A unique color-testing opportunity


Dan Margulis
 

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan


Robert Wheeler
 

As a supplement to the online color testing, it might be useful for future cases to use actual images to quantify the differences between your two eyes (before they both have new lenses). Consider taking a few images that appear especially different to  your two eyes. For each, duplicate the image into side by side identical versions that you can switch on or off at will. Look at the left version with your left eye. Look at the right side version with your right side eye. Make adjustments to the version seen with your old lens eye until it looks the same to you through your old lens eye as the other un-adjusted image does when seen through your new lens eye. Then measure the LAB values for critical points in each version and record the values and differences, maybe averaged across the small test set.

Possibly not as interesting as difference in preference, but might be useful to know the magnitude of the differences in your case as a baseline for comparison with others who might be willing to do the same exercise while waiting between lens replacements. Different cataracts may have different impacts on color transmission depending on density. If others replicate your preferences exercise, they could also test their quantitative differences in perception (via subjective equalization adjustments). Could be interesting to see whether their preference differences are affected by the amount of difference between the eyes, even if the direction of differences may be the same as yours.


Frederick Yocum
 

Dan

I look forward to the results and don’t have any suggestions for further tests. I have on occasions noticed a color shift between my eyes hopefully subtle enough but it doesn’t make a difference.

As important as this is, I find myself surprised again and again when I return to a color corrected image and realize I have left a major color shift or tonal shift insufficiently addressed. My eyes over exaggerated the effect I was having on the image, I need to go back and do more.

regards,
Frederick Yocum
mobile 717.341.2226
Skype Frederick
1152 Main Street
Akron, PA 17501

On Nov 6, 2020, at 13:17, Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan











Rick Gordon
 

1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to accustom yourself to the new baseline. I'd suggest making a third pass-through some time after having fully adjusted to the changes, and having responded to your entire visual perception having been altered, not just in relation to images, but everything that you see.

2) Are there shifts in your perception of sharpness? Do you find yourself wanting to sharpen a bit less as a result of increase contrast? What about your perception of the impact of local contrast maneuvers?

Rick Gordon

--------------------
On November 6, 2020 at 11:37:54 AM [-0800], Dan Margulis Via Groups.io wrote in an email entitled "[colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity":
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

…
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


sj_90000@...
 

Hi Dan,

Yeah, seeing the color differences is an interesting thing to observe. I had my cataracts removed a few years ago. But all too soon, after both eyes are done, you'll find it's difficult remembering that sepia tint that used to cloud your vision - I'm sure it's adaption at work. Anyway I'm sure you'll appreciate the sunrises and sunsets a lot more. The subtle colors between blues and reds are a lot more vivid. I guess it's because they're more closely balanced since there's no longer a "yellow" filter hindering the full effect of the blue. While doing some researching on cataracts I came across this very informative article. Hope you find it useful/interesting. Have fun with your new BLUES!

https://web.archive.org/web/20181230070529/http://vsri.ucdavis.edu/research/psychophysics

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Margulis via groups.io
Date: Friday, November 06, 2020 01:17 PM
To: colortheory@groups.io
Subject: [colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan


James Gray
 

Dan,  Good luck with your cataract surgery.  Over 15 years ago I had cataract surgery.  I noticed a huge difference between the two eyes during the couple of weeks between the surgeries.  I was told that my cataracts were somewhat unusual which was related to an issue with my calcium metabolism.  I was also experiencing a certain amount of monocular double vision.  I did not attempt the type of test you are planning but did notice changes in preferences.  Rather than a change in the way blues looked I noticed a huge change in how yellows looked.  Viewed through my pre-surgery lens, yellows had a very mustardy look.  With the implant, yellows were more brilliant and saturated.  In addition, blacks were blacker, whites were whiter and contrast was way better.  I am quite sure that I prefer images with bright yellow flowers much more than I did before the surgery.  I will very interested to find out what your tests show.

James Gray

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:17 AM Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan












Thomas Hurd,MD
 

Dan,

I just returned from the ophthalmologist. I have a cataract in each eye, but he did not yet recommend surgery.

