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Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

John Furnes
 

I have been absent this week, and have not had the opportunity to follow the discussions.

Mine is #502.

I really learn a lot from what I do, Dan’s criticism and what others do. Particularly, the idea of noting (by Dan) to each entry with notion of L*a*b values where the most important scenes are, is an eye opener to me.

 

Thanks again Dan for letting us try these things out under your tutelage

 

John Furnes

 

 


Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Edward Bateman
 

Thank you so much Dan!

You are such a great teacher - and I love your sense of humor! You always amaze me... in so many ways. Thank you! As someone who teaches, it is a treat to get a critique from the Master. I always learn things from you... and my class worked on the Lion yesterday as a way to learn. It is so cool to already observe my students seeing more critically. And I have a color blind student who is amazed that now he can do good color correction! Thanks yet again!

Just a quick question. (I'm not afraid anymore to show my ignorance :)

Wouldn't the cyan/blue under lighting make the fountains visually seem more warm in contrast?

No, the subdued cyan underlighting simply means that the designers understood something that we’ve all just learned the hard way: warm casts, especially yellow ones, are quite obnoxious in this context. So they’re making sure that we perceive the water as a cool white, not a warm one.
Wish I knew how to thank you!

-Edward Bateman


Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Bill Theis
 

My apology to Paco Márquez.  I said of 528 "looks like the colors may have been painted it-they were not the actual residual colors" when it was explained that they were colors taken from behind the water in the buildings.  Great Job!! you did what I only was dreaming of and hoping for in my image 524.  What I did instead of retouching was to jack the fountain color up with another MMM+CB isolated to the fountain.  As am exercise. I did take and play with the hue of the water in my image to take it away from the orange/yellow and that is another important thing that totally escaped me.  And Dan is right that they wouldn't get be able to get a garish effect like I had in my image--but if they could, I'm sure they would.

A very satisfying and educational exercise, especially Dan's demonstrations.  I don't always think to blend things quite in those creative ways.  Thanks again. 


Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Kent Sutorius
 

Dan,
Thanks again with the thoroughness on critiquing our submissions. Thank you for the time you put into this. Especially thankful for the demonstration on my 520. Appreciate it!

Kent Sutorius


On 3/4/2021 12:48 PM, Dan Margulis via groups.io wrote:


Three of these entrants come from the MIT study itself. Since sharpening was not permitted, I have sharpened them now to give a fairer comparison to what we produced here.

Also, as I pointed out in a previous post, the five choices for the par don’t happen to be my five choices for the best version. Rather, I was trying for balance of several ideas.

In the introductory post I said I had made two measurements in each image, and I’m posting them here. First, I measured some relatively dark (but still presumably white) water from the left side of the fountain. Also, to gauge the darkness of the hotel, I measured a point on its left side, about halfway up. That point isn’t interesting by itself, but as a means of comparison with others. My recommendations: for the water, 0a0b is neutral. I’d say that values between (3)a and 3a are probably OK. I’d be really careful about positive B values—we’ve all heard how disagreeable so many versions are for being too yellow. Blue water is acceptable. So I recommend between (15)b and 2b.

For the hotel, where higher values are lighter, I’d recommend staying darker than 40L, maybe 45L at most.

As suggested offline, I am highlighting interesting demonstrations that you can try out for yourself.

Dan

******************** 

501 fountain (2)a37b; hotel 43L. Fittingly, we start right out with the yellowest water of all.

502 fountain 9a16b; hotel 39L. This person did not color-correct as such, saying that he could not find anything as a neutral. Don’t ask my why he didn’t think the darker water was. He selected the lake and the face of building for MMM Fine, and he used S/H and Lesser Hammer to get more detail in the fountains. See #506 and 507 for further comments about this version.

503 fountain 0a(5)b; hotel 41L. Chosen for the par version. The hotel is not really this shade of pink, but there is certainly a pinkish light source on its right side, so I think it’s fair to exaggerate it, just as it’s reasonable to exaggerate the yellow in the bell tower.

This person did much of his correcting in Lightroom and is one of the few successful entrants who didn’t use a Hammer action, so there isn’t as much detail in the fountains as others have. His approach instead was to use hiraloam sharpening of the water.

Although it’s already one of the top entrants, IMHO it tries to do too many things at once. I show a means of improving it at #523.

504 fountain 5a17b; hotel 46L. There’s that disagreeable strongly yellow water again, but that isn’t the only issue. #502 has very similar color but is much preferable for detail.

505 fountain (1)a19b; hotel 51L. Something bad happened in the center of the spray here, there is a sudden transition from white to yellow.

506 fountain 10a10b; hotel 46L. I did this version in 2017 when comparing my three-minute results to those of the MIT retouchers. Having access to the Bigger Hammer action made my version superior, but I wasn’t happy with it then or now. Some of the MIT retouchers had a very hard time with this photo, which is why you won’t see their average.

It looks like I thought sky detail should be suppressed. Looking at it now I wish the water were more neutral, but at least it’s a brown, not the yellow-green found elsewhere. Compare it to #502, which has competitive detail but will not be preferred to this version because of color.

507 fountain 6a12b; hotel 40L. Compared to some of the earlier versions this one moves in the right direction colorwise, but lacks punch. No Hammer action was used, so the water doesn’t have the pop it needs. Also, while this person did sharpen, it was at a much lower setting than what others are using.

Demonstration: Don’t get me wrong, this is still too yellow, but it can show us how devastating the extra yellow can be. Blend this one, in Color mode, over #502, which is only 3a3b warmer than this, and it’s a major difference.

508 fountain 0a(2)b; hotel 35L. MIT retoucher E, in my opinion, did a fine job considering that he wasn’t allowed to do any manual retouching, such as brightening up the bell tower. He stayed away from disagreeable colors, and the very dark hotel sets off the white water nicely.

509 fountain 0a0b; hotel 53L. This is like #508 in spirit, but not as successful. It demonstrates that one way to neutralize the water is to turn the whole area into grayscale. But pure neutrality in the foreground, darker water gives the show away. Note in comparing the two how much the darker hotel of #508 helps the presentation.

510 fountain (3)a29b; hotel 35L. Here’s that nasty yellow color again. Like many people, this guy correctly forced white into the lightest areas of the water but didn’t try to emulate it throughout.

511 fountain (2)a9b; hotel 52L. A reasonable version that represents something in early evening rather than the night conditions of almost everyone else.  Further notes about this version are at #513.

512 fountain 3a(13)b; hotel 40L. Another in the neutral-water-dark-hotel school of #508, with the addition of an attractive blue sheen in the center of the fountain that I wish were reflected in the foreground water. I rate #508 superior because it has much better detail in the water, but putting #508 on top of this one in Luminosity mode is better than either. This individual’s notes say

YouTube videos show fountain can be affected by colored lighting, seems most striking when almost white and when jets of water are somewhat distinct.

The first half of that last clause was achieved successfully, the second not.

513 fountain (6a)9b; hotel 53L. While Bigger Hammer is the majority choice for bringing out detail in the fountains, Frederick Yocum went with False Profile/multiplication. Since this left something to be desired,

Demonstration: when you need highlight detail, find another version that has it but is relatively light. #511 answers that description. Make a duplicate layer here, and apply #511 to it in Darken mode. As #511 is basically lighter than this one, the move only affects the fountains. Then, change mode of the duplicate layer to Luminosity, so as not to pick up #511’s color.

514 fountain 2a6b; hotel 56L. Chosen for the par version as a balancing move. The hotel isn’t that color in real life and I don’t find it an attractive choice, but then again it isn’t the color of #503 either. I also am not a big fan of the hiraloam sharpening of the water, but this is no disadvantage when it is averaged with four others.

Demonstration: As a matter of personal taste I would prefer a browner, or more golden-looking, hotel, also a darker one. LAB blending can make such moves easy. Here, seeing how yellow the Bellagio is, we understand that the B channel will be light. So, on a duplicate layer, blend the B channel into the A, Overlay mode, about 25% opacity or to taste. This will make the desired hue move. It is unlikely that anyone will notice that it also moves the blues slightly toward cyan, but I have no objection if it does.

Now, blend the B into the L, again Overlay mode, this time inverted, a bit higher opacity, let’s say 35%. This darkens the hotel, but it also lightens the blue lighting, which is welcome.

Of course in real life one would be more careful about getting the settings exactly right. See another comment about this version at #517.

