it really doesn't look much like either of those species when we get right down to it. I cannot interpret the central area very well from your image. If it is one of these two species,
then it should have a single stigma near the middle of the central nodule, not ventral to it as in the majority of Cymbella species. If it were C. janischii, then it would have greatly elongated foramina on the ventral margin of the central area (shown well on the Diatoms of the US website), and I see no trace of that. The terminal area is bizarre for a Cymbella. The species of this genus are all characterized by terminal raphe fissures that turn dorsally and continue onto the dorsal mantle, usually through a dorsal extension of the terminal area. Instead, your specimen has a peculiarly short terminal raphe fissure -- it is indeed hooked toward the dorsal side, but its entire length is contained within that "bulb", and it goes nowhere near the dorsal
margin.
This peculiar structure, along with the very large size, suggests to me that this might be an initial cell of one of the larger taxa in the genus. I have seen very few initial cells of taxa in this genus, and don't therefore know to what extent they may differ from "normal" vegetative cells of the greater part of the life cycle. Krammer has discussed these things in some of his publications, but not in the taxonomic work he published in the Diatoms of Europe series. I know that Geitler also published on Cymbella life cycles, but I'll have to hunt up the references.
At first I thought that it might be a teratological form, but I now find that less likely -- it's too well-organized and symmetrical, I think.
I will look through Krammer's DoE volume on Cymbella when I get a bit more time, to see if I can find anything like this, particularly in the way of an initial cell.
Warmest regards,
Dick
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
|
Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Thank you for clarifying, Klaus.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Rob,
Yes rather done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have posted some more images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from Monterey U.S.A.
The Ruth Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a severe rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still rubbish at Photography but suffices to make the point.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
>
> Klaus,
>
> Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems
> a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb"
> containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the
> slide.
>
> Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> > This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey,
> > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms
> > of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
> > sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or
> > stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to
> > learn about photography.
> > Klaus
> >
> > --- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
> > >
> > > From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
> > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347
> > µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
> > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on
> > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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|
|
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...> wrote:
Thank you for clarifying, Klaus.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
**
Rob,
Yes rather done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have
posted some more images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from
Monterey U.S.A.
The Ruth Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost
identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a severe
rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still rubbish at
Photography but suffices to make the point.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella
seems
a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb"
containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the
slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
**
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2
Monterey,
Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks
Diatoms
of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes
or
stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still
alot to
learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length
= 347
µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on
Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
-Rob
|
|
|
Brian and Rob, The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows the course of the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note that there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately turns dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for this link! Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on your windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your stitched image: what species are those?
Looking forward to further images,
Dick
From: urginia
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Hi,
i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but you might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella mexicana:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf
also you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication list:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm
quite a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there.
best wishes,
Brian
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
>
> Thank you for clarifying, Klaus.
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> > Yes rather done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have
> > posted some more images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
> > A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from
> > Monterey U.S.A.
> > The Ruth Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
> > Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost
> > identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a severe
> > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still rubbish at
> > Photography but suffices to make the point.
> > Klaus
> >
> > --- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
> > >
> > > Klaus,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella
> > seems
> > > a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb"
> > > containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on
> > the
> > > slide.
> > >
> > > Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know
> > them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello Rob,
> > > > This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2
> > Monterey,
> > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks
> > Diatoms
> > > > of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
> > > > sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes
> > or
> > > > stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still
> > alot to
> > > > learn about photography.
> > > > Klaus
> > > >
> > > > --- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
> > > > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length
> > = 347
> > > > µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
> > > > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on
> > > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
> > > > >
> > > > > -Rob
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Aha!! I've been skimming the plates in Vol. 3 of DoE, the volume on Cymbella, and see that I have made a very foolish mistake! The structure I have been describing is the external terminal raphe fissure. The internal structure of the raphe end is quite different, and looks much more like Rob's image. The "bulb" conforms nicely to the contour of the helictoglossa, and the internal fissure seems not to leave this structure. So, I think we are seeing the inside of a valve in Rob's image. Krammer's plate 171, fig. 3, shows
a valve of C. janischii: although it is of the valve exterior, one can dimly see the interior "bulb" of the helictoglossa, and it looks a lot like what we see in Rob's image. The images on the Diatoms of the US website seem not to show a valve interior.