I was complaining that I might not be seeing well enough on my computer correcting images, but now I found
1) I actually have a blue streak across my laptop screen that is obviously not on either of my desktop dual monitors.
2)  my doctor told me that because we get more yellow in our vision with cataracts that he believes that is why multiple artists have gone through “blue periods”
3) also I probably need to develop my skill set anyway

My story is to amplify yours. Many of your readers, students, and colorists around the world will be going through this same experience. It is very common in USA to undergo sequential cataract surgery in 60s and beyond. I’m not sure how common it is in other countries. 

None the less you will be starting a project that can be continued by, I’m sure, many volunteers.

The standardized tests are the most, well, standardized. So your information on them
will be the most reproducible.

About 18 months ago I took a couple of those tests to arrange colors in order. It frustrates me because I had to repeat the test twice to get an exact match in every single row. I found it interesting that I could learn the subtle differences with practice and then get perfect scores. I should retake them now to see if training held as well over time.

The history of medicine has many examples of both patients and doctors doing individual experiments that greatly added to the body of knowledge at the time. The more humorous are the earliest anesthetist sharing volatile liquids around the dinner table, which eventually resulted in the discovery of chloroform. More serious were patients about to be enucleated who offered to stare straight at the sun for hours to characterize the damage on their retinas.

I wonder if besides color perception, either from cataracts or genetics, if there are physiologic reasons that colorists and clients are better at assessing images of different sorts: landscapes, indoors, low light, animals, different but specific artificial lighting, etc. it could also be familiarity and practice, hopefully. 

Tom Hurd

On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Rick Gordon <lists@...> wrote:

 1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to 
...

--------------------
On November 6, 2020 at 11:37:54 AM [-0800], Dan Margulis Via Groups.io wrote in an email entitled "[colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity":
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

…
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


Jim Bean
 

hello colortheory,

 

Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.”

 

I have a similar setup as I replaced a single lens in my left eye and specified a ‘non-aged’ lens replacement.  two huge changes with that setup…1) new visual acuity (I sometimes make night-time aerial images of sporting events/marching bands/etc) is beyond belief… amazing detail at extended distances (day or night)   2) truly beautiful colors with that new (non-aged) replacement lens.

 

As my friend, Dan, stated, blues are great (although I would have expected him to use his classic, less yellow or more blue than yellow).  From the early 70s through today, I have printed my own color work including the color corrections. I now enjoy two options, ‘Pretty’ with the left eye and +15 or more units of yellow from my right eye. It does have advantages…  however, up to a certain point, I live or die with the info palette to immediately ‘get me into the ballpark’. I do not remember at any age being as impressed with the newer lens implant… of course my memory (except for my fishing exploits) at 71 may be a bit imprecise. Many of my fellow pros color correct by utilizing only their ‘color corrected’ monitors and other ‘profiled’ equipment. Their studio lighting is ‘nailed down’, most other projects are utilizing our abundant west texas sunlight… Their work is nice and consistent…outside of those venues, they defer to a lab to help them … their work from the lab is nice and consistent. However, if they were to “commence the hostilities” during one of Dan’s ‘beat downs’… they (as myself) would realize their work would not be among those selected for the final blending moves.

 

short note regarding customers not liking the color or not seeing similar colors: I do not know the percentage of eye surgeries or related events that might impact a customer’s eyesight.. I will state that the number of my mature customers

have no small amount of visual issues… and to assume comparison of the average customer to average eyesight might be a stretch.

 

With the exception of obvious skin variations (disorders), textures, age, during my 50+ years as a self-employed pro photographer, I do not recall a single customer that shared with me any real issues with the color of whatever prints we delivered.

My office has two large 60”x 60” windows and several overhead fluorescent fixtures (approx 52-5800kelvin)… currently ‘color correcting’ under generic white LED lamps.

 

If I were to guess/assume why there are not at least a few issues:

My highlights are most always clean,. not yellow, not pink/red.. possibly not white.. but ‘clean/neutral’ and consistent with the image content.  get the hightlight correct and even though there are other tone values within our images, you are almost certain to have a useable image.  Unfortunately for me, ‘useable’ doesn’t work.. I discard prints that would be considered perfect by the majority of other professionals.  an aside: one of the primary reasons that I elected to handle 100% of my color processing/printing services was due to the poor quality of the prints that generated by a local ‘pro’ lab.. I returned an 8x10 to the lab that was beyond yellow.. the plant manager’s only comment was: Did you show it to the customer?