515 fountain (1)a9b; hotel 43L. The person handled the water carefully, with both Bigger Hammer and a false profile. He also deliberately darkened the hotel and the sky. The problem, of course, is that it wound up colorless. How many of you, I wonder, took one look at it and decided it was terrible? If you did, it was a mistake. 

Just because a version has weaknesses doesn’t prevent it from having strengths. This one has excellent shape and sharpening, better then the large majority of entrants. So all that’s needed is a partner version with good color—or at least better color than this one. See further comment at #520.

516 fountain 2a6b; hotel 56L. Edward Bateman writes,

The aspect of this image that I puzzled over the most was the cyan around the base of the fountains... it made me wonder whether the fountain were illuminated by colored light... possibly because color in the bright fountains was beyond the camera's ability to capture due to exposure?  I did try more color in the fountains, but rejected that because the larger reflection in the water didn't show a strong color bias and went with a more neutral color edging towards the warm.

After going through this exercise I can explain that cyan lighting. I have seen this show many, many times and do not recall that they ever attempted to apply strongly colored lighting to the jets of water, although I think they have done it on holidays and other special occasions. In any case it would be quite difficult technically. This picture shows about 100 jets. The lake has, if I recall, 1,400.

No, the subdued cyan underlighting simply means that the designers understood something that we’ve all just learned the hard way: warm casts, especially yellow ones, are quite obnoxious in this context. So they’re making sure that we perceive the water as a cool white, not a warm one.

517 fountain 2a1b; hotel 52L. This is one of my favorites, but I did not choose it for the par because its eccentricities are too much like those of #503 and the par would get unbalanced if both were included. Since this one sways heavily toward pink as #514 does toward yellow, it shouldn’t be surprising that a 50-50 blend of the two is better than either.

518 fountain 8a(1)b; hotel 34L. Chosen for the par version. Excessive sharpening, and hotel is too yellow. but nice shape in water both foreground and fountain. Note that having the water too magenta, as it measures here, isn’t nearly as obnoxious as making it yellow.

519 fountain 6a16b; hotel 40L. Like several others, agreeable contrast, nasty color.

520 fountain 0a6b; hotel 40L. This person, like me, has seen the fountain show in person dozens of times, 

and unless the show is a fountain light show with colors, the water is always white not yellow in color. The Bellagio also turns on exterior purple lighting to hit the hotel. It doesn't reach the top. That is why I added a gradient tint to three quarters of the hotel. 

Although the hotel is properly dark, the fountains lack detail, as does the Bellagio name in the bell tower. This is therefore the opposite of #515: it has acceptable color, poor contrast. The two can be united but there are some complications, so

Demonstration: adding some of the contrast of #515 to #520 without changing color. Add a duplicate layer to #520 and set it to Luminosity mode. Now, apply #515 to that layer, but it shouldn’t be done in Normal mode because #515’s hotel is slightly lighter, which is undesirable. Therefore, choose Darker within the Apply Image command. The other problem with this blend is that it flattens the attractive sky. To correct this, move the layered file unflattened into LAB and use Blend If to exclude the blend wherever the B is negative. A slightly less effective way of doing it without leaving RGB is to check Mask=Red in the Apply Image box, still using Darken mode.

521 fountain (1)a(11)b; hotel 30L. Chosen for the par version, again for balance. I am generally not noted for conservatism, but this is my entry. As you can tell, my mindset was that this picture is not about the Las Vegas experience, but about these fountains only. So I wanted the hotel very dark (I originally had it even darker, and cut back, but even so it’s the darkest of any version except the weird #522). Also, I made a copy of the blue channel, increased sky contrast drastically, and used it to blend a cloud pattern into the deep blue. The idea of that was to further distract people from looking at the hotel. I also refrained from sharpening, trying for a dreamier look, which in retrospect may not have been too wise.

522 fountain 15a21b; hotel 8L. By comparison to this, my hotel in #521 hardly seems dark at all. As it stands, this has two major problems: if the scene was really this dark, nobody would be able to walk around without holding a flashlight; and much more detail would show up in the water. Right now the whole image is all highlight and shadow, very little of interest in the entire midrange.

523 fountain 6a21b; hotel 33L. Excellent contrast is derailed by horribly yellow water. The hotel is nicely dark. That means that this file could be used as an auxiliary with telling effect. 

Demonstration: #503 was good, but let’s make it better. On a duplicate layer, apply #523. You wouldn’t think that you’d have to use Darken mode for this blend considering that #523 is on the whole much darker than #503, but it has to be done that way to preserve all the yellow that #503 has crowbarred into the accents. After the blend, of course, the layer mode must change to Luminosity. You might also think that the proper opacity is 100%, since overall the contrast in #523 is much better. That wouldn’t quite work, however. If the hotel is as colorful as #503 is, it can’t be made hugely darker, it would look like something from another planet. So the overall move is, 1) duplicate layer; 2) apply #523 in Darken mode; 3) change mode to Luminosity; 4) reduce opacity to 67%.

Doing this results in something not just much better than either parent but better than any other entrant except #528, IMHO.

524 fountain not accurately measurable due to retouching; hotel 35L. Bill Theis explains this version as follows.

The fountains at the Bellagio are numerous, impressive in their height and patterns, and colorfully lit from below with lights.  Since I couldn't make bigger or more fountains, I went for color.  After all this is Vegas, baby.  This involved a mask and I added a second MMM+CB and went extreme with the settings.  So the colors that were there, were there. No painting in anything. However, the color looked posterized like it does in 505 so I did a blur of both A and B channels to distribute it using a radial blur at 90.  If you are going to photograph one small fountain out of many at a point when it is not tall and powerful, go for color.  Artistic choice.  Replacing the color on the par version with my color looks pretty good (and maybe 50% of my luminosity?)  

I also went with something I heard someone say that "when everything is colorful, nothing is colorful" so I intentionally didn't go overboard with the building behind the fountains or the sky.  In fact I removed all the purple at the lower part of the building so as not to distract from the fountain as well as keeping the entire background a bit dark

comparing mine to the other entries, I took the fountain color way over the top (the most colorful of any fountain) because, hey, it's Vegas and that's one of the things that impressed me about Bellagio's fountains.  others that went this way were 528 (which looks like the colors may have been painted it-they were not the actual residual colors) as well as 501 523, 529, 531 so I am not alone in the approach.  Colorless water is for waterfalls, not Vegas.

It is true that Vegas is noted for garish lighting, some of which is found on the shore. I understand that they occasionally attempt to light the jets of water but they couldn’t possibly get an effect like this one. Besides, as pointed out by Edward Bateman at #516, it’s clear that there’s some kind of subdued cyan lighting at the base. That’s an attempt to make sure the fountains are seen as chilly, and not of the objectionable color that so many of us engineered in.

525 fountain 7a9b; hotel 51L. Done entirely in Camera Raw in two minutes, yet one of the minority with good color as well as good detail. I would recommend blending #523 into it in Luminosity mode.

526 fountain 0a(2)b; hotel 44L.  The objectives, according to Harvey Nagai: 

Throughout the process I had the Niagara Falls case study in mind, so my correction portrays
the fountains captured at a singular instant, a freeze-frame, a single cel in a movie, so to
speak.  Maybe that's the best that be can done with this image.

But maybe the artist was presenting changing shapes, and rather than what I saw as two rings
of fountains, maybe the concept was shells of light, like a time-lapse presentation of a
flower blooming.

In that case maybe the fountains were meant to be seen as a translucent collective rather
than rings of individual skeletal sprays, morphing shapes rather than arcs moving in unison.

Blending the luminosity of a more blown-out image softened the raw details and made the sprays
brighter and more opaque.  Not quite what I had envisioned, I don't see anything more than
softer, brighter and more opaque (and more blown out).

Harvey then kicked the can down the road by submitting two versions, one with the familiar strong yellow feel and the other being corrected into #526, with the instruction that I should choose one. That wasn’t a difficult choice. It would also not have been difficult for Harvey to have moved away from the yellow cast in the quartertone without taking it out of the rest of the image as well. As it turned out, it has the flavor of a grayscale image, although certainly not to the extent of #509. That the water should basically be neutral doesn’t rule out all variation within it.

Demonstration: assuming that there’s no desire to make the hotel darker, or even more colorful, all we need is a version with roughly neutral water in the fountains but some variation therein, with some color in the foreground but a subdued hotel. That would be #521. Blend it into this one in Color mode and the hotel barely changes, but the lake becomes more believable and so do the fountains.

