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Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

Rizal Acob
 

Thanks Bob..will read more ...part of the enjoyment of having the Elf2k assembled after your last batch release!

Re: Membership Card Rev JK2 - Tiny Basic Hex file #BASIC #MembershipCard

Gregg Levine
 

Hello!
Nice setup. Using that Teensy to translate from one to the other is a
good one. And using the Microchip I2C converter makes sense. Anyone
else have anything to add? I was curious as to how the whole business
was wired together.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 12:15 AM dmatyja2002 via Groups.Io
<dmatyja2002=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Gregg,

I am using Don's loader --> https://bitbucket.org/don/cosmac-1802-membershipcard-loader/src/master/
It requires an Arduino and MCP23017 Port Expander chip which I have connected to a Window 7 box to run the Python tools (see attached photo).
I am also using a Teensy 2.0 as a USB to TTL Serial adapter connected to the Membership Card serial port.

Everything works great with the Super Monitor and BASIC3 here --> http://www.sunrise-ev.com/MembershipCard/MCSMP20B.bin

I was just hoping to find a similar hex/bin with Tiny Basic instead of the Basic3.

I went down a path to compile the Tiny Basic source from here --> http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/tb0_christiansen.zip
I attempted this under Linux on a Pi Zero. Simple source files compile fine, but the Tiny Basic file is another story, hence why I hope someone has already build an image for the Membership card :-)

Hope that helps.

Regards,

-Dan

Re: Membership Card Rev JK2 - Tiny Basic Hex file #BASIC #MembershipCard

dmatyja2002
 

Hi Gregg,

I am using Don's loader --> https://bitbucket.org/don/cosmac-1802-membershipcard-loader/src/master/
It requires an Arduino and MCP23017 Port Expander chip which I have connected to a Window 7 box to run the Python tools (see attached photo).
I am also using a Teensy 2.0 as a USB to TTL Serial adapter connected to the Membership Card serial port.

Everything works great with the 
Super Monitor and BASIC3 here --> http://www.sunrise-ev.com/MembershipCard/MCSMP20B.bin

I was just hoping to find a similar hex/bin with Tiny Basic instead of the Basic3.

I went down a path to compile the Tiny Basic source from here --> http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/tb0_christiansen.zip
I attempted this under Linux on a Pi Zero. Simple source files compile fine, but the Tiny Basic file is another story, hence why I hope someone has already build an image for the Membership card :-)

Hope that helps.

Regards,

-Dan

Re: Membership Card Rev JK2 - Tiny Basic Hex file #BASIC #MembershipCard

Gregg Levine
 

Hello!
Dan are you also running the Arduinio stuff on the Pi? Or is that
running on the system that the Pi is showing a terminal screen on? And
what is your entire environment consisting of? How was the loader from
the Arduinio to the CDP1802 built? Dan's notes indicate that he built
an I2C device that translates data presented using the sketch provide
and sends it out via parallel format to the CDP1802 board.


Lee, I'm using the term "board" where our questioner used the term
"Membership card rev. JK2" because someone such as myself would want
to make use of the schematic for it, but to stretch the build onto
larger boards.

Please note that I have not as yet announced that I going to do that,
I'm just asking the questions that all of us are thinking of asking.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 8:05 PM dmatyja2002 via Groups.Io
<dmatyja2002=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello group,

Does anyone have a working Tiny Basic hex/bin file that I can load on my all memory (32K LO & HI) Membership card rev. JK2, that I recently completed?
I tried the hex file here --> http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/tb0_christiansen.zip
It is trying to work but perhaps a active low/high serial issue? Working to get A18 up and running on a Pi but got over a 1000 errors on compile.

I am loading my membership card using Don Meyer's loader --> https://bitbucket.org/don/cosmac-1802-membershipcard-loader/src/master/
I am successfully running the Super Monitor and BASIC3 with no issues using the bin file here --> http://www.sunrise-ev.com/MembershipCard/MCSMP20B.bin

Hoping to get a auto run Tiny Basic setup going.

Thanks for any help in advanced.

-Dan

Re: UT62 and Basic

thinkpast
 

Pardon me for not reading the following from the initial post:

I installed the latest Emma 02 and ran the MCDS. The UT62 and Basic worked
correctly. so I swiped the UT62 file from the Emma data, converted it to a !M.
at 8000, loaded it into the Elf with IDIOT and it ran, But the problem with
displaying RAM contents as 00's persists.
OK, here's my guess. You are running some "ELF". But the ROM images you grabbed "from the
EMMA data" are as I noted in my post, from "my" MCDS system. Whatever your "ELF" uses for serial
may not be what the MCDS uses for serial. OK?

