Date   

Re: Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

john c.
 

How is control-z in 2019 any different from shift-control-z in prior versions which gave us as many undo's as we set history states for in preferences? Is it truly unlimited now? The previous limit was a ridiculous 1000 undo's, so what’s the new big deal besides using 2 keys instead of 3?
 

Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: [COLORTHEORY] Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?
 


You picked some of my favorite new features in PS CC 2019.  One I didn’t see mentioned is Control < Z.  It used to toggle between the current state and the previous state.  Now, Control < Z can be hit many times to allow unlimited redos.  That may seem like a small thing but it is a most welcome new features.  Ah, just saw that you did mention this feature.

 

 


Re: Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

Jim Donovan
 

Thank you for the input, very helpful! Thanks Kirk for the great tips on how NOT to uninstall previous versions. Once the dust settles on PS 2019 and the many fixes that we know are coming I think I'll give it a try. Need to be able to keep a working version just in case. Jim Donovan

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:42 PM Kirk Thibault kirkthibault@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:
 

Hi Jim,

I have several versions on my machines and can run them all concurrently.  I use the Creative Cloud plan for all of them (that is, I do not run a pre-CC version along with the CC versions, but I did many versions ago w/ CS6 and the CC versions with no problems).  You should also be able to remove and re-install all of the CC versions at will via the Creative Cloud Desktop app - on my machine, this goes all the way back to CS6.  If you click on the down-pointing triangle next to the “open” button in the CC Desktop app for any version of photoshop you have installed, you can choose the “manage” option and choose to install “Other versions" of photoshop.

I just opened CC2015, CC2018 and CC2019 all at the same time on my Mac with no problems.  For more recent versions of Photoshop, plug-ins live in a common location so re-installing them (or copy-pasting) with each new version is no longer necessary for most plug-ins.  Scripts and that kind of thing may require new installation for each new version of PS, depending on the nature of the support files and where they need to live.

If you want only certain plug-ins to be available to a particular install of PS, then install the plug-in files in the local, version-specific plug-ins folder, not the common folder.

None of my installations of new versions have adversely affected a previous install.  HOWEVER YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN YOU INSTALL (“UPGRADE”) THE NEW VERSION YOU UNCHECK THE “REMOVE OLD VERSIONS” BOX from the “Advanced” options of the dialog that should appear when you choose to upgrade to the new version.  You might also want to transfer your preferences to the new version as well, which you can specify in the dialog (checkbox).  Here is a short video on YouTube that shows the dialog to which I refer, albeit for Adobe Audition CC - but the dialog is generally the same.


If you accidentally remove the old version (2014, for example) the application will be removed but your old PSCC2014 folder and the plug-ins folder inside of it should remain intact in your Applications folder.  If you re-install 2014 it will re-install back into that folder.

Hope this helps, I apologize in advance if your specific platform or workflow might not conform to my experience.  I cannot, obviously, guarantee that you will be 100% successful with no issues whatsoever.

kirk thibault



On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:15 PM, Jim Donovan jim@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:


Hello,
 Been bouncing around this subject for years. I work for a publishing company my job is to prep/correct/retouch all photos that print in our magazines. We print a host of niche magazine titles  that print sheetfed and web. I process many hundreds of photos per month.
 
I run PS 2014 and use the Dan's panel several amazing plus ins. Works fantastic. I have a very specific workflow and many go to time proven methods that produce consistently good results. I haven't seen anything in any update since PS 2014 that would be enough benefit my specific workflow to go through the headache of upgrading and re-setting up my photoshop set up. 

 A glance at 2019 PS has me intrigued with several tools that finally would be of benefit to me. The new Content Aware(stunning! Check it out!), The Modern Undo, Blendmode preview, Color Wheel(uses HSB!) Auto Commit and 2x select subject have me pondering and upgrade.

