Date   

Re: The list's past and present: Apple improves its product

Kenneth Harris
 

This brings me back to a very traumatic period, coming in everyday for about a year wondering it would be our last day on a mac, knowing full well how spastic the tablet/interface was on the windows PS.  
Vis-a-vis the initial versions of inDesign, from my pre-press point of view, the first versions just acted like pagemaker in new clothes, which was disappointing, because from about 95 to 00 the biggest changes to QX were their in poorly implemented anti-piracy coding, which made it increasingly unstable, and because they left some kind of cookie on the network when it crashed, it required restarting hubs to clear before QX would launch again, and we were forced to choose whether to kill network sends to the RIPs (at a blazing 14megs/min) or not work in QX.  It was a very abusive relationship.  To this day, on the rare occasions I'm replacing FPO images in inDesign, I'm still thinking how much faster it was to do it in Quark.  Then I remember how much I came to hate Quark Inc.

Ken Harris


Re: The list's past and present: Apple improves its product

John M. Henry
 

As printer  I’m on another list of 500 others, we are all looking very closely at affinity products.  In my office we are going to that for all but our two designers. The rest of the staff no longer needs Abobe outside of acrobat pro. They have anything from CS4-6 and will never need more, as we go with affinity. We only keep one seat now of CC for our creative and customer work.  Most for the panel in PS and prepress plug ins we have for Acrobat, that there is no substitute for.  Thanks for making me feel of my 60 years today as this all seems so much less time than 20 years ago. BTW I still miss my 840av, photoshop 3 (with scanprep Pro) and Quark, that set up  screamed in its day.

 

What a killer app their photo would be with a Panel like  workflow integrated.  

 

30% off sale + this announced from them

in other news…

our apps are now fully optimized for the next generation of Mac

Ready to go on Apple’s Big Sur and primed to deliver superfast performance on Macs with M1 chips, our latest 1.8.6 update to the macOS versions of our apps means huge performance gains.

 

 

 

 

John M. Henry

 

Speedway Press Mitchell Printing & Mailing Inc. The Phoenix Press

1 Burkle Street

Oswego NY 13126

315-343-3531

 

Founding Board Member National Print Owners Association


The list's past and present: Apple improves its product

Dan Margulis
 


In the last years of the twentieth century, which is when the magazines I’m currently archiving appeared, Apple Computer was on death’s door. It had been run into the ground by three CEOs who were marketers, not technical people. Steve Jobs had been purged. Prices were too high, features disappointing, and the operating system beginning to look antique.

How bad was it? Well, Microsoft thought, probably correctly, that having Apple as a weak competitor would be better than having no competitor at all and being a convenient target for anti-monopoly legislation. Adobe thought, probably correctly, that it might not do well in a world controlled by Microsoft. So both companies took various under-the-radar measures to try to prop Apple up, right as Apple was attempting to talk us into turning in our ancient System 9 in favor of the great unknown of OS X.

Which brings us to the question brought up in the thread started by Davide Barranca. Here in 2020, Apple has announced new hardware that eventually obsoletes various extensions, such as the PPW panel. It’s not clear how anxious the market is to adopt it. What is Adobe’s responsibility here?

The same question, more or less, faced Adobe back then. Its response was to release an unprecedented “public beta” of Photoshop that ran much faster on the new OS. In this way, it hoped to give a boost to the transition, knowing that its action would make Apple very grateful.

The same question also faced Quark back then. And back then, QuarkXPress had the same position among page-makeup professionals that Photoshop does today among imaging pros: about 95 percent of the market. Adobe was getting ready to launch InDesign; its then-current product, PageMaker, was actually better than Quark but the forces of inertia remembered how bad it was several years back, and wouldn’t buy it. Adobe introduced InDesign as its “Quark-killer”, to which I retorted in print that it was like introducing a fly and calling it a spider-killer. I said that the only thing that could kill Quark was Quark itself.