Second. You got "the docs for BASIC 3" from Lee Hart's 1802 MC Web site. If you go back there,
I believe you will also see *their* version of BASIC 3 for the 1802 MC. And it's likely, "their" BASIC 3
docs may be informative about how they operate their BASIC 3. They may have their own patches for
EF3 and EF4. Beyond that, you'll have to read their docs and ask them.

I hope this response is informative. I'm saying there's variations of "BASIC 3" which exist today, they are
not all one thing. RCA distributed versions of their various ROM monitors, and the same applies to BASIC 3.

Regards, Herb

Re: RCA MCDS Tape I/O Board Question

ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...>
 

To me there is no obsolete.  Maybe less than mainstream or just old often hard to
get a new one.  Obsolete is hard with computers as the concept of useless is not easily
an event.  A old PDP-8 can still word process with the best, still.  If speed is a criteria
its old if you can buy it.  The only time computers are useless is when they are broken.

Old has that one item about it, if you can find a replacement for the broken the part or fake it, 
it works again.  It is why some go for older tube and semiconductor radios as we can get
transistors and tubes.  Some ICs are simple enough to fake on a strip board.  However if you
cook the cpu in a Rpi 4, well let me know how it goes.  I'v'e done remove and replace on
288 ball BGAs,  just don't do that unless there is a very compelling reason like the
boards worth several kilo-bucks and one of the only existing 5 protos.

I like all the Altoid box designs.  They are creative and there are radios and test gear
in them tins.   Rpi simulations do not appeal to me other than a functional platforms
to help develop the real thing...  On that topic I have real things, 8085, z80 1802, pdp-8
and pdp-11s (many) and such for development gives me an excuse to use.

I've been putting RF gear in those tins for years as they are a magic size for shielding
modular RF and big enough to hold a useful battery to power it.

As to putting 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag, why not?  All sorts of electronics got small
doing that.  Its a challenge, good fun, plus some are just art.

Modern computers are off topic but they embody all of the the old that was worth
using.  They are relevant in that we need a way to test ideas even old ones as in
convenient simulators and programmers.  Build one?  Nah, not fun.  They are
hammers.   Note people make hammers too despite being able to buy them
because it teaches basic skills like blacksmithing.

Allison

Re: UT62 and Basic

thinkpast
 

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:04 AM, cmdrcosmac wrote:


Earlier I posted about a problem running RCA's Basic 3 on my
SuperElf.... Basic had to be checking
/EF4 independently of UT62's use of /EF4.
So I whipped up a disassembler and Lo and Behold...

SEP 5          .. D5                   B137 0257 Õ
B4     #3E    .. 373E   Label19  B138 0258 7>
Label20:  BN4   #3A   .. 3F3A   Label20  B13A 0259 :
SMI    #00    .. FF00                B13C 0260 ÿ.
Label19:  SEP 5         .. D5                    B13E
0261 Õ

So I restarted the system, held the Elf's Input key,
(which controls /EF4) and ran the Basic program again.
This time it acted correctly, like it did under Emma 02.
There are other B4's and BN4's in the Basic, but I have
left them alone for now.
So some of the mystery solved. perhaps Marcel or Herb might
know something about the other /EF4 branches in there.
Since I am not much of a Basic programmer I ask could someone
post or point me to more basic programs that might use to
test with.
Much thanks, Chuck
I'm responding because my name was called. I don't speak for Marcel but I have one relevant comment.

http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/cosmac_dev_sys.html

provides the MCDS ROM dumps I produced, and such information as I have about the boards and the ROMs
which include a BASIC 3. The page describes what it describes. It is not intended to describe and document BASIC 3.
A number of other people provide documentation about BASIC 3. Some of them provide BASIC 3 in
various forms. I leave it to them and others to discuss BASIC 3.

I believe Marcel's EMMA 02 supports emulation of the MCDS, thanks to the ROMS I dumped, and in part due
to some of the documentation I provided. Examination of the MCDS emulation may be informative about use of EF3
and EF4.

My Web page particularly describes the 18S601 CPU board. I don't believe a schematic is available.
I sure don't have one, but I've not looked for one lately. A schematic may show something about EF3 and EF4.

That said: Look on my Web page for a description of the 18S601, and you'll see a link as part of this description:

"The CPU board is model CDP18S601 CPU 2. Here's a PDF of 14 pages about this board, from the Microboards manual."

http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mem_18S601.PDF

Reading it for others, it says EF3 or EF4 for serial is selected by a jumper Link LK36. I imagine there's various versions
of BASIC 3, which have been modified to run serial off EF3 or EF4.

But: A simple (and marginally useful) disassembly of BASIC 3 on this board, done by me some time ago, does find in the first BASIC 3 ROM, a bit of code
corresponding to the snippet found by Chuck. Other references to B4 and BN4 (checks of the /EF4 input) occur in other of the BASIC
3 ROMs. There's also references to B3 and BN3. I don't know (or recall at the moment) why both lines might be monitored by BASIC 3. It
could be, one is used for cassette input, one is used for serial input. After all, the MCDS did support save and load upon cassette of BASIC and other
programs and data.

