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Re: Chapter 12 in the Chevreul Book

Dan Margulis
 


On Apr 27, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Gerald Bakker <gc.bakker@...> wrote:

Interesting question. According to the text, figure 12.13B is an asymmetrical move from 12.13A. It's edge enhancement (Hiraloam color indeed), the same type that made 12.10B from 12.7A. However, I looked closely at 12.13B and it's hard to find an area that clearly shows that an asymmetrical method was used. All blues seem to have been enhanced equally, the same for all reds, greens and pinks. It would be interesting to see the result of a symmetrical move, e.g. a color boost application on 12.13A and compare with the given 12.13B.

The result would not be attractive. A setting that would get flowers as bright as in Figure 12.B would make the face quite sunburned. It would make the dress more of a peach color, and the illustration in the book she is holding would become a fiery orange. 

Sharpening, like other forms of correction, isn’t supposed to call attention to itself. The viewer hopefully sees that the image is better, but does not know how it was accomplished. So we hope that is is difficult to detect, even by experts.

Looking at the before-and-after, I’d say it’s clear that the Color Boost action wasn’t used, because that would have boosted colors everywhere. Here, the flowers are obviously more saturated in the corrected version, but the dress seems if anything less so, and that’s possibly true of the face as well.

As for whether it’s symmetrical: the definition of that is, if a certain color changes in a certain way in a certain location, then if the same color appears anywhere else in the picture it would change in the same way. I agree that the cool colors don’t indicate otherwise, but looking at the warm ones does show difference by location, e.g.

1) In the original the lips are similarly colored to the red flowers off her right ear, but in the corrected version they are darker and richer.

2) The face starts out similar to the pinkish flowers at image center left, but the fleshtone moves in various directions depending on what it’s close to. The “mustache” area, sandwiched bertween the red lips and the dark nostrils, gets lighter and more neutral. The reddish eye shadow, influenced by the blue eyes, gets darker and redder. Nothing like this is happening in the flowers.

3) The auburn-orange hair starts out as the same color as orange flowers to the left and right of the head. But the hair is affected by other flowers that merge into it, and changes color fairly drastically in certain areas but  not others. Nothing like this happens in the flowers.

4) The reddish illustration in the book starts out similar to the arcs (?) surrounding the flowers at left. The correction makes it darker but the hue doesn’t change much if at all. The arcs get lighter and perhaps more magenta.

This particular image, though not a photograph, reinforces a good point about them. Look for objects that can be identified by their color alone, and if you find them, boost that color. Things like the face, the dress, the hair, and the book don’t qualify: you need to see their shape to udentify what they are. But some of these flowers are so small that they couldn’t be identified as such in a grayscale context. It’s their color that tells us what they are. A case like that is where we need hiraloam color.

Dan Margulis



Re: Chapter 12 in the Chevreul Book

Dan Margulis
 


On Apr 26, 2020, at 9:01 PM, James Gray <James@...> wrote:

I know that the intent of the book is not get into discussions about how to use Photoshop tools or actions to accomplish what you and Chevreul are recommending.  Nevertheless, I am curious how to meld this with the PPW panel and other Photoshop tools.  On page 197 you are clearly describing the MMM action.  I think it is apparent that figure 12.11B is what you can do with the color boost in the PPW panel.   

Correct.

Am I right to assume that the modifications in figure 12.13B are due to the use of HIRALOAM sharpening of the A and B channels of LAB color mode? 

The L also.

It seems like the radius would be larger than what the PPW sharpen action default to.

With respect to color, yes. There is some hiraloam color in the PPW sharpen action but the default is very, very subtle. A heavy color setting for this poster works well, but would wreck a lot of photographs.

Dan Margulis



Re: Chapter 12 in the Chevreul Book

Gerald Bakker
 

Interesting question. According to the text, figure 12.13B is an asymmetrical move from 12.13A. It's edge enhancement (Hiraloam color indeed), the same type that made 12.10B from 12.7A. However, I looked closely at 12.13B and it's hard to find an area that clearly shows that an asymmetrical method was used. All blues seem to have been enhanced equally, the same for all reds, greens and pinks. It would be interesting to see the result of a symmetrical move, e.g. a color boost application on 12.13A and compare with the given 12.13B.
--
Gerald Bakker
http://geraldbakker.nl


Chapter 12 in the Chevreul Book

James Gray
 

I know that the intent of the book is not get into discussions about how to use Photoshop tools or actions to accomplish what you and Chevreul are recommending.  Nevertheless, I am curious how to meld this with the PPW panel and other Photoshop tools.  On page 197 you are clearly describing the MMM action.  I think it is apparent that figure 12.11B is what you can do with the color boost in the PPW panel.   Am I right to assume that the modifications in figure 12.13B are due to the use of HIRALOAM sharpening of the A and B channels of LAB color mode?  It seems like the radius would be larger than what the PPW sharpen action default to.  I hope I am not missing something about the difference between emphasizing contrast symmetrically and asymmetrically.

