Date   

Re: Using PPW to enhance video - Am I the only one?

Jim Rconyahooti
 

After Effects does not have Lab or CMYK colorspace. Nor does it have the apply image command (although you can come up with an equivalent by a process of pre-comps and layers.)

The curves in AE do not have the targeted-adjustment tool.

My current endeavor is only to enhance video in Photoshop. For older digital video, I have been able to 'work some miracles' using Lab that are just not possible in RGB colorspace. Improving saturation, improving contrast and reducing noise can be done much better in Lab than in RGB.

Editing and any sound work still need to be done elsewhere.


Jim Arco


Re: Why does the Picture Postcard Workflow make images so much more attractive?

munkiboy
 

I think the images we're working on, and the finished PPW version do all cause perceptual effects, just as looking at the world does.

Some people recently were posting about how to deal with eye/brain compensation while actually working on an image, and how to try and avoid it.

In a lot of post production work that involves an image destined for print things are more apparent because the print can do even less of the colours and contrast that people want to have in an image. I'm no expert but there's a method where people reduce colour in parts of the image to make another area seem more colourful which is directly messing about with your perception.

It's hard to be sure what's really going on all of the time, I know there's been many advancements in the science of cognitive processes relating to vision. But, where the line is between actual and qualia is to most people unknown.

Dan neatly sidesteps these philosophical concerns by his simple mantra that should be repeated between each step of the process:

"Do I like it better?"

All the best,

-andy blundell

--- In colortheory@..., "ewstacy" <webb@...> wrote:
An often-cited reason for the improvement is that the camera doesn't see things the way the human visual system does. The thing that keeps coming back to me, though, is that it's the very same human visual system that looks at the photos. Why is it that perceptual effects like simultaneous contrast apply to the world but not to an image of the world?
Similarly, I wonder to what extent the success of Dan's color correction approach is really a embedding of perceptual effects into the image because they can't be effectively created by the medium. Essentially, I'm suggesting that in some cases, the PPW compensates for the medium's inability to create certain perceptual phenomena by adding to the image the phenomenal effects that would usually be produced by the human visual system.

Is anyone aware of any scientific investigation of the issues? Why does the PPW make images so much more attractive?

--Webb Stacy

P.S. Full disclosure--I am a cognitive scientist who has a long-time interest in the workings of the human visual system.


Re: Retouching services for *how* much?

munkiboy
 

Hey, I'll click auto-tone for a dollar a time, in fact I'll do it for 80 cents.

IMO very many small businesses have been using similar services but without cloud for years. In the UK you can have your little ebay type product shot badly cut out for <£10 a go with the magic wand tool and loads of aliasing round the edges.

If you look on ebay or Amazon you'll see tons of poorly executed images that are companies selling products. So people do and will use these services.

My clients choose me for a nicer image, Dan's clients pick him for an amazing image.

I think there's room for everyone.

All the best,

-andy blundell

Is it an opportunity? Probably not for working with these people, who will want their own cut of these very low prices. But we are seeing a transition in our field from a time when most of us were supported by companies who would pay very high prices for work on a single, very important image, to a scenario where people wish to publish many images and are looking for a reasonable price/quality relation.
Dan Margulis




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Gradients and parametric Curves

Kenneth Harris
 

Can you elaborate on how to create & use these curve?

Andy Adams
Hello,

The OP was about parametric curves potential forensic use:

More on the project (with illustration, examples, etc.) at this page:
http://bit.ly/W3lPxI
Barranca's first curve looked usable, but what you want the curve to reach full amplitude on each cycle. Simply drop another 16 or so points on the line, more or less evenly spaced, and push them to the top and the bottom alternately. Save the curve. Load the curve to curve to check a file. The curve is for previewing only. Write data with it, and the result is ... artistic.

There might be some confusion here on using curves. Just because you load a curve into an adjustment layer doesn't mean you have to write it into your file. Just layer mask it out and let it float. It's useful for checking edges on large soft masks for banding.

