Topics

Carnival: what's next?


Dan Margulis
 

Unless someone wants further discussion this will be my last post on the Carnival image. In past case studies we’ve tried to pick winners. Here, the top entrants are so close that trying to choose between them is like splitting hairs.

Also, in previous studies there have always been some completely fouled-up entries, useful because it highlights misconceptions. Here, the only obvious mistake was that some people concentrated so much on the reds that they ignored the need for strong yellows. Even so, there were no really bad entries.

I do think it was a worthwhile exercise. It highlighted some excellent techniques. It also may have instilled some confidence, because several people in their notes describing technique said things like “I’m sure this is going to seem terrible next to the others, because I know absolutely nothing about CMYK.” And of course they all did well.

It’s true that this is a very atypical image. OTOH it represents a category that we are probably seeing more of: a job where technical limitations (in this case, a lack of gamut) make it impossible to achieve what we would like (in this case, matching an extremely intense red). People who don’t understand the process give the work to us to figure out what is and is not possible. And not just to execute, but to explain.

This brings up the question of whether to do more case studies. I’m still stuck at home and so are many of us so it could probably be done. Then again many of us are not necessarily in the mood for such diversions. I’ve got more than enough interesting images but what we would need is interested people, since it takes an effort to run these case studies. So I ask now whether the list would like to see more of them. I won’t be offended if the answer is no.

Before signing off let me discuss one special Carnival case. The original artwork is silhouetted, no background at all. In #217 Harvey Nagal had the inspiration of adding a gradated black background. In his notes, he cited Chevreul, reasoning that the red robe would appear more brilliant against black than against white. And in this he was correct. There was nothing in the instructions to prevent this move, although in real life we’d need to run it by the client first.

In real life offset printing, large black areas like this can have unintended consequences, even if technically the file complies with the ink limit. So I would recommend not using this file in real life unless you are really confident about your press conditions.

Something lighter, however, might work. Harvey said he first had tried a pure Chevreul move of making the background the complementary of the robe, which in this case would be a cyan rather than a black. He reports: “I replaced the background with the inverse color of the costume, and found that the costume did indeed look as colorful in CMYK as it did in the original RGB image. The background looked like the worst puke spewing from a sewage pipe, but neutralizing the hue showed that the luminance contrast was sufficient to make the colors look brighter.”

I would point out that there are intermediate possibilities between dead black and bright cyan. Also, that it doesn’t have to be the exact complementary: anything cool might do. And white is the most brilliant background possible, so *anything* that darkens it may have a helpful effect—it doesn’t have to be a black.

You may wish to test this for yourself by downloading and blending #217 into your own version, at say 25% opacity. Or you might try a blend that partially excludes the green channel, making the background slightly purple rather than black. Or any of a hundred other permutations. The results are interesting.

Dan


ROBIN MARK D'ROZARIO
 

Dear Dan,
I enjoyed the Carnival exercise and vote Yes for further case studies.
Best regards,
Robin Mark D'ROZARIO


Thomas Hurd,MD
 

I am interested in more case studies. I also enjoyed the Carnival case study very much.

Tom Hurd

On May 23, 2020, at 12:10 PM, ROBIN MARK D'ROZARIO <rdrozario@...> wrote:

Dear Dan,
I enjoyed the Carnival exercise and vote Yes for further case studies.
Best regards,
Robin Mark D'ROZARIO


bill bane
 

I would love to see and try some additional whacks with additional case studies.

 

Bill Bane

 

From: colortheory@groups.io <colortheory@groups.io> On Behalf Of ROBIN MARK D'ROZARIO
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:10 AM
To: colortheory@groups.io
Subject: Re: [colortheory] Carnival: what's next?

 

Dear Dan,
I enjoyed the Carnival exercise and vote Yes for further case studies.
Best regards,
Robin Mark D'ROZARIO


George Machen
 

Case studies would seem to be the very raison d'être of this group! We were limited by storage restrictions on Yahoo, but I can only find in our FAQ restrictions on individual photo sizes, not a total for a given group. (100 MB per photo in Basic groups, 500MB in Premium and Enterprise groups)

Dan's time and disposition are not infinitely elastic; I would think that he doesn't have to participate in every case study (although the more the better!), if that would mean more case studies. And I suppose we could always rein it in if it gets out of hand.

-- 
George Machen
 


Harvey Nagai
 

I found out about this group list only a few years ago, and in mining the
messages archive had discovered the Challenges and Case Studies of yore.
Those were highly instructive in a way that just isn't possible from
presentation formats (i.e. books, articles, videos). Seeing the creative
successes and also the not-so-successful results was interesting, reading
the commentaries was invaluable.

