Items in a series are normally separated by commas (but see 6.60). When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series of three or more, a comma—known as the serial or series comma or the Oxford comma—should appear before the conjunction. Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities (see bibliog. 1.2), since it prevents ambiguity. If the last element consists of a pair joined by and, the pair should still be preceded by a serial comma and the first and (as in the last two examples below).
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On the Simultaneous Contrast of Colors
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Dan Margulis
As a few of you know, for the past several years I’ve been working on a translation of the greatest color work every written, M.E. Chevreul’s 1839 classic On the Simultaneous Contrast of Colors. Obviously it needs a lot of modern commentary, plus he could not make the color graphics that he wanted to illustrate his points.
He was looking for a unified theory for all the visual arts. He is best known for his influence on painting, but he also covered everything from tapestries to mosaics to interior decoration to architecture to formal gardens. Not, however, photography. That’s where I have to fill in. Publication of this boondoggle will take place sometime in the next two months, everything is complete but I am giving it one last review. Owing to the nature of the project it wasn’t feasible to have a group of beta readers as in my previous books. Anyhow, in the Files section of this group I have posted a low-res version of the Chevreul book’s front and back cover. A free copy, when it comes out, to the first person to catch a typographical error! Dan Margulis |
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Daniele Di Stanio
Dear Dan! In the paragraph: "Half a century later, On the Law of Simultaneous Contrast of Colors had become “the scientific founda- tion of Impressionist and Neo-Impressionist painting,” according to Johannes Itten. “It is my Bible,” said Winslow Homer. Vincent van Gogh called it “a luminous theory of colors,” allowing “effects so violent that the human eye can scarcely stand to look at them.”" the comma is inside the “It is my Bible,” quote. I'm SO EXCITED about this, what a surprise!! Hugs, Daniele Di Stanio alberodelcolore.com, Founder colorduels.com, Founder fabbricacinema.com, Founder / CdA On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 8:18 PM dmargulis via Groups.Io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote: As a few of you know, for the past several years I’ve been working on a translation of the greatest color work every written, M.E. Chevreul’s 1839 classic On the Simultaneous Contrast of Colors. Obviously it needs a lot of modern commentary, plus he could not make the color graphics that he wanted to illustrate his points. |
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Laurentiu Todie
Hi Dan, I know that my English is weak, but I have decent chances to find eventual neological errors, or misused painting related terms. Thank you!
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1) The fourth sentence:
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The chemist M.E. Chevreul, after... I think needs a comma after "chemist," namely: The chemist, M.E. Chevreul, after... [Strunk and White, p. 14: "...never omit one comma and leave the other. There is no defense for such punctuation as Marjories husband, Colonel Nelson paid us a visit yesterday. or My brother you will be pleased to hear, is now in perfect health.] 2) And I'm not sure it can't be proper either way (I can't find dealing with name initials in Strunk and White), but I once had an editor who insisted that I put a space between the first and middle name initials, that is: The chemist M.E. Chevreul, after... (maybe) should be: The chemist M. E. Chevreul, after... I'm on the way out the door, and won't be able to proof-read the rest until later. -- George Machen On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:18 PM, dmargulis via Groups.Io wrote: A free copy, when it comes out, to the first person to catch a typographical error! |
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I disagree with George's comments. M.E. Chevreul is restrictive and thus not set off with commas.
For example, Mary husband, Harry, is a real smart character. (Set off with commas because Harry is nonrestrictive. Mary has only one husband.) If Mary and Harry have two sons named Frank and Tom, then consider the following sentence. Harry's son Frank won an academic award yesterday. (Frank is not set off with commas because you need to know which son is being referred to. Frank is restrictive.) The chemist M.E. Chevreul, after thorough examination, found nothing wrong with the dye. There are lots of chemists in this world. So we need to know which chemist is being referred to. It's M.E. Chevreul. So, it's restrictive and not set off with commas. The after thorough examination phrase is nonrestrictive and is set off with commas. Dan's sentence is properly punctuated. |
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Kevin Stecyk
Laurentiu Todie wrote:
Can you post a link to the folder or even to the book file? I know that my English is weak, but I have decent chances to find eventual neological errors, or misused painting related terms.