Quark immediately commenced to do just that. First, it decided to exploit its near-monopoly position by holding Apple for ransom. It demanded that Apple pay it to develop the software for OS X. When Apple would not do so, to teach them a lesson Quark’s next release could only be run on the classic Apple OS.

Also, previous versions of Quark understandably had almost nothing pertaining to the web or cross-media. Quark knew it had to do something about it, but decided that we should pay for it. So, the cross-media/web stuff was a $400 extension.  Counting this, they desired to charge about $1,300 (Y2K dollars) for a single-seat license whereas Adobe asked around $700 for an InDesign two-seater.

In 2002, Quark finally released an OS X-compatible version, with web capabilities built in. Even then, it was not totally predictable that InDesign would take over. Changing vendors for a critical piece of complicated software is very challenging. But Quark’s customer relations were disastrous. In 2004, I wrote,

I would really like to see Quark succeed, for the unselfish reason that I dislike seeing Adobe become preeminent in yet another application and for the selfish one that I have been a Quark user for 15 years and am really not looking forward to retraining myself on InDesign. If Quark would give me even the slightest reason to continue supporting it, I would gladly do so.

It hasn’t. I can’t.

Four months later, the parent company of my magazine made the same decision not just for us, but for its other 40 or so titles. They had been waiting for the Quark update before switching everything over to OS X. They had assumed that in view of the high cost of retraining everyone on InDesign, they had no real choice. 

That’s what Quark thought, too, and told our company so in just those words, after putting them through hoops just to be favored with an audience with somebody in Quark management. Hat in hand, my superior suggested that, since around 400 seats were involved, Quark might wish to quote us something less than the suggested retail price. No way, came the response. 400 seats is nothing to us. Full price, times 400. 

Adobe, meanwhile, offered 400 new installs of InDesign, Photoshop, Acrobat, and Illustrator as a package for less than Quark wanted for its one-product upgrade. 

From time to time people suggest that Photoshop might go the way of Quark, possibly as a history-repeats-itself deal with respect to the new Apple hardware. That one is easy to predict, IMHO. The cases are too different. Twenty years ago Apple’s very survival was in doubt; today it is all-powerful And, although some of us have negative views about Adobe, it’s nowhere close to the visceral hatred we had for Quark. If we make the decision to go elsewhere, it will not be because we are so angry with Adobe that we feel the need to teach them a lesson.

So, most developers are simply going to follow Apple’s lead, though some may not think it’s worth the bother to rewrite everything. If enough of them feel that way, then sure, some people may turn away from Photoshop. Affinity Photo is a worthy competitor and I assume that others are pretty good, too. The main reason I don’t migrate is the availability of the PPW panel and possibly others.

But, it’s only a prediction. And I’ll close these reminiscences with another, taken from the “Just In” news section of Electronic Publishing, March 1997:

After off-and-on reports of Apple’s interest in the Be operating system, the company finally put all rumors to rest with its announcement of the acquisition of NeXT Software. For the $400 million it spent, not only does Apple get the NeXT technology, but it also gets Steve Jobs, CEO of NeXT and one of the co-founders and pioneers of Apple Computer. Opinion on the implications of this move swings both ways. Some industry experts speculate that the merger of the NeXT and Apple technologies will be the salvation that Apple needs in light of its recent diminished performance and customer loyalty. Others fear that Apple will develop an operating system lacking backward compatibility, thereby effectively rendering all existing Mac software useless, and further alienating customers.

I didn’t write that, but if anybody had asked me then I would gladly have signed off on it. It really could have gone either way. We’re much better off, IMHO, that it turned out the way it did.

Predictions are notoriously difficult. Discussing them is one good function of user lists. That’s why, 21 years ago, we decided to launch this one. It was a good prediction.

Dan



The list's past: on predictions

Dan Margulis
 

We know that those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them, and since we have had threads on the list’s future and present, let me comment a bit on its past, because it’s relevant to what we have just been discussing.