James Gray


Re: CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

George, thank you for your help. Did as you instructed, but the files are ruined. Rebuilding the directory had no effect. Something happened after March 10, 2018. That was the last Photoshop file modified that became 160+-bytes large. Afterwards all files are fine. I have no idea why or how. They are not aliases or place holders. Something caused the data to be thrown out. A little scary to think that all my backups are the same.

John Robinson

On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:21 PM, George Machen <gmachen@...> wrote:

John, that might be a symptom of directory damage. I don't think DiskWarrior runs in Catalina, so see if Catalina still supports:

[Make at least one bootable backup to another disk first! — SuperDuper!, Carbon Copy Cloner.]

reboot
Bong!
quickly lean on Command-S
release keys when the Unix "single user mode" starts
after it settles down, enter:
fsck -fy
if it says it made changes, run it again until it says no changes (it may run again all by itself)
enter: reboot

Your 160 bytes files might come back to life.
This creates a "consistent disk directory"; it's **possible** to lose some files, although I never have.
But in any event, you **must** — minor directory damage is like a little bit of pregnancy.

– George Machen
 



Re: CS5 files

George Machen
 

John, that might be a symptom of directory damage. I don't think DiskWarrior runs in Catalina, so see if Catalina still supports:

[Make at least one bootable backup to another disk first! — SuperDuper!, Carbon Copy Cloner.]

reboot
Bong!
quickly lean on Command-S
release keys when the Unix "single user mode" starts
after it settles down, enter:
fsck -fy
if it says it made changes, run it again until it says no changes (it may run again all by itself)
enter: reboot

Your 160 bytes files might come back to life.
This creates a "consistent disk directory"; it's **possible** to lose some files, although I never have.
But in any event, you **must** — minor directory damage is like a little bit of pregnancy.

– George Machen
 


Re: CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

Went to iCloud Drive via Safari, they are avg 160 bytes per file. Thanks.


Re: CS5 files

Lee Varis
 

I might be possible that your files are OK on the iCloud server—can you download them from there? It's possible that the iCloud Desktop Folder, the local copy, is corrupted, but the copy actually in the cloud is OK.


Re: CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

I guess I should have realized something had changed when they lose the image of the file and turn to a generic app icon.


Re: CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

Catalina 10.15.4 on a 19,1 iMac w 2TB SSD:
CC2020 and Affinity Photo 1.8.3

I don't know what has happened to the MAJORITY of my backup Photoshop and Affinity Photo files. They are now weighing in at avg.160 bytes.
That's why they are not opening. There is really nothing there.

All I have ever done is keep the work files in my iCloud Desktop Documents folder. I back up every day to external disks and a RAID. At some point I lost the files data. I look in the folder, the files are all there, but they are not the full data files anymore. In the past I have wiped my HDs and now SSD and restored the work from my backups & Time Machine. Do I now have to check the size of files now everyday to make sure I am backing up actual data or a placeholder. They aren't alias's.

Just wish I knew how this happened. 

John Robinson


Re: CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

All of the backups from several external disks report that same message

Sent from John R’s iPad Pro

On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:09 AM, angelhairpasta177 <flapjack@...> wrote:

Are you receiving a message like “this file is unreadable by this version of Photoshop?” If so, you may have to restore the file from backup if you can.

GOOD LUCK!
Bruce Jamieson

On Apr 12, 2020, at 8:55 PM, LayerActionBoy <johnrsgogl@...> wrote:

Anyone know how to revive older CS5 files? Photoshop2020 will not open them. Anyone know of any way to open them. 

John Robinson


Re: CS5 files

Dan Margulis
 


On Apr 12, 2020, at 8:55 PM, LayerActionBoy <johnrsgogl@...> wrote:

Anyone know how to revive older CS5 files? Photoshop2020 will not open them. Anyone know of any way to open them. 

Basically this is a question of the type, “Mr. Mechanic, my car doesn’t work, what’s wrong with it?” or “Doctor, I don’t feel well, can you prescribe me something?” We normally need just a few more details, such as the type of file that doesn’t open, and exactly what happens when you try.