527 fountain (2)a10b; hotel 53L. The fatal yellowness here may have come from a creative move. The person states that he blended the blue channel into the red, Lighten mode at an unspecified opacity. Presumably, his motivation was to accentuate the cloud pattern in the sky. That’s OK, because the red channel was so heavy that the sky could not be made any other color than blue without replacing it entirely. But it was not OK in the foreground water, the reflections of which now tend to measure something like (3)a12b, very greenish-yellow.

528 fountain not accurately measurable due to retouching; hotel 36L.  Chosen for the par version. Paco Márquez has scored again with a version that seems to me clearly better than any other—if you are after the “Vegas” look, which some people aren’t. So this picture is in the same category as Bill Theis’s #524, but more tasteful. Paco has found ways to  emphasize every kind of light that might create excitement without overwhelming us with overall color. 

As Paco has posted his steps and there have been other comments about this version I won’t get into technique. I will discuss psychology, however.

Anyone who has ever visited this attraction will know that this presentation isn’t realistic but is intended to set a mood, to fool us into thinking that we are in a different reality. Its success in creating this illusion is shown by Steve Jenkins’ criticism that it seems to suppress the reflection of the fountain swarm in the dark water in the foreground. After all, many other versions that aren’t nearly as bright as this one have that area almost white, no?

No. Well, yes, they have that reflection brighter, but the idea that #528 is a brighter version a victim of Paco’s trickery. In fact, he has the second darkest hotel of any reasonable version. Only #521 has it darker. A large part of the success of this version depends on that darkness to set off the brilliant colors, and the white of the fountains. The reflections aren’t as light as in other versions because the other versions have a lighter lake.

529 fountain (9)a14b; hotel 43L. The production notes to this one state that the person doesn’t know how the water became green, but that it was even worse than it is now, so he toned it down with Hue/Saturation. He should have gone further. We know that we can’t tolerate yellowish water. A bluish fountain and lake might work. As it stands this version is appropriate for St. Patrick’s Day only.

530 fountain 1a7b; hotel 58L. This one puts the ball in play, but as we’re about to see, it can be greatly improved. The person messaged me his reasoning, with which I don’t always concur.

The casino and fountains are of equal importance.

Certainly that’s one valid interpretation.

The building is underexposed and needs lightening.

It may perhaps be that way from the standpoint of pure photography but in this context lightening it is a bad idea.

The fountains need detail brought out in the water to give a sense of motion.

Agreed.

Neutral highlights are at the base of the fountain and neutral darks in the windows top right. 

I don’t think the windows are necessarily black, they tint them heavily so that the sun can’t make the room unbearably hot.

In between there are no neutral areas to be concerned about.

Yes there are—those parts of the fountains that are significantly darker than a highlight.

Images on the web show both cool white lighting or warm yellow lighting on the fountains so I assume both are valid treatments. I have opted for colder lighting.

Three versions were merged each with a different starting point. Very colourful end product but this is Las Vegas!

Now by Las Vegas standards I don’t consider this very colorful, perhaps in some other city. But two problems remain: first, the water measures slightly yellow, though not as bad as others. Secondly, though acceptable, it’s slightly weak because the hotel shouldn’t have been lightened so much.

Demonstration: So, the temptation is to add #523 as a Luminosity layer to this one, let us say at 50% opacity. That’s an improvement, but the yellowness in the fountain persists. Instead, try a Normal layer at 50% with #521. That doesn’t seem to make contrast any worse but it does wipe out the yellowness, making IMHO a really excellent version.

That concludes my comments of substance. I hope that people will try this last demonstration, as well as the one at the end of #523, which produced really good results. And I hope you will have a good grasp of why this is so, and how it could be duplicated if you’re faced with such a challenge again.

Just quick comments on the remainder:

531 fountain 11a17b; hotel 49L.Water is blown out.  Strong warm cast. 

532 fountain 4a10b; hotel 39L. Here’s the effort of MIT retoucher B. It hardly stands up to that of his colleague in #508.

533 fountain 3a20b; hotel 59L. Bell tower blown out.

534 fountain 0a14b; hotel 48L. Gerald Bakker has already posted his own mea culpa about this one, so I won’t add anything.

535 fountain 2a15b; hotel 42L. Yellowish water, lacking in detail.

536 fountain 4a(6)b; hotel 39L. The par version.



Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Dan Margulis
 



Three of these entrants come from the MIT study itself. Since sharpening was not permitted, I have sharpened them now to give a fairer comparison to what we produced here.

Also, as I pointed out in a previous post, the five choices for the par don’t happen to be my five choices for the best version. Rather, I was trying for balance of several ideas.

In the introductory post I said I had made two measurements in each image, and I’m posting them here. First, I measured some relatively dark (but still presumably white) water from the left side of the fountain. Also, to gauge the darkness of the hotel, I measured a point on its left side, about halfway up. That point isn’t interesting by itself, but as a means of comparison with others. My recommendations: for the water, 0a0b is neutral. I’d say that values between (3)a and 3a are probably OK. I’d be really careful about positive B values—we’ve all heard how disagreeable so many versions are for being too yellow. Blue water is acceptable. So I recommend between (15)b and 2b.

For the hotel, where higher values are lighter, I’d recommend staying darker than 40L, maybe 45L at most.

As suggested offline, I am highlighting interesting demonstrations that you can try out for yourself.

Dan

******************** 

501 fountain (2)a37b; hotel 43L. Fittingly, we start right out with the yellowest water of all.

502 fountain 9a16b; hotel 39L. This person did not color-correct as such, saying that he could not find anything as a neutral. Don’t ask my why he didn’t think the darker water was. He selected the lake and the face of building for MMM Fine, and he used S/H and Lesser Hammer to get more detail in the fountains. See #506 and 507 for further comments about this version.

503 fountain 0a(5)b; hotel 41L. Chosen for the par version. The hotel is not really this shade of pink, but there is certainly a pinkish light source on its right side, so I think it’s fair to exaggerate it, just as it’s reasonable to exaggerate the yellow in the bell tower.

This person did much of his correcting in Lightroom and is one of the few successful entrants who didn’t use a Hammer action, so there isn’t as much detail in the fountains as others have. His approach instead was to use hiraloam sharpening of the water.

Although it’s already one of the top entrants, IMHO it tries to do too many things at once. I show a means of improving it at #523.

504 fountain 5a17b; hotel 46L. There’s that disagreeable strongly yellow water again, but that isn’t the only issue. #502 has very similar color but is much preferable for detail.

505 fountain (1)a19b; hotel 51L. Something bad happened in the center of the spray here, there is a sudden transition from white to yellow.

506 fountain 10a10b; hotel 46L. I did this version in 2017 when comparing my three-minute results to those of the MIT retouchers. Having access to the Bigger Hammer action made my version superior, but I wasn’t happy with it then or now. Some of the MIT retouchers had a very hard time with this photo, which is why you won’t see their average.

It looks like I thought sky detail should be suppressed. Looking at it now I wish the water were more neutral, but at least it’s a brown, not the yellow-green found elsewhere. Compare it to #502, which has competitive detail but will not be preferred to this version because of color.

507 fountain 6a12b; hotel 40L. Compared to some of the earlier versions this one moves in the right direction colorwise, but lacks punch. No Hammer action was used, so the water doesn’t have the pop it needs. Also, while this person did sharpen, it was at a much lower setting than what others are using.

Demonstration: Don’t get me wrong, this is still too yellow, but it can show us how devastating the extra yellow can be. Blend this one, in Color mode, over #502, which is only 3a3b warmer than this, and it’s a major difference.

508 fountain 0a(2)b; hotel 35L. MIT retoucher E, in my opinion, did a fine job considering that he wasn’t allowed to do any manual retouching, such as brightening up the bell tower. He stayed away from disagreeable colors, and the very dark hotel sets off the white water nicely.

509 fountain 0a0b; hotel 53L. This is like #508 in spirit, but not as successful. It demonstrates that one way to neutralize the water is to turn the whole area into grayscale. But pure neutrality in the foreground, darker water gives the show away. Note in comparing the two how much the darker hotel of #508 helps the presentation.

510 fountain (3)a29b; hotel 35L. Here’s that nasty yellow color again. Like many people, this guy correctly forced white into the lightest areas of the water but didn’t try to emulate it throughout.