 I have gotten many mixed answers and I need to know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that I CAN RUN two photoshops completely independent of each other at the same time with no issues what so ever. Like they don't even know each other is on my mac. I've heard sure you can, I've heard no you can't, I've heard you must replace an old version and start from scratch and every combination you can think of. I LOVE photsohop, I HATE having to play around with something trying to make it work, don't have time or interest to do so. It needs to work, now. I have two versions of Indesign that work just fine and independent on the same mac. I don't have time to fix a train wreck.

 Didn't know who else to ask. So what has been everyone's experience with upgrading PS? Can I run TWO versions with NO issues like I can with Indesign? Hopefully I can get a 100% answer and  download and set up PS 2019 with doing ANY damage to my PS 2014. Thank you for your time.

-- 
Jim Donovan
Harris Publishing
208-542-2231
Jim@...




--
Jim Donovan
Harris Publishing
208-542-2231
Jim@...


Re: Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

Ronny Light
 

At various times, I’ve run two versions of Photoshop.  I ran CS6 and plugins when I moved to PS CC and either program and its plugins ran well as if they were the only installation.

 

I habitually keep the previous version installed just in case something doesn’t work right with the current version.  I have PS CC 2018 and PS CC 2019 installed now. 

 

You picked some of my favorite new features in PS CC 2019.  One I didn’t see mentioned is Control < Z.  It used to toggle between the current state and the previous state.  Now, Control < Z can be hit many times to allow unlimited redos.  That may seem like a small thing but it is a most welcome new features.  Ah, just saw that you did mention this feature.

 

 

From: COLORTHEORY@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:15 PM
To: colortheory@...
Subject: [COLORTHEORY] Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

 

 

Hello,

 Been bouncing around this subject for years. I work for a publishing company my job is to prep/correct/retouch all photos that print in our magazines. We print a host of niche magazine titles  that print sheetfed and web. I process many hundreds of photos per month.

 
I run PS 2014 and use the Dan's panel several amazing plus ins. Works fantastic. I have a very specific workflow and many go to time proven methods that produce consistently good results. I haven't seen anything in any update since PS 2014 that would be enough benefit my specific workflow to go through the headache of upgrading and re-setting up my photoshop set up.

 A glance at 2019 PS has me intrigued with several tools that finally would be of benefit to me. The new Content Aware(stunning! Check it out!), The Modern Undo, Blendmode preview, Color Wheel(uses HSB!) Auto Commit and 2x select subject have me pondering and upgrade.

 I have gotten many mixed answers and I need to know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that I CAN RUN two photoshops completely independent of each other at the same time with no issues what so ever. Like they don't even know each other is on my mac. I've heard sure you can, I've heard no you can't, I've heard you must replace an old version and start from scratch and every combination you can think of. I LOVE photsohop, I HATE having to play around with something trying to make it work, don't have time or interest to do so. It needs to work, now. I have two versions of Indesign that work just fine and independent on the same mac. I don't have time to fix a train wreck.

 Didn't know who else to ask. So what has been everyone's experience with upgrading PS? Can I run TWO versions with NO issues like I can with Indesign? Hopefully I can get a 100% answer and  download and set up PS 2019 with doing ANY damage to my PS 2014. Thank you for your time.


--

Jim Donovan

Harris Publishing
208-542-2231

Jim@...


Re: Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

Kirk Thibault
 

Hi Jim,

I have several versions on my machines and can run them all concurrently.  I use the Creative Cloud plan for all of them (that is, I do not run a pre-CC version along with the CC versions, but I did many versions ago w/ CS6 and the CC versions with no problems).  You should also be able to remove and re-install all of the CC versions at will via the Creative Cloud Desktop app - on my machine, this goes all the way back to CS6.  If you click on the down-pointing triangle next to the “open” button in the CC Desktop app for any version of photoshop you have installed, you can choose the “manage” option and choose to install “Other versions" of photoshop.

I just opened CC2015, CC2018 and CC2019 all at the same time on my Mac with no problems.  For more recent versions of Photoshop, plug-ins live in a common location so re-installing them (or copy-pasting) with each new version is no longer necessary for most plug-ins.  Scripts and that kind of thing may require new installation for each new version of PS, depending on the nature of the support files and where they need to live.