If other characters are found to agree, I'd suggest that this is C. janischii (Schmidt) Cleve. Widely found in Oregon, type locality is San Francisco, CA. Apparently a west coast endemic?
Dick
From: Rob Kimmich
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Dick,
Thanks very much for your research. I am finding this form in each exam of the sample as I work through the dilutions. Hopefully I will have some mounted material in the next few days and can post some images that should be more clear than these wet mounts. This sample while alive on the window sill for a few days did seem to be showing mating pairs of C. mexicana and groups of 4 to 6 in clear envelopes that I wondered about being zygotes. There were plenty of amoebas digesting Cymbellas, too, which looked like the envelopes, but with lots of grainy cytoplasm.
-Rob
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Richard Carter <rcarter68502@...> wrote:
Rob and Klaus, I have been studying your images with a great deal of interest, Rob, and I find them very perplexing! I think you are very correct in pointing out the peculiar nature of the terminal area in this specimen -- it looks quite unlike that of a typical Cymbella! The very large size suggests that it is not C. mexicana. The shortened alternating striae certainly suggest that species, but also suggest the closely related (and much larger) C. janischii. However, it really doesn't look much like either of those species when we get right down to it. I cannot interpret the central area very well from your image. If it is one of these two species,
then it should have a single stigma near the middle of the central nodule, not ventral to it as in the majority of Cymbella species. If it were C. janischii, then it would have greatly elongated foramina on the ventral margin of the central area (shown well on the Diatoms of the US website), and I see no trace of that. The terminal area is bizarre for a Cymbella. The species of this genus are all characterized by terminal raphe fissures that turn dorsally and continue onto the dorsal mantle, usually through a dorsal extension of the terminal area. Instead, your specimen has a peculiarly short terminal raphe fissure -- it is indeed hooked toward the dorsal side, but its entire length is contained within that "bulb", and it goes nowhere near the dorsal
margin.
This peculiar structure, along with the very large size, suggests to me that this might be an initial cell of one of the larger taxa in the genus. I have seen very few initial cells of taxa in this genus, and don't therefore know to what extent they may differ from "normal" vegetative cells of the greater part of the life cycle. Krammer has discussed these things in some of his publications, but not in the taxonomic work he published in the Diatoms of Europe series. I know that Geitler also published on Cymbella life cycles, but I'll have to hunt up the references.
At first I thought that it might be a teratological form, but I now find that less likely -- it's too well-organized and symmetrical, I think.
I will look through Krammer's DoE volume on Cymbella when I get a bit more time, to see if I can find anything like this, particularly in the way of an initial cell.
Warmest regards,
Dick
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
|
Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Brian,
Thanks for these references. The C. mexicana paper will add to learning about this common colonial that I see here. The publication list looks useful, too, with the PDF links.
-Rob
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 8:05 AM, urginia <urginia@...> wrote:
|
|
|
Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Looks like an unintentional treasure hunt. These images were indeed of the inside of the valve! ~Rob
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Richard Carter <rcarter68502@...> wrote:
Aha!! I've been skimming the plates in Vol. 3 of DoE, the volume on Cymbella, and see that I have made a very foolish mistake! The structure I have been describing is the external terminal raphe fissure. The internal structure of the raphe end is quite different, and looks much more like Rob's image. The "bulb" conforms nicely to the contour of the helictoglossa, and the internal fissure seems not to leave this structure. So, I think we are seeing the inside of a valve in Rob's image. Krammer's plate 171, fig. 3, shows
a valve of C. janischii: although it is of the valve exterior, one can dimly see the interior "bulb" of the helictoglossa, and it looks a lot like what we see in Rob's image. The images on the Diatoms of the US website seem not to show a valve interior.
If other characters are found to agree, I'd suggest that this is C. janischii (Schmidt) Cleve. Widely found in Oregon, type locality is San Francisco, CA. Apparently a west coast endemic?
Dick
Dick,
Thanks very much for your research. I am finding this form in each exam of the sample as I work through the dilutions. Hopefully I will have some mounted material in the next few days and can post some images that should be more clear than these wet mounts. This sample while alive on the window sill for a few days did seem to be showing mating pairs of C. mexicana and groups of 4 to 6 in clear envelopes that I wondered about being zygotes. There were plenty of amoebas digesting Cymbellas, too, which looked like the envelopes, but with lots of grainy cytoplasm.