511 fountain (2)a9b; hotel 52L. A reasonable version that represents something in early evening rather than the night conditions of almost everyone else.  Further notes about this version are at #513.

512 fountain 3a(13)b; hotel 40L. Another in the neutral-water-dark-hotel school of #508, with the addition of an attractive blue sheen in the center of the fountain that I wish were reflected in the foreground water. I rate #508 superior because it has much better detail in the water, but putting #508 on top of this one in Luminosity mode is better than either. This individual’s notes say

YouTube videos show fountain can be affected by colored lighting, seems most striking when almost white and when jets of water are somewhat distinct.

The first half of that last clause was achieved successfully, the second not.

513 fountain (6a)9b; hotel 53L. While Bigger Hammer is the majority choice for bringing out detail in the fountains, Frederick Yocum went with False Profile/multiplication. Since this left something to be desired,

Demonstration: when you need highlight detail, find another version that has it but is relatively light. #511 answers that description. Make a duplicate layer here, and apply #511 to it in Darken mode. As #511 is basically lighter than this one, the move only affects the fountains. Then, change mode of the duplicate layer to Luminosity, so as not to pick up #511’s color.

514 fountain 2a6b; hotel 56L. Chosen for the par version as a balancing move. The hotel isn’t that color in real life and I don’t find it an attractive choice, but then again it isn’t the color of #503 either. I also am not a big fan of the hiraloam sharpening of the water, but this is no disadvantage when it is averaged with four others.

Demonstration: As a matter of personal taste I would prefer a browner, or more golden-looking, hotel, also a darker one. LAB blending can make such moves easy. Here, seeing how yellow the Bellagio is, we understand that the B channel will be light. So, on a duplicate layer, blend the B channel into the A, Overlay mode, about 25% opacity or to taste. This will make the desired hue move. It is unlikely that anyone will notice that it also moves the blues slightly toward cyan, but I have no objection if it does.

Now, blend the B into the L, again Overlay mode, this time inverted, a bit higher opacity, let’s say 35%. This darkens the hotel, but it also lightens the blue lighting, which is welcome.

Of course in real life one would be more careful about getting the settings exactly right. See another comment about this version at #517.

515 fountain (1)a9b; hotel 43L. The person handled the water carefully, with both Bigger Hammer and a false profile. He also deliberately darkened the hotel and the sky. The problem, of course, is that it wound up colorless. How many of you, I wonder, took one look at it and decided it was terrible? If you did, it was a mistake. 

Just because a version has weaknesses doesn’t prevent it from having strengths. This one has excellent shape and sharpening, better then the large majority of entrants. So all that’s needed is a partner version with good color—or at least better color than this one. See further comment at #520.

516 fountain 2a6b; hotel 56L. Edward Bateman writes,

The aspect of this image that I puzzled over the most was the cyan around the base of the fountains... it made me wonder whether the fountain were illuminated by colored light... possibly because color in the bright fountains was beyond the camera's ability to capture due to exposure?  I did try more color in the fountains, but rejected that because the larger reflection in the water didn't show a strong color bias and went with a more neutral color edging towards the warm.

After going through this exercise I can explain that cyan lighting. I have seen this show many, many times and do not recall that they ever attempted to apply strongly colored lighting to the jets of water, although I think they have done it on holidays and other special occasions. In any case it would be quite difficult technically. This picture shows about 100 jets. The lake has, if I recall, 1,400.

No, the subdued cyan underlighting simply means that the designers understood something that we’ve all just learned the hard way: warm casts, especially yellow ones, are quite obnoxious in this context. So they’re making sure that we perceive the water as a cool white, not a warm one.

517 fountain 2a1b; hotel 52L. This is one of my favorites, but I did not choose it for the par because its eccentricities are too much like those of #503 and the par would get unbalanced if both were included. Since this one sways heavily toward pink as #514 does toward yellow, it shouldn’t be surprising that a 50-50 blend of the two is better than either.

518 fountain 8a(1)b; hotel 34L. Chosen for the par version. Excessive sharpening, and hotel is too yellow. but nice shape in water both foreground and fountain. Note that having the water too magenta, as it measures here, isn’t nearly as obnoxious as making it yellow.

519 fountain 6a16b; hotel 40L. Like several others, agreeable contrast, nasty color.

520 fountain 0a6b; hotel 40L. This person, like me, has seen the fountain show in person dozens of times, 

and unless the show is a fountain light show with colors, the water is always white not yellow in color. The Bellagio also turns on exterior purple lighting to hit the hotel. It doesn't reach the top. That is why I added a gradient tint to three quarters of the hotel. 

Although the hotel is properly dark, the fountains lack detail, as does the Bellagio name in the bell tower. This is therefore the opposite of #515: it has acceptable color, poor contrast. The two can be united but there are some complications, so

Demonstration: adding some of the contrast of #515 to #520 without changing color. Add a duplicate layer to #520 and set it to Luminosity mode. Now, apply #515 to that layer, but it shouldn’t be done in Normal mode because #515’s hotel is slightly lighter, which is undesirable. Therefore, choose Darker within the Apply Image command. The other problem with this blend is that it flattens the attractive sky. To correct this, move the layered file unflattened into LAB and use Blend If to exclude the blend wherever the B is negative. A slightly less effective way of doing it without leaving RGB is to check Mask=Red in the Apply Image box, still using Darken mode.

521 fountain (1)a(11)b; hotel 30L. Chosen for the par version, again for balance. I am generally not noted for conservatism, but this is my entry. As you can tell, my mindset was that this picture is not about the Las Vegas experience, but about these fountains only. So I wanted the hotel very dark (I originally had it even darker, and cut back, but even so it’s the darkest of any version except the weird #522). Also, I made a copy of the blue channel, increased sky contrast drastically, and used it to blend a cloud pattern into the deep blue. The idea of that was to further distract people from looking at the hotel. I also refrained from sharpening, trying for a dreamier look, which in retrospect may not have been too wise.

522 fountain 15a21b; hotel 8L. By comparison to this, my hotel in #521 hardly seems dark at all. As it stands, this has two major problems: if the scene was really this dark, nobody would be able to walk around without holding a flashlight; and much more detail would show up in the water. Right now the whole image is all highlight and shadow, very little of interest in the entire midrange.

523 fountain 6a21b; hotel 33L. Excellent contrast is derailed by horribly yellow water. The hotel is nicely dark. That means that this file could be used as an auxiliary with telling effect. 

Demonstration: #503 was good, but let’s make it better. On a duplicate layer, apply #523. You wouldn’t think that you’d have to use Darken mode for this blend considering that #523 is on the whole much darker than #503, but it has to be done that way to preserve all the yellow that #503 has crowbarred into the accents. After the blend, of course, the layer mode must change to Luminosity. You might also think that the proper opacity is 100%, since overall the contrast in #523 is much better. That wouldn’t quite work, however. If the hotel is as colorful as #503 is, it can’t be made hugely darker, it would look like something from another planet. So the overall move is, 1) duplicate layer; 2) apply #523 in Darken mode; 3) change mode to Luminosity; 4) reduce opacity to 67%.

Doing this results in something not just much better than either parent but better than any other entrant except #528, IMHO.

524 fountain not accurately measurable due to retouching; hotel 35L. Bill Theis explains this version as follows.

The fountains at the Bellagio are numerous, impressive in their height and patterns, and colorfully lit from below with lights.  Since I couldn't make bigger or more fountains, I went for color.  After all this is Vegas, baby.  This involved a mask and I added a second MMM+CB and went extreme with the settings.  So the colors that were there, were there. No painting in anything. However, the color looked posterized like it does in 505 so I did a blur of both A and B channels to distribute it using a radial blur at 90.  If you are going to photograph one small fountain out of many at a point when it is not tall and powerful, go for color.  Artistic choice.  Replacing the color on the par version with my color looks pretty good (and maybe 50% of my luminosity?)  

I also went with something I heard someone say that "when everything is colorful, nothing is colorful" so I intentionally didn't go overboard with the building behind the fountains or the sky.  In fact I removed all the purple at the lower part of the building so as not to distract from the fountain as well as keeping the entire background a bit dark

comparing mine to the other entries, I took the fountain color way over the top (the most colorful of any fountain) because, hey, it's Vegas and that's one of the things that impressed me about Bellagio's fountains.  others that went this way were 528 (which looks like the colors may have been painted it-they were not the actual residual colors) as well as 501 523, 529, 531 so I am not alone in the approach.  Colorless water is for waterfalls, not Vegas.

