Date   

Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Diana Kassir
 

In response to Jim's comment, Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene.....

I too, have the same differences in my eyes (which I just noticed this summer in my right (older?) and left eyes. I've felt very concerned about it. but haven't had the chance 
(nor insurance coverage) to follow up.

Any similar experiences appreciated!

BEST!
Diana Kassir


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Frederick Yocum <frederick@...> wrote:


As important as this is, I find myself surprised again and again when I return to a color corrected image and realize I have left a major color shift or tonal shift insufficiently addressed. My eyes over exaggerated the effect I was having on the image, I need to go back and do more.

That’s right, because perception adjusts to the circumstances. That’s why at present I am not conscious of seeing any better overall than pre-surgery—provided I keep both eyes open. I’m actually being confronted with a yellow cast, but my visual system ignores it: that’s chromatic adaptation for you.

When looking at something colorful on the screen the eyes also adjust to what they are seeing. Look at a very yellow picture long enough and it won’t seem so yellow any more. Then, as you say, when you look at the same image the next day it seems lurid. This is why color-by-the-numbers is necessary, and why people who rely on “calibrated” monitors are so often disappointed.

Dan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

smekleur
 

Op 6 nov. 2020 om 19:17 heeft Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> het volgende geschreven:

3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.
The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not.
Consider this:

https://www.xrite.com/categories/visual-assessment-tools/fm-100-hue-test
If two colors has become alike to this person’s eyes, you will know.
There’s also an online version. Using this would include the monitor. :-)

Greetz, Stefan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Randy Wright
 

I would suggest correcting a set of images with each eye, to see if there was some influence on your decision making process.

Randy Wright


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Dan Margulis
 



On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:08 PM, Robert Wheeler <bwheeler350@...> wrote:

As a supplement to the online color testing, it might be useful for future cases to use actual images to quantify the differences between your two eyes (before they both have new lenses). Consider taking a few images that appear especially different to  your two eyes. For each, duplicate the image into side by side identical versions that you can switch on or off at will. Look at the left version with your left eye. Look at the right side version with your right side eye.

This test is easier said than done, I’m here to tell you. But I’m quite a ways through it. I assume I would have realized by Monday that this exercise was necessary, but maybe it would have been so obvious that I would have overlooked it, so many thanks for the suggestion.

Make adjustments to the version seen with your old lens eye until it looks the same to you through your old lens eye as the other un-adjusted image does when seen through your new lens eye. Then measure the LAB values for critical points in each version and record the values and differences, maybe averaged across the small test set.

That’s more work than it’s worth IMHO, because the findings would apply to me only. I’m more interested in the general principle of whether differing visual capabilities can have a significant impact on what is preferred in real images.

Possibly not as interesting as difference in preference, but might be useful to know the magnitude of the differences in your case as a baseline for comparison with others who might be willing to do the same exercise while waiting between lens replacements.

The magnitude would be different if I had waited six more months. Also, the majority of those having this surgery have the second eye in much worse condition than mine.

So the actual numbers wouldn’t be significant—except to me. And I would have to say I was surprised by how big they were, assuming that my current correction curve holds up.

Again, what I was trying to do was construct a set of curves that would show me, looking at the image with my new eye only, something that matched my recollection of what the original looked like when viewed with the old eye.

Applying my curve to a grayscale stepwedge, I find that 62L 0a 0b is perceived by the old eye (in the judgment of the new one) as 56L (2)a 15b. A pure white (100 L 0a 0b) is perceived as 91L 3a 17b. These are considerably bigger differences than I expected.

Thanks muchly for the suggestion of this exercise.

Dan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Jim Bean
 

hello colortheory,

 

Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.”

 

I have a similar setup as I replaced a single lens in my left eye and specified a ‘non-aged’ lens replacement.  two huge changes with that setup…1) new visual acuity (I sometimes make night-time aerial images of sporting events/marching bands/etc) is beyond belief… amazing detail at extended distances (day or night)   2) truly beautiful colors with that new (non-aged) replacement lens.

 

As my friend, Dan, stated, blues are great (although I would have expected him to use his classic, less yellow or more blue than yellow).  From the early 70s through today, I have printed my own color work including the color corrections. I now enjoy two options, ‘Pretty’ with the left eye and +15 or more units of yellow from my right eye. It does have advantages…  however, up to a certain point, I live or die with the info palette to immediately ‘get me into the ballpark’. I do not remember at any age being as impressed with the newer lens implant… of course my memory (except for my fishing exploits) at 71 may be a bit imprecise. Many of my fellow pros color correct by utilizing only their ‘color corrected’ monitors and other ‘profiled’ equipment. Their studio lighting is ‘nailed down’, most other projects are utilizing our abundant west texas sunlight… Their work is nice and consistent…outside of those venues, they defer to a lab to help them … their work from the lab is nice and consistent. However, if they were to “commence the hostilities” during one of Dan’s ‘beat downs’… they (as myself) would realize their work would not be among those selected for the final blending moves.