There is probably a way to do this using a simpler curve with a modality (difference or exclusion), but I've never had a need to explore.

Ken Harris


Re: Retouching services for *how* much?

Laurentiu Todie
 

On Mar 7, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Dan Margulis wrote:

In today's economy, companies are desperate to reduce head-count and might not mind the presumed slight loss in quality. And to that extent, of couse, it is a threat.

Dan Margulis


In yesteryears companies were paying $800/hour for photo retouching.
I know that the quality went down since, when I see posters banding in the 3/4 tones and losing saturation.
Yes, the clients do not care or see it anymore and often enough it isn't there.

Laurentiu Todie
lt@...


Re: What causes this blotching?

Laurentiu Todie
 

On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:01 PM, Michael Jahn wrote:


We would make color separations, and we would wet etch - that is, we would
pull a proof, we would paint or pour an acid on a positive film to make
dots smaller, or make dots larger in an area by doing the same with a
negative. We would stop the processs by washing it with water, using a hair
dryer, then examining it with a loupe.

later on - for 500,000.00 - you could by a scitex Imager. - that is - in
the late 70's early 80s
In the seventies, before Chromacomp (Scitex came later) there was Haseltine, a scanner/TV like device to preview print from 4/c negatives.
Photoshop was mimicking color separators before it did photographers, twenty years later.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/scitex-corporation-ltd-history/

where we scanned transparencies and did "photoshop" like things ( before
Photoshop existed )

Respectfully,

*Michael Jahn*
1824 Garvin Avenue
Simi Valley, CA 93065
*(805) 217-6741
*

<http://www.composeusa.com>



Laurentiu Todie
lt@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: What causes this blotching?

Laurentiu Todie
 

Thank you for your service to color!

I think that OCD is something we have from the start or induce it into ourselves when choosing an activity that involves craft.
It can be a respectable disorder if we keep it in check.

On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:01 PM, John Castronovo wrote:

A good custom lab technician could look at a negative and tell within
seconds what corrections it would need without even having to make a print
and be nearly spot on over 90 percent of the time. It's a lost art now but
it's nice to finally get the appreciation we deserved, albeit a decade or
two after the fact! :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Hector_APR
With all that dust in the air, how could you print from a negative?
Cleaning negatives and lenses is like having an OCD problem.

I don't know how 'color photos' before the digital age of computers
were....color corrected.

Laurentiu Todie
lt@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


The cover of Dan Margulis new book!

Hector Davila
 

I like the cover of Dan's new book!!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Photoshop-Color-Workflow-Quartertone/dp/0988280809/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1362722841&sr=8-6&keywords=dan+margulis



Modern Photoshop Color Workflow - The Quartertone Quandary, the PPW,
and Other Ideas for Speedy Image Enhancement


It's got a picture of Dan on the cover....the tiger.


Hector Davila


Re: Gradients and parametric Curves

marshyswamp71 <samarsh@...>
 

Does anybody remember the short lived Mac only Binuscan Photo Retouch Pro app? It had a feature called "B-X-Ray" that was a grayscale preview mode that used some sort of inversion/solarization effect to "highlight" flaws in an image. It was as fast as a softproof preview keystroke toggle, so it was not doing anything very complex in RAM/CPU/GPU terms.


Stephen Marsh

--- In colortheory@..., "dacolorman" <dacolorman@...> wrote:

Ken Harris wrote:

In the 90s we had a similar kind of curve on Quantel Paintboxes. Parabolic, 0-255, maybe 8 cycles IIRC. It was used to check for problems on the drum scans. We aped it in photoshop, also to check scans. I still use it, on every file, for the same reason: forensic.

Some of my work is pick-up from other retouchers, and a 10 cycle parabolic shows compositing errors and changes in structure/grain nicely.
Such curves make easy work of finding dust spots and condensation on digital sensors.
They will also show problems on digital backs. Some backs grid, others quarter at higher ISOs.
It's best to foreknow and fix these kinds of problems before you start working.

