Topics

Fake Harris 1802 chip confirmation #History #rca1802


Ham Radio
 

I need help confirming that an 1802 chip is a fake.  

The eBay seller claims the chip is using a new “Harris” logo.

The date code on the back may be RCA?  Looks fake to me.

Comments please.  Thank you.


--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


David G Williams
 


Hi Bernie,
 
                That is the Intersil symbol on the top - not Harris.
 
David Williams

----- Original Message -----
From: Ham Radio
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 12:08 AM
Subject: [cosmacelf] Fake Harris 1802 chip confirmation #rca1802 #History

I need help confirming that an 1802 chip is a fake.  

The eBay seller claims the chip is using a new “Harris” logo.

The date code on the back may be RCA?  Looks fake to me.

Comments please.  Thank you.


--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


Ham Radio
 

Thanks Dave

The marking  on the back look like
6FVBQ
Y7739

?FVBQ
?7733

6FVYQ
W676

6FVXD
J6116

Anybody know if those above are RCA markings? Did Intersil make 1802 chips under license?
--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


P Todd Decker
 

Yes, Intersil made the 1802 and did so fairly recently (perhaps they still even do).  Here is their data sheet:  https://www.renesas.com/jp/ja/www/doc/datasheet/cdp1802ac-3.pdf

---
P. Todd Decker
913-284-8814

On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:04 PM, Ham Radio <bernard.murphy@...> wrote:

Thanks Dave

The marking  on the back look like
6FVBQ
Y7739

?FVBQ
?7733

6FVYQ
W676

6FVXD
J6116

Anybody know if those above are RCA markings? Did Intersil make 1802 chips under license?
--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


P Todd Decker
 

I didn’t want to mention it until I double-checked, but Intersil (now owned/called Renesas) does still make the 1802 probably due to military and aerospace markets:


---
P. Todd Decker
913-284-8814

On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:22 PM, P Todd Decker via groups.io <ptdecker@...> wrote:

Yes, Intersil made the 1802 and did so fairly recently (perhaps they still even do).  Here is their data sheet:  https://www.renesas.com/jp/ja/www/doc/datasheet/cdp1802ac-3.pdf

---
P. Todd Decker
913-284-8814

On Sep 11, 2020, at 3:04 PM, Ham Radio <bernard.murphy@...> wrote:

Thanks Dave

The marking  on the back look like
6FVBQ
Y7739

?FVBQ
?7733

6FVYQ
W676

6FVXD
J6116

Anybody know if those above are RCA markings? Did Intersil make 1802 chips under license?
-- 
Regards,
Bernie Murphy



Dennis Boone
 

I didn’t want to mention it until I double-checked, but Intersil (now
> owned/called Renesas) does still make the 1802 probably due to
> military and aerospace markets:

Lee looked this up back in August, and said:

The 1802 is still in production, but only produced to order. When I
asked (a few years ago), it was something like a 1000-piece minimum
order for around $4000 for Intersil to make some in the plastic DIP40
package.
Honestly, this is almost in range of a group buy.

De


Ham Radio
 

I just reviewed Herb’s web site regarding RCA 1802 markings.  

With my recent purchase of 10 1802 chips, I am now fairly certain that the 6FVXX markings indicate some type of production batch number.  The other line on the bottom looks like a date code with a prefix which could indicate what fab line the chips were made.  

Maybe we could get someone to contact RCA in NJ and see if their archives have that information?
 
--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


Lee Hart
 

Dennis Boone wrote:
> I didn’t want to mention it until I double-checked, but Intersil (now
> owned/called Renesas) does still make the 1802 probably due to
> military and aerospace markets:

Lee looked this up back in August, and said:

The 1802 is still in production, but only produced to order. When I
asked (a few years ago), it was something like a 1000-piece minimum
order for around $4000 for Intersil to make some in the plastic DIP40
package.
Honestly, this is almost in range of a group buy.
Yes indeed. I even considered doing so! But $4000 was a lot of money, and it could take decades (longer than I'm likely to live) to sell them. Especially with the Chinese el-cheapo chips on the market.

It would have to be done by someone that was building a product that would use 1000 1802's. They could buy extra for only a small incremental cost; and the extras could be sold to hobbyists.

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com


Paul Schmidt
 

It is sort of too bad that we have a forum, but not an actual club or organization for 1802s.