It is true that Vegas is noted for garish lighting, some of which is found on the shore. I understand that they occasionally attempt to light the jets of water but they couldn’t possibly get an effect like this one. Besides, as pointed out by Edward Bateman at #516, it’s clear that there’s some kind of subdued cyan lighting at the base. That’s an attempt to make sure the fountains are seen as chilly, and not of the objectionable color that so many of us engineered in.

525 fountain 7a9b; hotel 51L. Done entirely in Camera Raw in two minutes, yet one of the minority with good color as well as good detail. I would recommend blending #523 into it in Luminosity mode.

526 fountain 0a(2)b; hotel 44L.  The objectives, according to Harvey Nagai: 

Throughout the process I had the Niagara Falls case study in mind, so my correction portrays
the fountains captured at a singular instant, a freeze-frame, a single cel in a movie, so to
speak.  Maybe that's the best that be can done with this image.

But maybe the artist was presenting changing shapes, and rather than what I saw as two rings
of fountains, maybe the concept was shells of light, like a time-lapse presentation of a
flower blooming.

In that case maybe the fountains were meant to be seen as a translucent collective rather
than rings of individual skeletal sprays, morphing shapes rather than arcs moving in unison.

Blending the luminosity of a more blown-out image softened the raw details and made the sprays
brighter and more opaque.  Not quite what I had envisioned, I don't see anything more than
softer, brighter and more opaque (and more blown out).

Harvey then kicked the can down the road by submitting two versions, one with the familiar strong yellow feel and the other being corrected into #526, with the instruction that I should choose one. That wasn’t a difficult choice. It would also not have been difficult for Harvey to have moved away from the yellow cast in the quartertone without taking it out of the rest of the image as well. As it turned out, it has the flavor of a grayscale image, although certainly not to the extent of #509. That the water should basically be neutral doesn’t rule out all variation within it.

Demonstration: assuming that there’s no desire to make the hotel darker, or even more colorful, all we need is a version with roughly neutral water in the fountains but some variation therein, with some color in the foreground but a subdued hotel. That would be #521. Blend it into this one in Color mode and the hotel barely changes, but the lake becomes more believable and so do the fountains.

527 fountain (2)a10b; hotel 53L. The fatal yellowness here may have come from a creative move. The person states that he blended the blue channel into the red, Lighten mode at an unspecified opacity. Presumably, his motivation was to accentuate the cloud pattern in the sky. That’s OK, because the red channel was so heavy that the sky could not be made any other color than blue without replacing it entirely. But it was not OK in the foreground water, the reflections of which now tend to measure something like (3)a12b, very greenish-yellow.

528 fountain not accurately measurable due to retouching; hotel 36L.  Chosen for the par version. Paco Márquez has scored again with a version that seems to me clearly better than any other—if you are after the “Vegas” look, which some people aren’t. So this picture is in the same category as Bill Theis’s #524, but more tasteful. Paco has found ways to  emphasize every kind of light that might create excitement without overwhelming us with overall color. 

As Paco has posted his steps and there have been other comments about this version I won’t get into technique. I will discuss psychology, however.

Anyone who has ever visited this attraction will know that this presentation isn’t realistic but is intended to set a mood, to fool us into thinking that we are in a different reality. Its success in creating this illusion is shown by Steve Jenkins’ criticism that it seems to suppress the reflection of the fountain swarm in the dark water in the foreground. After all, many other versions that aren’t nearly as bright as this one have that area almost white, no?

No. Well, yes, they have that reflection brighter, but the idea that #528 is a brighter version a victim of Paco’s trickery. In fact, he has the second darkest hotel of any reasonable version. Only #521 has it darker. A large part of the success of this version depends on that darkness to set off the brilliant colors, and the white of the fountains. The reflections aren’t as light as in other versions because the other versions have a lighter lake.

529 fountain (9)a14b; hotel 43L. The production notes to this one state that the person doesn’t know how the water became green, but that it was even worse than it is now, so he toned it down with Hue/Saturation. He should have gone further. We know that we can’t tolerate yellowish water. A bluish fountain and lake might work. As it stands this version is appropriate for St. Patrick’s Day only.

530 fountain 1a7b; hotel 58L. This one puts the ball in play, but as we’re about to see, it can be greatly improved. The person messaged me his reasoning, with which I don’t always concur.

The casino and fountains are of equal importance.

Certainly that’s one valid interpretation.

The building is underexposed and needs lightening.

It may perhaps be that way from the standpoint of pure photography but in this context lightening it is a bad idea.

The fountains need detail brought out in the water to give a sense of motion.

Agreed.

Neutral highlights are at the base of the fountain and neutral darks in the windows top right. 

I don’t think the windows are necessarily black, they tint them heavily so that the sun can’t make the room unbearably hot.

In between there are no neutral areas to be concerned about.

Yes there are—those parts of the fountains that are significantly darker than a highlight.

Images on the web show both cool white lighting or warm yellow lighting on the fountains so I assume both are valid treatments. I have opted for colder lighting.

Three versions were merged each with a different starting point. Very colourful end product but this is Las Vegas!

Now by Las Vegas standards I don’t consider this very colorful, perhaps in some other city. But two problems remain: first, the water measures slightly yellow, though not as bad as others. Secondly, though acceptable, it’s slightly weak because the hotel shouldn’t have been lightened so much.

Demonstration: So, the temptation is to add #523 as a Luminosity layer to this one, let us say at 50% opacity. That’s an improvement, but the yellowness in the fountain persists. Instead, try a Normal layer at 50% with #521. That doesn’t seem to make contrast any worse but it does wipe out the yellowness, making IMHO a really excellent version.

That concludes my comments of substance. I hope that people will try this last demonstration, as well as the one at the end of #523, which produced really good results. And I hope you will have a good grasp of why this is so, and how it could be duplicated if you’re faced with such a challenge again.

Just quick comments on the remainder:

531 fountain 11a17b; hotel 49L.Water is blown out.  Strong warm cast. 

532 fountain 4a10b; hotel 39L. Here’s the effort of MIT retoucher B. It hardly stands up to that of his colleague in #508.

533 fountain 3a20b; hotel 59L. Bell tower blown out.

534 fountain 0a14b; hotel 48L. Gerald Bakker has already posted his own mea culpa about this one, so I won’t add anything.

535 fountain 2a15b; hotel 42L. Yellowish water, lacking in detail.

536 fountain 4a(6)b; hotel 39L. The par version.


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

john c.
 

Indeed it’s true that the water might’ve been any color when the pic was taken, but for the purposes of a single tell all version, it’s legitimate to tell the story that all colors are possible in one still frame. This image demands a video, but we’re stuck with one view, so permission to lie is granted.
 
j castronovo
 
 

Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [colortheory] Bellagio at Night: Results
 
As I have done quite some work on Lighting Design Photography projects for public spaces and private ventures, with several hundreds of LED luminaires pre-programmed and blasting all sorts of color combinations, I felt inclined to assign a colored value to the water and it's reflection and not remotely consider a neutral approach to it. So yes, the pee versions are, in my opinion, totally justified.

Only the shooter who was there at the right moment could tell if the color of the water was more yellow, more green more orange, more neutral or whatever in-between mix, to be assigned as the "right" color for the water.  Actually, in such dynamic flow of the lighting programming, you may be shooting with a starting color and a fraction of a second later have a different one, and the end result in a photo may be a non-existent mix of those.

All other color considerations follow this decision-making process and the lack of this piece of info, is what brings out so many versions of the fountain. Very interesting indeed!!

Jorge Parra
Jorge Parra
www.jJorgeParraPhotography.com
Miami


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

jorgeparraphotography
 

As I have done quite some work on Lighting Design Photography projects for public spaces and private ventures, with several hundreds of LED luminaires pre-programmed and blasting all sorts of color combinations, I felt inclined to assign a colored value to the water and it's reflection and not remotely consider a neutral approach to it. So yes, the pee versions are, in my opinion, totally justified. 

Only the shooter who was there at the right moment could tell if the color of the water was more yellow, more green more orange, more neutral or whatever in-between mix, to be assigned as the "right" color for the water.  Actually, in such dynamic flow of the lighting programming, you may be shooting with a starting color and a fraction of a second later have a different one, and the end result in a photo may be a non-existent mix of those.

All other color considerations follow this decision-making process and the lack of this piece of info, is what brings out so many versions of the fountain. Very interesting indeed!!