I have been trying to downsize by getting rid of all my magazines, scanning my own writings for archiving. Right now I’m in the late 1990s, which was a truly pivotal time in our field, more so even than today. It teaches us a lot about what’s predictable and what isn’t. Which bears on the current threads about the rapid decline in our field (predictable) and also on the question of Adobe’s responsibility to keep up with Apple (dubious).

By the late 1990s it was obvious that “desktop publishing” had replaced the old dedicated prepress systems, but a many other things weren’t so obvious. The clear consensus of writers other than myself at my magazine, Electronic Publishing, was that

*PDF, despite a lack of adoption now, was going to take over as the standard output method. (Right!)
*Hexachrome printing (adding green and orange inks to CMYK) was going to get a big market share. (Wrong!)
*On-demand printing was going to become a huge player (Absolutely!), wherefore
*Jobs would become much smaller and more targeted to specific audiences (Right!)
*Complicated color management systems would become mandatory (Wrong!)
*There would be a vast increase in large-format printing (Right!)

Myself, I got the last one wrong, but my predictions on the first five were correct.

Note that all these points related to printing, not photography or the web. Perhaps that’s why there was a consensus, right or wrong. On issues of more direct concern to us, there was a split.

*Are digital cameras ever going to replace film altogether?
*Is the web ever going to be suitable for hosting high-res images?

Now in fairness, some of the naysaying may have been to please advertisers. Film-based camera vendors were saying they were in no danger from digital. Printer vendors wanted everyone to have an expensive photo-quality printer at home, and feared online services that could do the job more cheaply. Still, some credible people were saying that digicam quality would never improve enough to match the quality of “real” cameras, and that internet bandwidth would never get much faster than the dial-up speeds then the norm.

How to avoid such delusions? Remember three rules:

*Technology gets better. We did have an internet, and digital cameras, and artificial color-correction intelligence back then, but they were ludicrously primitive compared to what we have today.

*It also gets cheaper. The prices being advertised in the magazine were breathtaking, particularly for hard disk storage, which cost around 300 times as much then as it does today.

*Convenience trumps quality. Digicams of 20 years ago were so pitiful that they couldn’t be considered for professional shots of anything that moved. But as soon as that changed, they took over rapidly, even before they really had the quality of a decent film camera.

These considerations explain why the recent collapse of the imaging industry was quite predictable. At the low end, everything is vastly better than it was when compared to “professional” quality. Paco just pointed out one example (artificial correction intelligence). And the increased bandwidth of the web makes it possible for us to work at home instead of in large plants.

Cheap, too. The computers that typical consumers used back then were too weak for serious graphics work. Based on advertising in these magazines, I’d say that a halfway decent production system, including a reasonably powerful computer, extra RAM, plenty of hard disk space, a camera, scanner and color printer, etc., would have been around $25,000 in today’s money. Today, these capabilities are routine without laying out anything extra; any housewife probably has already has the necessary equipment.

Speaking of already having the necessary equipment, we all carry smartphones. They all have fairly good cameras. A “real” camera has many advantages, but the huge disadvantage that you have to carry it around. So only the most serious photographer now does so.

These, then, are the trends in, say, the last decade. Huge incentives to shift away from “professional” tools. No more need to have your work done by somebody able to afford appropriate equipment. And much improved results for the less skilled do-it-yourselfers. Is it any surprise that the industry collapsed—as some of us predicted?

In a second thread I will discuss something rather less predictable, having to do with the thread started by Davide Barranca. Apple Computer has announced new hardware that will obsolete some of the things we currently use. What should software developers do? Is history about to repeat itself?

Dan


List Rules and Objectives

Dan Margulis
 

Applied Color Theory list
General Description and Rules
(This document is posted monthly)


OBJECTIVE
The objective of this list is to exchange information that may benefit those who have taken or are considering taking my Applied Color Theory courses, or who are interested in techniques covered in my books, plus related topics. This roughly comprises color correction and other methods that aim at creating satisfactory images.