In addition to my collection of vintage computers, I am also very active in collecting and using vintage musical instruments (usually from the 1500s-1900) and vintage bicycles (anything late 1800s), Both pursuits have collectors with artifacts that need certain parts that are unobtanium in the modern world, and least not without hiring a manufacturer to make a production run, e.g. tires for old high highwheel bicycles. So one organization took some of the dues, created a fund, assigned a manager of the fund, who deals with taking orders from club members, filling them, replenishing the fund and returning the balance to the club, and every few years making another large order. Another club just finds somebody with some spare money who is willing to buy the minimum order and then take the responsibility to fill orders. In another organization, there are a lot of people who want a certain type of calendar that can only be purchased in quantity, and every year I am the guy who buys a run of those and then sells them back to members....but that is an outlay of only a few hundred dollars annually, not too hard for me to do.

I wonder if any of these strategies might be made to work in the 1802 enthusiast community? One person might blanche at spending perhaps $4000 to assure a supply of chips for many years to come, while another might have some spare cash and decide to step up and do it.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> On Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 6:59 PM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io
Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Fake Harris 1802 chip confirmation #rca1802 #History

Dennis Boone wrote:
> I didn’t want to mention it until I double-checked, but Intersil (now
> owned/called Renesas) does still make the 1802 probably due to
> military and aerospace markets:

Lee looked this up back in August, and said:

The 1802 is still in production, but only produced to order. When I
asked (a few years ago), it was something like a 1000-piece minimum
order for around $4000 for Intersil to make some in the plastic DIP40
package.
Honestly, this is almost in range of a group buy.
Yes indeed. I even considered doing so! But $4000 was a lot of money, and it could take decades (longer than I'm likely to live) to sell them.
Especially with the Chinese el-cheapo chips on the market.

It would have to be done by someone that was building a product that would use 1000 1802's. They could buy extra for only a small incremental cost; and the extras could be sold to hobbyists.

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com


Gregg Levine
 

Hello!
Wow!
That sounds rather like the circumstances that surround the people who
restore older motor vehicles. And even older aircraft.

Even though I know I've got at least one of the COSMAC family members
of processors here, perhaps two, I'd be pleased to contribute to a
fund for the purposes of buying more of the devices. That presupposes
that the rest of us will want to do that.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:18 PM Paul Schmidt <ocleide@...> wrote:

It is sort of too bad that we have a forum, but not an actual club or organization for 1802s.

In addition to my collection of vintage computers, I am also very active in collecting and using vintage musical instruments (usually from the 1500s-1900) and vintage bicycles (anything late 1800s), Both pursuits have collectors with artifacts that need certain parts that are unobtanium in the modern world, and least not without hiring a manufacturer to make a production run, e.g. tires for old high highwheel bicycles. So one organization took some of the dues, created a fund, assigned a manager of the fund, who deals with taking orders from club members, filling them, replenishing the fund and returning the balance to the club, and every few years making another large order. Another club just finds somebody with some spare money who is willing to buy the minimum order and then take the responsibility to fill orders. In another organization, there are a lot of people who want a certain type of calendar that can only be purchased in quantity, and every year I am the guy who buys a run of those and then sells them back to members....but that is an outlay of only a few hundred dollars annually, not too hard for me to do.

I wonder if any of these strategies might be made to work in the 1802 enthusiast community? One person might blanche at spending perhaps $4000 to assure a supply of chips for many years to come, while another might have some spare cash and decide to step up and do it.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> On Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 6:59 PM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io
Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Fake Harris 1802 chip confirmation #rca1802 #History

Dennis Boone wrote:
> I didn’t want to mention it until I double-checked, but Intersil (now
> owned/called Renesas) does still make the 1802 probably due to
> military and aerospace markets:

Lee looked this up back in August, and said:

The 1802 is still in production, but only produced to order. When I
asked (a few years ago), it was something like a 1000-piece minimum
order for around $4000 for Intersil to make some in the plastic DIP40
package.
Honestly, this is almost in range of a group buy.
Yes indeed. I even considered doing so! But $4000 was a lot of money, and it could take decades (longer than I'm likely to live) to sell them.
Especially with the Chinese el-cheapo chips on the market.

It would have to be done by someone that was building a product that would use 1000 1802's. They could buy extra for only a small incremental cost; and the extras could be sold to hobbyists.

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
And this location belongs to the Rebel Alliance.


Arthur Elsenaar
 

Yes indeed. I even considered doing so! But $4000 was a lot of money,
and it could take decades (longer than I'm likely to live) to sell them.
What are people here willing to pay for NOS guaranteed good CDP1802 chips, is €10 ok? I might be able to obtain a batch.

