Re: max values in Lab

onelistdrs

Thanks Kirk for link to B.J.Lindbloom data; and others that responded.

I have been absorbing info and decided best way for me to learn and remember was to make a chart/graph for ref.
I did, and will share it as a .pdf file in this forum. See my next post with link.

I use Lab every day. My goal was to determine easily, for any Lab set of values, is the resulting color in gamut for Lab? But I thought I'd also share what I found out and how to interpret the .pdf image.  (assuming I made no errors; please reply if you find anything that seems wrong.)

I plotted Lab colors "in gamut" (the edge and all inclusive values of "in gamut") for L values from L=10 to L=90, in successive layers with transparency to be able to see all at the same time.  When you open the .pdf file it may take a while to load and you may be able to see the layers 'build' in view (depending on your PDF viewer).
In or 'out of gamut' (OoG) is for Lab; does not mean in or out of gamut for the color mode such as sRGB or CMYK....that is another check.
For L=0 or L=100, all a,b is OoG. No value of a,b above 120 is in gamut and thus the chart stops at +-120 even tho there are values possible to 128.

What I found, generally, is that for dark colors (starting at L=10) moving to light colors (ending at L=90), the amount and color range of "in gamut" changes quite a bit. For dark colors, they are in gamut in the lower right (purple) quadrant and out of gamut elsewhere.

As L increases, say to L=50, in-gamut increases in area and shifts toward the upper-left (greenish) quadrant. As L increases more to L=70, the area continues large and shifting toward yellow. But at L=80 or L=90, the area 'in gamut' shrinks.

In opposite words, overall, areas in the lower left quadrant (teal) are mostly OoG all the time for values of a,b above -60; at lime green above +90, and for reds above (greater than) +80,-60.

How to use the chart: For any Lab value you want to check, find the L curve on the chart (or estimate between the 2 closest lines of L) and see if the a,b value for the L area (acceptable 'in-gamut areas' are filled with a pattern, and color coded matching the line colors) and see if they are within the in-gamut area.

For example, while doing a color change in Lab of an image and you see a color you might question, check the values.
e.g. for Lab = 50(L=50 line is black),60,-40  (lower right purple quadrant, between the L=80 magenta line and L=70 gold line) the Lab color is well within gamut.
e.g. for Lab = 30,-30,60   the color (greenish-yellow) is OoG in Lab.

My .pdf file is free to use but not to be used commercially and make money from the file itself.

As a separate learning "study" of the chart, start at 0 (center) for each colored bar (vertical, horizontal, 45 degree angle) and move out towards the chart perimeter colored frame, and see how the L lines encompass areas in and out of Lab gamut.
For example starting at 0 and moving along the +a color bar (b=0) --- L=90 and L=10 is OoG quickly (any a above 50), but L=30-70 is in gamut below a=80 and L= 40 or 50 or 60 is in gamut for a<95. Another way to view is there is a big jump from L=20 to 30  and from L=80 to 70.
Going up the +b color bar, OoG changes directly with L; low L = OoG, high L = in gamut for most any b value.

I'm sure there is much more to learn.

Doug Schafer

Re: An artificial second light source

john c.

It’s a common Hollywood cinematographer’s trick to use tungsten balanced film with tungsten lighting for the actors in the foreground which forces the darker daylight lit background to render dark blue. Of course they do the same with digital now. Artists have used the technique since the Renaissance. Back in the days when color printing was very expensive, savvy illustrators also made fairly effective use of optical illusion and persistence of vision to create the sensation of a third color while limited to two color press runs. Knowing how to take advantage of the limitations of human perception is part of the art.

Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [COLORTHEORY] An artificial second light source

Dan,

I may be using similar techniques but am not sure if the fall within the rules you are trying to develop.

My experience is limited to architecture, i.e buildings and interiors. Most often, I intensify or saturate the existing colors as deemed proper. Warming up the foreground, or cooling down the background, or both is another technique I use often, including the interiors.

When you discuss two different light sources, are they different in terms of color temperature or the direction? There is obviously one light source out there in the skies, and lighting food or products would require one main direction of light. In interior photography, accent lights may come for different directions so I do “create” them in post-processing, especially in travel photos. Reducing the effects of mixed lighting that you mentioned, is almost warranted in interiors.