Although it produces a similar look, the spectrum gradient is not nearly as effective for these purposes.
Can you elaborate on how to create & use these curve?

Andy Adams


Re: What causes this blotching?

dbernaerdt
 

Another difference in this digital age is that the dust is on every photo until you clean the sensor. In the "good old days", a piece of dust landing on your unexposed film would be gone when you advanced to the next frame.

Darren Bernaerdt

On 2013-03-07, at 2:30 PM, Hector_APR <amerphoto@...> wrote:
I'm surprised in this digital age photographers are still
having...'dust problems'. Dust was the biggest enemy of photographers in
the past. It created a 'spotting industry'.
With all that dust in the air, how could you print from a negative?
Cleaning negatives and lenses is like having an OCD problem.

I don't know how 'color photos' before the digital age of computers
were....color corrected.

Hector Davila


Re: PPW Panel Documentation

Kevin Stecyk
 

As a Windows user, I am going to take the other side of Mike's comment.

By now, I am used to seeing Mac option for Windows's alt. I don't even notice it any longer. As opposed to having everything spelled out, I much prefer less clutter.

Most or all users who read Dan's books or use his PPW process will have been exposed to Mac terminology before.


This is not a big issue for me one way or other.

Best regards,
Kevin


Michael Demyan wrote on Thursday, March 7, 2013:


One other consideration - for the few of us using Windows, could you
insert '(alt)' after the 'option' key press.


Re: Gradients and parametric Curves

Andy Adams
 

Ken Harris wrote:

In the 90s we had a similar kind of curve on Quantel Paintboxes. Parabolic, 0-255, maybe 8 cycles IIRC. It was used to check for problems on the drum scans. We aped it in photoshop, also to check scans. I still use it, on every file, for the same reason: forensic.

Some of my work is pick-up from other retouchers, and a 10 cycle parabolic shows compositing errors and changes in structure/grain nicely.
Such curves make easy work of finding dust spots and condensation on digital sensors.
They will also show problems on digital backs. Some backs grid, others quarter at higher ISOs.
It's best to foreknow and fix these kinds of problems before you start working.

Although it produces a similar look, the spectrum gradient is not nearly as effective for these purposes.
Can you elaborate on how to create & use these curve?

Andy Adams


Why does the Picture Postcard Workflow make images so much more attractive?

ewstacy
 

I am somewhat new to the Picture Postcard Workflow, but have watched Dan's videos, have worked my way through his Lab color book, have begun Professional Photoshop 5th Edition, and have practiced the techniques on maybe a hundred images, with good results more often than not. To me, there is no doubt that these techniques can make the images more attractive, sometimes spectacularly so.

An often-cited reason for the improvement is that the camera doesn't see things the way the human visual system does. The thing that keeps coming back to me, though, is that it's the very same human visual system that looks at the photos. Why is it that perceptual effects like simultaneous contrast apply to the world but not to an image of the world?

Immersion in the environment may be one explanation, especially if we're talking about something like chromatic adaptation. But a simple demonstration that the surrounding color strongly influences our judgments of a central gray square's color is in every textbook on sensation and perception, and it's effective even though the reader isn't immersed in a corresponding real-world situation.

I'm starting to think that the medium might have something to do with it. A friend of mine who provides visuals for high-end aircraft simulators was once asked to produce the glare of the setting sun. Trouble was, simulator display technology can't get bright enough. What he did instead was to have the graphics system reproduce the human experience of glare. When you look at it, you experience glare, not realizing that it's the graphics system and not the human visual system that is creating the effect.

Similarly, I wonder to what extent the success of Dan's color correction approach is really a embedding of perceptual effects into the image because they can't be effectively created by the medium. Essentially, I'm suggesting that in some cases, the PPW compensates for the medium's inability to create certain perceptual phenomena by adding to the image the phenomenal effects that would usually be produced by the human visual system.

Is anyone aware of any scientific investigation of the issues? Why does the PPW make images so much more attractive?

--Webb Stacy

P.S. Full disclosure--I am a cognitive scientist who has a long-time interest in the workings of the human visual system.