Jorge Parra
Jorge Parra 
www.jJorgeParraPhotography.com
Miami


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

sj_90000@...
 

Hi all,
 
More observations:
 
The sky should probably be the least important part of the image. Especially since the name of the exercise was "Bellagio at Night", and also Dan mentioned this in his intro. So images where the sky competes with the other elements is a distraction from the focal element; the fountain. As an example, 518 seems lost as to where your eye should be looking – *all* the elements seem to compete. But the sky being the lightest, well that's where my eye goes. Or 503, which I like a lot, except, for me, the sky's too light and competes for focus. Ultimately the sky determines whether this is a front or rear lit scene - I vote for front lit. Otherwise the building needs to be darker than the sky, and that creates other ambiguities, like how can the sky be that light and not contribute considerably to the overall lighting?
 
The fountain reflection is another area that detracted/distracted from the realism in a lot of images - sometimes with obvious disparities, ignoring how reflections work. As an example take entry 528. I really like this interpretation a lot, but something just didn't seem right. I didn't realize exactly what it was until flipping between other entries. What I noticed is the almost complete suppression of the fountain reflection - what liquid doesn't reflect? Consequently the fountain seems to float in some sort of light absorbing material. Remember the rule of thumb, the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection? So an otherwise superior image slips into the realm of the surreal. And unfortunately, once I noticed that anomaly, I can’t unsee it. Or take 503, another well done image, but where does the cyan/blue color in the reflection come from? Nothing else in the image has that color. So what is the reflection of? I’m guessing that the “par” version included 503, as it also shows this issue.
 
Please don’t take any of these comments personally. I’m still learning too! These are just ramblings. If you disagree, please speak up. Thanks.
 
Steve


Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Kent Sutorius
 

Love the instruction. Fantastic!

Kent Sutorius


On 3/3/2021 9:41 AM, Dan Margulis via groups.io wrote:
In my portion of On the Law of Simultaneous Contrast of Colors I did a long series on paintings and photographs of NIagara Falls, concluding that the best examples of each relied on heavily exaggerating both the color of the water and its contrast. Why is this necessary? Because so many things about Niagara Falls can’t be captured by cameras that if we tried to portray the scene “realistically” it would be boring and in no way reflect how impressive the subject is.

Same thing here. Consider the things beyond a camera’s capability, and let’s have a competition between the two attractions.

1) The sense of sound: a continuous, thunderous roar vs. constantly changing, high-class music. Both impressive, but Advantage: Niagara.

2) The sense of constant motion. Both are impressive and fascinating, but Niagara is repetitive, so Advantage: Bellagio.

3) The inability to portray scale. The picture we’re working on hardly suggests the enormity of the Bellagio, but suggesting the size of Niagara Falls in a photo is impossible, so Advantage: Niagara.

4) The senses of smell/taste. Not much in Las Vegas, but there’s so much spray in the air at the falls that you can smell it. Winner by Default: Niagara.

5) The sense of touch. The spray of Niagara can sting the skin, but in a hot, dry climate, the breeze from an artificial lake and the mist from the fountains are an amazing sensation. Advantage: Bellagio.

For these reasons, I opened by describing Niagara as “an assault on all the senses.”  Compare that to the opening of the Bellagio’s own page, “The Fountains of Bellagio were destined to romance your senses.”

That page continues,
It is the most ambitious, complex water feature ever conceived and it’s absolutely free for any visitor to enjoy. Step back, or find a comfortable perch to sit, and watch against the backdrop of the Las Vegas lavender sky. Each performance is unique in expression and interpretation so no matter how many times you have seen the Fountains, they always have more in store to wow you with. Fall in love with this unprecedented aquatic accomplishment.

Assuming that we have been specifically assigned to illustrate this paragraph with this one photo only, it seems clear that #521 is the best. The water stands out, the hotel itself is played down without eliminating some of the strong color touches at the edges.

But of course we weren’t necessarily assigned that. It could be part of a series of shots taken at different times and from different angles, in which case something as exaggerated as #521 won’t work. Or it could be that we are supposed to illustrate the “Las Vegas experience”, of which the Fountains are only a part. In that case, John Castronovo said it better than I can:

I have to say that the one that really appeals to me is 528. The par version is a close second. I agree with Steve that any version that had dirty looking yellow or greenish water was displeasing. I do want to see a lot of blue in the sky and it all has to look rich and colorful, fun and exciting as possible to be appealing for Vegas clientele. i think 528 does all that without going overboard.

I agree completely. If it’s not just about the fountains but is promotional for the Bellagio as a whole, or for Las Vegas, then #528 is the clear choice.

And if you can’t quite agree with either extreme, you might like the par, because both #521 and #528 are lies, the real scene doesn’t look like that and everybody knows it, the version is setting a mood and we are allowed to exaggerate. 

Interestingly, when this much depends on interpretation blends don’t work as well as they usually do. You may think you want something halfway between #521 and #528, but blending them 50-50, IMHO, makes a version worse than either parent.

This makes choosing the par components hard. This is the first time I chose versions that are clearly not among the five best, because there had to be balance or the par wouldn’t look natural.

Then again, there weren’t as many credible alternatives to choose from as one would like. This group’s membership contributed 31 of the 35 entries shown. I rated them in three categories:

1) The original has little detail in the fountain. Did your correction add an acceptable amount? Yes 26, No 5

2) Is your handling of all other questions of detailing and weight acceptable? Yes 25, No 6

3) Is your overall color acceptable? Yes 11, No 20.

If this were a less sophisticated group, you’d expect a worse result on #1 because they wouldn’t know some of our tricks for adding highlight detail. But I sure hope they would do better on #3!

Almost all these failures were due to yellow water. Fortunately, several people have commented on what that color reminds them of, so it need not be specific here. Given the desert climate,  the water is supposed to be cool and refreshing, not dirty in any sense. Yet so many people remarked in their notes that they had measured the brightest part of the water and made sure it was neutral—yet, obviously, they neglected to measure the darker parts.

I chose this one to come directly after Sunset on the Beach because, among other reasons, it proves that just because adding warmth to one picture is good it won’t necessarily be good for another. If anything, this water should be cool—blue, not yellow.

Demonstration: I dropped a sampler point in the left side of the fountain, set it to read LAB values, and measured each version. This is how I recommend anyone evaluate color in such a case: 0a0b is neutral; positive values are warm, negative ones cold. Here, the A is rarely important; we concentrate on the B, blue vs. yellow.

A dozen different people submitted entries where this point measured 15b or greater—wildly yellow. There is no point beating those particular dead horses, but to show why yellow is bad, I’ve picked three versions where the reading is a more moderate 10b to 14b. And to show that it’s the yellowness and not the non-neutrality that’s the issue, we have an easy comparison. It happens that three entrants went in the other direction: their measurement is between (10)b and (14)b. So I suggest opening them up, and seeing which side you think wins.

THE YELLOW TEAM: ##507, 527, and 534.

THE BLUE TEAM: ##512, 521, and 528

I can’t see how any member of the yellow team would ever be preferred to any member of the blue team—even if we compare the yellow #534, which has excellent detail in the water, to the blue-magenta #512, where it is terrible. The solution would be to blend #512 at an opacity of choice, into #534 in Color mode.

That would make a dramatic improvement in #534, but not enough to make it one of the top entrants for a different reason that also applies to many other entrants.

Demonstration: The idea is to portray the water as white, or something close. One of the best ways to emphasize whiteness is with a dark background. The darker the hotel, the more pronounced the water will be. All successful versions have pretty much the same lightness values in the water, but they vary in the hotel. I’ve measured another point, something I think is typical at center left of the hotel. When we read L values, a lower number is darker, with a value of 0 being absolute black and 100 absolute white. #534 measures 48L, which is slightly too light (high) IMHO. I’d prefer something 40 or lower.

To see the impact, I’ve chosen six images where the color is reasonable and not eccentric. From darkest to lightest, they are:

#521 (30L)
#528 (36L)
#526 (44L)
#511 (52L)
#516 (56L)
#530 (56L)

Check them out, and see if you don’t agree that this is also the order from most to least dramatic presentation of the fountains themselves. #528 is fine as it stands, but each of the four lighter ones would be improved by a 50% blend of #521 in Luminosity mode. The impact of that blend would mostly be to darken the hotel.

The color of the water and the darkness of the hotel are the big items in this picture but I’ll mention three other desirable features.