There is no generic reason why a file from any version of Photoshop wouldn’t open in a later version. Since other programs can apparently open these files, my guess is that it involves the file suffix. Photoshop has never needed a file suffix to identify what type of file it’s trying to open. In earlier versions of Photoshop, it wouldn’t even matter if the suffix was wrong, the file would open anyway. But around CS5, as I recall, behavior changed and if the suffix was wrong the file wouldn’t open. So, it’s possible that if you have something called filename.tif, but it is in fact a JPEG, that CS5 could open it and a later version could not.

Dan Margulis


Re: CS5 files

Bruce Jamieson
 

Are you receiving a message like “this file is unreadable by this version of Photoshop?” If so, you may have to restore the file from backup if you can.

GOOD LUCK!
Bruce Jamieson

On Apr 12, 2020, at 8:55 PM, LayerActionBoy <johnrsgogl@...> wrote:

Anyone know how to revive older CS5 files? Photoshop2020 will not open them. Anyone know of any way to open them. 

John Robinson


Re: CS5 files

Hector Davila
 

I use CS5 everyday and open them up in PS2020 ver. 14.0   all the time so I don't know what you mean by older files.

If for some reason I cannot open up a CS5 file.. I open them up with another image viewer programs like IrfanView and save again.


Hector Davila


Re: SCC book question

bill bane
 

John,

 

[If you are Apple, the below may not apply.]

 

I had thought Gimp might but no. Some years ago, I bought a version of CS6 that I keep I waiting. I am CS6 (or 5) would open it.

 

I bought my insurance policy on ebay. I see a copy of CS6 right away for 64 bucks “bid” right now. . https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adobe-Photoshop-Cs6-Windows-Retail-Perpetual-Stand-alone/124151379647?hash=item1ce7ffb6bf:g:N1MAAOSwE6Rek1UT Ebay is scary, but this seller has 1300 ratings at 5 of 5 stars. Judging by the “purchase now” choices, your bid would need to be somewhere between $100 and $200 to win. There are constant sales so you can follow, and bid carefully, and probably eventually get a copy. [The only correct tactic is to bid within 15 seconds before tha auction ends. Google it.]

 

Maybe no help, but it would be tragic to lose images, so I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. Good luck.

 

Bill

 

PS. Just checked and Affinity Photo opens PSD files but does not say which. Affinity, a great program, can be downloaded on a trial basis and is not expensive in the worst case. File compatability over time is a PITA!!

 

 


CS5 files

LayerActionBoy
 

Anyone know how to revive older CS5 files? Photoshop2020 will not open them. Anyone know of any way to open them. 

John Robinson


Re: SCC book question

Dan Margulis
 


On Apr 2, 2020, at 4:51 PM, k_d@... wrote:

In the thick of reading Dan's new book: Simultaneous Contrast of colors. This question Dan can best answer but others may have an opinion too.

Pages 96-97, Fig.s 7.3 and 7.4:

I would have thought that changing the bkgd color would have little effect on the color of the ribbon facing the (bkgd) table. Yes, the ribbon appears to be shiny, but not so shiny it would completely take on the bkgd color?
The ribbon shadow on the table would change color, and as its darkness nullifies some of the color anyway, so it looks correct to me.

So maybe it was done for effect? Or maybe the partial ribbon color change was simply not the point of the images? Or it may have been an unintentional error?

I can't decide, hence my question: Shouldn't the ribbon side, reflecting the table, have remained mostly pinkish regardless of the bkgd color changes?

I’m not sure that it is pinkish in the first place, it might be a silver ribbon in the original that reflects the pink background in certain areas and not others. But whatever it is originally, certainly it is not realistic in any of the three alternate versions.

The reason is not that I couldn’t have done so but that it would have taken more time than I really wanted to spend and it wouldn’t have made the series any more or less instructive.

Recapping for those who haven’t seen it: the original is a photo of baskets containing three large bunches of grapes, one light green, one deep red, and one almost black. The background is a garish pink, but has no detail pronounced enough to stop us from changing it to any color we like.

The point of the exercise is that, assuming that each of the three grape colors is of equal importance, pink is a poor choice for background because it unduly emphasizes the green grapes at the expense of the others. And I show three alternate versions with different background colors to prove it.

The ribbon being referred to isn’t relevant to the exercise and I doubted that too many non-retouchers would look carefully at it. Changing the overall backgrounds is fairly easy but trying to get credible color changes into three versions of this silly ribbon, with all its gradations, would have added about an hour to the job that I didn’t feel like spending. If it was for a magazine advertisement, then of course I would spend the time. In this setting? Well, they say that perfection is the enemy of “good enough”. But, IMHO, sometimes “good enough” actually is good enough.

Dan Margulis


Re: SCC book question

Dan Margulis
 


On Apr 2, 2020, at 4:51 PM, k_d@... wrote:

In the thick of reading Dan's new book: Simultaneous Contrast of colors. This question Dan can best answer but others may have an opinion too.

