Re: Monument Valley: Results
This image demonstrates the variety of personal preferences for how much color and contrast should be "forced" into the image! I prefer my own version (828) over just about every other version—I find the "par" version to be the best of the alternatives, but still too colorful, and contrasty! A lot of this is just personal preference. Many of the images posted look a bit too much like HDR renderings... Truthfully, after studying with Dan, I fell into the Lab saturation valley, and it took many years to climb out. Now with this image I may have swung a bit far the other way, but my version just looks more natural to me now, where 10 years ago I probably would serve up something more like 830 !
Re: Monument Valley: Results
I think to find the best colour is the most difficult. In my version – 819 – saturation has been overdone and it all became yellower than many of the others.
Also, I think, as this is in stark sunshine, the shadows would be darker.
If the PAR version was not there, I find #810, #811, #825 and #829 appealing to me.
I think the PAR version is a bit unrealistic, but it IS better than the rest.
If Dan would say something on what is most important in this image, and why – perhaps more than I would appreciate it.
Re: Monument Valley: Results
This exercise is similar to the Cinque Terre image as it may again evoke discussions about "how colorful (or how contrasty) should it be". I myself find the par version too much of both, but this is likely a matter of taste.
I found one of the crucial aspects of the successful versions a good color distinction between the foreground soil (orange) and the background rocks (red). Versions 811, 823 and 829 have this.
Another thing to consider is what to do with the harsh sun/shadow contrast. Should we keep/emphasize it or soften it to bring some detail back in the dark shadows? I prefer the latter, but after all there are not many shadow areas in the image, so the choice could be to keep them very dark and gain a bit of overall contrast.
Like James, I like my own version, but I am not afraid to tell which one it is: 810.
Re: Monument Valley: Results
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I will stick my neck out. I like 812, 824, and 829 the best. I think that 812 is better than the par version. I also like my version. I am not saying what number it is yet.
moderated Case Study: A Toast to Greece
While discussion continues of Monument Valley, we move on to our final four studies. I’ve posted the next, again due Monday. Find it in our Photos section, labeled Case Study: A Toast to Greece.
This shot comes from a first-rate camera dealing with third-rate lighting conditions. No raw capture is available. Frequently people present such an image as a challenge. Can it really be corrected? Generally, I reply that I don't care, because I would discard it rather than work on it.
Sometimes, however, this is impossible. Just as with the Panama 1978 exercise, the picture can be of great value to a family, with no alternative available. Below I will explain why this one is so important, followed by a thumbnail.
*Background: Right now is a difficult time for all of us. In the United States conditions are on the verge of being worse than during the Great Depression, with the exception of the Dust Bowl region of the Midwest, where my late mother grew up. And they are IMHO now worse than conditions in the U.S. during and after the Second World War, though perhaps not the First.
Western Europe was not so lucky during that period. Our many members who hail from that region have all heard stories about the wartime horror from their elders. But as terrible as the situation was in these nations, it was much worse in parts of central Europe, and in the Soviet Union.
Greece suffered as much as any of them. In late 1940 the Italian army invaded and, against all odds, was defeated by the Greeks. This forced the hand of Hitler, who had to commit major forces he needed elsewhere to come to Italy's aid in a place where the local resistance was formidable. The German occupation was exceptionally brutal, causing mass starvation, and the death of perhaps a tenth of the Greek population.
Southern Greece, the Peloponnesus, was hard hit. My wife's grandparents lived in a small village there; they found the need to socially distance themselves from the Gestapo and fled, leaving my late mother-in-law, as the oldest girl, in charge of a family of ten children. She would never speak of that dreadful time until a couple of years before her own death, and I am not about to repeat what she said. I will say that in late 1943, there took place in the nearby village of Kalavryta an atrocity whose scale and barbarity was appalling even by Nazi standards.
Less than a year later, the Germans were gone but were replaced by something just about as bad, if possible: a brutal Communist insurgency and civil war. All civilians who could flee the area tried to do so, including the eight children who had survived the war. Some made it to Brazil but everyone hoped to somehow get into the United States, which was then, as now, very difficult. My mother-in-law's method was to first get across the Atlantic by means of a fictitious marriage to a Canadian. Once in Canada, the family arranged a non-fictitious marriage to a Greek-American living in New England. There being no match.com at the time, the two first met on their wedding day. The marriage was apparently a happy one, with four children.