*The name Bellagio in the bell tower should be enhanced so that it is readable. The majority of entrants did so.

*The darker foreground water is better if it can be made cooler.

*The garish blue, cyan, and magenta lighting at right is actually beneficial to portraying the fountain as white. So it shouldn’t be suppressed, it should maybe even be enhanced.

Comments on individual versions in a later post.

Dan



Re: Bellagio: Dan's comments

Paco
 

Wow Dan that was thorough and illuminating! 🌟Thanks for taking the time to do these for the group! 🏆🥳


Bellagio: Dan's comments

Dan Margulis
 

In my portion of On the Law of Simultaneous Contrast of Colors I did a long series on paintings and photographs of NIagara Falls, concluding that the best examples of each relied on heavily exaggerating both the color of the water and its contrast. Why is this necessary? Because so many things about Niagara Falls can’t be captured by cameras that if we tried to portray the scene “realistically” it would be boring and in no way reflect how impressive the subject is.

Same thing here. Consider the things beyond a camera’s capability, and let’s have a competition between the two attractions.

1) The sense of sound: a continuous, thunderous roar vs. constantly changing, high-class music. Both impressive, but Advantage: Niagara.

2) The sense of constant motion. Both are impressive and fascinating, but Niagara is repetitive, so Advantage: Bellagio.

3) The inability to portray scale. The picture we’re working on hardly suggests the enormity of the Bellagio, but suggesting the size of Niagara Falls in a photo is impossible, so Advantage: Niagara.

4) The senses of smell/taste. Not much in Las Vegas, but there’s so much spray in the air at the falls that you can smell it. Winner by Default: Niagara.

5) The sense of touch. The spray of Niagara can sting the skin, but in a hot, dry climate, the breeze from an artificial lake and the mist from the fountains are an amazing sensation. Advantage: Bellagio.

For these reasons, I opened by describing Niagara as “an assault on all the senses.”  Compare that to the opening of the Bellagio’s own page, “The Fountains of Bellagio were destined to romance your senses.”

That page continues,
It is the most ambitious, complex water feature ever conceived and it’s absolutely free for any visitor to enjoy. Step back, or find a comfortable perch to sit, and watch against the backdrop of the Las Vegas lavender sky. Each performance is unique in expression and interpretation so no matter how many times you have seen the Fountains, they always have more in store to wow you with. Fall in love with this unprecedented aquatic accomplishment.

Assuming that we have been specifically assigned to illustrate this paragraph with this one photo only, it seems clear that #521 is the best. The water stands out, the hotel itself is played down without eliminating some of the strong color touches at the edges.

But of course we weren’t necessarily assigned that. It could be part of a series of shots taken at different times and from different angles, in which case something as exaggerated as #521 won’t work. Or it could be that we are supposed to illustrate the “Las Vegas experience”, of which the Fountains are only a part. In that case, John Castronovo said it better than I can:

I have to say that the one that really appeals to me is 528. The par version is a close second. I agree with Steve that any version that had dirty looking yellow or greenish water was displeasing. I do want to see a lot of blue in the sky and it all has to look rich and colorful, fun and exciting as possible to be appealing for Vegas clientele. i think 528 does all that without going overboard.

I agree completely. If it’s not just about the fountains but is promotional for the Bellagio as a whole, or for Las Vegas, then #528 is the clear choice.

And if you can’t quite agree with either extreme, you might like the par, because both #521 and #528 are lies, the real scene doesn’t look like that and everybody knows it, the version is setting a mood and we are allowed to exaggerate. 

Interestingly, when this much depends on interpretation blends don’t work as well as they usually do. You may think you want something halfway between #521 and #528, but blending them 50-50, IMHO, makes a version worse than either parent.

This makes choosing the par components hard. This is the first time I chose versions that are clearly not among the five best, because there had to be balance or the par wouldn’t look natural.

Then again, there weren’t as many credible alternatives to choose from as one would like. This group’s membership contributed 31 of the 35 entries shown. I rated them in three categories:

1) The original has little detail in the fountain. Did your correction add an acceptable amount? Yes 26, No 5

2) Is your handling of all other questions of detailing and weight acceptable? Yes 25, No 6

3) Is your overall color acceptable? Yes 11, No 20.

If this were a less sophisticated group, you’d expect a worse result on #1 because they wouldn’t know some of our tricks for adding highlight detail. But I sure hope they would do better on #3!

Almost all these failures were due to yellow water. Fortunately, several people have commented on what that color reminds them of, so it need not be specific here. Given the desert climate,  the water is supposed to be cool and refreshing, not dirty in any sense. Yet so many people remarked in their notes that they had measured the brightest part of the water and made sure it was neutral—yet, obviously, they neglected to measure the darker parts.

I chose this one to come directly after Sunset on the Beach because, among other reasons, it proves that just because adding warmth to one picture is good it won’t necessarily be good for another. If anything, this water should be cool—blue, not yellow.

Demonstration: I dropped a sampler point in the left side of the fountain, set it to read LAB values, and measured each version. This is how I recommend anyone evaluate color in such a case: 0a0b is neutral; positive values are warm, negative ones cold. Here, the A is rarely important; we concentrate on the B, blue vs. yellow.

A dozen different people submitted entries where this point measured 15b or greater—wildly yellow. There is no point beating those particular dead horses, but to show why yellow is bad, I’ve picked three versions where the reading is a more moderate 10b to 14b. And to show that it’s the yellowness and not the non-neutrality that’s the issue, we have an easy comparison. It happens that three entrants went in the other direction: their measurement is between (10)b and (14)b. So I suggest opening them up, and seeing which side you think wins.

THE YELLOW TEAM: ##507, 527, and 534.

THE BLUE TEAM: ##512, 521, and 528

I can’t see how any member of the yellow team would ever be preferred to any member of the blue team—even if we compare the yellow #534, which has excellent detail in the water, to the blue-magenta #512, where it is terrible. The solution would be to blend #512 at an opacity of choice, into #534 in Color mode.

That would make a dramatic improvement in #534, but not enough to make it one of the top entrants for a different reason that also applies to many other entrants.

Demonstration: The idea is to portray the water as white, or something close. One of the best ways to emphasize whiteness is with a dark background. The darker the hotel, the more pronounced the water will be. All successful versions have pretty much the same lightness values in the water, but they vary in the hotel. I’ve measured another point, something I think is typical at center left of the hotel. When we read L values, a lower number is darker, with a value of 0 being absolute black and 100 absolute white. #534 measures 48L, which is slightly too light (high) IMHO. I’d prefer something 40 or lower.

To see the impact, I’ve chosen six images where the color is reasonable and not eccentric. From darkest to lightest, they are:

#521 (30L)
#528 (36L)
#526 (44L)
#511 (52L)
#516 (56L)
#530 (56L)

Check them out, and see if you don’t agree that this is also the order from most to least dramatic presentation of the fountains themselves. #528 is fine as it stands, but each of the four lighter ones would be improved by a 50% blend of #521 in Luminosity mode. The impact of that blend would mostly be to darken the hotel.

The color of the water and the darkness of the hotel are the big items in this picture but I’ll mention three other desirable features.

*The name Bellagio in the bell tower should be enhanced so that it is readable. The majority of entrants did so.

*The darker foreground water is better if it can be made cooler.

*The garish blue, cyan, and magenta lighting at right is actually beneficial to portraying the fountain as white. So it shouldn’t be suppressed, it should maybe even be enhanced.

Comments on individual versions in a later post.

Dan


Re: Retired need to sell off some kit

john c.
 

The analog photo user's group recently combined with two other film based groups to form Photrio

https://www.photrio.com/forum/home

They have classified ads for used equipment and a dedicated base of film and darkroom fanatics who are always looking for used gear. Remember, things like tripods, lights, backgrounds, stands, cutters, laminators, dry mount presses and so on have as much usefulness as ever and many older lenses are still great on digital cameras. I still use view cameras with digital scanning backs, so you might find that there is good value in your used equipment. Don't rush to toss everything to the curb just yet.

j castronovo


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Frederick Yocum
 

Robert,

A quote from Samuel Beckett, often consoles me during these exercises.

“Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.”

regards,
Frederick Yocum

On Mar 2, 2021, at 21:18, Robert S Baldassano <robsbphotog@...> wrote:

I guess the last image of the lion will be my only chance to redeem myself.