If you want only certain plug-ins to be available to a particular install of PS, then install the plug-in files in the local, version-specific plug-ins folder, not the common folder.

None of my installations of new versions have adversely affected a previous install.  HOWEVER YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN YOU INSTALL (“UPGRADE”) THE NEW VERSION YOU UNCHECK THE “REMOVE OLD VERSIONS” BOX from the “Advanced” options of the dialog that should appear when you choose to upgrade to the new version.  You might also want to transfer your preferences to the new version as well, which you can specify in the dialog (checkbox).  Here is a short video on YouTube that shows the dialog to which I refer, albeit for Adobe Audition CC - but the dialog is generally the same.


If you accidentally remove the old version (2014, for example) the application will be removed but your old PSCC2014 folder and the plug-ins folder inside of it should remain intact in your Applications folder.  If you re-install 2014 it will re-install back into that folder.

Hope this helps, I apologize in advance if your specific platform or workflow might not conform to my experience.  I cannot, obviously, guarantee that you will be 100% successful with no issues whatsoever.

kirk thibault



On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:15 PM, Jim Donovan jim@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:


Hello,
 Been bouncing around this subject for years. I work for a publishing company my job is to prep/correct/retouch all photos that print in our magazines. We print a host of niche magazine titles  that print sheetfed and web. I process many hundreds of photos per month.
 
I run PS 2014 and use the Dan's panel several amazing plus ins. Works fantastic. I have a very specific workflow and many go to time proven methods that produce consistently good results. I haven't seen anything in any update since PS 2014 that would be enough benefit my specific workflow to go through the headache of upgrading and re-setting up my photoshop set up. 

 A glance at 2019 PS has me intrigued with several tools that finally would be of benefit to me. The new Content Aware(stunning! Check it out!), The Modern Undo, Blendmode preview, Color Wheel(uses HSB!) Auto Commit and 2x select subject have me pondering and upgrade.

 I have gotten many mixed answers and I need to know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that I CAN RUN two photoshops completely independent of each other at the same time with no issues what so ever. Like they don't even know each other is on my mac. I've heard sure you can, I've heard no you can't, I've heard you must replace an old version and start from scratch and every combination you can think of. I LOVE photsohop, I HATE having to play around with something trying to make it work, don't have time or interest to do so. It needs to work, now. I have two versions of Indesign that work just fine and independent on the same mac. I don't have time to fix a train wreck.

 Didn't know who else to ask. So what has been everyone's experience with upgrading PS? Can I run TWO versions with NO issues like I can with Indesign? Hopefully I can get a 100% answer and  download and set up PS 2019 with doing ANY damage to my PS 2014. Thank you for your time.

-- 
Jim Donovan
Harris Publishing
208-542-2231
Jim@...



Re: Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

RJay Hansen
 

I had multiple versions of Photoshop on my machine for a long time. Never had any problems. I don't know that I ever had two different versions running at the same time though. 

As a caveat, I have had many problems recently with the PPW panel and two or three weeks ago, wondering if having multiple Photoshop versions on my machine was causing the PPW problems, I uninstalled all but the latest version in an attempt to fix my PPW problem. I don't think that was what was causing the problems as uninstalling older Photoshop version did not fix the PPW issue.

That's my experience. Hope it helps.

RJay


Upgrade PS, Can you run two versions?

Jim Donovan
 

Hello,
 Been bouncing around this subject for years. I work for a publishing company my job is to prep/correct/retouch all photos that print in our magazines. We print a host of niche magazine titles  that print sheetfed and web. I process many hundreds of photos per month.
 
I run PS 2014 and use the Dan's panel several amazing plus ins. Works fantastic. I have a very specific workflow and many go to time proven methods that produce consistently good results. I haven't seen anything in any update since PS 2014 that would be enough benefit my specific workflow to go through the headache of upgrading and re-setting up my photoshop set up.

