Date   
Re: Frequency Limit of CDP1802ACE and 1806 ACE #MembershipCard

ca1naj610
 

OK Bill, this is what I found for minimum voltages at 10 MHz:

1802ACE  Harris 3.98, 4.35, 3.71, 3.91, 3.66, 4.39
                  Intersil 4.37, 4.74, 3.86
                  many 1802's would not run at 10 MHz, especially 1802AEs

1805ACE  RCA 3.48, 3.62, 3.82, 3.45, 3.75, 3.64, 3.57, 3.77, 3.62, 3.60, 3.72

1806ACE   RCA 3.73    Intersil 3.51     Harris 3.97, 3.62, 3.91, 3.66, 3.66, 4.02, 3.51, 3.84, 3.63

Yes, there is a pronounced variation among chips.  I can mail you an 1805 and/or an 1806

Re: Frequency Limit of CDP1802ACE and 1806 ACE #MembershipCard

bill rowe
 

Those are really interesting.  There is a lot of sample variation though.  If you have other chips you might repeat the experiment.  I ran everything at 5V and found most 1802s would runat 12MHz but i never found an 1806 that would.


From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of ca1naj610@... <ca1naj610@...>
Sent: October 28, 2019 6:54 PM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] Frequency Limit of CDP1802ACE and 1806 ACE #MembershipCard
 
I thought everyone might find interesting what I've experimentally learned.  The Membership card set used is: CPU card Ver. K2 and Front card Ver. J.  Both cards are soldered to homebuilt backplane as well as a crystal oscillator using a 74HCT00.  From my stock of crystals, 2 MHz to 20.0 MHz were evaluated.  The minimum voltage which would support Lee's Q slow blink program was determined for each crystal.
MHz          1802 Voltage        1806 Voltage
2.00            3.49                     3.49
4.00            3.49                     3.49
6.176          3.52                     3.49
8.00            4.00                     3.49
10.00          4.53                     3.49
12.00          5.20                     3.98
13.30          5.64                     4.35
14.40          6.20                     4.63
14.73          6.35                     4.76
16.00          null                       5.15
18.00          null                       6.75
20.20           no run                  no run

After replacing the destroyed 2N5321 protection diode with a 2N5326 diode, the membership card set works well.  The CMOS crystal oscillator was placed on the backplane near the CPU card because the resonator was flaky when measuring the frequencies with my multimeter.

The conclusion here is that the "slow" 1802 is not slow at all and the 1806 is faster at lower voltages.  Since the limit for CMOS chips is 7.0 volts, no experimentation was done at higher voltage.  Keep in mind that this work was done at room (72 F) temperature.  Your results may vary.   Comments?

--
Bill Rowe
Olduino - an arduino for the first of us
https://olduino.wordpress.com/about-2/about/

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

John
 

I'm very grateful and relieved that the group is still running. After a flurry of activity in the spring when I built my first Elf (called Mar1e) I've had other priorities over the summer so I've been a bit quiet, but I hope to finish my 74HC922 hex keyboard and display over the next few months. 

John
Nottingham

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 03:55, Dave Ruske <dave@...> wrote:
Welcome to the group, Jeff!

Dave

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 6:43 PM, jeff.birt <birt_j@...> wrote:
> Even for newbies like me a group like this in invaluable. I’m still in lurking, reading, planning mode. (Found the ELF articles, RCA manual, A programming manual, etc.) I did order some 1802’s today from eBay and hopefully by the time they arrive I’ll know enough to wire them up for a simple test to make sure they are genuine.

> Jeff Birt



Re: RCA MCDS Tape I/O Board Question

Marcel van Tongeren
 

Hi Chuck,

Just recently I have also been looking for these manuals and/or a spec for the CDP18S652 however no luck so far.
I do have an MCDS emulator for some time now but to correctly emulate the 652 board including all memory options I need the specs as well.

Anyway I do have some info on the I/O ports here: https://emma02.hobby-site.com/mcds_iomap.html maybe that will help to reverse engineer the tape I/O HW.

Cheers, Marcel.

RCA MCDS Tape I/O Board Question

cmdrcosmac
 

Hi,

I am considering bringing up UT62 and the ROM-based Editor/Assembler/
Basic 3 system as originally run on the RCA MCDS 18S694. I have the
ROM code and 64K RAM on an expanded SuperElf. I have editing/assembling
capability on a PC. There is a UART and a Q/EF3 serial I/O on the Elf.
 The only mystery remaining is the 18S652 memory and tape board.
 The 1982 RCA Microboards book says only that it is a part of the MCDS
systems and that it is documented in the MCDS manuals, MPM-293 MPM-295.