 

short note regarding customers not liking the color or not seeing similar colors: I do not know the percentage of eye surgeries or related events that might impact a customer’s eyesight.. I will state that the number of my mature customers

have no small amount of visual issues… and to assume comparison of the average customer to average eyesight might be a stretch.

 

With the exception of obvious skin variations (disorders), textures, age, during my 50+ years as a self-employed pro photographer, I do not recall a single customer that shared with me any real issues with the color of whatever prints we delivered.

My office has two large 60”x 60” windows and several overhead fluorescent fixtures (approx 52-5800kelvin)… currently ‘color correcting’ under generic white LED lamps.

 

If I were to guess/assume why there are not at least a few issues:

My highlights are most always clean,. not yellow, not pink/red.. possibly not white.. but ‘clean/neutral’ and consistent with the image content.  get the hightlight correct and even though there are other tone values within our images, you are almost certain to have a useable image.  Unfortunately for me, ‘useable’ doesn’t work.. I discard prints that would be considered perfect by the majority of other professionals.  an aside: one of the primary reasons that I elected to handle 100% of my color processing/printing services was due to the poor quality of the prints that generated by a local ‘pro’ lab.. I returned an 8x10 to the lab that was beyond yellow.. the plant manager’s only comment was: Did you show it to the customer?

 

I do not recall Dan’s term for ‘unbelievable’ colors. If you don’t have obvious issues, green skin or whatever, I do not believe that you would encounter the average consumer that would not be happy with the print. 

 

Certainly we all have a grasp regarding the viewing environment, mixed light sources, etc…  many, many people wear tinted contacts/glasses. I primarily print to Epson Premium luster and apply 1-2 coats of LacquerMat/satina… the reflective index and colors produced by those pigmented ink sets will never appear the same as the Fuji Crystal prints/or other media…

 

in closing, I can only suggest that it is the professional imaging industry’s responsibility to get it right as the majority of consumers are far more interesting in the image content than any other aspect. today’s trends are nothing more than

yesterday’s ‘happy colors’ that are now on steroids…  current examples can easily be viewed on most any realtor’s website.

 

regards and good times,

 

Jim Bean,

Scenic San Angelo, West Texas


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Thomas Hurd,MD
 

Dan,

I just returned from the ophthalmologist. I have a cataract in each eye, but he did not yet recommend surgery.

I was complaining that I might not be seeing well enough on my computer correcting images, but now I found
1) I actually have a blue streak across my laptop screen that is obviously not on either of my desktop dual monitors.
2)  my doctor told me that because we get more yellow in our vision with cataracts that he believes that is why multiple artists have gone through “blue periods”
3) also I probably need to develop my skill set anyway

My story is to amplify yours. Many of your readers, students, and colorists around the world will be going through this same experience. It is very common in USA to undergo sequential cataract surgery in 60s and beyond. I’m not sure how common it is in other countries. 

None the less you will be starting a project that can be continued by, I’m sure, many volunteers.

The standardized tests are the most, well, standardized. So your information on them
will be the most reproducible.

About 18 months ago I took a couple of those tests to arrange colors in order. It frustrates me because I had to repeat the test twice to get an exact match in every single row. I found it interesting that I could learn the subtle differences with practice and then get perfect scores. I should retake them now to see if training held as well over time.

The history of medicine has many examples of both patients and doctors doing individual experiments that greatly added to the body of knowledge at the time. The more humorous are the earliest anesthetist sharing volatile liquids around the dinner table, which eventually resulted in the discovery of chloroform. More serious were patients about to be enucleated who offered to stare straight at the sun for hours to characterize the damage on their retinas.

I wonder if besides color perception, either from cataracts or genetics, if there are physiologic reasons that colorists and clients are better at assessing images of different sorts: landscapes, indoors, low light, animals, different but specific artificial lighting, etc. it could also be familiarity and practice, hopefully. 

Tom Hurd

On Nov 6, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Rick Gordon <lists@...> wrote:

 1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to 
...

--------------------
On November 6, 2020 at 11:37:54 AM [-0800], Dan Margulis Via Groups.io wrote in an email entitled "[colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity":
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

…
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

James Gray
 

Dan,  Good luck with your cataract surgery.  Over 15 years ago I had cataract surgery.  I noticed a huge difference between the two eyes during the couple of weeks between the surgeries.  I was told that my cataracts were somewhat unusual which was related to an issue with my calcium metabolism.  I was also experiencing a certain amount of monocular double vision.  I did not attempt the type of test you are planning but did notice changes in preferences.  Rather than a change in the way blues looked I noticed a huge change in how yellows looked.  Viewed through my pre-surgery lens, yellows had a very mustardy look.  With the implant, yellows were more brilliant and saturated.  In addition, blacks were blacker, whites were whiter and contrast was way better.  I am quite sure that I prefer images with bright yellow flowers much more than I did before the surgery.  I will very interested to find out what your tests show.