Re: Retouching services for *how* much?

Henry Davis
 

A threat? Nah, they could be offering to do it for free - this
economy or some other.

Henry

On Mar 7, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Dan Margulis wrote:
<Snip>

I do agree with the correspondent that some if not many businesses
would go that route. In today's economy, companies are desperate to
reduce head-count and might not mind the presumed slight loss in
quality. And to that extent, of couse, it is a threat.


Re: PPW Panel Documentation

Michael Demyan <mdemyan@...>
 

Hi Dan:

One other consideration - for the few of us using Windows, could you
insert '(alt)' after the 'option' key press.

Thanks,
Mike

On 3/4/2013 12:40 PM, Dan Margulis wrote:

Those who have been experimenting with the beta version of v3 of the
PPW panel know that its supplied documentation was never updated to
reflect the new features, because we did not have time to incorporate
the new information before releasing the beta.

We now have updated all 11 of the PDF documentation files, some
extensively, and they will be included in the final release. I see no
point on making all these PDFs available now; however one of them is
completely new, so I will put it out for comment. If somebody catches
any error by Friday, we'll be able to incorporate it into the final
release.

This PDF is about the combined MMM + CB action, including its new MMM
Saturation option and the new options window. It concentrates on a
single image of the famous Washington cherry blossoms. As those of you
who have seen them up close know, they are a delicate pink that is
very difficult to reproduce on paper, therefore a careful accentuation
of the color is imperative.

The tentative PDF is posted in our Files section,

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colortheory/files/

Title: MMM-CB

Comments and suggestions can be sent to me offline as well as to the list.

Thanks for any feedback.

Dan Margulis


Re: Retouching services for *how* much?

Hector Davila
 

I've seen those type of companies come and go through the years..
they seem to be...inexperienced...you know what I mean.

To put it clearly, they don't have an understanding of the market.

Just look at their website and see for yourself:
https://repixl.com/

Hector Davila

On 3/7/2013 4:55 PM, Dan Margulis wrote:

Offline, a list member sent me this:

From:
Date: March 4, 2013 4:31:37 AM PST
To: Dan Margulis
Subject: Repixl Launches Its Photo Retouching-As-A-Service

Hi Dan...

Another blow or an opportunity for professionals? Thought your list
might like (or dislike) to see this ...

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/04/repixl/
Also take a look at their site -- the examples look like many NAPP
tutorials ... Seems to me that many businesses might go this route for
their images ...

The site he refers to is this:
https://repixl.com/about-repixl

The basic idea is that this service seems to be aimed at consumers and
small businesses; it will take care of setting up galleries, sharing,
and whatnot. It will also color-correct, 24-hour turnaround 24/7, for
prices that range roughly from $1-$10/image with an upfront quotation,
although it is not clear how the price would be determined.

My reaction is that these corrections are likely being outsourced to
countries where wages are a fraction of those in Europe or North
America. And why not? Transmission costs are nil, and there are plenty
of skilled people now in such countries.

Is it a blow? If so, it shouldn't be; we can hardly expect competitors
to refuse the advantages of modern technology to produce a good
product at a low price.

Is it an opportunity? Probably not for working with these people, who
will want their own cut of these very low prices. But we are seeing a
transition in our field from a time when most of us were supported by
companies who would pay very high prices for work on a single, very
important image, to a scenario where people wish to publish many
images and are looking for a reasonable price/quality relation.

I do agree with the correspondent that some if not many businesses
would go that route. In today's economy, companies are desperate to
reduce head-count and might not mind the presumed slight loss in
quality. And to that extent, of couse, it is a threat.

Dan Margulis




Re: What causes this blotching?

Michael Jahn
 

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Hector_APR <amerphoto@...> wrote:

**


I don't know how 'color photos' before the digital age of computers
were....color corrected.
Well, I am old enough to tell you.

If there was a large budget - we did dye transfers -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dye-transfer_process

We airbrushed.