ANONYMOUS POSTS PROHIBITED
Our tradition is that all messages to this group must be signed with the member's full name. First names only or "handles" are not acceptable, nor is quoting an anonymous third party. We request that you configure groups.io to include your full name automatically as the sender of any message. That will insure that each post will have your name at the top and make it unnecessary for you to sign the post. If you don’t do this, you risk having your posts rejected or having your moderation status changed if you forget to add your signature.

To implement this, find whatever your current name is in the upper right of the groups.io site, click/hold and choose your Account settings. Then, on the left side, click Identity. On the resulting screen choose Account Profile: Edit. On the next screen change Display Name to your own full name, followed by Update Account Profile.

Alternatively, if you are using other groups.io groups, you can create a signature line that will apply to everything you post.

There are certain valid reasons why a list member might wish to avoid signing his name. For example, the late Ralph Adam Fine was an appeals court judge. He had to be exceedingly cautious about anything he posted, therefore he normally went through me. Others have been granted anonymity because what they posted reflected badly on a boss or a client. 

In such cases, please forward the message to me and I will post it if appropriate with a note of explanation and I will, if appropriate, post it the name deleted. If a person has been granted anonymity, I always use “he” on second reference, regardless of the poster’s actual gender. Persons who have been granted anonymity will not be permitted to attack other list members by name. 

DEADLINE IN TWO WEEKS: THE END OF YAHOOGROUPS
Yahoogroups, which hosted us between 2000 and 2019, will cease to exist on 15 December. All group information has theoretically been copied to our current host, groups.io, so I don’t think there’s any reason for a group member to need to access yahoogroups. Still, to be on the safe side, I call attention to the deadline.

VOLUNTARY DONATIONS
Testing of the donation feature of groups.io has been completed and I will shortly announce a structure whereby those members who wish to contribute to the costs of group upkeep can do so.

GROUPS.IO FEATURES
*A member has the ability to “mute” a thread or hashtag so that additions to it will no longer be received. Also, a member who uses Digest mode or does not normally receive e-mails can override the setting and receive a certain thread or hashtag.
*Attachments of images etc. within posts are now allowed.
*Although the archive of messages from yahoogroups has been transferred, the numbering system is no longer the same. Therefore, searching for a message based on a number found in another yahoogroups message won’t work. Search for an appropriate text stream, if there is one, instead.
*A flexible suite of moderation tools enables us to allow many messages to get to the list immediately, without moderator intervention.
*Hashtags are supported although we haven’t done anything to implement them.
*We are an open group. The general public can read our messages, but cannot access our files or photos. 
*Due to it becoming overcrowded, I have reorganized the Files section. All content from 2015 and previous is now in a subfolder. Furthermore, the many Actions that were uploaded in that timeframe have been put in their own sub-subfolder.

PLEASE SNIP YOUR QUOTES
Many e-mail programs by default append a complete copy of the message being replied to. Unless that message is a short one, the practice is inappropriate for our group. It becomes a particular problem when the appended message itself appends another. Please be sure that the length of any message being appended is appropriate compared to your own original content.

Particularly, if you’re replying to a post that includes an image or other attachment, make sure it doesn’t get repeated in yours. We get charged by the space we use, and one image may take up the space of a thousand text messages.

CROSS-POSTINGS TO OTHER GROUPS
It is a breach of etiquette for list members to post the same question to multiple on-line groups simultaneously. People who answer questions on these lists are often experts in the field who are donating generous amounts of their time to assisting those who need guidance. Nobody wants to waste time responding to a question that's already been satisfactorily answered elsewhere.

Instead, please post the question here or to whatever other group you think is most likely to be helpful. If you haven't gotten an answer you can live with in, say, 48 hours, by all means try a different list. In such a case, it's only courteous to say something like "I have tried the XXX list, and got no reply" or "I asked this on the YYY list, and was told ZZZ, I'm not sure I accept this, would anyone here care to comment?" 