Pages 96-97, Fig.s 7.3 and 7.4:

I would have thought that changing the bkgd color would have little effect on the color of the ribbon facing the (bkgd) table. Yes, the ribbon appears to be shiny, but not so shiny it would completely take on the bkgd color?
The ribbon shadow on the table would change color, and as its darkness nullifies some of the color anyway, so it looks correct to me.

So maybe it was done for effect? Or maybe the partial ribbon color change was simply not the point of the images? Or it may have been an unintentional error?

I can't decide, hence my question: Shouldn't the ribbon side, reflecting the table, have remained mostly pinkish regardless of the bkgd color changes?

Doug Schafer


SCC book question

Doug Schafer
 

In the thick of reading Dan's new book: Simultaneous Contrast of colors. This question Dan can best answer but others may have an opinion too.

Pages 96-97, Fig.s 7.3 and 7.4:

I would have thought that changing the bkgd color would have little effect on the color of the ribbon facing the (bkgd) table. Yes, the ribbon appears to be shiny, but not so shiny it would completely take on the bkgd color?
The ribbon shadow on the table would change color, and as its darkness nullifies some of the color anyway, so it looks correct to me.

So maybe it was done for effect? Or maybe the partial ribbon color change was simply not the point of the images? Or it may have been an unintentional error?

I can't decide, hence my question: Shouldn't the ribbon side, reflecting the table, have remained mostly pinkish regardless of the bkgd color changes?

Doug Schafer


List Rules and Objectives

Dan Margulis
 

Applied Color Theory list
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ARCHIVING
This group has existed since 2/99, but in late 12/00 it shifted servers to egroups, later yahoogroups. In 11/19, it moved to groups,io. All yahoogroups messages, files, and photos are accessible at colortheory.groups.io. Note, however, that the yahoogroups message numbering scheme did not carry over to groups.io. Therefore, any archived message that refers to a different one by number will not link to the correct message. Search by text instead.

From time to time, we have post edited full threads, at
There are currently around 300 such threads available. The most recent update was August, 2013. 

THE MODERNCOLORWORKFLOW SITE
My book Modern Photoshop Color Workflow was released in March, 2013. In conjunction with it, we opened http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com, which has a variety of materials that might supplement the discussions of this list.

RE-USE OF POSTED MATERIAL
In today's information age, the assumption must be that comments posted to groups like this one are for public consumption, and may be freely quoted by others without further permission. Images referred to in group messages, whether posted to this group's photo section or posted on the web sites of others, are a different story. Such images are assumed to be copyrighted material, and no reuse is permissible without the consent of the owner.

AUTO-REPLIES
If you auto-reply to e-mail (typically to inform people that you are on vacation), be sure that the list is excluded. Among other ways, you can do this by setting your auto-reply to ignore either messages containing [colortheory] in the title, or "Precedence: bulk" in the header. If you auto-reply more than once to list messages, your posting privileges will be suspended so that moderators will not have to delete each auto-reply manually. If you subsequently wish to post to the list and receive an automated reply that you are not permitted to post, please contact a moderator.

QUESTIONS AS TO APPROPRIATENESS
If you have doubts as to the propriety of posting something, please feel free to contact me or another moderator directly.

UNSUBSCRIBING and POSTING DIFFICULTIES
Every list message contains an Unsubscribe link at the bottom. If you have any difficulty in either unsubscribing or in posting to the group, consider the possibility that you are no longer posting or receiving under the exact address with which you subscribed. 

If you attempt to post and receive a message stating that, although you are a member, you are not permitted to post, it means that a moderator has manually disallowed your posting privileges. We do this to members who have sent spam (often the result of a virus) or who have set their mailbox to auto-reply to the group explaining that they are out of the office. If you get this message and wish your rights restored, contact a moderator offline.

To change your email address, log into Groups.io. Then look for the dropdown in the top right corner of the page, which will be either your name or email address. Click that and then click Account.

On the edit profile page, you can change your email address. Once you do so, you will receive a new confirmation email. Once you reply to that, you will be all set.

If the email address you wish to change to is already registered with Groups.io, a page will come up explaining the account merge process and verifying that you would like to merge your accounts.


LEDET GRAPHICS TRAINING
This list is sponsored by Ledet Graphics Training, which offers a variety of Internet and graphic arts courses, with company-owned facilities in the Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington, DC areas. For further information, visit www.ledet.com or call 877-819-2665 (+1 770-414-5007 from outside U.S.)


Dan Margulis
Last revised 20 February 2020
Suggestions for revising this document are welcome.

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