So I would very much welcome a return of case studies, if it wouldn't be
too much trouble.


James Gray
 

I am in favor of more case studies.  Even though I did not participate in the Carnival challenge, I always learn from what the participants do and the many comments, especially, yours, Dan.

James Gray


On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 9:46 AM Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

It’s true that this is a very atypical image. OTOH it represents a category that we are probably seeing more of: a job where technical limitations (in this case, a lack of gamut) make it impossible to achieve what we would like (in this case, matching an extremely intense red). People who don’t understand the process give the work to us to figure out what is and is not possible. And not just to execute, but to explain.

This brings up the question of whether to do more case studies. I’m still stuck at home and so are many of us so it could probably be done. Then again many of us are not necessarily in the mood for such diversions. I’ve got more than enough interesting images but what we would need is interested people, since it takes an effort to run these case studies. So I ask now whether the list would like to see more of them. I won’t be offended if the answer is no.




Dan Margulis
 

OK, we’ll try another.

Dan

On May 23, 2020, at 6:38 PM, James Gray <James@...> wrote:

I am in favor of more case studies.  Even though I did not participate in the Carnival challenge, I always learn from what the participants do and the many comments, especially, yours, Dan.


Roberto Tartaglione
 

I’m really interested in more case studies Dan; in real world It is not easy to face with others about technical or aesthetical aspects of photography or pre-press.
Dealing with list members who share their Know How under your coordination, represents a step ahed for all of us.

Hope this is a common thinking.


Roberto Tartaglione
roberto@tartaglione.com


Doug Schafer
 

Daniele DiStanio has a website called Color Duels which offers once a week image correction challenge and video feedback for all the entries as well as education and tips. Excellent way of learning. He and Dan are friends.  go to ColorDuels.com to learn more. Home base is Italy.

Doug Schafer


Dan Margulis
 



On May 24, 2020, at 4:27 PM, k_d@... wrote:

Daniele DiStanio has a website called Color Duels which offers once a week image correction challenge and video feedback for all the entries as well as education and tips. Excellent way of learning. He and Dan are friends.  go to ColorDuels.com to learn more. Home base is Italy.

Doug Schafer

Daniele is indeed a close friend and I also recommend his site, which offers a good selection of challenging images and, as Doug says, a weekly video of high quality discussing the results.

The site is pay-to-play, which is both a good and a bad thing. It’s good, because you know Daniele is committed to the project and will follow through with a timely video after each challenge. On our list, it’s strictly a question of whether some moderator has the time and inclination to do it.

The possibly bad thing is that it is necessary to be nice to paying clients. There has to be a certain amount of analysis of all images even if they are not interesting to the group as a whole. And, since it is necessary to assign names to the submission, even the bad ones must be described in somewhat diplomatic terms. Here, I feel free to ignore versions that don’t teach us anything, and to use New Jersey dialect to describe failures. (Note: just because a version comes out badly doesn’t mean it won’t be discussed; often I can point out exactly what the person did wrong, which can be useful to others.) Or rather, what went wrong in the preparation of the *version number*, since the person’s name is not revealed here unless I have something flattering to say about him.

Dan Margulis

P.S. Based on first entrants the current Veiled Bride case study is going to be interesting. Reminder that entries are due by Monday morning, mail to me at dmargulis@...


Paco
 

" the person’s name is not revealed here unless I have something flattering to say about him." No ladies here!?

All the best!

www.pacomarquez.com


Thomas Hurd,MD
 

Doug,

Thank you so much for mentioning Daniele’s site on this forum.

It’s been a great place to practice and learn every week!

I look forward to seeing your corrections especially every week since I saw your corrections all summer here with this group. Great job on the waterfall image.

If anyone here hasn’t taken a look at ColorDuels.com, it’s a subscription site mentioned by Doug in this group as well as by Dan a few months ago. It has plenty of information in video format as well as weekly “confrontations” which are similar to the weekly challenges we did here last summer with Dan. One difference is the evaluations are about 30 minute videos every week. There are some other offerings at the site with an ala carte menu of products and services.

I’ve been there for about 8 weeks now, and have learned a lot. It’s also kept me out of trouble at home, giving me something to do in between printer malfunctions.

Tom



On May 24, 2020, at 4:27 PM, k_d@... wrote:

Daniele DiStanio has a website called Color Duels which offers once a week image correction challenge and video feedback for all the entries as well as education and tips. Excellent way of learning. He and Dan are friends.  go to ColorDuels.com to learn more. Home base is Italy.

Doug Schafer