 

I do not recall Dan’s term for ‘unbelievable’ colors. If you don’t have obvious issues, green skin or whatever, I do not believe that you would encounter the average consumer that would not be happy with the print. 

 

Certainly we all have a grasp regarding the viewing environment, mixed light sources, etc…  many, many people wear tinted contacts/glasses. I primarily print to Epson Premium luster and apply 1-2 coats of LacquerMat/satina… the reflective index and colors produced by those pigmented ink sets will never appear the same as the Fuji Crystal prints/or other media…

 

in closing, I can only suggest that it is the professional imaging industry’s responsibility to get it right as the majority of consumers are far more interesting in the image content than any other aspect. today’s trends are nothing more than

yesterday’s ‘happy colors’ that are now on steroids…  current examples can easily be viewed on most any realtor’s website.

 

regards and good times,

 

Jim Bean,

Scenic San Angelo, West Texas


Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:08 PM, Robert Wheeler <bwheeler350@...> wrote:

As a supplement to the online color testing, it might be useful for future cases to use actual images to quantify the differences between your two eyes (before they both have new lenses). Consider taking a few images that appear especially different to  your two eyes. For each, duplicate the image into side by side identical versions that you can switch on or off at will. Look at the left version with your left eye. Look at the right side version with your right side eye.

This test is easier said than done, I’m here to tell you. But I’m quite a ways through it. I assume I would have realized by Monday that this exercise was necessary, but maybe it would have been so obvious that I would have overlooked it, so many thanks for the suggestion.

Make adjustments to the version seen with your old lens eye until it looks the same to you through your old lens eye as the other un-adjusted image does when seen through your new lens eye. Then measure the LAB values for critical points in each version and record the values and differences, maybe averaged across the small test set.

That’s more work than it’s worth IMHO, because the findings would apply to me only. I’m more interested in the general principle of whether differing visual capabilities can have a significant impact on what is preferred in real images.

Possibly not as interesting as difference in preference, but might be useful to know the magnitude of the differences in your case as a baseline for comparison with others who might be willing to do the same exercise while waiting between lens replacements.

The magnitude would be different if I had waited six more months. Also, the majority of those having this surgery have the second eye in much worse condition than mine.

So the actual numbers wouldn’t be significant—except to me. And I would have to say I was surprised by how big they were, assuming that my current correction curve holds up.

Again, what I was trying to do was construct a set of curves that would show me, looking at the image with my new eye only, something that matched my recollection of what the original looked like when viewed with the old eye.

Applying my curve to a grayscale stepwedge, I find that 62L 0a 0b is perceived by the old eye (in the judgment of the new one) as 56L (2)a 15b. A pure white (100 L 0a 0b) is perceived as 91L 3a 17b. These are considerably bigger differences than I expected.

Thanks muchly for the suggestion of this exercise.

Dan


Randy Wright
 

I would suggest correcting a set of images with each eye, to see if there was some influence on your decision making process.

Randy Wright


smekleur
 

Op 6 nov. 2020 om 19:17 heeft Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> het volgende geschreven:

3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.
The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not.
Consider this:

https://www.xrite.com/categories/visual-assessment-tools/fm-100-hue-test
If two colors has become alike to this person’s eyes, you will know.
There’s also an online version. Using this would include the monitor. :-)

Greetz, Stefan


Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Frederick Yocum <frederick@...> wrote:


As important as this is, I find myself surprised again and again when I return to a color corrected image and realize I have left a major color shift or tonal shift insufficiently addressed. My eyes over exaggerated the effect I was having on the image, I need to go back and do more.

That’s right, because perception adjusts to the circumstances. That’s why at present I am not conscious of seeing any better overall than pre-surgery—provided I keep both eyes open. I’m actually being confronted with a yellow cast, but my visual system ignores it: that’s chromatic adaptation for you.

When looking at something colorful on the screen the eyes also adjust to what they are seeing. Look at a very yellow picture long enough and it won’t seem so yellow any more. Then, as you say, when you look at the same image the next day it seems lurid. This is why color-by-the-numbers is necessary, and why people who rely on “calibrated” monitors are so often disappointed.

Dan


Diana Kassir
 

In response to Jim's comment, Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene.....

I too, have the same differences in my eyes (which I just noticed this summer in my right (older?) and left eyes. I've felt very concerned about it. but haven't had the chance 
(nor insurance coverage) to follow up.