James Gray

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:17 AM Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan












Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

sj_90000@...
 

Hi Dan,

Yeah, seeing the color differences is an interesting thing to observe. I had my cataracts removed a few years ago. But all too soon, after both eyes are done, you'll find it's difficult remembering that sepia tint that used to cloud your vision - I'm sure it's adaption at work. Anyway I'm sure you'll appreciate the sunrises and sunsets a lot more. The subtle colors between blues and reds are a lot more vivid. I guess it's because they're more closely balanced since there's no longer a "yellow" filter hindering the full effect of the blue. While doing some researching on cataracts I came across this very informative article. Hope you find it useful/interesting. Have fun with your new BLUES!

https://web.archive.org/web/20181230070529/http://vsri.ucdavis.edu/research/psychophysics

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Margulis via groups.io
Date: Friday, November 06, 2020 01:17 PM
To: colortheory@groups.io
Subject: [colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Rick Gordon
 

1) Since presumably, the apparent differences would be most noticeable when immediately shifting between eyes, it would be good to know how your new preferences hold over time, once you've had both surgeries and some time to accustom yourself to the new baseline. I'd suggest making a third pass-through some time after having fully adjusted to the changes, and having responded to your entire visual perception having been altered, not just in relation to images, but everything that you see.

2) Are there shifts in your perception of sharpness? Do you find yourself wanting to sharpen a bit less as a result of increase contrast? What about your perception of the impact of local contrast maneuvers?

Rick Gordon

--------------------
On November 6, 2020 at 11:37:54 AM [-0800], Dan Margulis Via Groups.io wrote in an email entitled "[colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity":
In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

…
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Frederick Yocum
 

Dan

I look forward to the results and don’t have any suggestions for further tests. I have on occasions noticed a color shift between my eyes hopefully subtle enough but it doesn’t make a difference.

As important as this is, I find myself surprised again and again when I return to a color corrected image and realize I have left a major color shift or tonal shift insufficiently addressed. My eyes over exaggerated the effect I was having on the image, I need to go back and do more.

regards,
Frederick Yocum
mobile 717.341.2226
Skype Frederick
1152 Main Street
Akron, PA 17501

On Nov 6, 2020, at 13:17, Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan











Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

Robert Wheeler
 

As a supplement to the online color testing, it might be useful for future cases to use actual images to quantify the differences between your two eyes (before they both have new lenses). Consider taking a few images that appear especially different to  your two eyes. For each, duplicate the image into side by side identical versions that you can switch on or off at will. Look at the left version with your left eye. Look at the right side version with your right side eye. Make adjustments to the version seen with your old lens eye until it looks the same to you through your old lens eye as the other un-adjusted image does when seen through your new lens eye. Then measure the LAB values for critical points in each version and record the values and differences, maybe averaged across the small test set.

Possibly not as interesting as difference in preference, but might be useful to know the magnitude of the differences in your case as a baseline for comparison with others who might be willing to do the same exercise while waiting between lens replacements. Different cataracts may have different impacts on color transmission depending on density. If others replicate your preferences exercise, they could also test their quantitative differences in perception (via subjective equalization adjustments). Could be interesting to see whether their preference differences are affected by the amount of difference between the eyes, even if the direction of differences may be the same as yours.


A unique color-testing opportunity

Dan Margulis
 

In the next week I have a never-to-be-repeated opportunity to do some testing about color preferences. Since after next week the testing won’t be possible, I throw it open for suggestions.

The question of why a client or observer does not like our work on a certain image is of course a critical one for all of us. Often a laypersoncan’t offer a meaningful explanation for disliking it. This leaves three major possibilities:

1) Our work sucks;
2) This person has different tastes and preferences;
3) This person’s visual system doesn’t see the same thing we do.

The first two theories are easy enough to test, but the third is not. It is well known that older people lose perception in the yellow-green range; this is proven by results of the Farnsworth-Munsell hue test, which I have administered thousands of times, including to myself. However, just because a person shows up with defective vision doesn’t mean he would have different color preferences than ours—even if he is color-blind. We can’t test it, because we have nothing to compare to; nobody has ever been color-blind and normally-sighted in the same lifetime. And it is regrettably impossible to put the person in a time machine to find out what he would think of the image if he were thirty years younger.

