Date   

Re: Printing in China, with little info

Rick Gordon
 

Creating a Max GCR profile based of FOGRA39 data might be a consideration.

On the other hand, I'd probably just try to determine a dot gain value, and convert using a legacy Photoshop Max Black profile, apply FOGRA39, and run an output test.

Rick Gordon

--------------------
On April 14, 2017 at 5:16:38 PM [-0700], 
Rick Gordon wrote in an email entitled 
"Re: [COLORTHEORY] Printing in China, with little info":
But what about the wrinkle of it's being one ink? If you convert using the FOGRA39, you'll get a 4-ink separation.

So the question here is: if there is a specialized maximum black profile that will send everything to the black plate, then yes, go for it. But if not? Then you need to separate to another grayscale or max black CMYK profile, and apply the FOGRA39 (which in the case of the grayscale would require converting to CMYK and  isolating data to K).

So basically having some expectation of the dot gain doesn't sound like a bad idea, since it's not going to be a one-step conversion without a suitable profile for mapping all the data to K, right?

Rick Gordon
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


Re: Printing in China, with little info

Rick Gordon
 

But what about the wrinkle of it's being one ink? If you convert using the FOGRA39, you'll get a 4-ink separation.

So the question here is: if there is a specialized maximum black profile that will send everything to the black plate, then yes, go for it. But if not? Then you need to separate to another grayscale or max black CMYK profile, and apply the FOGRA39 (which in the case of the grayscale would require converting to CMYK and  isolating data to K).

So basically having some expectation of the dot gain doesn't sound like a bad idea, since it's not going to be a one-step conversion without a suitable profile for mapping all the data to K, right?

Rick Gordon

--------------------
On April 14, 2017 at 5:01:07 PM [-0700], 
Henry Davis Davishr] wrote in an email entitled 
"Re: [COLORTHEORY] Printing in China, with little info":
Would anyone here know any advice on what dot gain might be used for BWs on a European press using FOGRA39 for the color? Not much to go on, I know. But from my research, it seems like it may be different from the old 20%, especially if its CTP in Shanghai.
___________________________________________
RICK GORDON
EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
___________________________________________
WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com


Re: Printing in China, with little info

Henry Davis
 

What you have is a dream come true (according to some).  The ICC initiative and Profiled workflow have given you their best - an ICC Profile.  Calibrate and profile your monitor. Use their press profile - and get a proof.  If not a complete set of proofs then at least some of the images that are causing the most concern.

Cross your fingers.  A lot of things can happen with your files behind the scenes that you might never know.  The only other question you might get an answer for is whether you should convert and then embed with their profile or send RGB color (profiled and embedded).  They may say that either approach is ok.  They may say you're overthinking again.

They have actually responded with what may be the simplest answer to a simple everyday question.  If you're experienced with preparing photos and aren't working with unusual subjects and scenes then the results will probably not be way off even if not exactly as expected. 

Henry Davis


On Apr 14, 2017, at 5:49 AM, dmargulis DMargulis@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:

Would anyone here know any advice on what dot gain might be used for BWs on a European press using FOGRA39 for the color? Not much to go on, I know. But from my research, it seems like it may be different from the old 20%, especially if its CTP in Shanghai.

I’ve tried asking the print broker as I am in the US, but it seems no one has the answer or really cares to find out. It should be a simple answer to a simple everyday question for a press one would think. The most I’ve been able to get out of them is the ICC profile (FINALLY) and that I’m overthinking it by asking such questions and should just go with the default because everything they’ve gotten back from that press has looked “fine”. Oy vey!


Printing in China, with little info

Dan Margulis
 

The following message came in on moderncolorworkflow.com. I’ll answer it, but maybe some people here would like to take a crack at it as well.

Dan Margulis

***************
Hi Dan…

I just grabbed your book Professional Photoshop and I was considering some of your Ledet training. Also in the process of trying out the PPW Panel. I’m great in Photoshop and work in it all day long, but as a designer, not as an official color corrector. I usually leave that to the pros and work alongside them for final output.

Unfortunately, I’ve been tasked with color correcting about 500+ photos myself (BW & Color) BEFORE your class in August. I looked but there doesn’t seem to be any online versions.