Boris Feldblyum
www.bfcollection.net

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:50 AM, dmargulis DMargulis@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:
I’d like to know if anybody is using a technique similar to the following. I’ve been playing with it with occasional success and would be looking for rules that might suggest when it would be useful.

The idea came from my friend Chevreul, who was instructing painters on how they could create the illusion of two differing light sources in the same image. The typical example is when the painter is portraying a saint or other religious figure in the foreground. They often try to show golden light falling on the saint, but not elsewhere in the image.

We more commonly have the problem that the image already has two different light sources and we would like to get rid of them, as when an interior shot is yellow on one side and blue on the other. However, there is no reason that we couldn’t fake a second light source just like the painters did. If there’s a saint in the foreground, fine, we make a loose lasso selection of him, massively blur it so that no artificial-looking line will appear, and then use LAB curves or even Photo Filter to add golden light to the area.

The stuff that has looked promising to me either involves warming up the foreground, or cooling down the background. For example, in food shots the food in the foreground may look better by comparison if we make the background less pleasant. Many people desaturate the background somewhat, making it grayer, but I’m talking about, say, adding a source of green light, which is the last thing you want to impact food.

I know that using gradient masks in this way rather than some kind of lasso selection is fairly common, especially in video, but it never seems to work well unless the gradient happens to correspond fairly closely to the composition of the photo.

Dan Margulis

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Re: An artificial second light source

berdov

Dan,

I may be using similar techniques but am not sure if the fall within the rules you are trying to develop.

My experience is limited to architecture, i.e buildings and interiors. Most often, I intensify or saturate the existing colors as deemed proper. Warming up the foreground, or cooling down the background, or both is another technique I use often, including the interiors.

When you discuss two different light sources, are they different in terms of color temperature or the direction? There is obviously one light source out there in the skies, and lighting food or products would require one main direction of light. In interior photography, accent lights may come for different directions so I do “create” them in post-processing, especially in travel photos. Reducing the effects of mixed lighting that you mentioned, is almost warranted in interiors.

Boris Feldblyum
www.bfcollection.net

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:50 AM, dmargulis DMargulis@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:
I’d like to know if anybody is using a technique similar to the following. I’ve been playing with it with occasional success and would be looking for rules that might suggest when it would be useful.

The idea came from my friend Chevreul, who was instructing painters on how they could create the illusion of two differing light sources in the same image. The typical example is when the painter is portraying a saint or other religious figure in the foreground. They often try to show golden light falling on the saint, but not elsewhere in the image.

We more commonly have the problem that the image already has two different light sources and we would like to get rid of them, as when an interior shot is yellow on one side and blue on the other. However, there is no reason that we couldn’t fake a second light source just like the painters did. If there’s a saint in the foreground, fine, we make a loose lasso selection of him, massively blur it so that no artificial-looking line will appear, and then use LAB curves or even Photo Filter to add golden light to the area.

The stuff that has looked promising to me either involves warming up the foreground, or cooling down the background. For example, in food shots the food in the foreground may look better by comparison if we make the background less pleasant. Many people desaturate the background somewhat, making it grayer, but I’m talking about, say, adding a source of green light, which is the last thing you want to impact food.

I know that using gradient masks in this way rather than some kind of lasso selection is fairly common, especially in video, but it never seems to work well unless the gradient happens to correspond fairly closely to the composition of the photo.

Dan Margulis

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Randy Hoffner

After many years using PCs, I am getting acquainted with my new iMac, climbing a steep learning curve.  I have been trying unsuccessfully to load some curve presets into PS CC2015, and some camera profile presets into Camera Raw, permanently.  Can somebody tell me how to do that?  Thanks.

Re: current version

David

Thanks Hector.
David

Re: current version

Hector Davila

http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com/free-resources

The truth is, software doesn't automatically work on everyone's computer.
You need to make it work.

Hector Davila

On 11/7/2015 7:12 AM, djkessler@... [COLORTHEORY] wrote:

What is the current version (that will work with cs6) and where can I download it? I looked in the files section but it wasn't apparent to me where it lived.

Thanks,

David

current version

David

What is the current version (that will work with cs6) and where can I download it? I looked in the files section but it wasn't apparent to me where it lived.