Well, for the moment I can do something almost as good. Last month I had a regular vision check, which revealed I was developing cataracts in both eyes. I decided there was no time like a pandemic to get rid of them. The first operation was Monday, the second is scheduled for a week from Monday, Covid and domestic violence permitting.

The first operation was successful although the eye is still improving. Meanwhile, unlike most people who’ve had this surgery, my other eye is in good shape and still works well with the new one, no need to walk around with half a pair of glasses.

Hence the opportunity. Right now I have two good eyes but the older one sees a warmer and less high-contrast scene. The newer one can perceive much brighter blues and whiter whites. In short, it’s like the difference between a young person’s vision and that of a much older one. And I see perfectly well with either eye covered.

That situation will last from Monday (which is when the surgeon says my new eye is guaranteed stable) to the following Monday, which is the second surgery. So that’s when I’m going to do some testing.

Current plan? This weekend I’m going to set aside the most interesting variations from our recent series of eleven case studies. Also, I have maybe a hundred sets of similar multi-version exercises from ACT classes. Each day, I’m going to review a stack of them with one eye, make notes of my preferences, and then a stack of different images with the other eye, and a third set with both eyes open.

At least two days later (when I have presumably forgotten my preferences) I’ll reverse the stacks and record new preferences and comments with one of the eyes that was not used on the first pass.

I don’t personally own a full Farnsworth-Munsell test but there are various versions of it online. I’ll take them with each eye and also with both open at once, before and after whatever other tests I come up with. Finally, I’d hope to be able to say somewhat definitively what the impact is on personal preference when one person has a cleaner and brighter view of the scene than another does.

This reminds me of when, many years ago, I put together a jury of a dozen color-blind men and tested them with a bunch of images to see what they could and could not distinguish. It was very useful, and the results are still in both editions of Canyon Conundrum, but I have always regretted some of the questions that I didn’t think about asking at the time—too late now.

As I don’t want that to happen again, I ask the group for suggestions as to any other tests I might perform, during the one week that I’ll have.

Dan


List Rules and Objectives

Dan Margulis
 

Applied Color Theory list
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(This document is posted monthly)


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ANONYMOUS POSTS PROHIBITED
Our tradition is that all messages to this group must be signed with the member's full name. First names only or "handles" are not acceptable, nor is quoting an anonymous third party. We request that you configure groups.io to include your full name automatically as the sender of any message. That will insure that each post will have your name at the top and make it unnecessary for you to sign the post. If you don’t do this, you risk having your posts rejected or having your moderation status changed if you forget to add your signature.

To implement this, find whatever your current name is in the upper right of the groups.io site, click/hold and choose your Account settings. Then, on the left side, click Identity. On the resulting screen choose Account Profile: Edit. On the next screen change Display Name to your own full name, followed by Update Account Profile.

Alternatively, if you are using other groups.io groups, you can create a signature line that will apply to everything you post.

There are certain valid reasons why a list member might wish to avoid signing his name. For example, the late Ralph Adam Fine was an appeals court judge. He had to be exceedingly cautious about anything he posted, therefore he normally went through me. Others have been granted anonymity because what they posted reflected badly on a boss or a client. 

In such cases, please forward the message to me and I will post it if appropriate with a note of explanation and I will, if appropriate, post it the name deleted. If a person has been granted anonymity, I always use “he” on second reference, regardless of the poster’s actual gender. Persons who have been granted anonymity will not be permitted to attack other list members by name. 

DEADLINE: THE END OF YAHOOGROUPS
Yahoogroups, which hosted us between 1999 and 2019, will cease to exist on 15 December 2020. All group information has theoretically been copied to our current host, groups.io, so I don’t think there’s any reason for a group member to need to access yahoogroups. Still, to be on the safe side, I call attention to the deadline.

VOLUNTARY DONATIONS
After a group discussion last month, I will shortly be announcing a structure where those interested can make voluntary donations to defray the group’s expenses, which I am currently paying. I have done the preliminary setup and will be doing some further testing.

GROUPS.IO FEATURES
*A member has the ability to “mute” a thread or hashtag so that additions to it will no longer be received. Also, a member who uses Digest mode or does not normally receive e-mails can override the setting and receive a certain thread or hashtag.
*Attachments of images etc. within posts are now allowed.
*Although the archive of messages from yahoogroups has been transferred, the numbering system is no longer the same. Therefore, searching for a message based on a number found in another yahoogroups message won’t work. Search for an appropriate text stream, if there is one, instead.
*A flexible suite of moderation tools enables us to allow many messages to get to the list immediately, without moderator intervention.
*Hashtags are supported although we haven’t done anything to implement them.
*We are an open group. The general public can read our messages, but cannot access our files or photos. 
*Due to it becoming overcrowded, I have reorganized the Files section. All content from 2015 and previous is now in a subfolder. Furthermore, the many Actions that were uploaded in that timeframe have been put in their own sub-subfolder.