This family is quite long-lived. The grandparents reached 102 and 98. My mother-in-law passed away five years ago, at 93, as did an older brother. That prompted the part of the family that had remained in Greece to suggest a two-week-long family reunion near the ancestral village, in June 2017. More than 30 people showed up, three generations.
Hopefully our Colosseum exercise prepared you for another night shot like this one. It's from the welcome dinner. At the head table is the first generation, all of them in their nineties, all of them still alive today. So let's raise a glass to those who survived impossible adversity 60+ years ago, and to their descendants.
*You can use whatever methods you like to improve the picture, including unsharp mask.
*Please keep clear records of what you did for discussion. List members find these very valuable.
*In the Photos section, Case Study: A Toast to Greece, I have uploaded the original JPEG. No raw capture is available.
*The designated size of this exercise is the original, 2647 x 1800 pixels. Do not crop, rotate, or alter the sizing, and don't delete any objects, because any of these things will make it impossible to use your version as part of a par assembly.
*Your final file is to be sRGB with a proper tag. If you work in a different RGB you must Edit: Convert to Profile>sRGB before submitting the file.
*When finished, save in JPEG form, quality level 9. E-mail it to me, dmargulis (at) aol.com, with a brief explanation of how you produced it, DO NOT POST IMAGES TO THE LIST.
*Remember that some e-mail clients default to downsizing image attachments. Make sure you’re sending it to me at the original size.
*Entries close Monday morning, 13 July, at 06:00 Eastern/1100Z/12:00 ora italiana.
*Rather than confirm every entrant I've received, I will periodically post the initials of everyone whose file I have.
*As soon as convenient after the deadline, I'll post all the entrants in a random order. Names will not be revealed except for those entrants that I or somebody else has declared to be particularly good, which will come later.
*A discussion will follow within a few days after posting the final files.
Monument Valley: Results
I’ve posted the results of our Monument study.
Reviewing: This is from the MIT study of 5,000 images and represents one of the most iconic scenes of the American west. The MIT study employed five intermediate retouchers to correct each image, and made their results public. Our entrants today include the one I judged did the best job, plus the averaged version of the five. I have never used this image in a class so I don’t know how well a more experienced group would have done.
We have a 30 entrants. When a person submitted two or versions, I chose the one I thought was better. Most people also submitted a list of their steps, thanks very much. I haven’t read these, because I’d rather get a sense of who was successful and who wasn’t before investigating why.
The files don’t have people’s names on them, and were random-generator numbered from #801 to #830. As with past studies, we also have a “par” version, #831. To get it, I chose what I thought looked like the five best entrants, and averaged them, each one weighted 20%. This often creates a version that is superior to most if not all of its parents.
I’m going to have some things to say about this assortment, but as usual I’d like to open it up to group discussion first. What do the successful versions have in common? Meanwhile, if you’d like to know how your own version stacked up, download the par version and compare the two directly. Do you think you got the same kind of quality? If not, I hope you’ll find further discussion useful.
The folder is in the group Photos section, named Case Study: Monument Valley
Because some of us would like a closer look at these, I also have zipped all 28 and uploaded a 67 mb file to our Files section,
Search for Monument-Valley_entries_062920.zip
I look forward to your comments.
P.S. The next case study is announced today, look for a separate post. The countdown continues, we have four case studies left, and this one could be the hardest of the four.
Hi Jeanne, this is how to download the image. On the menu left, click Photos. Open the group called "Case Study: Monument Valley". You'll see two representations of the same image: one the original, the other a flattened version of it. Choose whichever you prefer to work with and click to open it. Click the blue Download button below the image and you'll see the photo in its original resolution. Then, right mouse, Save image as...
Jeanne L.D. Tifft
I've been lurking here for quite awhile and meant to try this case study for starters. I tried to download it and got only a solid black image? Please direct me to your instructions for adding to these little cases. Thank you!
JLD Tifft Images
A reminder that entries are due in this case study in 48 hours, at 06:00 eastern time Monday/1100Z/12:00 ora italiana.
Two entries have already come in in the wrong colorspace. Please make sure you are sending tagged sRGB. I have converted the incorrect ones.