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Robert S Baldassano
 

My entry was 501. As a series these exercises have been a humbling experience. I used to think I was pretty good using PPW, at least on the images I created, but when I moved from San Jose CA to Napa in late 2019, my computer was down for about 6 months before I managed to fix it and just the effect of not doing any post processing, it made my familiarity of using PPW a bit rusty. In general I did not spend much time on this image  as it seemed simple. I used 2 color set points one on a high window and one on white water. I then went through the usual steps. I did reference the video and tried to match the color of the building, and that is why my building is pale. I am guilty of having some yellow in my water, but I thought that reflected possible yellow lighting in the fountain. Other images without yellow water I liked were 504,511, 536 and 527. I guess the last image of the lion will be my only chance to redeem myself.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

David Remington
 
Edited

My version is 514
 
 
I aimed for a balance between the warm bronze colored hotel and the deep blue after sunset sky. I wanted a feeling that was imposing but exciting, electric. A glossy metallic look (I mostly worked on this on a glossy screen and that is how I pictured it). It is dark in image and most of the lighting is artificial. I aimed to keep that feel. This is a revision that I made post Beach at Sunset feedback. i.e. warmer.
 
I started with the DNG file in Camera RAW and finished in Photoshop. I worked on recovering detail in the fountain and balancing blue and gold. I added a duplicate Layer with some high radius sharpening and blended it into the fountain, the water and a bit in the hotel. The sky was too saturated and cyan as exported from Camera RAW. I went back to see if a cooler white point would produce a better sky but I did not like that result so I adjusted the sky in the version I had. Reduced saturation, darkened, and shifted the hue toward a more magenta blue.

There are always afterthoughts, but one thing I would change is adding more definition to the hotel name!
 
I like several of the other versions. 503, 528, and 536 and parts of others.


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Christophe Potworowski
 

Mine is 535. I’ve never been to Las Vegas, or their urinals, but I get the point: too yellow. I had separated the sky and the foreground as separate work areas through masks, and I even selected the fountain but, alas, only for clarity and not for colour cast.

Christophe


On Mar 1, 2021, at 4:08 AM, Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis@...> wrote:

I’ve posted the results of the Bellagio exercise, the fifth in a series of 11 case studies.
 
Reviewing: This image was part of the MIT study. We are not given guidance as to what is wanted.
 
We have 35 entries. Most people also submitted a list of their steps, thanks very much. I haven’t read these, because I’d rather get a sense of who was successful and who wasn’t before investigating why.
 
The files don’t have people’s names on them, and were random-generator numbered from #501 to #535. As with past studies, we also have a “par” version, #536. To get it, I chose five that I thought were among the best entrants, and averaged them, each one weighted 20%. This often creates a version that is superior to most if not all of its parents.
 
Normally I don't comment on results for two days after they're posted. Meanwhile, if you’d like to know how your own version stacked up, download the par version and compare the two directly. Do you think you got the same kind of quality? If not, I hope you’ll find further discussion useful.
 
The Folder is in the group's Photos section, Case Study 2021: Bellagio at Night, 
 
I also have zipped all 36 entries and uploaded a 68 mb file to our Files section,
Search for 030121_Bellagio_entries.zip
If you are going to study these versions I strongly encourage you to download these files. Many of these entrants vary only in a minor way and it is hard to see the impact of a change without toggling back and forth between them.
 
I look forward to your comments.
 
Dan Margulis
 
P.S. Our next case study will be announced today, look for a separate post.


Re: Retired need to sell off some kit

Edward Bateman
 

There is a renewed interest in chemical photography with the younger generation. You might see if the photo department at your nearest university would be willing to post your items on their bulletin board. (But probably harder these days with many students being mainly online). I know that I have students who try to set up darkrooms... but they don't have much money. But they can be hungry for equipment.

-Edward Bateman



Quoting Robert Wheeler <bwheeler350@comcast.net>:

This issue came up when a person wanted to donate darkroom equipment, printing papers, and chemicals to our local camera club (Vancouver, WA). The club does not have a physical presence and would need to dispose of the stuff and keep the cash. A camera store in Portland, OR, that sells used equipment stopped accepting darkroom equipment more than 10 years ago. The Portland Arts program has a community darkroom, but is shut down for the pandemic and not accepting donations. Another community darkroom also was unable to accept anything due to pandemic shut down. Another used camera equipment store still accepts selected darkroom equipment on consignment, and some supplies as donation, but they generally don't buy such stuff to resell. Could not find a high school, community college, or local college willing to even accept donated equipment. Such stuff shows up on Craigslist from time to time, but success rate for actually making a sale is not clear. We were not able to accept the donation, so the person is going to try selling online a bit at a time. Better opportunities may exist in other communities or other countries.Hope you are able to use this information, dismal though it may be.
Robert Wheeler



Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Harvey Nagai
 

Welp.

Excerpts of my notes which I sent to Dan:

    "I'm sure someone will think I made the world's most spectacular urinal"

    "I watched the Andrea Bocelli yootoob, and it changed my mind a little about
    plain old white fountains"

So I sent Dan two versions, yellow and white, and asked that he pick one for my entry.

Evidently I like urinals more than Dan.

Hence 526.

While I was watching that yootoob, I was thinking that I had seen the colors before.  They were
what I got from completely neutralizing the sprays for blending down too-colorful verions.
Not very realistic, they should be tainted by colored illumination from elsewhere, but the colors
of the hotel and lake were close to what could be seen at times in the video.

I put a lot of thought into the colors of my urinal and absolutely none into the white fountains,
but if they were good enough for that spectacular Bocelli performance, and Dan thought them better,
who am I to argue?


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Paco
 

Hi! Mine is 528.

williamtheis is correct in saying that I painted the colors in the fountain but is not correct if the assumption is that the colors were not there to start with. The colors in the water come from what's behind the fountain. The way I found them is by making a variant where I pushed the H/S to 100%. Then I painted them in. The explanation follows.

Processed in C1 where tried to pull the most detail out of the water and shadows but keeping things on the flat side to work on those further in PS.

 

Through a mask from the R channel, worked overall on the sky and then used that same mask but inverted to work on the overall colors in façade of the hotel. Flattened.

 

On 2 Dodge and Burn layers, enhanced the different densities in the water spray dodging highlights and burning the grey in between. In one of them only enhanced the topmost spray and droplets and the thin highlights then I could control those separately from the other D/B layer. Proceeded to make the letters in the name more readable by painting on them with a yellowish black sampled in the area.

 

With curves and through same masks from the R channel, darkened the sky colors and highlights in Color and Normal modes. On an inverted copy of those masks accentuated the colors in the façade in a Y to M gradation which was manually applied.

 

From the Mantillas exercise I learned that making extreme color and contrast versions a lot of that excess can be applied to another image and, by blending, a better result could be achieved. Personally I have come up with the workflow that on the extreme versions (be they made with a pixel layer of correction layer) I can mask completely to K and then slowly and with a low Flow and a soft Brush, paint those into other layers. If I make a mistake just paint back with W.

 

That's how I found all those colors in the fountain. If I hadn't pushed the Saturation to the extremes I would have missed them completely. So on that H/S layer I masked with B and with W painted in the colors where I wanted them and at different intensities.

 

The lightness and color of the foreground water also had to change and that was done on separate masked H/S and Curves layers.

 

Flattened, duplicated and to that applied sharpening which blended at 50%

 

If you use are planning on using C1 as your RAW processor Dan came up with a solution to it opening only as a DNG file. Make a new document with the exact same dimensions and resolution, and to it paste a copy of the JPEG made with the results of the C1 processing.

 

All the best!

 

Paco


Re: Bellagio at Night: Results #case-study-results

Gerald Bakker
 

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 10:19 PM, Edward Bateman wrote:
Always something to lear, re-learn and puzzle over on these. Doing well always feels like an accomplishment. And as someone who teaches and gives critiques, it is a rare treat to get a meaningful critique from a master.
Now that I revisit some of the entries, I realize what made this exercise so difficult. The two important parts of the image (fountain and hotel) require a completely opposite strategy.

  • For the fountain, fine detail is absolutely essential. The more definition of water spray, the better, up to the point where individual drops become visible. Color doesn't matter.
  • The hotel however needs a shiny appearance. No fine detail at all, but rich color is required to give it a glamorous Las Vegas look. 
The entry that really stands out for me, for exactly the above reasons, is #530.
I don't think the handling of the sky is that important.
--
Gerald Bakker
https://geraldbakker.nl

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