Would anyone here know any advice on what dot gain might be used for BWs on a European press using FOGRA39 for the color? Not much to go on, I know. But from my research, it seems like it may be different from the old 20%, especially if its CTP in Shanghai.

I’ve tried asking the print broker as I am in the US, but it seems no one has the answer or really cares to find out. It should be a simple answer to a simple everyday question for a press one would think. The most I’ve been able to get out of them is the ICC profile (FINALLY) and that I’m overthinking it by asking such questions and should just go with the default because everything they’ve gotten back from that press has looked “fine”. Oy vey!


Wynn Bullock Exhibit

Jim Lawson
 

There is an extraordinary exhibit of Wynn Bullocks work at the University of Maryland art Gallery.  https://artgallery.umd.edu/wynn-bullock-revelations

It's decidedly black and white, but when you have an opportunity to see some really extraordinary photographic images in print I think it's relevant.  I hope the moderators agree.  It will be there for two more weeks and the gallery is open next Saturday.  And all of the prints we're made by Wynn himself.  All of the prints are mounted behind nonreflective museum glass and the lighting in the gallery is daylight balanced which is really helpful.   



Jim Lawson

email                            jiml1948@...                                                  
website                        http://www.jimlawsonphotography.com                                    
blog                            http://jimlawsonphotography.wordpress.com/       

                                             



List Rules and Objectives

Dan Margulis
 

Applied Color Theory list--General Description and Rules
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Dan Margulis
Last revised 1 October 2015
Suggestions for revising this document are welcome.


Re: ...of likely interest to some

Gerald Bakker
 

>> Did anyone else watch the "Video Quick Tips"?

I did, being attracted by the caption "How it works" on that site. Alas, it only explained the user interface, not the sharpening itself. Why this product would be better than other sharpening tools is left in the dark. 

>> Secondly the video with the dog on the left has a bunch of what look like other examples to click on after the video is done running, so I clicked on a few. They were links to Youtube videos of The Munsters, Cream's 1969 Farewell Concert, Michael Jackson Videos and some others. Just found this bizarre. Maybe it's me?

This is YouTube functionality. It suggests a number of videos that are related to what you just saw, or to what you looked at recently, or whatever Youtube thinks you may be interested in.

Gerald Bakker
http://geraldbakker.nl


Re: ...of likely interest to some

Jim Donovan
 

 Did anyone else watch the "Video Quick Tips"? My first impression is my goodness is the lady narrating is beyond cheesy and just flat out annoying. I find it hard to take a product seriously when the first impression is that poor, just not a good look. I would surely look past that if the product is good. Would love to to hear from anyone who has actually tried it out on a bunch of images. I may try out the free trail and see what it is like.

 Secondly the video with the dog on the left has a bunch of what look like other examples to click on after the video is done running, so I clicked on a few. They were links to Youtube videos of The Munsters, Cream's 1969 Farewell Concert, Michael Jackson Videos and some others. Just found this bizarre. Maybe it's me? Jim Donovan

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Gunnar K beexact@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:
 



Michael Jahn:
"...So, Gunnar, perhaps that is the disconnect - are you sharpening for inject
printing, wide format or digital printing systems - or are your images
being printed in offset ( or flexo / rotogravure / letterpress / something
else ) ?..."

Michael – like I said initially – I apply some very light sharpening in the RAW conversion process, (which results in a .tif file)...camera set to no sharpening...after RAW conversion I polish in Photoshop (in accordance with my own workflow) but absolutely no sharpening – my aim is to produce an optimal RGB file and that's it. – Years ago, when I scanned my Kodachromes, I did very differently...(then I did edge selected sharpening in LAB...now I never bother with LAB)
gunnar kullenberg



Re: ...of likely interest to some

Gunnar K
 



Michael Jahn:
"...So, Gunnar, perhaps that is the disconnect - are you sharpening for inject
printing, wide format or digital printing systems - or are your images
being printed in offset ( or flexo / rotogravure / letterpress / something
else ) ?..."