 So the burning question... Does anyone have these manuals and be willing
to post the schematics?

 As I recall, the last time the legality of posting came up, someone on the
group got a letter from the successor to RCA's rights in this stuff, allowing
posting of any COSMAC docs. Dave Ruske would know.

Thanks much.
-Chuck.

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

Dave Ruske
 

Welcome to the group, Jeff!

Dave

On Oct 28, 2019, at 6:43 PM, jeff.birt <birt_j@...> wrote:
Even for newbies like me a group like this in invaluable. I’m still in lurking, reading, planning mode. (Found the ELF articles, RCA manual, A programming manual, etc.) I did order some 1802’s today from eBay and hopefully by the time they arrive I’ll know enough to wire them up for a simple test to make sure they are genuine.

Jeff Birt

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

jeff.birt
 

Even for newbies like me a group like this in invaluable. I’m still in lurking, reading, planning mode. (Found the ELF articles, RCA manual, A programming manual, etc.) I did order some 1802’s today from eBay and hopefully by the time they arrive I’ll know enough to wire them up for a simple test to make sure they are genuine.

 

Jeff Birt

 

Frequency Limit of CDP1802ACE and 1806 ACE #MembershipCard

ca1naj610
 

I thought everyone might find interesting what I've experimentally learned.  The Membership card set used is: CPU card Ver. K2 and Front card Ver. J.  Both cards are soldered to homebuilt backplane as well as a crystal oscillator using a 74HCT00.  From my stock of crystals, 2 MHz to 20.0 MHz were evaluated.  The minimum voltage which would support Lee's Q slow blink program was determined for each crystal.
MHz          1802 Voltage        1806 Voltage
2.00            3.49                     3.49
4.00            3.49                     3.49
6.176          3.52                     3.49
8.00            4.00                     3.49
10.00          4.53                     3.49
12.00          5.20                     3.98
13.30          5.64                     4.35
14.40          6.20                     4.63
14.73          6.35                     4.76
16.00          null                       5.15
18.00          null                       6.75
20.20           no run                  no run

After replacing the destroyed 2N5321 protection diode with a 2N5326 diode, the membership card set works well.  The CMOS crystal oscillator was placed on the backplane near the CPU card because the resonator was flaky when measuring the frequencies with my multimeter.

The conclusion here is that the "slow" 1802 is not slow at all and the 1806 is faster at lower voltages.  Since the limit for CMOS chips is 7.0 volts, no experimentation was done at higher voltage.  Keep in mind that this work was done at room (72 F) temperature.  Your results may vary.   Comments?

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

bill rowe
 

you know, now that you mention it, i remember talking my employer into buying me a palm pilot so i could run it!  I imagine that's how i found this group.  Searching back on the groups.io archive the oldest message from me is marked March 2003 where I was looking from help from Lee - some things never change.

Thanks again Dave.


From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of awasson2001 <awasson@...>
Sent: October 28, 2019 12:46 PM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
Josh,

Thanks for taking over the group. You’ve got big shoes to fill but I can’t think of anyone better for the job.

Dave Ruske, thanks for keeping this group going and moving it to its new home so seamlessly. I’ve been here for 18 years and have benefited from all of your efforts. I had your emulator too. I had a Handspring which I loaded your emulator on. It was so cool to punch in various programs and watch them run on it after having lost track of my ELF II sometime in the mid-80’s. Accompanied with the folks in the group I was able to write small programs on the emulator that may be trivial on todays hardware but were way beyond my intellect back in the day. It just increased my respect for the little ELF that keeps us coming back.  

Thanks Dave!

Cheers,
Andrew 



On Oct 28, 2019, at 8:21 AM, joshbensadon <jbensadon@...> wrote:

Thank you Dave!

You've done a masterful job, I have big shoes to fill!

The truth is, the success of this group is credited to the members.  I've gotten to know a few and they are admired by many.

Moving forward, there comes a time in everyone's life when we have to ask "what are we doing here?".
COSMAC ELF Group definitely has a mission statement, which is to keep the 1802 technology and the spirit behind it alive.
This group will continue to instruct and inspire projects and thoughts related to this charming CPU and I will try my best to help it.

I fell in love with the ELF as it was my first computer built by reading back issues of Popular Electronics Magazine from the local library.
It connected the world of digital electronics with the imagination of software.  My other interests all link back to the digital age of PE and RE magazines.