-Rob
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Richard Carter <rcarter68502@...> wrote:
Rob and Klaus, I have been studying your images with a great deal of interest, Rob, and I find them very perplexing! I think you are very correct in pointing out the peculiar nature of the terminal area in this specimen -- it looks quite unlike that of a typical Cymbella! The very large size suggests that it is not C. mexicana. The shortened alternating striae certainly suggest that species, but also suggest the closely related (and much larger) C. janischii. However, it really doesn't look much like either of those species when we get right down to it. I cannot interpret the central area very well from your image. If it is one of these two species,
then it should have a single stigma near the middle of the central nodule, not ventral to it as in the majority of Cymbella species. If it were C. janischii, then it would have greatly elongated foramina on the ventral margin of the central area (shown well on the Diatoms of the US website), and I see no trace of that. The terminal area is bizarre for a Cymbella. The species of this genus are all characterized by terminal raphe fissures that turn dorsally and continue onto the dorsal mantle, usually through a dorsal extension of the terminal area. Instead, your specimen has a peculiarly short terminal raphe fissure -- it is indeed hooked toward the dorsal side, but its entire length is contained within that "bulb", and it goes nowhere near the dorsal
margin.
This peculiar structure, along with the very large size, suggests to me that this might be an initial cell of one of the larger taxa in the genus. I have seen very few initial cells of taxa in this genus, and don't therefore know to what extent they may differ from "normal" vegetative cells of the greater part of the life cycle. Krammer has discussed these things in some of his publications, but not in the taxonomic work he published in the Diatoms of Europe series. I know that Geitler also published on Cymbella life cycles, but I'll have to hunt up the references.
At first I thought that it might be a teratological form, but I now find that less likely -- it's too well-organized and symmetrical, I think.
I will look through Krammer's DoE volume on Cymbella when I get a bit more time, to see if I can find anything like this, particularly in the way of an initial cell.
Warmest regards,
Dick
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...> wrote:
Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still alot to learn about photography.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
>
> From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
>
> -Rob
>
|
|
|
Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Dick,
To answer you about the other Cymbellas, I posted a
pseudo-darkfield image of this sample during cleaning. Taking the central area
of the big Cymbella as the clock center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella
mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms. At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C.
mexicana is very common and C. janischii is frequent in the sample. The
morphometrics for these two match well with the DoUS (Diatoms of the US)
site.
I put up two others showing what I am calling C.
mexicana and C. janischii.
-Rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35
AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty
Cymbella
Brian
and Rob, The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows the course of
the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note that
there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately turns
dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There
is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for
this link! Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on your
windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations
pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your stitched image: what
species are those?
Looking forward to further
images,
Dick
From: urginia
To:
diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05
AM
Subject: [diatom_forum]
Re: hefty Cymbella
Hi, i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but you
might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella
mexicana: http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf also
you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication
list: http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm quite
a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there. best
wishes, Brian --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > Thank you for clarifying, Klaus. >
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp wrote: > >
> ** > > > > > > Rob, > > Yes rather
done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have > >
posted some more images and hope they are useful in your
deliberations. > > A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas
Plate 376 fig 1-2 from > > Monterey U.S.A. > > The Ruth
Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966 >
> Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are
almost > > identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I
expect a severe > > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick.
Still rubbish at > > Photography but suffices to make the
point. > > Klaus > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > > > > > Klaus, > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette.
This Cymbella > > seems > > > a lot more blunt than your
spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" > > > containing the
distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on > >
the > > > slide. > > > > > > Would you
spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know > >
them. > > > > > > Thanks, > > >
Rob > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM,
klaus.kemp wrote: > > > > > > > ** > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hello Rob, >
> > > This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A.
376/1-2 > > Monterey, > > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W
also a good description in Ruth Patricks > > Diatoms > >
> > of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost
pure > > > > sample of this which I use extensively when making
exhibition rosettes > > or > > > > stars. I shall post
an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still > > alot to >
> > > learn about photography. > > > > Klaus >
> > > > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From a
partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three > >
> > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen.