PLEASE SNIP YOUR QUOTES
Many e-mail programs by default append a complete copy of the message being replied to. Unless that message is a short one, the practice is inappropriate for our group. It becomes a particular problem when the appended message itself appends another. Please be sure that the length of any message being appended is appropriate compared to your own original content.

Particularly, if you’re replying to a post that includes an image or other attachment, make sure it doesn’t get repeated in yours. We get charged by the space we use, and one image may take up the space of a thousand text messages.

CROSS-POSTINGS TO OTHER GROUPS
It is a breach of etiquette for list members to post the same question to multiple on-line groups simultaneously. People who answer questions on these lists are often experts in the field who are donating generous amounts of their time to assisting those who need guidance. Nobody wants to waste time responding to a question that's already been satisfactorily answered elsewhere.

Instead, please post the question here or to whatever other group you think is most likely to be helpful. If you haven't gotten an answer you can live with in, say, 48 hours, by all means try a different list. In such a case, it's only courteous to say something like "I have tried the XXX list, and got no reply" or "I asked this on the YYY list, and was told ZZZ, I'm not sure I accept this, would anyone here care to comment?" 

POSTING OF IMAGES and FILES
If you need to refer us to an image, and do not wish to link to some other site, please put it (JPEG only, can be either RGB or CMYK) into the Photos section of the group, setting up a folder if need be.

If you need to post a PDF, an action, or any other type of file that is not an image, use the Files section. Unlike yahoogroups, groups.io will not permit you to post a JPEG or anything else that it identifies as an image there. In the event that you have to post some form of image in the Files section, you’ll need to zip it first.

If you only have one or two images to post, and they don’t belong in a specific folder, please put them into the Miscellaneous folder within the Photos section.

Some folders set up by the moderators are locked, i.e. you can look at, download, and comment on pictures, but not add or delete any. Other folders are open and anyone can post pictures to them.

The direct link to our Photos section is
The direct link to our Files section is

AN INTERNATIONAL GROUP
English is not the first language for many subscribers. If you are using acronyms, please be sure that everyone understands what they mean. Also, the preferred format for dates is 5 March; if you write 3/5/12 this means March 5 in the United States, but it means May 3 in most of the rest of the world.

ADVERTISING and COMMERCIAL POSTS
Nobody wants this to become an advertising list, but in practice it is difficult to draw a fine line between a comment and a product plug. Members are requested to use restraint and to ask themselves whether what they are posting is something that a significant number of readers would be interested in. That said, brief plugs are permitted. Similarly, new product announcements are permitted, but the preferred form is to announce briefly and indicate to the list members where further information is available.

Repeated commercial posts are prohibited. Also, there will be little to no tolerance for commercial posts from persons who are not otherwise participating in the list. This includes "public service announcements" or posts promoting private websites.

Unnecessarily lengthy signature blocks that advertise services are discouraged.

CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
Members are entitled to know if posters have commercial affiliations that might affect their views as to the products and topics they post about. If you have such an affiliation, you are expected to disclose it. This doesn't mean in every post, but often enough so that the readers will be in no doubt as to what your biases might be. For the purpose of this list, if you're writing about a certain product, and you've accepted more than $300 from that company within the last five years, that's something that should be disclosed. Similarly, if you have received freebies worth more than $300 during that time, it should be disclosed.

Furthermore, if you in the last five years have been a developer of or otherwise represented a certain product, and you are writing about a product that might reasonably said to compete with it, you are expected to disclose this.

These rules are not intended to stop you from posting on whatever you like, nor are they intended to force you to give any details at all about the payment. If your signature or company identification (e.g. an adobe.com address) makes your affiliation obvious, there's no need for anything more. Otherwise, a "DISCLOSURE: I have received payments/freebies from this company in the recent past" will suffice.

DIGEST MODE
Members who do not want a high volume of single messages may sign up for this list in digest mode. groups.io offers three choices:
1) Full-featured: you get a full copy of all messages sent, including links and attachments, once a day or after 12 new messages have been posted, whichever comes first.
2) Plain digest: same as above, no links or attachments.
3) Daily summary: once a day, shows topics being discussed only, no text.

You are not permitted to reply directly to a Digest file, because groups.io doesn’t want you to append the whole digest to your reply. Your own e-mail client may seem to allow it, but your attempt will be directed to a dead mailbox at groups.io. Instead, within the Digest, click Reply below the specific message that you wish to reply to.