POSTING OF IMAGES and FILES
If you need to refer us to an image, and do not wish to link to some other site, please put it (JPEG only, can be either RGB or CMYK) into the Photos section of the group, setting up a folder if need be.

If you need to post a PDF, an action, or any other type of file that is not an image, use the Files section. Unlike yahoogroups, groups.io will not permit you to post a JPEG or anything else that it identifies as an image there. In the event that you have to post some form of image in the Files section, you’ll need to zip it first.

If you only have one or two images to post, and they don’t belong in a specific folder, please put them into the Miscellaneous folder within the Photos section.

Some folders set up by the moderators are locked, i.e. you can look at, download, and comment on pictures, but not add or delete any. Other folders are open and anyone can post pictures to them.

The direct link to our Photos section is
The direct link to our Files section is

AN INTERNATIONAL GROUP
English is not the first language for many subscribers. If you are using acronyms, please be sure that everyone understands what they mean. Also, the preferred format for dates is 5 March; if you write 3/5/12 this means March 5 in the United States, but it means May 3 in most of the rest of the world.

ADVERTISING and COMMERCIAL POSTS
Nobody wants this to become an advertising list, but in practice it is difficult to draw a fine line between a comment and a product plug. Members are requested to use restraint and to ask themselves whether what they are posting is something that a significant number of readers would be interested in. That said, brief plugs are permitted. Similarly, new product announcements are permitted, but the preferred form is to announce briefly and indicate to the list members where further information is available.

Repeated commercial posts are prohibited. Also, there will be little to no tolerance for commercial posts from persons who are not otherwise participating in the list. This includes "public service announcements" or posts promoting private websites.

Unnecessarily lengthy signature blocks that advertise services are discouraged.

CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
Members are entitled to know if posters have commercial affiliations that might affect their views as to the products and topics they post about. If you have such an affiliation, you are expected to disclose it. This doesn't mean in every post, but often enough so that the readers will be in no doubt as to what your biases might be. For the purpose of this list, if you're writing about a certain product, and you've accepted more than $300 from that company within the last five years, that's something that should be disclosed. Similarly, if you have received freebies worth more than $300 during that time, it should be disclosed.

Furthermore, if you in the last five years have been a developer of or otherwise represented a certain product, and you are writing about a product that might reasonably said to compete with it, you are expected to disclose this.

These rules are not intended to stop you from posting on whatever you like, nor are they intended to force you to give any details at all about the payment. If your signature or company identification (e.g. an adobe.com address) makes your affiliation obvious, there's no need for anything more. Otherwise, a "DISCLOSURE: I have received payments/freebies from this company in the recent past" will suffice.

DIGEST MODE
Members who do not want a high volume of single messages may sign up for this list in digest mode. groups.io offers three choices:
1) Full-featured: you get a full copy of all messages sent, including links and attachments, once a day or after 12 new messages have been posted, whichever comes first.
2) Plain digest: same as above, no links or attachments.
3) Daily summary: once a day, shows topics being discussed only, no text.

You are not permitted to reply directly to a Digest file, because groups.io doesn’t want you to append the whole digest to your reply. Your own e-mail client may seem to allow it, but your attempt will be directed to a dead mailbox at groups.io. Instead, within the Digest, click Reply below the specific message that you wish to reply to.

MODERATION AND INAPPROPRIATE POSTS
This list is moderated, currently by five persons. Traditionally, all posts had to be approved by one of us (Gerald Bakker, Darren Bernaerdt, Sterling Ledet, Dan Margulis, Stephen Marsh), before they were distributed to the group.  With groups.io we implemented a more liberal policy: the first post from any member requires moderator approval (otherwise we might be subjected to spam) but once one message has been approved the user may post directly to the list without our intervention, unless we later decide otherwise.