Length > > = 347 > > > > µm, width = 61 µm. The
circular area around the distal raphe ends seems > > > >
significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on >
> > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the
books". > > > > > > > > > > -Rob >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
|
|
|
Rob Kimmich <kimmich46@...>
Helictoglossa is a new term for me. Diatoms of the US has a nice SEM image of the
helictoglossa of a Gomphoneis, at the bottom of the page.
[1]
-Rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:17
AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty
Cymbella
Aha!!
I've been skimming the plates in Vol. 3 of DoE, the volume on Cymbella, and see that I have made a
very foolish mistake! The structure I have been describing
is the external terminal
raphe fissure. The internal structure of the
raphe end is quite different, and looks much more like Rob's
image. The "bulb" conforms nicely to the contour of the helictoglossa,
and the internal fissure seems not to leave this structure. So, I think
we are seeing the inside of a
valve in Rob's image. Krammer's plate 171, fig. 3, shows a valve of
C. janischii: although it is of
the valve exterior, one can dimly see the interior "bulb" of the
helictoglossa, and it looks a lot like what we see in Rob's image. The
images on the Diatoms of the US website seem not to show a valve
interior.
If other characters are found to agree, I'd suggest that this
is C. janischii (Schmidt)
Cleve. Widely found in Oregon, type locality is San Francisco, CA.
Apparently a west coast endemic?
Dick
From: Rob Kimmich
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Sunday, February 24,
2013 11:11 PM
Subject: Re:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Dick,
Thanks very much for your research. I am finding this form
in each exam of the sample as I work through the dilutions. Hopefully I will
have some mounted material in the next few days and can post some images that
should be more clear than these wet mounts. This sample while alive on the
window sill for a few days did seem to be showing mating pairs of C. mexicana
and groups of 4 to 6 in clear envelopes that I wondered about being zygotes.
There were plenty of amoebas digesting Cymbellas, too, which looked like the
envelopes, but with lots of grainy cytoplasm.
-Rob
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Richard
Carter <rcarter68502@...>
wrote:
Rob
and Klaus, I have been studying your images with a great deal of
interest, Rob, and I find them very perplexing! I think you are very
correct in pointing out the peculiar nature of the terminal area in this
specimen -- it looks quite unlike that of a typical Cymbella! The very large size
suggests that it is not C.
mexicana. The shortened alternating striae certainly
suggest that species, but also suggest the closely related (and much larger)
C. janischii. However,
it really doesn't look much like either of those species when we get right
down to it. I cannot interpret the central area very well from your
image. If it is one of these two species, then it should have a single
stigma near the middle of the central nodule, not ventral to it as in the
majority of Cymbella
species. If it were C.
janischii, then it would have greatly elongated
foramina on the ventral margin of the
central area (shown well on the Diatoms of the US website), and I see no
trace of that. The terminal area is bizarre for a Cymbella. The species of this
genus are all characterized by terminal raphe fissures that turn dorsally
and continue onto the dorsal mantle, usually through a dorsal extension of
the terminal area. Instead, your specimen has a peculiarly short
terminal raphe fissure -- it is indeed hooked toward the dorsal side, but
its entire length is contained within that "bulb", and it goes nowhere near
the dorsal margin.
This peculiar structure, along with the very large
size, suggests to me that this might be an initial cell of one of the larger
taxa in the genus. I have seen very few initial cells of taxa in this
genus, and don't therefore know to what extent they may differ from "normal"
vegetative cells of the greater part of the life cycle. Krammer has
discussed these things in some of his publications, but not in the taxonomic
work he published in the Diatoms of
Europe series. I know that Geitler also published on
Cymbella life cycles, but I'll
have to hunt up the references.
At first I thought that it might be a
teratological form, but I now find that less likely -- it's too
well-organized and symmetrical, I think.
I will look through
Krammer's DoE volume on Cymbella when I get a bit more time,
to see if I can find anything like this, particularly in the way of an
initial cell.
Warmest
regards,
Dick
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette.
This Cymbella seems a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the
prominent "bulb" containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several
specimens on the slide.
Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W
references? I don't know them.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
wrote:
Hello Rob, This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A.