The direct link is as follows: https://groups.io/g/colortheory/files/Chevreul%20cover%20lowres%20110719.pdf You and others can also access it by going to https://groups.io/g/colortheory/files and then choosing "Chevreul cover lowres 110719.pdf" file. I hope that helps. Kevin |
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I am one of the few who already knew about this project. Moreover, I have reviewed draft versions of many chapters and caught many errors, not just typographical, but spelling, language and even more substantial ones.
As for the current contest, I believe non-native-English-speakers have a disadvantage here because typographical rules in English may differ from other languages. Nevertheless, I take a chance - Bottom left, "Effective uses of black, gray, and/or white" - the second comma should be removed. At least, In Dutch that's the rule. -- Gerald Bakker http://geraldbakker.nl |
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Gerald, you are referring to what is known as the "serial" or "Oxford" comma.
Tom, Harry, and Sue went to school yesterday. Do we put a comma after Harry? Some say yes, and some say no. Those who say yes, like me, believe in the serial or Oxford comma. Others, don't. Whatever one does, one needs to be consistent throughout the document. In other words, pick a style and stick with it. Chicago Manual of Style mandates keeping the serial comma. Below is a short excerpt. As chronicled in the New York Times, there is also a court case that was decided on the Oxford comma: "Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5 Million." (Subscription required, though, I believe if you register, you can read up to ten free articles per month.) 6: Punctuation |
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Laurentiu Todie
Thank you!
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Francis Corvin
As a non-native English speaker, I have learnt/learned that the
"rules" of written English are as many banana skins intended to let
the linguistically unaware slip up. Albion's perfidy started with
the word.
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The last comma before the "and" or "or" is called the Oxford comma and does or does not apply depending on the writer's whim (as long as the writer is consistent, so we'd need to read the rest of the book to know if there truly is a problem here). Many of these rules are exposed and often expunged in "Fowler's Modern English Usage", where it is explained that only the pedant and the insensitive (this is not directed at you, Gerald, nor at anyone here in particular) would try to apply them too rigorously, often at the expense of clarity and expressiveness. That said, to bring this back on topic, if after all this work there are still question marks over some of the translation, I'd be happy to bring my native knowledge of French to bear. Francis Corvin On 2019-11-10 21:11, Gerald Bakker
wrote:
I am one of the few who already knew about this project. Moreover, I have reviewed draft versions of many chapters and caught many errors, not just typographical, but spelling, language and even more substantial ones. |
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Dan Margulis
Having been away from the publishing world for so long I had forgotten some of the battles over trivialities. If I had a dollar for every hour I have wasted arguing with some illiterate who was trying to impose some arbitrary rule that some would-be authority has enunciated somewhere, I would be quite wealthy.