The group will not be renamed to Eh!LF, but in another great global tradition, I'll raise my beer to the group!

CHEERS!
Josh Bensadon
Toronto





From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Ruske <dave@...>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:17 AM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 


--
Bill Rowe
Olduino - an arduino for the first of us
https://olduino.wordpress.com/about-2/about/

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

ajparent1/kb1gmx
 

Dave,

Thanks for all the years and keeping COSMAC ELF and the 1802 an active and vibrant group.

And Josh, 
Keep it cranking.

Allison

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

awasson2001
 

Josh,

Thanks for taking over the group. You’ve got big shoes to fill but I can’t think of anyone better for the job.

Dave Ruske, thanks for keeping this group going and moving it to its new home so seamlessly. I’ve been here for 18 years and have benefited from all of your efforts. I had your emulator too. I had a Handspring which I loaded your emulator on. It was so cool to punch in various programs and watch them run on it after having lost track of my ELF II sometime in the mid-80’s. Accompanied with the folks in the group I was able to write small programs on the emulator that may be trivial on todays hardware but were way beyond my intellect back in the day. It just increased my respect for the little ELF that keeps us coming back.  

Thanks Dave!

Cheers,
Andrew 



On Oct 28, 2019, at 8:21 AM, joshbensadon <jbensadon@...> wrote:

Thank you Dave!

You've done a masterful job, I have big shoes to fill!

The truth is, the success of this group is credited to the members.  I've gotten to know a few and they are admired by many.

Moving forward, there comes a time in everyone's life when we have to ask "what are we doing here?".
COSMAC ELF Group definitely has a mission statement, which is to keep the 1802 technology and the spirit behind it alive.
This group will continue to instruct and inspire projects and thoughts related to this charming CPU and I will try my best to help it.

I fell in love with the ELF as it was my first computer built by reading back issues of Popular Electronics Magazine from the local library.
It connected the world of digital electronics with the imagination of software.  My other interests all link back to the digital age of PE and RE magazines.

The group will not be renamed to Eh!LF, but in another great global tradition, I'll raise my beer to the group!

CHEERS!
Josh Bensadon
Toronto





From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Ruske <dave@...>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:17 AM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

joshbensadon
 

Thank you Dave!

You've done a masterful job, I have big shoes to fill!

The truth is, the success of this group is credited to the members.  I've gotten to know a few and they are admired by many.

Moving forward, there comes a time in everyone's life when we have to ask "what are we doing here?".
COSMAC ELF Group definitely has a mission statement, which is to keep the 1802 technology and the spirit behind it alive.
This group will continue to instruct and inspire projects and thoughts related to this charming CPU and I will try my best to help it.

I fell in love with the ELF as it was my first computer built by reading back issues of Popular Electronics Magazine from the local library.
It connected the world of digital electronics with the imagination of software.  My other interests all link back to the digital age of PE and RE magazines.

The group will not be renamed to Eh!LF, but in another great global tradition, I'll raise my beer to the group!

CHEERS!
Josh Bensadon
Toronto





From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Ruske <dave@...>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:17 AM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

bill rowe
 

Josh: I for one welcome our new Canadian Overlord.  As your first act, I recommend renaming the group to Cosmac Eh!LF to mark the occasion.


From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Ruske <dave@...>
Sent: October 28, 2019 10:17 AM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 

--
Bill Rowe
Olduino - an arduino for the first of us
https://olduino.wordpress.com/about-2/about/

Re: COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

bill rowe
 

Dave: Thanks for your work on the group over the years.


From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Ruske <dave@...>
Sent: October 28, 2019 10:17 AM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: [cosmacelf] COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup
 
It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 

--
Bill Rowe
Olduino - an arduino for the first of us
https://olduino.wordpress.com/about-2/about/

COSMAC ELF Group Ownership Change #ThisGroup

Dave Ruske
 

It's been about 18 years since I started the cosmacelf group as a support forum for a Palm OS based ELF emulator I'd written. For something that began as a lark, I think it's been wildly successful, but from the very first posts the group owed its success to its members' contributions. The creations and discussions here continue to amaze and delight.

You are the heart and soul of this forum, and as long as you're here, the group will continue to thrive -- even if "here" changes, as it has, twice.