Thanks,

David

An artificial second light source

Dan Margulis

I’d like to know if anybody is using a technique similar to the following. I’ve been playing with it with occasional success and would be looking for rules that might suggest when it would be useful.

The idea came from my friend Chevreul, who was instructing painters on how they could create the illusion of two differing light sources in the same image. The typical example is when the painter is portraying a saint or other religious figure in the foreground. They often try to show golden light falling on the saint, but not elsewhere in the image.

We more commonly have the problem that the image already has two different light sources and we would like to get rid of them, as when an interior shot is yellow on one side and blue on the other. However, there is no reason that we couldn’t fake a second light source just like the painters did. If there’s a saint in the foreground, fine, we make a loose lasso selection of him, massively blur it so that no artificial-looking line will appear, and then use LAB curves or even Photo Filter to add golden light to the area.

The stuff that has looked promising to me either involves warming up the foreground, or cooling down the background. For example, in food shots the food in the foreground may look better by comparison if we make the background less pleasant. Many people desaturate the background somewhat, making it grayer, but I’m talking about, say, adding a source of green light, which is the last thing you want to impact food.

I know that using gradient masks in this way rather than some kind of lasso selection is fairly common, especially in video, but it never seems to work well unless the gradient happens to correspond fairly closely to the composition of the photo.

Dan Margulis

Re: max values in Lab

Stephen Marsh

Dan Margulis: Dan Margulis - Applied Color Theory Archive - Color Correction

If you have the PPW panel installed, hit the COLOR button.

Regards,

Stephen Marsh

Re: max values in Lab

onelistdrs

My initial discovery (using the web site link, in reply above) is that I could make a chart, for each luminance value, an absolute safe gamut for any blue, yellow, magenta, or green....but the range would be too small because the other color range affects the single color acceptability. The full Lab color space must be considered. No single color range value is valuable alone.

For example,

checking an image Lab color of blue at L=30,

+b= 50 or less is OK but only for values of a = -60 to +70; because values of 'a' greater than +70 or less than -60 cause +b to become out of gamut.

For -b values from 0 to -80 , +a can be very large (+80 to 90) and remain in gamut, but -a is severely limited. For -a = 100; b must be less than -20 ( i.e. -20 to 0), but for a = -10; b only has to be -70 or less (i.e. -70 to 0). In-between the acceptable range for b values varies linearly.

So a full value chart really needs to be a 3D/3 axis/volume chart...easy to visualize, as many such images are available; but not easily used to assess/access acceptable Lab gamut numerical values. Google images: Lab gamut chart.

So to simplify, because a or b absolute values  greater than 70 are very uncommon and often out of gamut, I can use a subset of the full range (i.e. use values 0 to = - 80) to make a chart and feel safe. If I accept some extreme values at the edges of the chart ( such as anything in the range of = - 70 to 80) I can plot a set of simple L charts (i.e. lookup table) for any set of Lab number value  sets L,a,b  (e.g. 36,-16,23 which is an nice greenery green).

So I'm off to make excel charts and graphs....and if my simplification is inadequate, I'll make more detailed ones for myself and perhaps share here. Tho I'll search/Google more because such charts probably already exist.

Some of you may recall that in Oct 2013 I made a set of human skin color charts with acceptable Lab values expanding the range of values Dan made as a .pdf help file.
Making charts helps me to learn. If I can explain to myself and answer my own questions correctly, and test validity, then I am confident I know the info better.

Doug Schafer

---In colortheory@..., <ds-mail@...> wrote :

Wow, thanks for such good info....I'm off investigating and expect it may take a day or two to absorb the info.

Doug Schafer

Re: max values in Lab

onelistdrs

Wow, thanks for such good info....I'm off investigating and expect it may take a day or two to absorb the info.

Doug Schafer

Re: max values in Lab

Michael Jahn

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 9:11 AM, ds-mail@... [COLORTHEORY]  wrote:

If I am checking an image and I want to be sure I have not produced an impossible color to view (on a normal correct sRGB monitor) or to print (either home inkjet or commercial CMYK ink printer), how do I know if the colors are out of the realm of possibility?