376/1-2 Monterey, Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth
Patricks Diatoms of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely
almost pure sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition
rosettes or stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity,
still alot to learn about photography. Klaus --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob" wrote: > > From a partly cleaned sample from a
freshwater pond in Oregon, three images with 40x objective of the longest
Cymbella I have seen. Length = 347 µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area
around the distal raphe ends seems significant. I don't see a match on
ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can
find it in "the books". > > -Rob >
|
|
|
Rob, The additional photos are very nice, particularly those of the living specimens. I would agree with your identifications. It's interesting to note that the striae of C. janischii appear to be much finer than those of C. mexicana -- an illusion produced by the considerably larger size of the former.
Dick
From: Rob Kimmich
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Dick,
To answer you about the other Cymbellas, I posted a
pseudo-darkfield image of this sample during cleaning. Taking the central area
of the big Cymbella as the clock center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella
mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms. At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C.
mexicana is very common and C. janischii is frequent in the sample. The
morphometrics for these two match well with the DoUS (Diatoms of the US)
site.
I put up two others showing what I am calling C.
mexicana and C. janischii.
-Rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35
AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty
Cymbella
Brian
and Rob, The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows the course of
the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note that
there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately turns
dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There
is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for
this link! Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on your
windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations
pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your stitched image: what
species are those?
Looking forward to further
images,
Dick
From: urginia
To:
diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05
AM
Subject: [diatom_forum]
Re: hefty Cymbella
Hi, i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but you
might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella
mexicana: http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf also
you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication
list: http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm quite
a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there. best
wishes, Brian --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > Thank you for clarifying, Klaus. >
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp wrote: > >
> ** > > > > > > Rob, > > Yes rather
done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have > >
posted some more images and hope they are useful in your
deliberations. > > A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas
Plate 376 fig 1-2 from > > Monterey U.S.A. > > The Ruth
Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966 >
> Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are
almost > > identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I
expect a severe > > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick.
Still rubbish at > > Photography but suffices to make the
point. > > Klaus > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > > > > > Klaus, > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette.
This Cymbella > > seems > > > a lot more blunt than your
spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb" > > > containing the
distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on > >
the > > > slide. > > > > > > Would you
spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know > >
them. > > > > > > Thanks, > > >
Rob > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM,
klaus.kemp wrote: > > > > > > > ** > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hello Rob, >
> > > This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A.
376/1-2 > > Monterey, > > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W
also a good description in Ruth Patricks > > Diatoms > >
> > of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost
pure > > > > sample of this which I use extensively when making
exhibition rosettes > > or > > > > stars. I shall post
an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still > > alot to >
> > > learn about photography. > > > > Klaus >
> > > > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From a
partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three > >
> > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen.
Length > > = 347 > > > > µm, width = 61 µm. The
circular area around the distal raphe ends seems > > > >
significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on >
> > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the
books". > > > > > > > > > > -Rob >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
|
|
|
Rob,
excellent photos. Thank you for posting and thank you, Klaus and Dick for unravelling this diatomic mini- mystery.
best wishes,
Brian
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob Kimmich" <kimmich46@...> wrote:
Dick,
To answer you about the other Cymbellas, I posted a pseudo-darkfield image of this sample during cleaning. Taking the central area of the big Cymbella as the clock center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms. At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C. mexicana is very common and C. janischii is frequent in the sample. The morphometrics for these two match well with the DoUS (Diatoms of the US) site.
I put up two others showing what I am calling C. mexicana and C. janischii.
-Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Carter
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Brian and Rob,
The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows the course of the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note that there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately turns dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for this link!
Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on your windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your stitched image: what species are those?
Looking forward to further images,
Dick
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: urginia <urginia@...>
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Hi,
i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but you might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella mexicana:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf
also you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication list:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm
quite a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there.
best wishes,
Brian
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
>
> Thank you for clarifying, Klaus.
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> > Yes rather done in haste and not yet fully awake at the time. So I have
> > posted some more images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
> > A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from
> > Monterey U.S.A.
> > The Ruth Patrick note is for Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
> > Still think it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost
> > identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a severe
> > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still rubbish at
> > Photography but suffices to make the point.
> > Klaus
> >
> > --- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
> > >
> > > Klaus,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply and for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella
> > seems
> > > a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the prominent "bulb"
> > > containing the distal raphe end, which I found in several specimens on
> > the
> > > slide.