MODERATION AND INAPPROPRIATE POSTS
This list is moderated, currently by five persons. Traditionally, all posts had to be approved by one of us (Gerald Bakker, Darren Bernaerdt, Sterling Ledet, Dan Margulis, Stephen Marsh), before they were distributed to the group.  With groups.io we implemented a more liberal policy: the first post from any member requires moderator approval (otherwise we might be subjected to spam) but once one message has been approved the user may post directly to the list without our intervention, unless we later decide otherwise.

Certain users will remain or become subject to moderation of each post due to having crossed the line on one of the items listed below. Additionally, certain threads will be locked or become subject to moderation if they threaten to get out of control.

If you are subject to moderation we will reject the following types of message without prior warning. If you are not currently subject to moderation, posting one of these is a good way to change that status. NOTE: If we reject a post, we send a message to the sender indicating why. If your post hasn't appeared, and you haven't gotten a rejection message (check your spam folder!), probably the message got lost in cyberspace.

1) Spam; press releases, product announcements or "classified advertising" from people who haven't participated in the list in at least six months or who are recent signups; form letters; posts from people who don't otherwise participate in the list referring us to private websites; and posts from anyone referring us to links without a reasonably full explanation of what is to be found there.

2) Messages in which a full name does not appear.

3) Messages that do not have an informative title, e.g. "No Subject" or "Digest #1234"

4) Messages responding to messages that are extremely dated or that the rest of the list has not seen at all. Typically, this occurs when Party B replies to Party A offline, and Party A responds to the list.

5) Messages that would subject the group to an unreasonable amount of quoted material, such as reposting lengthy, unedited material from other sources, the attachment of a complete message which itself attached additional messages, or simply appending an entire lengthy message rather than snipping the specific material that is of interest.

6) Technical questions that the moderator is aware are simultaneously crossposted to other group(s). The moderator will generally not approve other types of simultaneous crossposts but may use discretion in exceptional cases.

7) Messages that contain a copyright notice or may present legal problems if posted to the group. 

8) Messages that may be hoaxes.

9) Messages containing attempts at ethnic or sexual humor, whether or not there is other relevant content.

10) Other attempts at humor that the moderator doesn't think are funny and that contain no content relevant to an existing thread.

11) Messages that are derisive or dismissive of another member’s skills in photography or color correction. Constructive criticism is welcome but must be framed in a respectful fashion, even if the person being criticized is a beginner.

12) "Repeats" of recent posts hoping to get responses that the first ones did not.

13) Messages from persons who have been list members for less than six months or who have not posted to the list in the past six months, and which in the judgment of the moderator show a lack of understanding of what the list is about or which duplicate something that has been covered recently. Examples: questions like "how do I calibrate my monitor?"; messages of introduction to the list; questions on topics in which the list does not specialize, and questions on a topic about which a thread has just ended.

14) Messages that do not respond to an existing thread and have nothing to do with color or the purposes of this group, e.g. corrections of people's grammar, needless quibbling over terminology or political correctness, statements in support of some political cause, attempts to unsubscribe, virus warnings, or change of address notifications.

15) Today's web etiquette countenances certain acronyms (e.g. POS, FUBAR, SOL, BFD) where an off-color word is implied. As long as these words are not spelled out there is no objection. In the interest of decorum, however, we ask members to refrain from undisguised use of locutions found on the commonly available "Seven Filthy Words" list.

MODERATION AND CENSORSHIP
We do not wish to censor posts based on their content or to cause people to pull their punches in what they write. We are willing to have reasonably brief threads on almost any color-related topic. Intervention by a moderator to restrict discussion is rare. It will become even rarer in groups.io, since now members have the option of muting a thread that doesn’t interest them. However, it may take place under the following circumstances.

1. If in the judgment of the moderators, a thread is going on too long, we will post publicly to the list and to all participants a request to bring it to a close. Our criteria in doing this may include: limited interest of the thread to the vast majority of the group; repetition of the same points over and over; participation only by a few members; or that there was a closely similar recent thread. Unless the list is being deluged, the moderators try to consult with one another before locking a thread. Ordinarily we give the list 24 hours notice that a thread will be ending so that those interested may post their final thoughts on the subject. In the interim, all posts to the thread will require moderator approval. Afterward, the thread will be locked so that no further posts can be accepted. 

2. Occasionally a thread has become so acid that a moderator posts a warning about civility, or about bringing in irrelevancies such as discussion of political events. In such cases the thread continues, but all additions to the thread will require moderator approval, and the list is on notice that offending posts are subject to rejection at the discretion of the moderators.

3. We reserve the right to limit the sheer volume of posting allowed by any list member or by any interest group that is posting substantially the same type of material.

ARCHIVING
This group has existed since 2/99, but in late 12/00 it shifted servers to egroups, later yahoogroups. In 11/19, it moved to groups,io. All yahoogroups messages, files, and photos are accessible at colortheory.groups.io. Note, however, that the yahoogroups message numbering scheme did not carry over to groups.io. Therefore, any archived message that refers to a different one by number will not link to the correct message. Search by text instead.