 A glance at 2019 PS has me intrigued with several tools that finally would be of benefit to me. The new Content Aware(stunning! Check it out!), The Modern Undo, Blendmode preview, Color Wheel(uses HSB!) Auto Commit and 2x select subject have me pondering and upgrade.

 I have gotten many mixed answers and I need to know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that I CAN RUN two photoshops completely independent of each other at the same time with no issues what so ever. Like they don't even know each other is on my mac. I've heard sure you can, I've heard no you can't, I've heard you must replace an old version and start from scratch and every combination you can think of. I LOVE photsohop, I HATE having to play around with something trying to make it work, don't have time or interest to do so. It needs to work, now. I have two versions of Indesign that work just fine and independent on the same mac. I don't have time to fix a train wreck.

 Didn't know who else to ask. So what has been everyone's experience with upgrading PS? Can I run TWO versions with NO issues like I can with Indesign? Hopefully I can get a 100% answer and  download and set up PS 2019 with doing ANY damage to my PS 2014. Thank you for your time.

--
Jim Donovan
Harris Publishing
208-542-2231
Jim@...


Re: Hidden message

john c.
 

I haven’t tried it recently, but when they first introduced this technology, we were able to scan the bills in sections so that the tell tale pattern wasn’t visible to the software and then piece them together in Photoshop.
 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [COLORTHEORY] Hidden message
 


Yes, but there are also always workarounds

https://creativemarket.com/blog/adobe-doesnt-want-you-to-photoshop-money-heres-how-to-do-it-anyway


Hector Davila




On 10/16/2018 1:14 PM, Todie todie@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:
 

It seems that the word VOID is expected, so don’t fight it unless you don’t mind being questioned by law enforcement.

 
I don’t know this technology, but remember when Adobe was cooperating with the Secret Service about currency scanning, a long time ago.

Laurentiu
 


Re: Hidden message

Chris Corich
 

I will have to check again when i get home tonight, but neither Lightroom nor Photoshop had any problems with a five-dollar bill that had been photographed with my infrared camera. (The bill has a couple stripes in it in infrared.)

The "void" thing is, I believe, an intentional moire. I've received payroll check stubs (direct deposit) like this for many years.

Chris Corich


Re: Hidden message

Hector Davila
 

On 10/16/2018 1:14 PM, Todie todie@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:
 

It seems that the word VOID is expected, so don’t fight it unless you don’t mind being questioned by law enforcement.


I don’t know this technology, but remember when Adobe was cooperating with the Secret Service about currency scanning, a long time ago.

Laurentiu



Re: Hidden message

kirkthibault
 

Funny thing - for a long time, Photoshop has not permitted you to open an image of scanned currency (I tried a $10 USD bill); however, Lightroom will and I was able to pass the image into Photoshop by sending the image from Lightroom to Photoshop using the Edit in.... command. 

Ooops.  Maybe this has been corrected- I think I did this in LR6. 

Kirk Thibault. 


On Oct 16, 2018, at 16:14, Todie todie@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

 

It seems that the word VOID is expected, so don’t fight it unless you don’t mind being questioned by law enforcement.


I don’t know this technology, but remember when Adobe was cooperating with the Secret Service about currency scanning, a long time ago.

Laurentiu


On Oct 16, 2018, at 13:29, qualitycontrol@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

 

Today I needed to email my auto insurance card, and to my surprise when I scanned the card, the scan very clearly showed the word VOID in large letters repeated multiple times. Upon close inspection of the card with a loupe I can see that there are small dots arranged in different patterns, although I still can't make out any pattern that would so clearly reveal the word VOID to the exclusion of all the other dots.

Interestingly, there is also a background pattern that covers the whole sheet, visible to the naked eye, which goes right across the areas where VOID would appear. Although I can clearly see the pattern on the card, it is not present in the scanned image.

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer




Re: Hidden message

Laurentiu Todie
 

It seems that the word VOID is expected, so don’t fight it unless you don’t mind being questioned by law enforcement.