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?LabGamutDisplayHelp.html

Scroll down to the bit that says "Integer Encoding of Lab"

Key point:

"
Therefore, all possible Lab colors cannot be encoded using this scheme. Even when 16-bit values are used instead of 8-bit values, the extra bits are used to make finer divisions between values, and are not used to extend the range of values"

This graphic might help you visualize the issue that has you a bit flummoxed

So, simply put, since you really can't define all LAB values in RGB or CMYK, I suppose you need to look st the very NEXT issue, as in "it all depends on WHAT RGB Working space - and what the destination profile might do to that particular RGB value.

Doug Schafer: Doug Schafer: My question stems more from either looking at an "a" or "b" curve/histogram or at  sampled color numerical values....can I look at the values and know I have not oversaturated and exceeded the color(s) to see or print?

Doug Schafer: Are my questions understandable and reasonable? Are there simple answers such as never exceed a single color value of 75? (+ or -).  Different for monitor view vs. print?

Jahn comments : It depends on the RGB Working space and the output profile ( assuming CMYK ) and what that CMYK print condition might be.

an IMPORTANT issue is that ALMOST 2/3 of LAB coding space is wasted on colors that do not actually exsit.

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?WorkingSpaceInfo.html

And, if your MONITOR is set up to SIMULATE what the PRINT CONDITION will do to it, then, your monitor will match the press sheet ( if you have set things up properly )

But ( my guess here ) is that you are NOT going to be printing to some CMYK Printing press, but instead, to some wide format device that might far exceed standard printing conditions such as SWOP 3,5 or GRACoL - to which one might say "since that is pretty much what all ICC profiles are designed to do, well, GOOD LUCK !

< wink >

So, well, even when i convert pure 255 R 0g and 0 b - to Lab, I my a will peg at 79 - moving it higher will have n eefect and dropping it to -128 will make it green, yes ?

Lab, unlike RGB and CMYK, is not really a color space.

Hope this helps, maybe it will not.

Respectfully,

Michael Jahn
1824 Garvin Avenue
Simi Valley, CA 93065
(805) 217-6741

Doug Schafer

Re: max values in Lab

Dan Margulis

Doug Schafer writes,

If I am checking an image and I want to be sure I have not produced an impossible color to view (on a normal correct sRGB monitor) or to print (either home inkjet or commercial CMYK ink printer), how do I know if the colors are out of the realm of possibility?

All methods of color management break down when they get close to the edges of the gamut, so you can’t rely on any automated warning. In any event, the warning won’t tell you whether you’re missing by a little bit (which presumably will make no difference) or by a lot, which could put you in deep doo-doo. And, in that last case, the screen preview will be highly suspect.

The general (and too easy) solution is to set the right half of the info palette to read LAB. Then do a trial conversion into the next colorspace and see whether the LAB values change significantly. If they do, Command-Z and reduce their intensity.

The tought part of this is figuring out what points to measure. It’s important to know at what darkness level each color can achieve its maximum intensity. A common problem for people doing shots of vegetation is that the discover that the basic green is printable, so they assume that as the greens get darker (and less saturated) they will also be printable. Not true; few output devices are capable of doing much with dark greens and so there can be some rather ugly transitions.

A couple of years ago I posted a useful tool that helps show where the gamut narrows:

Dan Margulis

Re: max values in Lab

Kirk Thibault

I should have added - once you use the evaluation images and the out-of-gamut indicator to figure out what the value of “safe” a and b ranges are for your device, you can then use the info palette or curves values to target and measure the a and b values in your image and compare those values to your determined safe range of values.

kirk thibault

On Nov 2, 2015, at 12:11 PM, ds-mail@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

This is a tough question to even configure/ask but I'll try.

Re: max values in Lab

Kirk Thibault

on Bruce Lindbloom’s website.  He has assembled a series of images that will help you evaluate the range of LAB colors, at a given L value, that are within a device’s gamut.  Just follow the instructions on the page.

What you will find is that, for a particular device profile (display or print/paper), as you progress through the range of L-value images your device (profile) will reveal limitations in its gamut relative to the reference images.  You can note the range of a and b values that are “safe” within the device profile and then convert those values (range limits) to a specific RGB/CMYK color space if necessary, if you want to know the RGB/CMYK equivalent for that color space.