Arthur


ian may
 

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 01:04 PM, Ham Radio wrote:
The marking  on the back look like
6FVBQ
Y7739
Bernie, I'm pretty certain that the numbers on the bottom are not date codes. There is a picture of an 1802 chip I have in this post https://groups.io/g/cosmacelf/message/27744 . The lower line on the bottom side is "W6964" which is a little early for an 1802. In the same thread Martin listed two devices with underside lower lines of "V6918" and "V6513" https://groups.io/g/cosmacelf/message/27760 . Plastic packaged parts first appear in the RCA 6-79 1802 data sheet which states at the bottom "Supersedes preliminary date issued 2-78". So there shouldn't be any pre 2-78 plastic parts at all.

Here are a few items from wikipedia pages:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Corporation
>In 1988, Harris acquired GE's semiconductor business, which at this time, also incorporated the Intersil and RCA semiconductor businesses. These were combined with Harris' existing semiconductor businesses.
>In 1999, Harris spun off their remaining semiconductor business as an independent company, under the Intersil name.
>Defunct    June 28, 2019; 14 months ago

So Harris no longer  exist,  therefore having a "new logo" is quite an achievement.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersil
>Japanese semiconductor company Renesas acquired Intersil on February 24, 2017.

How long before we start seeing chips marked "Renesas" on eBay?

In the previous "Fake 1802 processors" thread (starts here https://groups.io/g/cosmacelf/message/27738 ), some group members suggested giving eBay sellers negative feedback for selling devices as new when they had been (putting it politely) "seller refurbished". I'm concerned that approach may lead to unintended consequences some time in the future. Firstly, I have no problem with buyers asking for refunds for chips that don't work, but asking for refunds for working chips that have had new markings applied (instead of being new) may be counterproductive in the long term.

I can think of 2 eBay seller models, 1) the seller owns the chips for sale and 2) the seller buys the chips from another seller or wholesaler. The first seller type will probably keep selling chips even with negative feedback and refunds until they have sold their stock. The second seller might quite quickly decide that it simply isn't worthwhile to keep getting negative feedback and giving refunds so they just stop selling 1802s chips. New sellers might take over from them, but word could get around that 1802 chips are "bad karma" and the supply of cheap chips may stop altogether.

So I think people need to be realistic here, and accept that if you're buying 1802 chips from China which are priced less than US$146 each (1,000 price break from Renesas) the chances of them being new are virtually zero. So "caning" the sellers because they aren't new (but work) probably isn't a good idea for potential future purchasers. Note that I'm not just looking out for myself here, I already have a lifetime's supply of 1802s so if they become unavailable it won't impact me at all (hey - I might even start selling some of mine).

The other option is to buy your 1802s from eBay sellers that list them as USED. At least you then know what you are buying. They usually list them as "tested and 100% working" or similar, so hopefully they will replace one's that don't work. Used HARRIS CDP1802ACD3 ceramic packaged chips are available for less than US$20 from one seller, so you might get seven for the price of one from Renesas.
Cheers, Ian.


P Todd Decker
 

Absolutely that amount is okay

---
P. Todd Decker
913-284-8814

On Sep 12, 2020, at 5:04 AM, Arthur Elsenaar <sub@...> wrote:


Yes indeed. I even considered doing so! But $4000 was a lot of money,
and it could take decades (longer than I'm likely to live) to sell them.
What are people here willing to pay for NOS guaranteed good CDP1802 chips, is €10 ok? I might be able to obtain a batch.

Arthur



<publickey - sub@... - 0xB7C32FC6.asc>


Ham Radio
 
Edited

I fully agree with Ian’s comments.

The old adage “You get what you pay for” is true in this situation.

We should treat these used parts from China as useful recycled parts that can be used for hobby purposes.

The 1802s I received, were definitely pulls as there was solder residue on the pins.  

From an eBay feedback point-of-view, I going to comment that the items received were used but functional.

For me, tracking down the origin of the parts is still the fun part of this hobby.


--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy


Martin
 

Well - for now, we seem to be getting functional 1802s for the most part, for crazy cheap prices.

I don't know if my tester will detect a functional but damaged pin (high current) as Lee notes. It seems as if remarking is just part of the refurb process. 

As Ian notes, the ceramic parts are probably unmodified.  

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 6:52 AM Ham Radio <bernard.murphy@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I fully agree with Ian’s comments.

The old adage “You get what you pay for” is true in this situation.

We should treat these used parts from China as useful recycled parts that can be used for hobby purposes.

The 1802s I received, were definitely pulls as there was solder residue on the pins.  

From an eBay feedback point-of-view, I going to comment that the items received were used but functional.

For me, tracking down the origin of the parts is still the fun part of this hobby.


--
Regards,
Bernie Murphy