There's not quite enough information available (that I know of) on the MCDS. Of course - if others find more, please inform me.

Regards, Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com

Membership Card Rev JK2 - Tiny Basic Hex file #BASIC #MembershipCard

dmatyja2002
 

Hello group,

Does anyone have a working Tiny Basic hex/bin file that I can load on my all memory (32K LO & HI) Membership card rev. JK2, that I recently completed?
I tried the hex file here --> http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/tb0_christiansen.zip
It is trying to work but perhaps a active low/high serial issue? Working to get A18 up and running on a Pi but got over a 1000 errors on compile.

I am loading my membership card using Don Meyer's loader --> https://bitbucket.org/don/cosmac-1802-membershipcard-loader/src/master/
I am successfully running the Super Monitor and BASIC3 with no issues using the bin file here --> http://www.sunrise-ev.com/MembershipCard/MCSMP20B.bin

Hoping to get a auto run Tiny Basic setup going.

Thanks for any help in advanced.

-Dan

Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

 

  Glad you got it fixed.

  FWIW, if you have battery backup for your SRAM, or if you have the disk/UART/NVR card installed, then the Elf2K monitor will remember your baud rate and echo setting across power cycles.  That means if you get it screwed up once, it'll stay screwed up...   There's some combination of the toggle switches you can set at power up to tell firmware to re-initialize the RAM/NVR, but I forget what the magic pattern is.  IT's in the manual.

Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

Rizal Acob
 
Edited

SOLVED! I re-burned the file to eprom (actually downloaded the HEX file from STGizmos wiki site) as pointed by Dave Ruske in one of the msg replies here about Elf2K firmware and now it works!  THANKS !!

Re: RCA MCDS Tape I/O Board Question

thinkpast
 

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 11:59 AM, Lee Hart wrote:

There is no challenge; no skill; no innovation to solving problems with
massive overkill. That doesn't take brains, just mindlessly plodding
straight ahead.

So I set deliberate limits for myself. What can I put in an Altoids tin?
How few parts does it take to accomplish a given task? It's harder...
but more fun! - Lee
Just wanted to acknowledge Lee Hart's and Allison Parent's reply to my post about "why reinvent the wheel". Their answers were 1) to innovate and improve 2) to challenge themselves 3) to do the things now, they were not able to do previously (for circumstantial reasons). Those are all good answers; that describes what they and some others are doing or hope to do today in vintage computing. Those are entirely reasonable things to do.

Lee Hart's results speak for themselves. Years of innovating the 1802 Membership Card, part by part, feature by feature. It's a master-class in product engineering; after all, it is a product not a one-off. A general value in preserving vintage computing, is that one can see the results of some design over time - decades! - and compare and contrast from company to company over some given class of "technology" - COSMACs, or S-100 systems, and so on. That happens to be my interest.

But: for some number of people, they are not engineers, or historians. They are looking for results and consistent performance. They want something that works, that's reliable. Also, some want things they can understand, familiar things. A virtue of the COSMAC products, like other vintage products, is that they are understandable with some technical effort. And as they are decades-stable, one can take time to achieve that understanding, and time to restore them to operation. In fact, that they are repairable at all despite their 4-decade vintage, is kind of surprising from a 21st century view. As is, the idea of persistent use, so your time invested is preserved.

I'm talking about "stability". My apologies if that constrains "creativity" or "innovation".

And consider that 21st century view: computing items built today have a lifetime of use of a few years; a working-at-all lifetime just past that; and then they are unrepairable. "Repair" is a lost concept, replaced by "disposable". The internals are irrelevant; the device provides a service, until the service is obsoleted. So: for those who are not engineers (software or hardware) but want to learn about the insides of their computers, and who want to operate them persistently; vintage computing may offer them their only avenue.

A discussion about modern computers is off-topic. I'm making a point to people who have already decided to be interested in vintage computers. The consensus view seems to be: vintage computing provides opportunities not available in modern computers. Which opportunities? Depends on your interests, and what's available past AND present.

Regards, Herb Johnson

Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

Rizal Acob
 
Edited

Thanks Bob for taking the time. I am using the same setup ( for V87) for my serial connection...which is bypassing the DS275 chip ->2k ohm resistors on TX/RX -> FTDI TO COM Port. With V87 Teraterm 2400/8/N/1 no flow control , it has been working fine. In fact I was able to finish my Elf2k with Pixie and Elfdisk working. I have been having difficulty using ElfOS, running BASIC from inside ElfOS ( Exec hangs, etc). So I decided to burn V88 to replace my v87. On PowerOn..POST sequence,   Elf2k responded with CR on kybrd. It displayed normal Boot Messages, then the >>> prompt. This is where I noticed that anything I typed, I don’t see the characters displayed....only when I turn On Local echo on Teraterm that I see it ( like Half Duplex).
When I install back my V87, typing will display double characters ( local echo needs turning off).
I used the binary file downloaded from the FILES section of this group’s site. I burned to Eproms, both have same results.
I haven’t been successful yet on the UART part of the system...need to learn how to configure it first..can’t get the right baud rate ( garbage chars). 
For now, I put back the V87 and is working nicely (except aware of CALL 3000 instead of RUN 3000).

Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

 

  The only change from V87 to V88 was to fix a bug in the RUN command.  AFAIK there should be no change in the way terminal echo works.

  You don't give us much information to go on...  Are you using the UART or the bit banged software serial port?  What baud rate are you using?  What character are you entering to autobaud?

  The autobaud routine will enable echo on the Elf side IF you enter a <CR>.  If you enter <LF> (or anything else, really) then it assumes the terminal has local echo.  Are you sure your terminal is set to 8N1?  That's the only format supported by either hardware or software UARTs.  With a standard crystal, the software UART can only work up to 2400 baud.  This is all documented in the manual, section 4.4.

  And I assume you're seeing this problem with the Elf2K monitor I/O itself, and not some other software.

Double Check My 1802 to CH376S File I/O Module Interface Concept

 

Has anyone connected a CH376S USB Flash Drive Module to an 1802 system using the modules parallel interface?  If so, can you double check my concept and decoder function timing, please?  

I modified my 'Pocket 1802' board to support a simple I/O decoder function using the CLC (Configurable Logic Cell) modules in the PIC 'Loader' IC (using up the last six available pins on that IC).  If my research is correct I should be able to directly connect a CH376S module to the expansion connector on my 4-chip 'Pocket 1802' board without adding any additional ICs.  

TIA...  Happy Holidays, Mike

Double check my 1802 to HD44780 LCD interface

 

Can someone double check my idea for interfacing an HD44780 type LCD display to my 'Pocket 1802' board, please?  Basically, I wired up the six extra/unused pins on the PIC 'Loader' IC for use with the CLC (Configurable Logic Cell) modules in the PIC for a simple I/O decoder function.  I thought it might be a nifty way to add a front panel or other simple I/O to my 4-chip 'Pocket 1802' board (without adding addional ICs).  

TIA...  Happy Holidays, Mike




Re: UT62 and Basic

cmdrcosmac
 

Earlier I posted about a problem running RCA's Basic 3 on my
SuperElf.
 Basic would run 1 line and stop. I've since recalled that
the old basic's often checked the terminal's BREAK key so
the user could escape a loop. Since the system's serial
comms used /EF4 that was a clue. Basic had to be checking
/EF4 independently of UT62's use of /EF4.
 So I whipped up a disassembler and Lo and Behold...

              SEP 5          .. D5                   B137 0257 Õ
              B4     #3E    .. 373E   Label19  B138 0258 7>
Label20:  BN4   #3A   .. 3F3A   Label20  B13A 0259 :
              SMI    #00    .. FF00                B13C 0260 ÿ.
Label19:  SEP 5         .. D5                    B13E 0261 Õ

So I restarted the system, held the Elf's Input key,
(which controls /EF4) and ran the Basic program again.
This time it acted correctly, like it did under Emma 02.
There are other B4's and BN4's in the Basic, but I have
left them alone for now.
 So some of the mystery solved. perhaps Marcel or Herb might
know something about the other /EF4 branches in there.
Since I am not much of a Basic programmer I ask could someone
post or point me to more basic programs that might use to
test with.
Much thanks,
Chuck

A video of my 1802 tester made from Arduino Mega

jeff.birt
 

With a lot of help and encouragement form this mailing list I put together this Arduino Mega 2560 powered 1802 tester to test the lot of 10, 1802s I bought from a seller in China. While the initial simple set up was sufficient to find I had two bad chips it was fun to improve upon the test rig and I learned a lot about the 1802 in the process.

As luck would have it the serial command input quit responding during the video but has worked every time since. I left it in as that is what happens in real life, things always fail in a demo :)

https://youtu.be/XPwuwjtjXnk

Jeff Birt

 

Re: Elf2k V88 needs Terminal Local Echo set to ON

ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...>
 

Likely so as some terminals did it for you  (especially ASR33) while other much later like
most glass tubes it was something that the terminal could do for it self or the system did it.

Allison

Re: Todd's ELF-ish to get an FDC #Homebrew #microboards

ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...>
 

DMA, you don't have a choice there. either that or a new design with a 8mhz 1806 minimum.

I did it that way, dma decided by WE (drive write commend). that and a few gates I
forget if I used 7400 or 7432 and an inverter.  The goal was fewer wires to get in
the wrong places.  I used the 37C65 as a I had a few back when.