A limitation of the Photoshop gamut warning is that it does not tell you how far out-of-gamut a particular value is relative to the device gamut.  A utility such as Color Think will give you a graphical representation of that data superimposed on the evaluation image.

kirk thibault

On Nov 2, 2015, at 12:11 PM, ds-mail@... [COLORTHEORY] <COLORTHEORY@...> wrote:

This is a tough question to even configure/ask but I'll try.

I have a read, and reviewed again, both Lab books from Dan. I was certain the answer was there, or in the PPW help file, but I have not found it.

If I am checking an image and I want to be sure I have not produced an impossible color to view (on a normal correct sRGB monitor) or to print (either home inkjet or commercial CMYK ink printer), how do I know if the colors are out of the realm of possibility?

Yes I know how to check for out-of-gamut and to see a "proof". Those are valuable, but fool proof?

My question stems more from either looking at an "a" or "b" curve/histogram or at  sampled color numerical values....can I look at the values and know I have not oversaturated and exceeded the color(s) to see or print?

For example an Lab "a" or "b" histogram, or curve, or value which exceeds +- 50 starts me worrying, more than 65 seems unrealistic, over 75 means trouble? Is there a single value for any Lab color that is "too much"?

If a Lab color histogram (a or b) ever shows peaks that exceed/gather/bump up against  the top of the chart, is that a sign of trouble? or just a bunch of pixels at that color?

For above, for now, I'm only thinking about a single color (green, magenta, blue, yellow) as I know a combination (explained in the books) such as blue+yellow can produce some impossible colors. Maybe I will ask about that later once I'm sure about individual color value maximums.

Are my questions understandable and reasonable? Are there simple answers such as never exceed a single color value of 75? (+ or -).  Different for monitor view vs. print?

Doug Schafer

max values in Lab

onelistdrs

This is a tough question to even configure/ask but I'll try.

I have a read, and reviewed again, both Lab books from Dan. I was certain the answer was there, or in the PPW help file, but I have not found it.

If I am checking an image and I want to be sure I have not produced an impossible color to view (on a normal correct sRGB monitor) or to print (either home inkjet or commercial CMYK ink printer), how do I know if the colors are out of the realm of possibility?

Yes I know how to check for out-of-gamut and to see a "proof". Those are valuable, but fool proof?

My question stems more from either looking at an "a" or "b" curve/histogram or at  sampled color numerical values....can I look at the values and know I have not oversaturated and exceeded the color(s) to see or print?

For example an Lab "a" or "b" histogram, or curve, or value which exceeds +- 50 starts me worrying, more than 65 seems unrealistic, over 75 means trouble? Is there a single value for any Lab color that is "too much"?

If a Lab color histogram (a or b) ever shows peaks that exceed/gather/bump up against  the top of the chart, is that a sign of trouble? or just a bunch of pixels at that color?

For above, for now, I'm only thinking about a single color (green, magenta, blue, yellow) as I know a combination (explained in the books) such as blue+yellow can produce some impossible colors. Maybe I will ask about that later once I'm sure about individual color value maximums.

Are my questions understandable and reasonable? Are there simple answers such as never exceed a single color value of 75? (+ or -).  Different for monitor view vs. print?

Doug Schafer

Re: ppw for lightroom?

Dan Margulis

David Kessler writes,

I have an old version of PPW but have been using Photoshop a lot less since Adobe went to the rental model. I've also been using Lightroom a lot more since then (albeit with some trepidation that they'll go rental with that too some day). I was wondering whether there was a version of PPW that would work with Lightroom.

As Doug says, it doesn’t support layers, channel blending, or actions, so there is no possibility of doing anything more in a PPW context than attempting to correct the initial color.

Dan Margulis

List Rules and Objectives

Dan Margulis

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MODERATION AND REJECTION OF POSTS
This list is moderated, currently by five persons. All posts must be approved by one of us (Darren Bernaerdt, Sterling Ledet, Stephen Marsh, J Walton, or your humble servant), before they are distributed to the group. We don't want to discriminate on the basis of content; if we feel that for some reason a restriction on posting is necessary we will make it known publicly (see below) before actually rejecting a message that a member has taken the time to post.

That said, we will reject the following types of message without prior warning. NOTE: If we reject a post, we send a message to the sender indicating why. If your post hasn't appeared, and you haven't gotten a rejection message, probably the message got lost in cyberspace.