Michael – like I said initially – I apply some very light sharpening in the RAW conversion process, (which results in a .tif file)...camera set to no sharpening...after RAW conversion I polish in Photoshop (in accordance with my own workflow) but absolutely no sharpening – my aim is to produce an optimal RGB file and that's it. – Years ago, when I scanned my Kodachromes, I did very differently...(then I did edge selected sharpening in LAB...now I never bother with LAB)
gunnar kullenberg


Re: ...of likely interest to some

Michael Jahn
 

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Gunnar K beexact@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

I have always been skeptical about sharpening claims...

Years ago, when I still had hair ( in the 80s or so ) I was first introduced to 'why we sharpen' images when we were scanning transparencies and then printing them with halftone dots. Then, when I was hired as a prepress director from a company that printed the same images in both heatset offset ( SWOP-ish) and ALSO in Rotogravure ( Type4 inks, NOT SWOP-ish) I was face with a problem to solve - do i keep two images in the archive - each as different CMYK recipies?

I decided ( with help from many folks ) to have a single achive, which would then pass through a LUT on their way to the filmsetter or 

helioklischograph ...

Which then presented me with a different problem - if i scanned with sharpening, it was just right for offset ( at the halftone screen we were using - 150 ) but too much for Rotogravure ( not really halftone, so, hard to compare, but it was pretty bad with people / fashion )

It happens that Dan wrote a really nice article about 'when to apply sharpening' that included a comparison ( with side by side images ) or applting the same amount to identical images BUT where the different images were at different resolutions ( which seemed to be what was creating issues for us as we had to aoften had to scale the images down to fit in the catalog printers ....

So, Gunnar, perhaps that is the disconnect - are you sharpening for inject printing, wide format or digital printing systems - or are your images being printed in offset ( or flexo / rotogravure / letterpress / something else ) ?



Re: ...of likely interest to some

Gunnar K
 

...I haven't tried it myself (I can't, I'm running SnowLeopard)


I have always been skeptical about sharpening claims...it doesn't seem even theoretically possible to me, but...I have at times saved images in anticipation of the "impossible"...there have been software making similar claims that I have tried and it didn't work..."deconvolution claims" were fantasy...
There has been so much discussion about "sharpening" on this board...never made sense to me. If a picture isn't "sharp", it's a toss...I use DxO (outdated version) and has it set to a very, very "moderate" level of USM and even that, is sometimes too much...if one attempts to sharpen an already sharp image, one will wreck it...in my opinion
Gunnar Kullenberg
LA, CA



Re: ...of likely interest to some

Hector Davila
 

I was looking at the sharpen photo galley
http://www.projects-software.com/sharpen/gallery

it appears to me they forgot to sharpen  second photo of the plaque with lettering.



Hector Davila



Re: ...of likely interest to some

daniele.distanio
 

Hi Gunnar,

thank you for sharing this.

I have to say, the "before" images looks too bad for originals. I don't have proof, but I strongly suspect a blur here. Let's have a look at the flower.

"Before":

and "After":

I tried an USM [500, 1,0px, 0] on the original and now I'm pretty sure this is no "before/after". Some light reflections on drops in the original are completely lost and it is not possible to recover them.

Seems pretty shady to me to handle data like that.

Cheers,

Daniele Di Stanio

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Gunnar K beexact@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:


...of likely interest to some

Gunnar K
 


New sharpening software....

https://www.projects-software.com/sharpen/sharpen-projects-professional-special-deal-luf

Gunnar Kullenberg
LA, CA


Re: Sign In Problem

Howard Smith
 

Good advice, Laurentiu.  Thank you for answering. Sometimes we can get in the habit of doing things without wondering why we do them. 

 

Howard

 

 

 

From: COLORTHEORY@... [mailto:COLORTHEORY@...]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 8:36 AM
To: COLORTHEORY@...
Subject: Re: [COLORTHEORY] Sign In Problem

 

 

When I can’t sign in, I usually give up.

It’s generally my fault, but sometimes there’s a glitch on the Internet. 

Like when Amazon’s cloud was hacked or dropped service somehow.

I don’t know how to update my login or if its even possible.

I had a different domain name and email address when I signed up.

I just bought Digitalis.ART

 

Good luck, and make sure you write names and passwords somewhere safe.