Against that backdrop, it is a relatively small thing to announce that I am turning ownership of the COSMAC ELF group over to Josh Bensadon, effective immediately. Josh has been a contributor almost from the start and one of the group's first moderators. He is brilliant and kind and enthusiastic about technology, and I believe this group could not be in better hands. Please welcome him and support him in the new role.
 
I'll continue to run the sporadically maintained cosmacelf.com website, and I will continue promoting the group there. I also expect to stick around here as a member.
 
I'm thrilled to have played a role in the genesis of this group. I hope it has been a source of inspiration and the seed of new friendships, and I hope that it continues to be so for years to come.
 
Thanks for inspiring me,
Dave Ruske
 

Re: RCA Engineer mag Vol 22 1977 Feb/Mar issue

joshbensadon
 

I always love how the small hole makes for the perfect load strobe pulse. 
In that being small, it naturally happens after the data bits are set and it restores before the data bits are lost.
A built in "set up" and "hold" time.




From: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io> on behalf of ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2019 10:16 PM
To: cosmacelf@groups.io <cosmacelf@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] RCA Engineer mag Vol 22 1977 Feb/Mar issue
 
Chuck,

Or a 9th hole could create the load pulse.

Schemes that used standard 8 level paper tape with sprocket hole (smaller)
like the Oliver Audio Engineering were in fact very reliable once the light is
right and with leds for illumination it should be easy.

 Making a punch is not all that hard is one does not mind slow.
After all once the program works you can reload many times 
so a slow punch effort is not a big deal.

I though the System-00 version was cool due to the extreme mechanical
simplicity and ease of reproduction.

On a different path the average ELF used software to create the tones
via Q and maybe a transistor and EF-n line to get the tone signal in from a
common cassette recorder.   Remarkably simple and reliable.  Well suited
to longer programs and fast.

Allison

Re: RCA Engineer mag Vol 22 1977 Feb/Mar issue

ajparent1/kb1gmx
 

It occurs to me the ideal implementation of a FRED or copy would be one that
can execute UT4 from the original ut4 rom.  Since I have one and a matching
1824 32 byte ram!


Allison

Re: RCA Engineer mag Vol 22 1977 Feb/Mar issue

ajparent1/kb1gmx
 

Chuck,

Or a 9th hole could create the load pulse.

Schemes that used standard 8 level paper tape with sprocket hole (smaller)
like the Oliver Audio Engineering were in fact very reliable once the light is
right and with leds for illumination it should be easy.

 Making a punch is not all that hard is one does not mind slow.
After all once the program works you can reload many times 
so a slow punch effort is not a big deal.

I though the System-00 version was cool due to the extreme mechanical
simplicity and ease of reproduction.

On a different path the average ELF used software to create the tones
via Q and maybe a transistor and EF-n line to get the tone signal in from a
common cassette recorder.   Remarkably simple and reliable.  Well suited
to longer programs and fast.

Allison

Re: RCA Engineer mag Vol 22 1977 Feb/Mar issue

Mark Moulding
 

There are programmable music boxes that use paper tape, and come with a special punch; my wife received one a a gift, and it's pretty neat.  They're also not too expensive - around $30 for a 30 note (think 30-bit wide paper tape), or around $15 for a 15-"bit" device.  Keep in mind that this includes the player mechanism (hand-cranked) also.  The paper tapes are available separately, but I wasn't able to find the punches alone.

There are many available on Amazon:  Here's a 30-bit unit, and here's a 15-bit one.  Those bit widths are just a little shy of ideal, but you could sure get some robust error-correcting code in there if you wanted to...
~~

Mark Moulding

UT versions? #microboards

Marcel van Tongeren
 

Hi,

I'm working on a more complete Microboard System emulator in Emma 02; intention is that it will replace the CDP18S600-CDP18S603 emulators as released in the last version and in a way also the MCDS and MS2000. Not sure if I will remove the last emulators as yet or keep them next to the Microboard System emu.

Anyway, I'm getting there! Except that I would like to add emulation of the CDP18S691, CDP18S692 and the CDP18S695. I think I have emulation of these running but cannot really test them due to the fact that I don't have a copy of the UT60, UT61 or UT63. I do have the UT62 so the CDP18S693 and CDP18S694 are no issue (basically the same as the already provided MCDS emulator).

So anyone has a copy of these UT versions?
Binary or hex would be fantastic but a scan of a paper copy will do fine a as well....

While we are on the UT topic any other versions available?
I have a copy of the UT4, UT5, UT20, UT21, UT62 rev 2 and the UT71.

Cheers, Marcel.