We used Durst Enlargers - they had heads that lets us 'tune' the exposure..

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=675737

We would make color separations, and we would wet etch - that is, we would
pull a proof, we would paint or pour an acid on a positive film to make
dots smaller, or make dots larger in an area by doing the same with a
negative. We would stop the processs by washing it with water, using a hair
dryer, then examining it with a loupe.

later on - for 500,000.00 - you could by a scitex Imager. - that is - in
the late 70's early 80s

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/scitex-corporation-ltd-history/

where we scanned transparencies and did "photoshop" like things ( before
Photoshop existed )


Respectfully,

*Michael Jahn*
1824 Garvin Avenue
Simi Valley, CA 93065
*(805) 217-6741
*

<http://www.composeusa.com>


Re: What causes this blotching?

john c.
 

A good custom lab technician could look at a negative and tell within seconds what corrections it would need without even having to make a print and be nearly spot on over 90 percent of the time. It's a lost art now but it's nice to finally get the appreciation we deserved, albeit a decade or two after the fact! :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Hector_APR
With all that dust in the air, how could you print from a negative?
Cleaning negatives and lenses is like having an OCD problem.

I don't know how 'color photos' before the digital age of computers
were....color corrected.


Retouching services for *how* much?

Dan Margulis
 

Offline, a list member sent me this:

From:
Date: March 4, 2013 4:31:37 AM PST
To: Dan Margulis
Subject: Repixl Launches Its Photo Retouching-As-A-Service

Hi Dan...

Another blow or an opportunity for professionals? Thought your list might like (or dislike) to see this ...

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/04/repixl/
Also take a look at their site -- the examples look like many NAPP tutorials ... Seems to me that many businesses might go this route for their images ...
The site he refers to is this:
https://repixl.com/about-repixl

The basic idea is that this service seems to be aimed at consumers and small businesses; it will take care of setting up galleries, sharing, and whatnot. It will also color-correct, 24-hour turnaround 24/7, for prices that range roughly from $1-$10/image with an upfront quotation, although it is not clear how the price would be determined.

My reaction is that these corrections are likely being outsourced to countries where wages are a fraction of those in Europe or North America. And why not? Transmission costs are nil, and there are plenty of skilled people now in such countries.

Is it a blow? If so, it shouldn't be; we can hardly expect competitors to refuse the advantages of modern technology to produce a good product at a low price.

Is it an opportunity? Probably not for working with these people, who will want their own cut of these very low prices. But we are seeing a transition in our field from a time when most of us were supported by companies who would pay very high prices for work on a single, very important image, to a scenario where people wish to publish many images and are looking for a reasonable price/quality relation.

I do agree with the correspondent that some if not many businesses would go that route. In today's economy, companies are desperate to reduce head-count and might not mind the presumed slight loss in quality. And to that extent, of couse, it is a threat.

Dan Margulis


Re: What causes this blotching?

Chuck Gierhart <chuck.gierhart@...>
 

Prints were nothing compared to slides. You had to hit the exposure within ½
stop and know your craft well enough that you could color correct with
filters as you shot.



No, I don’t miss those days J



Chuck Gierhart



From: colortheory@... [mailto:colortheory@...] On
Behalf Of Hector_APR
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 4:31 PM
To: colortheory@...
Subject: Re: [colortheory] What causes this blotching?
Importance: High





I'm surprised in this digital age photographers are still
having...'dust problems'. Dust was the biggest enemy of photographers in
the past. It created a 'spotting industry'.
With all that dust in the air, how could you print from a negative?
Cleaning negatives and lenses is like having an OCD problem.

I don't know how 'color photos' before the digital age of computers
were....color corrected.

Hector Davila

On 3/6/2013 11:14 AM, Nick wrote:

To add to the comments, if you really want to see how dirty your
sensor is, stop down to say f16 and do a slow shutter speed pan across
a fairly plain background, the resulting motion blur will separate the
background from the spots and reveal the full horror of what is on
your sensor.

Nick Tresidder

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

7821 - 7840 of 33563