Certain users will remain or become subject to moderation of each post due to having crossed the line on one of the items listed below. Additionally, certain threads will be locked or become subject to moderation if they threaten to get out of control.

If you are subject to moderation we will reject the following types of message without prior warning. If you are not currently subject to moderation, posting one of these is a good way to change that status. NOTE: If we reject a post, we send a message to the sender indicating why. If your post hasn't appeared, and you haven't gotten a rejection message (check your spam folder!), probably the message got lost in cyberspace.

1) Spam; press releases, product announcements or "classified advertising" from people who haven't participated in the list in at least six months or who are recent signups; form letters; posts from people who don't otherwise participate in the list referring us to private websites; and posts from anyone referring us to links without a reasonably full explanation of what is to be found there.

2) Messages in which a full name does not appear.

3) Messages that do not have an informative title, e.g. "No Subject" or "Digest #1234"

4) Messages responding to messages that are extremely dated or that the rest of the list has not seen at all. Typically, this occurs when Party B replies to Party A offline, and Party A responds to the list.

5) Messages that would subject the group to an unreasonable amount of quoted material, such as reposting lengthy, unedited material from other sources, the attachment of a complete message which itself attached additional messages, or simply appending an entire lengthy message rather than snipping the specific material that is of interest.

6) Technical questions that the moderator is aware are simultaneously crossposted to other group(s). The moderator will generally not approve other types of simultaneous crossposts but may use discretion in exceptional cases.

7) Messages that contain a copyright notice or may present legal problems if posted to the group. 

8) Messages that may be hoaxes.

9) Messages containing attempts at ethnic or sexual humor, whether or not there is other relevant content.

10) Other attempts at humor that the moderator doesn't think are funny and that contain no content relevant to an existing thread.

11) Messages that are derisive or dismissive of another member’s skills in photography or color correction. Constructive criticism is welcome but must be framed in a respectful fashion, even if the person being criticized is a beginner.

12) "Repeats" of recent posts hoping to get responses that the first ones did not.

13) Messages from persons who have been list members for less than six months or who have not posted to the list in the past six months, and which in the judgment of the moderator show a lack of understanding of what the list is about or which duplicate something that has been covered recently. Examples: questions like "how do I calibrate my monitor?"; messages of introduction to the list; questions on topics in which the list does not specialize, and questions on a topic about which a thread has just ended.

14) Messages that do not respond to an existing thread and have nothing to do with color or the purposes of this group, e.g. corrections of people's grammar, needless quibbling over terminology or political correctness, statements in support of some political cause, attempts to unsubscribe, virus warnings, or change of address notifications.

15) Today's web etiquette countenances certain acronyms (e.g. POS, FUBAR, SOL, BFD) where an off-color word is implied. As long as these words are not spelled out there is no objection. In the interest of decorum, however, we ask members to refrain from undisguised use of locutions found on the commonly available "Seven Filthy Words" list.

MODERATION AND CENSORSHIP
We do not wish to censor posts based on their content or to cause people to pull their punches in what they write. We are willing to have reasonably brief threads on almost any color-related topic. Intervention by a moderator to restrict discussion is rare. It will become even rarer in groups.io, since now members have the option of muting a thread that doesn’t interest them. However, it may take place under the following circumstances.

1. If in the judgment of the moderators, a thread is going on too long, we will post publicly to the list and to all participants a request to bring it to a close. Our criteria in doing this may include: limited interest of the thread to the vast majority of the group; repetition of the same points over and over; participation only by a few members; or that there was a closely similar recent thread. Unless the list is being deluged, the moderators try to consult with one another before locking a thread. Ordinarily we give the list 24 hours notice that a thread will be ending so that those interested may post their final thoughts on the subject. In the interim, all posts to the thread will require moderator approval. Afterward, the thread will be locked so that no further posts can be accepted. 