1) Spam; press releases, product announcements or "classified advertising" from people who haven't participated in the list in at least six months or who are recent signups; form letters; posts from people who don't otherwise participate in the list referring us to private websites; posts from anyone referring us to links without a reasonably full explanation of what is to be found there; and posts from anyone referring us to websites that require payment or registration to view.

2) Messages that are not signed with a full name.

3) Messages that do not have an informative title, e.g. "No Subject" or "Digest #1234"

4) Messages that are exclusively in HTML, or that attempt to attach an image, PDF, or the like and then refer to it in text. (Such attachments are automatically deleted, so the post would make no sense).

5) Messages responding to messages that are extremely dated or that the rest of the list has not seen at all. Typically, this occurs when Party B replies to Party A offline, and Party A responds to the list.

6) Messages that would subject the group to an unreasonable amount of quoted material, such as reposting lengthy, unedited material from other sources, the attachment of an entire group digest rather than the single message being responded to, the attachment of a complete message which itself attached additional messages, or simply appending an entire lengthy message rather than snipping the specific material that is of interest.

7) Technical questions that the moderator is aware are simultaneously crossposted to other group(s). The moderator will generally not approve other types of simultaneous crossposts but may use discretion in exceptional cases.

8) Messages that contain a copyright notice or may present legal problems if posted to the group.

9) Messages that may be hoaxes.

10) Messages containing attempts at ethnic or sexual humor, whether or not there is other relevant content.

11) Other attempts at humor that the moderator doesn't think are funny and that contain no content relevant to an existing thread.

12) Messages that are derisive or dismissive of another member’s skills in photography or color correction. Constructive criticism is welcome but must be framed in a respectful fashion, even if the person being criticized is a beginner.

13) "Repeats" of recent posts hoping to get responses that the first ones did not.

14) Messages from persons who have been list members for less than six months or who have not posted to the list in the past six months, and which in the judgment of the moderator show a lack of understanding of what the list is about or which duplicate something that has been covered recently. Examples: questions like "how do I calibrate my monitor?"; messages of introduction to the list; questions on topics in which the list does not specialize, and questions on a topic about which a thread has just ended.

15) Messages that do not respond to an existing thread and have nothing to do with color or the purposes of this group, e.g. corrections of people's grammar, needless quibbling over terminology or political correctness, statements in support of some political cause, attempts to unsubscribe, virus warnings, or change of address notifications.

16) "Case Study" offerings--that is, showing us an image and asking for suggestions as to how to correct it. Such postings will be examined by a moderator who will make a determination as to whether the image would be of interest to the group. If it is, we will accept the post with thanks. If not, we'll decline it with, hopefully, no hard feelings. As a rule, we are not very interested in the repair of grossly defective images; we prefer to concentrate on more everyday types of problem.

MODERATION AND CENSORSHIP
As can be seen above, we do not wish to censor posts based on their content or to cause people to pull their punches in what they write. We are willing to have reasonably brief threads on almost any color-related topic. Intervention by a moderator to restrict discussion is rare. However, it may take place under the following circumstances.

1. If in the judgment of the moderators, a thread is going on too long, we will post publicly to the list and to all participants a request to bring it to a close. Our criteria in doing this may include: limited interest of the thread to the vast majority of the group; repetition of the same points over and over; participation only by a few members; or that there was a closely similar recent thread. Unless the list is being deluged, the moderators try to consult with one another before blocking a thread. Ordinarily we give the list 24 hours notice that a thread will be ending so that those interested may post their final thoughts on the subject. If the volume of posting is such that we don't wish to wait 24 hours before invoking a posting limit, some posts may be temporarily rejected with a note to the sender advising him that a hard limit may be imposed shortly and asking whether he wishes to repost the message under the circumstances. However, we will not block the post if it is resent.

2. Occasionally a thread has become so acid that a moderator posts a warning about civility, or about bringing in irrelevancies such as discussion of political events. In such cases the thread continues, but the list is on notice that offending posts are subject to rejection at the discretion of the moderators.

3. If in the moderator's judgment, a list member is being unduly unpleasant or personal in posted comments, he will send that person a complaint in private. (*Grossly* inappropriate posts will be rejected without warning.)