From time to time, we have post edited full threads, at
There are currently around 300 such threads available. The most recent update was August, 2013. 

THE MODERNCOLORWORKFLOW SITE
My book Modern Photoshop Color Workflow was released in March, 2013. In conjunction with it, we opened http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com, which has a variety of materials that might supplement the discussions of this list.

RE-USE OF POSTED MATERIAL
In today's information age, the assumption must be that comments posted to groups like this one are for public consumption, and may be freely quoted by others without further permission. Images referred to in group messages, whether posted to this group's photo section or posted on the web sites of others, are a different story. Such images are assumed to be copyrighted material, and no reuse is permissible without the consent of the owner.

AUTO-REPLIES
If you auto-reply to e-mail (typically to inform people that you are on vacation), be sure that the list is excluded. Among other ways, you can do this by setting your auto-reply to ignore either messages containing [colortheory] in the title, or "Precedence: bulk" in the header. If you auto-reply more than once to list messages, your posting privileges will be suspended so that moderators will not have to delete each auto-reply manually. If you subsequently wish to post to the list and receive an automated reply that you are not permitted to post, please contact a moderator.

QUESTIONS AS TO APPROPRIATENESS
If you have doubts as to the propriety of posting something, please feel free to contact me or another moderator directly.

UNSUBSCRIBING and POSTING DIFFICULTIES
Every list message contains an Unsubscribe link at the bottom. If you have any difficulty in either unsubscribing or in posting to the group, consider the possibility that you are no longer posting or receiving under the exact address with which you subscribed. 

If you attempt to post and receive a message stating that, although you are a member, you are not permitted to post, it means that a moderator has manually disallowed your posting privileges. We do this to members who have sent spam (often the result of a virus) or who have set their mailbox to auto-reply to the group explaining that they are out of the office. If you get this message and wish your rights restored, contact a moderator offline.

To change your email address, log into Groups.io. Then look for the dropdown in the top right corner of the page, which will be either your name or email address. Click that and then click Account.

On the edit profile page, you can change your email address. Once you do so, you will receive a new confirmation email. Once you reply to that, you will be all set.

If the email address you wish to change to is already registered with Groups.io, a page will come up explaining the account merge process and verifying that you would like to merge your accounts.


LEDET GRAPHICS TRAINING
This list is sponsored by Ledet Graphics Training, which offers a variety of Internet and graphic arts courses, with company-owned facilities in the Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington, DC areas. For further information, visit www.ledet.com or call 877-819-2665 (+1 770-414-5007 from outside U.S.)


Dan Margulis
Last revised 29 October 2020
Suggestions for revising this document are welcome.


Re: Carnival: what's next?

Thomas Hurd,MD
 

Doug,

Thank you so much for mentioning Daniele’s site on this forum.

It’s been a great place to practice and learn every week!

I look forward to seeing your corrections especially every week since I saw your corrections all summer here with this group. Great job on the waterfall image.

If anyone here hasn’t taken a look at ColorDuels.com, it’s a subscription site mentioned by Doug in this group as well as by Dan a few months ago. It has plenty of information in video format as well as weekly “confrontations” which are similar to the weekly challenges we did here last summer with Dan. One difference is the evaluations are about 30 minute videos every week. There are some other offerings at the site with an ala carte menu of products and services.

I’ve been there for about 8 weeks now, and have learned a lot. It’s also kept me out of trouble at home, giving me something to do in between printer malfunctions.

Tom



On May 24, 2020, at 4:27 PM, k_d@... wrote:

Daniele DiStanio has a website called Color Duels which offers once a week image correction challenge and video feedback for all the entries as well as education and tips. Excellent way of learning. He and Dan are friends.  go to ColorDuels.com to learn more. Home base is Italy.

Doug Schafer


Re: Ed Benguiat, 1927-2020

Tanya Metaksa
 

Thank you, Dan, for a very interesting article on Ed Benguiat. I have owned Ford cars for half a century and never knew all that history.
Tanya Metaksa



On Oct 24, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis@...> wrote:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:32 AM, Dan Margulis wrote:
Ed was not precisely in our field, but his wide-ranging career offers lessons to retouchers, too. I had been preparing a proper obit for this group including graphics, but have discovered that igroups support for images within messages is too limited. So I will put together a PDF and link to it here.

I have now finished a project that took longer than I thought it would. Because it contains a lot of graphics, I can't post is as a group message. I've put my PDF in the files section but here is a direct link to my Ed Benguiat obituary.