Any similar experiences appreciated!

BEST!
Diana Kassir


Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:34 PM, sj_90000 via groups.io <sj_90000@...> wrote:

The subtle colors between blues and reds are a lot more vivid. I guess it's because they're more closely balanced since there's no longer a "yellow" filter hindering the full effect of the blue. While doing some researching on cataracts I came across this very informative article. Hope you find it useful/interesting. Have fun with your new BLUES!

https://web.archive.org/web/20181230070529/http://vsri.ucdavis.edu/research/psychophysics

I note the claim that it takes three months for the vision to stabilize. I believe that this was true at one time but the surgical techniques are so advanced now that the adjustment time is much quicker. It also probably depends on how badly impaired the vision was originally.

Dan


Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Rick Gordon <lists@...> wrote:

1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to accustom yourself to the new baseline. I'd suggest making a third pass-through some time after having fully adjusted to the changes, and having responded to your entire visual perception having been altered, not just in relation to images, but everything that you see.

That’s the plan.

2) Are there shifts in your perception of sharpness? Do you find yourself wanting to sharpen a bit less as a result of increase contrast? What about your perception of the impact of local contrast maneuvers?

Too early to say but I believe in certain cases the answer is going to be yes, although likely there will be few. For example, if you happen to have a copy of MPCW handy, Figure 12.15 shows a Burmese wedding. The bride wears q white gown, but much of it is covered by a yellow veil, so we are forced to try gto distinguish a very light yellow from a white. My old eye is doing a poor job of that; I see much more contrast with the new one.

Now if this were the dominant object in the image instead of one of several important ones it might be different. But as it stands I’d bet that if looking with the old eye I’d use heavier settings in sharpening and/or a Hammer action.

Dan


john c.
 

I’d like to know if some floaters go away after surgery Dan. Most of the time we don’t notice them consciously because our minds tune them out, much like the ringing in our ears, but they’re always there interfering.
 
john castronovo
 

Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity
 
 

On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Rick Gordon <lists@...> wrote:
 
1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to accustom yourself to the new baseline. I'd suggest making a third pass-through some time after having fully adjusted to the changes, and having responded to your entire visual perception having been altered, not just in relation to images, but everything that you see.
 
That’s the plan.

2) Are there shifts in your perception of sharpness? Do you find yourself wanting to sharpen a bit less as a result of increase contrast? What about your perception of the impact of local contrast maneuvers?

Too early to say but I believe in certain cases the answer is going to be yes, although likely there will be few. For example, if you happen to have a copy of MPCW handy, Figure 12.15 shows a Burmese wedding. The bride wears q white gown, but much of it is covered by a yellow veil, so we are forced to try gto distinguish a very light yellow from a white. My old eye is doing a poor job of that; I see much more contrast with the new one.
 
Now if this were the dominant object in the image instead of one of several important ones it might be different. But as it stands I’d bet that if looking with the old eye I’d use heavier settings in sharpening and/or a Hammer action.
 
Dan
 


Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 8, 2020, at 1:34 PM, john c. <jc@...> wrote:

I’d like to know if some floaters go away after surgery Dan. Most of the time we don’t notice them consciously because our minds tune them out, much like the ringing in our ears, but they’re always there interfering.

So says my surgeon. He said I had a lot of them in the eye he operated on. I wasn’t, and am not, aware of this.

As I understand it, floaters are aggravated by stress, and I may have been stressing out the eye because it had become slightly nearsighted. After the surgery you may be able to visualize them better (I still have no clue that they’re there) but normally they get better. In the event that they get worse it can indicate a serious condition and should be checked out.



Rex Butcher
 


-- Fortunately, I don't think I yet need cataract surgery and although I am not looking forward to it, given that the lenses will be optically corrected, I will be interested in my 'appearance' given that I have worn glasses for the past 60 years!

However, there was a very interesting program on the BBC a few days ago, on a not unrelated topic.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000p35k/the-disordered-eye

Basically about blind artists, how they perceive  their subject and actually paint it.  Most of the greats had eyesight issues, and there is one very short and disturbing b&w  sequence showing a very early cataract operation.  Does not bear thinking about!

Toodle pip

Rex

What if the hokey cokey IS what it's all about??