I don’t know this technology, but remember when Adobe was cooperating with the Secret Service about currency scanning, a long time ago.

Laurentiu


On Oct 16, 2018, at 13:29, qualitycontrol@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

 

Today I needed to email my auto insurance card, and to my surprise when I scanned the card, the scan very clearly showed the word VOID in large letters repeated multiple times. Upon close inspection of the card with a loupe I can see that there are small dots arranged in different patterns, although I still can't make out any pattern that would so clearly reveal the word VOID to the exclusion of all the other dots.

Interestingly, there is also a background pattern that covers the whole sheet, visible to the naked eye, which goes right across the areas where VOID would appear. Although I can clearly see the pattern on the card, it is not present in the scanned image.

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer




Re: Hidden message

Michael Jahn
 


yes, indeed.

Try copying a 100 dollar bill on a color copier sometime.

Most detect these security patterns. Many can add them as well.

Example;

http://support.ricoh.com/bb_v1oi/pub_e/oi_view/0001053/0001053552/view/security/int/0154.htm


Respectfully,

Michael Jahn
2718 Cimmaron Ave
Simi Valley, CA 93065

805 416 6946


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:36 AM qualitycontrol@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer




Re: Hidden message

kirkthibault
 

Google “void pantograph” - here are some patents/white papers, etc. that explain the underlying printing technology.




kirk thibault

On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:29 PM, qualitycontrol@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:


Today I needed to email my auto insurance card, and to my surprise when I scanned the card, the scan very clearly showed the word VOID in large letters repeated multiple times. Upon close inspection of the card with a loupe I can see that there are small dots arranged in different patterns, although I still can't make out any pattern that would so clearly reveal the word VOID to the exclusion of all the other dots. 

Interestingly, there is also a background pattern that covers the whole sheet, visible to the naked eye, which goes right across the areas where VOID would appear. Although I can clearly see the pattern on the card, it is not present in the scanned image.

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer






Re: Hidden message

Michael King
 

Its my understanding that modern scanning software & photocopiers etc. have build in detection for banknotes and other sensitive materials and that triggers the VOID printing.

Maybe take a photo with your camera and print it :)
I suspect this path is as yet not protected.

Mike King

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 18:36, qualitycontrol@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:
 

Today I needed to email my auto insurance card, and to my surprise when I scanned the card, the scan very clearly showed the word VOID in large letters repeated multiple times. Upon close inspection of the card with a loupe I can see that there are small dots arranged in different patterns, although I still can't make out any pattern that would so clearly reveal the word VOID to the exclusion of all the other dots.

Interestingly, there is also a background pattern that covers the whole sheet, visible to the naked eye, which goes right across the areas where VOID would appear. Although I can clearly see the pattern on the card, it is not present in the scanned image.

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer




Hidden message

Quality Control
 

Today I needed to email my auto insurance card, and to my surprise when I scanned the card, the scan very clearly showed the word VOID in large letters repeated multiple times. Upon close inspection of the card with a loupe I can see that there are small dots arranged in different patterns, although I still can't make out any pattern that would so clearly reveal the word VOID to the exclusion of all the other dots.

Interestingly, there is also a background pattern that covers the whole sheet, visible to the naked eye, which goes right across the areas where VOID would appear. Although I can clearly see the pattern on the card, it is not present in the scanned image.

Seems to be a very clever technology. Can anyone here tell me more?

Jonathan Clymer




Re: ColorPerfect plugin

Jean Dubois
 

I've now put some time into reading from actual users. ColorPerfect seems almost exclusively used to help convert scanned color negatives, which makes it even more specific than I thought.

Most of these people use either VueScan or their camera, either with or without ColorPerfect.

The majority seems quite happy with the results that save them a lot of time, or that they otherwise couldn't get. They are unhappy with the old small interface, workflow, and how info on the site is organized... (many were old sources though -- *maybe* the site has improved)

The guy you will like said, "Just learn curves...! You will need them to fix some variations anyway."