I confirm receipt of entries from the following individuals:
*indicates that a corrected version was submitted
Entries from the following were at an incorrect size/cropping and would have to be resubmitted:
Re: Panama 1978: results
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Very interesting. I was very pleasantly surprised by how well it worked. Based on my experience, DeNoise AI seems optimized for use on digital files straight out of a digital camera. On scans of my old slides it often does not work very well. I sure did not see what you seem to have found.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 06:35 PM, James Gray wrote:
Re: Panama 1978: comments on individual versions
We had more trouble with pattern reduction in this exercise than might be hoped for. Part of the reason was that many people were using the Dust & Scratches filter for this purpose, but their notes indicated that at least two people, and likely more, were misusing it.
If you think you might be one of them, it’s probably worth reviewing the following discussion of how Dust & Scratches works in various settings, and how it compares to Surface Blur.
Re: Panama 1978: comments on individual versions
Thanks for taking the time to comment on all the entries. Mine is #706, and your reminder to double-check everything with a quick Auto Tone is valuable.
Auto Tone is a nice yes-but-could-it-be-better step: I’ll keep it in my bag o’ tricks. As we all know, staring at an image too long in one sitting tends to change the way we perceive and judge color and tone in that moment. I often return to an image the next morning and wonder how I possibly thought that was a good choice!
Postscript Process Color Guide AVAILABLE
To the Color Theorists,
A couple of months ago I noticed the thread here about the classic and out-of-print Agfa "Postscript Process Color Guide."
Well, in doing some unpacking after a recent move (from NYC to Portland, Ore.), I found my copy:
My career moved away from color work several years ago, and this book has been sitting in a cool dark box for quite some time. But it's too soon for retirement! This book deserves to be in the hands of someone who will love it and use it.
Of course eBay can be a great place to find a new home for such items, as well as find out their fair value. But wanted to run it past our Color Theory group first, to see if there’s any interest, before I go further afield. I’d really rather keep it in the “family" if possible.
LMK if you’re interested.
Panama 1978: comments on individual versions
Here are my notes on this set. Where names are used, the person has already identified himself in a post to the list.
701 The yellowish feeling is deliberate on the part of Gerald Bakker, who calls this one the most difficult case study so far. He blurred the AB channels and used Dust & Scratches on the L to try to eliminate the pattern. The color overall is conservative yet reasonable, but the overall impression lacks depth. As noted in one of my posts, the easy way to fix this, even now, is by blending the green into the red on a layer set to Luminosity. It is important that this blend be done in Darken rather than Normal mode, as otherwise all the blue clothing will be damaged.
702 An excellent presentation but, like the similar #713, no effort to cut the pattern. Otherwise quite realistic.
703 Every now and then we need a reminder of why we need a full tonal range every time. This person used a fairly simple process to establish vibrant but believable color and then wrecked it by not establishing a valid white point. At this point running Auto Contrast changes the image from one of the worst entrants to one of the best.
704 The contrast/detailing is good, the result of several blends plus H-K and the Lesser Hammer. The blurring is somewhat overdone. The overall impression is marginally too gray. An easy way to change that impression is to use the Sponge tool to saturate the parakeet and the little girl’s magenta collar. Such small flashes of brightness help convince the viewer that he’s not looking at a grayscale image, and we don’t have to worry about holding detail in things this small.
705 Similar to #704 in being basically correct for color but somewhat gray, with reasonable detail. The person writes, “I found it quite a challenge to get good detail and contrast in this image and to manage the tradeoff between sharpness and noise so it will be interesting to see the group results.” He used that Pattern Suppression plugin, followed by a light application of Dust & Scratches and the addition of some noise to cover up the obvious moves.
706 This person was particularly careful with the darker area of the image. To get more weight into the fleshtone, he multiplied through a blurred layer mask based on the red channel. This is the correct choice, since the red is lightest in the faces. Multiplication produces a softer look than direct blends into the red channel and gets pleasing faces here.
707 This person used H-K and two Hammer actions to get decent shape in the people seated on the wall, although the overall appears too brown. One original idea: he vignetted these people, artificially darkening the folks at left of the image and making it appear that a spotlight is shining on the main subjects. In a tropical setting with the sun almost directly overhead this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, but it does in many other image categories.
708 Accurate color, but very washed out. I’ve already discussed three solutions, which can all work in tandem where needed: 1) blending the green into the red, Darken mode, on a Luminosity layer; 2) multiplying the image through a blurred red layer mask; 3) The H-K action.
709 The person’s listing of steps doesn’t explain what’s wrong here: the subjects, and particularly me, look like they’ve been cut out of the picture and pasted back in. I surmise that the background wall was selected and then lightened. Also, the eyes needed to be excluded from the attempts to remove the pattern.