Benguiat was the most prolific type designer of the second half of the last century, with over 500 faces, mostly display, to his credit. Most of them are seldom seen today because his great skill was to be able to design to any specification. In the 1970s and 1980s the specification was an exuberant exaggeration of the identifying features of historical faces, coupled with an extremely large x-height. That fashion was all the rage back then; I swear I sometimes thought that at least half of all print advertising was set in either Ed's ITC Souvenir or in ITC Avant Garde, which wasn't his. But today we prefer a more understated, classic look.

I set the text of this obituary in several of his faces but a more lasting impact will be his logo designs, which showed not just a great grasp of letterforms but of color. He was not quite as eminent in that field as the late Paul Rand, but the PDF features a five-part graphic showing a project at which Rand failed and Ed came in to pick up the pieces: the redesign of the logo of the Ford Motor Co. It was a great piece of design work. I hope Ed's work can be an example to us all.

Dan

 


Re: Ed Benguiat, 1927-2020

Kent Sutorius
 

Dan,
Appreciate it. Very nice.
Kent

On 10/24/2020 3:15 PM, Dan Margulis via groups.io wrote:
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:32 AM, Dan Margulis wrote:
Ed was not precisely in our field, but his wide-ranging career offers lessons to retouchers, too. I had been preparing a proper obit for this group including graphics, but have discovered that igroups support for images within messages is too limited. So I will put together a PDF and link to it here.

I have now finished a project that took longer than I thought it would. Because it contains a lot of graphics, I can't post is as a group message. I've put my PDF in the files section but here is a direct link to my Ed Benguiat obituary.

Benguiat was the most prolific type designer of the second half of the last century, with over 500 faces, mostly display, to his credit. Most of them are seldom seen today because his great skill was to be able to design to any specification. In the 1970s and 1980s the specification was an exuberant exaggeration of the identifying features of historical faces, coupled with an extremely large x-height. That fashion was all the rage back then; I swear I sometimes thought that at least half of all print advertising was set in either Ed's ITC Souvenir or in ITC Avant Garde, which wasn't his. But today we prefer a more understated, classic look.

I set the text of this obituary in several of his faces but a more lasting impact will be his logo designs, which showed not just a great grasp of letterforms but of color. He was not quite as eminent in that field as the late Paul Rand, but the PDF features a five-part graphic showing a project at which Rand failed and Ed came in to pick up the pieces: the redesign of the logo of the Ford Motor Co. It was a great piece of design work. I hope Ed's work can be an example to us all.

Dan

 



Re: What Photoshop 2021 means for the PPW panel

Doug Schafer
 

Yes followed your guidance, got files from Adobe, Adobe site did the install (I had to close Ps2021)
Started Ps 2021, checked legacy plugin and PPW ver 4 looks as you see in prev. .jpg (partial panel and can't re-size panel)

I wrote to Adobe and waiting for a reply.

Doug Schafer

PS When I installed Ps2021 it brought over PPW v5 but it did not work (same size problem). I tried the PPW v5  jsx installer but it won't work with newest PsCC 2021. And now PPW v5 gone from legacy plugins list (but no problem as it didn't work anyway.


Re: Ed Benguiat, 1927-2020

Dan Margulis
 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:32 AM, Dan Margulis wrote:
Ed was not precisely in our field, but his wide-ranging career offers lessons to retouchers, too. I had been preparing a proper obit for this group including graphics, but have discovered that igroups support for images within messages is too limited. So I will put together a PDF and link to it here.

I have now finished a project that took longer than I thought it would. Because it contains a lot of graphics, I can't post is as a group message. I've put my PDF in the files section but here is a direct link to my Ed Benguiat obituary.

Benguiat was the most prolific type designer of the second half of the last century, with over 500 faces, mostly display, to his credit. Most of them are seldom seen today because his great skill was to be able to design to any specification. In the 1970s and 1980s the specification was an exuberant exaggeration of the identifying features of historical faces, coupled with an extremely large x-height. That fashion was all the rage back then; I swear I sometimes thought that at least half of all print advertising was set in either Ed's ITC Souvenir or in ITC Avant Garde, which wasn't his. But today we prefer a more understated, classic look.

I set the text of this obituary in several of his faces but a more lasting impact will be his logo designs, which showed not just a great grasp of letterforms but of color. He was not quite as eminent in that field as the late Paul Rand, but the PDF features a five-part graphic showing a project at which Rand failed and Ed came in to pick up the pieces: the redesign of the logo of the Ford Motor Co. It was a great piece of design work. I hope Ed's work can be an example to us all.

Dan

 


Re: What Photoshop 2021 means for the PPW panel

Rick Gordon
 

My PPW5 seems to be fully functioning, at least so far as I've experimented, in CC 2021, on my Mac Pro 4.1->5.1 running Mojave. That was without reinstall, just picking up my old settings.



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RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
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