> > >
> > > Would you spell out the ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know
> > them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello Rob,
> > > > This seems to me to be Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2
> > Monterey,
> > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth Patricks
> > Diatoms
> > > > of the U.S.A. Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
> > > > sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition rosettes
> > or
> > > > stars. I shall post an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still
> > alot to
> > > > learn about photography.
> > > > Klaus
> > > >
> > > > --- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
> > > > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have seen. Length
> > = 347
> > > > µm, width = 61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
> > > > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or on
> > > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in "the books".
> > > > >
> > > > > -Rob
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
|
|
|
Klaus Kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
Dick,
That leaves the question as to
what species is the one I posted? I assume C. janischii (A. Schmidt) De
Toni.
Klaus
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:05
PM
Subject: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty
Cymbella
Rob,
excellent photos. Thank you for posting and thank you, Klaus
and Dick for unravelling this diatomic mini- mystery.
best
wishes,
Brian
--- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob Kimmich" wrote:
>
> Dick,
>
> To answer you
about the other Cymbellas, I posted a pseudo-darkfield image of this sample
during cleaning. Taking the central area of the big Cymbella as the clock
center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms.
At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C. mexicana is very common and C. janischii
is frequent in the sample. The morphometrics for these two match well with the
DoUS (Diatoms of the US) site.
>
> I put up two others showing
what I am calling C. mexicana and C. janischii.
>
> -Rob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Carter
>
To: diatom_forum@...
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35 AM
> Subject: Re:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
>
>
>
>
>
Brian and Rob,
>
> The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows
the course of the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note
that there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately
turns dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There
is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for this
link!
>
> Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on
your windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations
pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your
stitched image: what species are those?
>
> Looking forward to
further images,
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
> From:
urginia
> To: diatom_forum@...
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05 AM
> Subject:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
>
>
>
>
>
Hi,
>
> i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but
you might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella mexicana:
>
> http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf
>
> also you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication list:
>
> http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm
>
> quite a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there.
>
> best wishes,
>
> Brian
>
> --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for clarifying,
Klaus.
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp
wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> >
>
> > > Rob,
> > > Yes rather done in haste and not
yet fully awake at the time. So I have
> > > posted some more
images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
> > >
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from
>
> > Monterey U.S.A.
> > > The Ruth Patrick note is for
Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
> > > Still think
it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost
> >
> identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a
severe
> > > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still
rubbish at
> > > Photography but suffices to make the
point.
> > > Klaus
> > >
> > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
Klaus,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply and
for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella
> > > seems
>
> > > a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the
prominent "bulb"
> > > > containing the distal raphe end, which
I found in several specimens on
> > > the
> > > >
slide.
> > > >
> > > > Would you spell out the
ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know
> > > them.
>
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
Rob
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at
11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
**
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > Hello Rob,
> > > > > This seems to me to be
Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2
> > > Monterey,
>
> > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth
Patricks
> > > Diatoms
> > > > > of the U.S.A.
Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
> > > >
> sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition
rosettes
> > > or
> > > > > stars. I shall post
an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still
> > > alot
to
> > > > > learn about photography.
> > > >
> Klaus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
>
> > > > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have
seen. Length
> > > = 347
> > > > > µm, width =
61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
> > >
> > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or
on
> > > > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in
"the books".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
-Rob
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
|
|
|
Klaus, Yes, I suspect that you have posted C. janischii, based on the valve outline and the "apparent" density of the striae. I think that size is the simplest way to tell the difference: Krammer lists breadths of 24-33 µm. for the nominate variety of C. mexicana, and 35-68 µm. for C. janischii. It is interesting that Krammer lists De Toni 1891 as the first valid publication of the combination Cymbella janischii, while both the California Academy of Sciences name database and the Index Nominum Algarum list Cleve
1894. The Diatoms of the US website also cites De Toni. The ANSP list cites Cleve. Who's right?
Here in Arizona we also have Cymbella mexicana var. kamtschatica (Grunow) Krammer, slightly smaller than the nominate variety, with somewhat finer striae and puncta, and an aspect ratio that does not exceed 4.2. It is very common in the Rio Salado, just upstream from Phoenix, and in the Colorado River.
Warmest regards,
Dick
From: Klaus Kemp
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Dick,
That leaves the question as to
what species is the one I posted? I assume C. janischii (A. Schmidt) De
Toni.