710 Chosen for the par version. Robin Mark D’Rozario posted a full description of his procedure. Basically he and Gerald were striving for the same yellowish look but this is more successful than Gerald’s #701. I still think this is too washed out. Also, the pattern reduction posterized my hair.
711 Strong purple cast, easily measurable in the wall and in the people’s hair. Remember, someone with black hair should be 0a0b or close, someone with dark brown hair should have AB equal and positive, anyone with lighter hair the B should definitely be higher. Having the A higher than the B is rare and should be confined to dark-haired people. Here, the woman at bottom left, whose hair is relatively light has an A value 14 points higher than the B.
712 See #711, way too magenta.
713 Lile #702, this is quite a pretty presentation but no real effort was made to eliminate pattern. The person reports that the entire correction took only a few minutes. He got the color essentially right, then used the green>red Darken blend as others did, plus the Bigger Hammer action at an opacity of 60%.
714 The chilliness of this one, submitted by John Furnes, was discussed in another post.
715 Chosen for the par version This one, by John Lund, like #714 was discussed in the main thread. The yellow color is nice and the weight is about right, but John admits being one of the people who took blurring out the pattern too far and got fuzzy reproduction.
716 Rather chilly, face badly blurred. Submitted by mistake in Prophoto RGB. The strong wall is the result of running H-K.
717 Attractive color and weight. My face is a little flat, although this guy did make one version with the green>red Darken move. He then blended it into another. Not clear what was done to reduce the pattern but it seems acceptable.
718 This is basically pretty good but hurt by two factors: first, the guy produced some sort of vignette to try to lighten up the area surrounding the parakeet. This had the unpleasant effect of seeming to put my face into shadow.
719 Chosen for the par version. Colorful but believable. Extreme, though acceptable, contrast added to my face. The FFT filter used to reduce the pattern created the sensation of noise in the face.
720 Chosen for the par version This one is mine and I don’t object to its strong coloring. This is the tropics, after all. H-K was helpful in keeping it somewhat subdued. Anyone who says it’s too colorful should remember that seeing it next to 27 less colorful versions tends to bias the judgment.
721 The purplish cast in this one, by James Gray, was discussed in the main thread.
722 If you find the fireworks of #719 and #722 too much, this is a reasonable alternative, which good contrast and probably the best rendition of the sloths. The color measures as slightly purple, certainly not in the league of ##711, 712, and 721, but if there’s going to be a cast I’d vote for something sunnier, #715 for example. In the main thread, I suggested that although a certain amount of pattern remains, I do not find it objectionable, and certainly prefer it to many of the overly blurry ones described above. The workflow as described is complicated with a lot of individual selections, but handled carefully. For example, he painted a new fleshtone into my face in Soft Light mode. Effective and inconspicuous.
723 Good color but washed out and blurry. See comments to #708 for solutions.
724 Too light, colors not pronounced but acceptably conservative. Pattern still in face although reduced. The individual reports unsatisfactory results with FFT.
725 Yellowish and somewhat washed out. At first, I thought this is very similar to Gerald’s #701, but when I compared the two this one is better. The apparent reason should be interesting to fans of MMM.
726 Chosen for the par version and apparently well liked by the group in spite of rather subdued color. The definition is excellent. By request, I post what the individual supplied as his steps:
727. Nice color but somewhat washed out, and quite blurry. Going over the steps it appears that his favored tool against the pattern was the Median filter. As I pointed out in the comment to #718, Median is just Dust & Scratches with a zero Threshold, so there’s never any reason to prefer it to D&S. So, this skin has the same plastic, posterized look as #718, and the suggestions there apply to this one too.
728 The par version.
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Last revised 20 May 2020
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Re: Panama 1978: results
Regarding the pattern suppression approach, re-running the process (FFT then dust and scratches filter) I see that the second step adds more softness than the first. So if some noise is acceptable then this can be reduced to get back some sharpness.
In my original submission I also added noise (3% I think) back to the image then removed it with Neat Image. This is because removing the pattern with the FFT did leave the texture of the flatter parts of the image looking a bit strange, so this step helped to make them look more natural. Again this would also have added some more softness to the edges.
To make a much better image I have taken 726 and blended it with my own through an edge mask. I used the smart blur to create the edge mask then blurred this and auto-toned it. The density of the mask can then be adjusted along with the layer opacity to mix the sharpness of one with the noise reduction effect of the other to taste. I find that this can produce a version that is acceptable at all magnifications.