My memory isn’t as bad as it used to be, it’s worse : )

 

 


Re: Sign In Problem

Laurentiu Todie
 

When I can’t sign in, I usually give up.
It’s generally my fault, but sometimes there’s a glitch on the Internet. 
Like when Amazon’s cloud was hacked or dropped service somehow.
I don’t know how to update my login or if its even possible.
I had a different domain name and email address when I signed up.
I just bought Digitalis.ART

Good luck, and make sure you write names and passwords somewhere safe.
My memory isn’t as bad as it used to be, it’s worse : )


On Mar 9, 2017, at 12:50 PM, 'Howard Smith' drhobbes@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:


Tried to sign in to the Forum, but can’t get past the name and password questions.  Got a new code for access, but it didn’t work, either.  

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

Thanks.

 

Howard Smith 

(drhobbes@...)



Laurentiu Todie




Sign In Problem

Howard Smith
 

Tried to sign in to the Forum, but can’t get past the name and password questions.  Got a new code for access, but it didn’t work, either. 

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

Thanks.

 

Howard Smith

(drhobbes@...)


Re: Sharpening Methods

George Machen
 

On Mar 8, 2017, at 10:22 AM, 'Howard Smith' drhobbes@kc.rr.com [COLORTHEORY] wrote:

...For the benefit of those of us who are not as up to
date as others, could someone please post two or three
before and after sharpening images?...
This isn't exactly what Howard Smith had in mind, but it does serve to illustrate what I said in my message #30121 of Mar 7, 2017, 11:33 AM EST, about "an inherent defect of unsharp mask that sharpens edges that are already sharp and don't need it, making things look crunchy sooner than necessary when applying a heavier hand to get at what really needs sharpening."

Please download this small (< 50 KB) jpeg image from the [COLORTHEORY] files section:

<https://xa.yimg.com/df/COLORTHEORY/USM+gradient+wedge+test+image.jpg?token=3sAFCv_rAmVQkxszVHAsX3t_IGjVrRQp5Erf9YnHi0Tq13oeKfhqGjLL-VdfgRZst_-SQqGxdUjnS_ijxIm6IpOgeDcbGD4k6rznzKvBNdsHyyBUZhYYq562aYz1MH37W_OcTsinTwE&type=download>

...or:

http://bit.ly/2mJN7NU

...or go here and search for "USM gradient wedge test image.jpg":

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/COLORTHEORY/files

This image was constructed by creating a simple zero-to-100% gradient, cutting it in half at the midtone, then flipping & flopping one half to make an edge gradient from a strong edge on the left, constantly weakening, until no edge at all on the right. Then doing unsharp mask reveals the uneven application of the sharpening, which strengthens as the edge becomes more pronounced -- the opposite of what we want. The interesting thing is that it isn't the USM Amount that strengthens, but instead the Radius, and it still applies more sharpening where it's unwanted. This phenomenon is built-in to the mathematics of the common USM calculation, and unavoidable without intervention.

(This is only a simple demonstration, and doesn't illustrate more complex sharpening situations, such as when multiple object edges are closer to each other than the radius of the sharpening halos, which makes for weird interactions.)

--
George Machen


Sharpening Methods

Howard Smith
 

Recently there has been a renewed interest in sharpening techniques.  Some of them sound very exciting.  The problem for many Forum members is that, while we all follow Dan’s writings, not all of us have a subscription to Adobe’s CC programs, nor even a copy of Adobe’s discontinued CS6.

 

For the benefit of those of us who are not as up to date as others, could someone please post two or three before and after sharpening images? 

 

It’s not a matter of doubting all these accomplishments, but just hearing about things that are out of the reach of many of us can be very frustrating.  It would be nice to be able to see a demonstration of the superiority of some of these advances.  Then maybe the rest of us will be convinced enough to go ahead and subscribe to Adobe’s Photoshop CC so we can  have a better idea of what is being discussed.

 

 

Howard Smith

(drhobbes@...)

 

 


Re: Double USM 2

George Machen
 

Woops, in my immediately preceding message #30121 of Mar 7, 2017, 11:33 AM EST, I gave Dan's "reverse threshold" adjustment for the PPW panel's sharpening as, "lightening the halo map layer's shadow & pinning the highlights vicinity." In my haste of composing that message, I left out that it was for the dark halos map, and additionally that for the light halos map, the maneuver needs to be done oppositely (darkening the halo map layer's highlight & holding somewhere in the shadows).

- George Machen

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