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In these idiotic ego-contests, I found it necessary to concede defeat on certain points so as to be victorious in others. I write (so I have informed innumerable editors) in Standard American English, which has a specific technical definition: it is the language spoken to strangers by educated native speakers, without the consciousness of any substandard usage such as profanities. And I am unwilling to write in any other language, or to bow to rules that exist in other languages but not in ours. For example, I refuse to give the word data a plural verb, not caring a bean that it happens to be plural in Latin. And I refuse to write the prissy fewer than six when less than six has been standard for 500 years. I get away with this because I give up on lesser points. For example, if a phrase surrounded by either parentheses or quotation marks ends with punctuation, the logical way, adopted by the British and I believe the Canadians as well, is that if the punctuation is a natural part of the phrase, it goes inside, otherwise outside. U.S. publishers, however, apply this only to a parenthetical phrase. Punctuation, they mandate, must always go within quotation marks, no matter what. Silly, but not worth arguing with them about. And since I have always been forced to write that way, for consistency I keep it so. But thanks for pointing it out, Daniele. SImilarly I abide by the publisher’s rule about serial commas. Sorry, Gerald, I agree with you that logic should omit them, but I have surrendered so as to live to fight another day.. I also abide by the ridiculous ”distinction” between which and that when introducing a clause, because readers don’t care either way. With respect to the question about commas raised by George, I agree with Kevin that the usage is correct as is. So, no winners yet, but the comments are much appreciated. Dan Margulis P.S. You should hear what editors say about me. It contains, how shall I put it, a whole squadron of substandard usages. P.P.S. To get back at a particularly obtuse editor, I wrote the following in CC1E: I happen to be fluent in certain dialects that sound foreign to other English speakers. I speak mid-century rural Oklahoman; Standard Modern Canadian; the weird noun-equals-verb jargon of1970s American university students; and the infamous New Jersey dialect. If I were to submit a manuscript in any one of these, the publisher would take me for being, respectively, illiterate, pretentious, incomprehensible, and obscene. So, instead, I write in Standard American (more or less), permitting the reader to take me for being all four at once. |
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Kevin Stecyk
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 03:15 PM, dmargulis wrote:
And I refuse to write the prissy fewer than six when less than six has been standard for 500 years.That piqued my curiosity. If you go to Google Ngram Viewer (https://books.google.com/ngrams), you can test to see which form is more popular in books over time. Dan will be happy to know that "less than six" is still far more popular than "fewer than six." You can test this by inputting "fewer than six,less than six" in the Ngram search bar. Ngram Viewer is a helpful tool when wanting to decide which route you might or should take. While it does not provide a definitive answer, it does provide a guide as to the popularity of various alternatives over time. Kevin |
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Second guess then. Bottom right: part of the barcode and accompanying number have been reversed. I would assume, the full number goes under the barcode, but the tail is above it.
-- Gerald Bakker http://geraldbakker.nl |
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Dan Margulis
On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Gerald Bakker <gc.bakker@...> wrote: Second guess then. Bottom right: part of the barcode and accompanying number have been reversed. I would assume, the full number goes under the barcode, but the tail is above it. That bar code was purchased directly from Bowker, the official ISBN vendor, so I doubt there is an issue. It looks similar to the format of the one we used for MPCW. Dan Margulis |
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Davide Barranca
Gerald Bakker wrote:
When I (as an Italian) had a native speaker proofread my book about Photoshop Scripting he told me that my "use of commas is... weird", but that "after a while one gets used to it". Consistency is still the key :-) Davide Barranca |
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Steve Oliver
In the first sentence of the third paragraph, I'd have put a comma after the right parenthesis.
Steve Oliver |
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At the risk of raising another triviality... The items of the bulleted list should not be ended by periods.
Here's what I found about it:
-- Gerald Bakker http://geraldbakker.nl |
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On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 01:29 PM, Gerald Bakker wrote:
At the risk of raising another triviality... The items of the bulleted list should not be ended by periods.With regard to bulleted lists and complete sentences, here's what Chicago Manual of Style says: "6.130: Vertical lists—capitalization, punctuation, and format" https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed17/part2/ch06/psec130.html (subscription required) Closing punctuation is used only if items consist of complete sentences. If none of the items in a bulleted list consist of complete sentences, however, each item can usually begin lowercase (except for proper nouns). For bulleted lists whose items require more prominence, capitalization may instead be preferred (as throughout this manual); choose one approach and follow it consistently.While Dan's bulleted items are not complete sentences, another style guide might allow bulleted incomplete sentences to be completed with a period. According to CMOS, the capitalization is okay if used consistently. Kevin |
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Brian Pylant
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 02:52 PM, Daniele Di Stanio wrote:
the comma is inside the “It is my Bible,” quote.Which is acceptable, in the US anyway. Some even consider it preferred. |
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I suggest:
I suggest "he particularly thought the black dye was defective" or "He was convinced the black dye was defective" Particularly, he felt that their black dye was defective His basic ideas were clear but his explanations of how to implement them were convoluted even in the original French |
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