4. Today's web etiquette countenances certain acronyms (e.g. POS, FUBAR, SOL, BFD) where an off-color word is implied. As long as these words are implied and not spelled out there is no objection. In the interest of decorum, however, we ask members to refrain from undisguised use of locutions found on the commonly available "Seven Filthy Words" list.

5. We reserve the right to limit the sheer volume of posting allowed by any list member or by any interest group that is posting substantially the same type of material.

6. If in the moderator's judgment, a list member is posting material that is overly commercial in nature, he will send that person a complaint in private. (Note: this applies only to a person who already actively participates in the list. An overly commercial post from a nonparticipant will be rejected without warning.)

7. If the moderator feels that the proposed post is ambiguous (that is, that it may provoke needless requests for clarification by confused readers who don't understand what the post is attempting to say), he may temporarily reject it with a note to the sender asking for a rewrite.

8. If a message is submitted in a form that makes it unduly difficult to follow (e.g. long message in all caps; message in which one can't tell where quotes end and responses begin; using shorthand like "r u listening 2 me?") the moderator may reject it with a note to the sender asking that it be redone in a more legible form.

ARCHIVING
This group has existed since 2/99, but in late 12/00 it shifted servers to egroups, later yahoogroups. All yahoogroups messages are accessible to list members at
but naturally anything before 1/00 isn't there nor are a certain number of posts from the transition period.

From time to time, we post edited full threads, advertising free, at
There are currently around 300 such threads available. The most recent update was August, 2013.

THE MODERNCOLORWORKFLOW SITE
My book Modern Photoshop Color Workflow was released in March, 2013. In conjunction with it, we opened a new site, http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com, which has a variety of materials that might supplement the discussions of this list.

RE-USE OF POSTED MATERIAL
In today's information age, the assumption must be that comments posted to groups like this one are for public consumption, and may be freely quoted by others without further permission. Images referred to in group messages, whether posted to this group's photo section or posted on the web sites of others, are a different story. Such images are assumed to be copyrighted material, and no reuse is permissible without the consent of the owner.

AUTO-REPLIES

QUESTIONS AS TO APPROPRIATENESS
If you have doubts as to the propriety of posting something, please feel free to contact me or another moderator directly.

UNSUBSCRIBING and POSTING DIFFICULTIES
Instructions on how to unsubscribe are given at the bottom of each post. If you have any difficulty in either unsubscribing or in posting to the group, consider the possibility that you are no longer posting or receiving under the exact address with which you subscribed.

If you attempt to post and receive a message stating that, although you are a member, you are not permitted to post, it means that a moderator has manually disallowed your posting privileges. We do this to members who have sent spam (often the result of a virus) or who have set their mailbox to auto-reply to the group explaining that they are out of the office. If you get this message and wish your rights restored, contact me offline.

If you are attempting to change address, go to
and choose Edit My Membership. You will need your original Yahoogroups password; if you have forgotten it you can ask Yahoogroups to assign another. As this can be cumbersome, another possibility is to unsubscribe and then to resubscribe from the new address. The moderators cannot change your address manually.

Also, if your mailserver rejects a message, yahoogroups may assume your account is no longer active and discontinue the message flow. This has happened with several overseas accounts where there were server problems. To correct this, enter yahoogroups and set the "Reset" function for your address.

STERLING LEDET & ASSOCIATES
This list is sponsored by Sterling Ledet & Associates, an Internet and graphic arts training company with company-owned facilities in the Atlanta, Baltimore, Chicago,  Houston, San Diego and Washington, DC areas. For further information concerning its offerings, visit www.ledet.com or call 877-819-2665 (+1 770-414-5007 from outside U.S.)

Dan Margulis
Last revised 1 October 2015
Suggestions for revising this document are welcome.

Re: ppw for lightroom?

onelistdrs

My answer would be, no, never was, and won't be.....because PPW uses layers in Ps and LR does not have layers.

Since LR is gaining in popularity, maybe Dan et al might make a reduced/simplified version for LR, but I doubt it.

Let's let Dan reply, as he is the master.

Doug Schafer

ppw for lightroom?

David

I have an old version of PPW but have been using Photoshop a lot less since Adobe went to the rental model. I've also been using Lightroom a lot more since then (albeit with some trepidation that they'll go rental with that too some day). I was wondering whether there was a version of PPW that would work with Lightroom.

Thanks,

David

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