Re: Panama 1978: results
ROBIN MARK D'ROZARIO
My entry is 710.
Interesting that quite a few of us used the Pattern suppression/FFT filter yet ended up with a wide variety of results.
I too used the Pattern suppression V2 macro. My earlier efforts were too soft after this.
My submission is the fifth version I tried and in an attempt to retain some detail I followed an unorthodox approach. It's not blended as I didn't think my other versions offered anything more.
1. Sharpen in RGB Amount 500, Radius 1.5 and Threshold 0.
2. Run the extension in 3D Colour mode normal suppression. There are still artifacts left over after this. I painted with black on the slits of Dan's eye to protect them.
3. Convert to LAB and run Median/D&S on the individual channels with different settings 3,2 and 4 respectively.Again Dan's eyes are protected. After this moire is gone but there is a fine checkered pattern and edges are now wavy with ghosting.
4.To try and hide the above I added 1 pixel of monochromatic Gaussian noise to the L channel.
5. USM to L channel Amount 150, Radius 0.5 and Threshold 0. There is a reasonable amount of detail in the image now, however, there are no free lunches and the is an elevated amount of noise and blockiness especially in darker tones.
Back to RGB from here to work on colour. I didn't use MMM or CB for this image. I tried for warmer colour overall with a curve in colour mode/Auto Colour/Hue Saturation, early efforts were too cold and didn't seem right. A dilemma on how much colour/contrast to put into Dan's face. I was conservative and looking at it now I should have made it pinker.
Lesser Hammer was useful for emphasizing details in lighter areas.
To combat the extra noise my second to last step I used Piccure+ plugin in noise suppression at 65 on a composite layer masked to darker tones and with lowered opacity. Surface blur also would do the same thing more or less. This cleans up the darks a bit.
In hindsight the submission needs more contrast. The Green channel applied to a blank layer on top and layer mode to Luminosity adds some pop without damaging anything.
Robin Mark D'Rozario
Re: Panama 1978: results
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thanks for the instructive and direct evaluation of my image. It is amazing that the obvious is not so obvious when you are immersed in a problem. Normally, I have problems with too much magenta or too much yellow.
I tried to start over, and after having learned that the FFT method does away with Moiré, I tried it as well. It needs some practise, but impresses me with its simplicity.
Well, the result of the corrected version came out better, but it seems I have some way to go before this is satisfactory.
Just for fun, I tried to print it, and found that the Moiré was still lurking below.
However, the colour cast disappeared, and I did get better colours.
From: firstname.lastname@example.org <email@example.com> On Behalf Of Dan Margulis via groups.io
Sent: 30. juni 2020 22:39
Subject: Re: [colortheory] Panama 1978: results
Cyan, really, but you don’t have to see it, you can measure it, just as James could measure the magenta cast in his #721,
#1 stone in wall, to left of child’s knee
EXPECTED: possibly 0a0b, more probably positive in both A and B and approximately equal, but a lot of variation due to people wanting to incorporate a “sunny” look.
#714: 43L (1)a (7)b
par: 40L 4a 4b
#2 top of head of woman seated with back to us
#714: 53L 6a (4)b
par: 51L 11a 14b
In both cases both the A and especially the B are seriously shifted toward coolness.
As in James’s case, neither of these points is at all important to the composition. What they *are* important for is that they can indicate that something is wrong in a way that my fleshtone, say, or the sloths cannot. You have that woman’s hair as being more blue than it is yellow. Impossible.
As with James, running Auto Color significantly improves this image.
Re: Panama 1978: results
I tried to grab a copy of #726 and do the Luminosity thing but it didn't work for my #719. So, I did a little of #726 improvement and came up with this:
On 6/30/2020 9:17 AM, Dan Margulis via groups.io wrote:
Re: Panama 1978: results
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 06:35 PM, James Gray wrote:
I Used Topaz DeNoise AI to get rid of texture.Hi James,
I played around with DeNoise AI also, and was quite disappointed. It seemed to work reasonably well on parts of the image, then not at all in other areas. Had to run it multiple times on different layers, then blend after the fact - very frustrating! In fact I think I saw similar results on a couple entries - wait a minute, the image has the texture suppressed here but not there? If this is AI, then it has more to learn.
I got better results from the Reduce Noise part of Studio2, although still way too much overall softening of the image. I will look into the pattern-suppression plug-ins people have cited here.