Klaus
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:05
PM
Subject: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty
Cymbella
Rob, excellent photos. Thank you for posting and thank you, Klaus
and Dick for unravelling this diatomic mini- mystery. best
wishes, Brian --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob Kimmich" wrote: > > Dick, > > To answer you
about the other Cymbellas, I posted a pseudo-darkfield image of this sample
during cleaning. Taking the central area of the big Cymbella as the clock
center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms.
At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C. mexicana is very common and C. janischii
is frequent in the sample. The morphometrics for these two match well with the
DoUS (Diatoms of the US) site. > > I put up two others showing
what I am calling C. mexicana and C. janischii. > > -Rob >
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Carter >
To: diatom_forum@...
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35 AM > Subject: Re:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella > > > > >
Brian and Rob, > > The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows
the course of the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note
that there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately
turns dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There
is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for this
link! > > Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on
your windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations
pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your
stitched image: what species are those? > > Looking forward to
further images, > > Dick > > > >
> > >
---------------------------------------------------------- > From:
urginia > To: diatom_forum@...
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05 AM > Subject:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella > > > > >
Hi, > > i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but
you might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella mexicana: >
> http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf >
> also you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication list: >
> http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm >
> quite a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there. >
> best wishes, > > Brian > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > > > Thank you for clarifying,
Klaus. > > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp
wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > >
> > > > Rob, > > > Yes rather done in haste and not
yet fully awake at the time. So I have > > > posted some more
images and hope they are useful in your deliberations. > > >
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from >
> > Monterey U.S.A. > > > The Ruth Patrick note is for
Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966 > > > Still think
it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost > >
> identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a
severe > > > rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still
rubbish at > > > Photography but suffices to make the
point. > > > Klaus > > > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
Rob Kimmich wrote: > > > > > > > >
Klaus, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the reply and
for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella > > > seems >
> > > a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the
prominent "bulb" > > > > containing the distal raphe end, which
I found in several specimens on > > > the > > > >
slide. > > > > > > > > Would you spell out the
ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know > > > them. >
> > > > > > > Thanks, > > > >
Rob > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at
11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote: > > > > > > > > >
** > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Hello Rob, > > > > > This seems to me to be
Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2 > > > Monterey, >
> > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth
Patricks > > > Diatoms > > > > > of the U.S.A.
Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure > > > >
> sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition
rosettes > > > or > > > > > stars. I shall post
an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still > > > alot
to > > > > > learn about photography. > > > >
> Klaus > > > > > > > > > > --- In diatom_forum@...,
"Rob" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three >
> > > > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have
seen. Length > > > = 347 > > > > > µm, width =
61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems > > >
> > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or
on > > > > > Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in
"the books". > > > > > > > > > > > >
-Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
|
|
|
klaus.kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
Dick,
As I understand this business of who has precedence it surely is based on who first listed it as such and unless another taxonomic change has been made the first De Toni 1891 stands. Now this issue is one that has been one I have avoided as it seems huge discussions take place on who has precedence andas you will know Barry Padock and I got involved in such debates regarding the renaming of Diadesmis luxuriosa, whover thinks that naming a new species or transferring one from one genus in to a new one is easy, it is not.
If any member has the variety form Cymbella janischii var kamtschatica(Grunow) Krammer I would welcome a sample of it
Klaus
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
--- In diatom_forum@..., Richard Carter <rcarter68502@...> wrote:
Klaus,
Yes, I suspect that you have posted C. janischii, based on the valve outline and the "apparent" density of the striae. I think that size is the simplest way to tell the difference: Krammer lists breadths of 24-33 µm. for the nominate variety ofC.mexicana, and 35-68 µm. for C. janischii.Â
It is interesting that Krammer lists De Toni 1891 as the first valid publication of the combination Cymbella janischii, while both the California Academy of Sciences name database and the Index Nominum Algarum list Cleve 1894. The Diatoms of the US website also cites De Toni. The ANSP list cites Cleve. Who's right?
Here in Arizona we also have Cymbella mexicanavar. kamtschatica(Grunow) Krammer, slightly smaller than the nominate variety, with somewhat finer striae and puncta, and an aspect ratio that does not exceed 4.2. It is very common in the Rio Salado, just upstream from Phoenix, and in the Colorado River.