One guy said, "95% can be done in Photoshop."  He's the only one that seems to leave some room for a special kind of magic from ColorPerfect. Others don't seem to brag about that, they are simply happy when it works for them.

One source contained a link by Iliah Borg to an article from Dan.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4246753#forum-post-61186336

Another user is mentioning more PS criticisms on the CP site (I haven't verified if they are there)...

Erfahrener Benutzer, 2010: As far as basic inverting goes, the author of Colorperfect has two very good points to make:

(1) PS’s gamma control in Levels is broken for large changes in gamma (much over 1.4 or .71 if I recall).

(2) PS’s invert is not the proper way to invert negatives. PS’s invert essentially does: newpixel = (1 - pixel value).  For inversion, we want to do: newpixel = 1/pixel value.
www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/129423-colour-negative-scanning-vuescan-and-colorperfect/#entry1441879
-
And lastly to Dan about the "resolution" again... This was purely my (poor?) choice of words, based on...
"While Curves works on 16 bit/channel images, the points defining the correction curve are limited strictly to 8 bit 0–255 values. This is simply not sufficient to reproduce important parts of the curve required here."

With all the extra tips and links I've seen left and right, I'm getting quite confident it may be just as quick for me to properly master curves... ;-)  OTOH, anyone likes a good and easy starting point...


Re: ColorPerfect plugin

onelistdrs
 

I agree.

And here is a simple test to prove it.

Do an image correction to your satisfaction using PPW or any method that works for you. Then apply the "auto" color correction of any program.
If you initial image was 100% correct, nothing should change.
If the auto program makes a change, is it better or worse?
At a minimum it probably looks worse, but if better, or different in a more desirable way, see what changed.

Consider blending any number of auto corrections of the same image and compare to your initial version.
Always use what you think is best for your goals for the image.

Doug Schafer


Re: ColorPerfect plugin

Jean Dubois
 

"Even if you acquire all the 'auto color' programs from different vendors [...]"

> Not sure where you are getting the 'cheap auto plug-in' vibe from? (if that is what you are suggesting) From watching a video demo (http://youtu.be/yg0YncFKBRs), the plugin (to me) is rather looking 'too nerdy' than 'auto'...

I appreciate there are some people that try to specifically and affordably address restoration problems, and - like Dan - seem to know what they are talking about.

But since I may not initially notice the value or difference myself, I'm asking for more experiencd feedback here. My feeling here was:  'unnecessary' or 'hidden gem'...?

I will *of course* continue with Dan's books, even for the humour alone! :)


Re: ColorPerfect plugin

Jean Dubois
 

Thank you very much for your time and colorful comments, Dan. I will read and digest that a bit.


Re: ColorPerfect plugin

Rick Gordon
 

My understanding of the "resolution" problem with curves is that Photoshop only allows integer input, leading to a limitation of either 100 or 255 choices, depending on curve settings. And, in this respect, considering that much of Lab's a and b space is essentially unused, Lab curves can amplify this limitation.

However (assuming that the curve is either an adjustment layer or has been applied to a layer), this can be remedied by varying the layer opacity and/or fill settings.

Rick Gordon

--------------------
OnOctober 6, 2018 at 2:23:35 PM[-0700],
Dmargulis Dmargulis]wroteinanemailentitled
"Re: [COLORTHEORY] ColorPerfect plugin":
Curves have nothing to do with resolution and I did not read the article as saying otherwise. What it did say is that curves are fundamentally flawed. The problem is that they are not referring to curves as we know them, but rather to the *master* curve: the one that affects all channels equally. That approach is indeed fundamentally flawed, which is no big secret; I pointed it out in a 1996 column,
I dont know whether they meant to imply that because using the master curve for anything more than a minimal move is inferior it proves that all curves are fundamentally flawed. If so, it is like saying that a Mercedes is fundamentally flawed because if you put sand in its gas tank it wont perform adequately.
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

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