Warmest regards,
Dick
________________________________
From: Klaus Kemp <klaus.kemp@...>
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Â
Dick,
   That leaves the question as to
what species is the one I posted? I assume C. janischii (A. Schmidt) De
Toni.
Klaus
----- Original Message -----
From: urginia
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Â
Rob,
excellent photos. Thank you for posting and thank you, Klaus and Dick for unravelling this diatomic mini- mystery.
best
wishes,
Brian
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob Kimmich" wrote:
Dick,
To answer you
about the other Cymbellas, I posted a pseudo-darkfield image of this sample
during cleaning. Taking the central area of the big Cymbella as the clock
center, at 11:00 is I think Cymbella mexicana, with the straighter raphe-arms.
At 1:00 is I think C. janischii. C. mexicana is very common and C. janischii
is frequent in the sample. The morphometrics for these two match well with the
DoUS (Diatoms of the US) site.
I put up two others showing
what I am calling C. mexicana and C. janischii.
-Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Carter
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:35 AM
Subject: Re:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Brian and Rob,
The paper whose link you posted, Brian, shows
the course of the terminal raphe fissure very clearly in fig. 2, B and D. Note
that there is no "hook" -- the raphe enters the terminal area and immediately
turns dorsad and runs straight to the dorsal margin and onto the mantle. There
is no trace of the "bulb" seen on Rob's specimen. Thanks very much for this
link!
Rob, it might be that deteriorating water conditions on
your windowsill triggered reproduction in your sample. Your observations
pretty clearly suggest that. I notice other specimens of Cymbella on your
stitched image: what species are those?
Looking forward to
further images,
Dick
----------------------------------------------------------
From:
urginia
To: diatom_forum@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject:
[diatom_forum] Re: hefty Cymbella
Hi,
i do not know if this is terribly useful or relevant, but
you might like to look at this 1993 paper on Cymbella mexicana:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/PDF/Terao_Mayama_%26_Kobayasi_1993.pdf
also you might look at Prof. Mayamas publication list:
http://www.u-gakugei.ac.jp/~mayama/references_all_E.htm
quite a few diatom pdfs of more general interest there.
best wishes,
Brian
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
Thank you for clarifying,
Klaus.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:56 AM, klaus.kemp
wrote:
**
>
Rob,
Yes rather done in haste and not
yet fully awake at the time. So I have
posted some more
images and hope they are useful in your deliberations.
A.S.A. is abreviated for Adolph Sschmidts Atlas Plate 376 fig 1-2 from
> > Monterey U.S.A.
The Ruth Patrick note is for
Patrick and Reimers Diatoms of the U.S.A. 1966
Still think
it is Cymbella mexicana as the terminal raphe ends are almost
> identical unless I have missed something, wherebye I expect a
severe
rapping of my knuckles and reprimand from Dick. Still
rubbish at
Photography but suffices to make the
point.
Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., Rob Kimmich wrote:
Klaus,
Thanks for the reply and
for posting your fine rosette. This Cymbella
seems
> > > a lot more blunt than your spokes and then there is the
prominent "bulb"
containing the distal raphe end, which
I found in several specimens on
the
slide.
Would you spell out the
ASA and the USA RF/W references? I don't know
them.
> > >
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at
11:34 PM, klaus.kemp wrote:
**
> > Hello Rob,
This seems to me to be
Cymbella mexicana Look at A.S.A. 376/1-2
Monterey,
> > > > Washington. U.S.A. R.F/W also a good description in Ruth
Patricks
Diatoms
of the U.S.A.
Stephen Nagy some time ago sent me a lovely almost pure
> sample of this which I use extensively when making exhibition
rosettes
or
stars. I shall post
an image but forgive the lack of clarity, still
alot
to
learn about photography.
> Klaus
--- In diatom_forum@..., "Rob" wrote:
From a partly cleaned sample from a freshwater pond in Oregon, three
> > > > images with 40x objective of the longest Cymbella I have
seen. Length
= 347
µm, width =
61 µm. The circular area around the distal raphe ends seems
> > significant. I don't see a match on ANSP, in the British Atlas, or
on
Diatoms of the US. Maybe someone can find it in
"the books".
-Rob
> > >
>
>
|
|
|