2. Occasionally a thread has become so acid that a moderator posts a warning about civility, or about bringing in irrelevancies such as discussion of political events. In such cases the thread continues, but all additions to the thread will require moderator approval, and the list is on notice that offending posts are subject to rejection at the discretion of the moderators.

3. We reserve the right to limit the sheer volume of posting allowed by any list member or by any interest group that is posting substantially the same type of material.

ARCHIVING
This group has existed since 2/99, but in late 12/00 it shifted servers to egroups, later yahoogroups. In 11/19, it moved to groups,io. All yahoogroups messages, files, and photos are accessible at colortheory.groups.io. Note, however, that the yahoogroups message numbering scheme did not carry over to groups.io. Therefore, any archived message that refers to a different one by number will not link to the correct message. Search by text instead.

From time to time, we have post edited full threads, at
There are currently around 300 such threads available. The most recent update was August, 2013. 

THE MODERNCOLORWORKFLOW SITE
My book Modern Photoshop Color Workflow was released in March, 2013. In conjunction with it, we opened http://www.moderncolorworkflow.com, which has a variety of materials that might supplement the discussions of this list.

RE-USE OF POSTED MATERIAL
In today's information age, the assumption must be that comments posted to groups like this one are for public consumption, and may be freely quoted by others without further permission. Images referred to in group messages, whether posted to this group's photo section or posted on the web sites of others, are a different story. Such images are assumed to be copyrighted material, and no reuse is permissible without the consent of the owner.

AUTO-REPLIES
If you auto-reply to e-mail (typically to inform people that you are on vacation), be sure that the list is excluded. Among other ways, you can do this by setting your auto-reply to ignore either messages containing [colortheory] in the title, or "Precedence: bulk" in the header. If you auto-reply more than once to list messages, your posting privileges will be suspended so that moderators will not have to delete each auto-reply manually. If you subsequently wish to post to the list and receive an automated reply that you are not permitted to post, please contact a moderator.

QUESTIONS AS TO APPROPRIATENESS
If you have doubts as to the propriety of posting something, please feel free to contact me or another moderator directly.

UNSUBSCRIBING and POSTING DIFFICULTIES
Every list message contains an Unsubscribe link at the bottom. If you have any difficulty in either unsubscribing or in posting to the group, consider the possibility that you are no longer posting or receiving under the exact address with which you subscribed. 

If you attempt to post and receive a message stating that, although you are a member, you are not permitted to post, it means that a moderator has manually disallowed your posting privileges. We do this to members who have sent spam (often the result of a virus) or who have set their mailbox to auto-reply to the group explaining that they are out of the office. If you get this message and wish your rights restored, contact a moderator offline.

To change your email address, log into Groups.io. Then look for the dropdown in the top right corner of the page, which will be either your name or email address. Click that and then click Account.

On the edit profile page, you can change your email address. Once you do so, you will receive a new confirmation email. Once you reply to that, you will be all set.

If the email address you wish to change to is already registered with Groups.io, a page will come up explaining the account merge process and verifying that you would like to merge your accounts.


LEDET GRAPHICS TRAINING
This list is sponsored by Ledet Graphics Training, which offers a variety of Internet and graphic arts courses, with company-owned facilities in the Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington, DC areas. For further information, visit www.ledet.com or call 877-819-2665 (+1 770-414-5007 from outside U.S.)


Dan Margulis
Last revised 1 December 2020
Suggestions for revising this document are welcome.


Fluorescents Stretch the Possibilities of Digital Printing - Xerox

Laurentiu Todie
 


Re: A sign of the times

Beat C
 

The Times They Are A Changing - certainly, but it has been a long way coming.
A.I. has been around of quite some time now (I believe early 1980’s), but it was ‘harmless’ back then.
Only recently, with much faster computers and an fast advance in algorithms, there has been reached a level high enough to make it work, in ‘practical’ applications.

I think, that no matter what we can discover, it can be applied to the good of all of us, or to the good of a few (which mostly means for the bad of the rest).
And it is quite obvious that the few, which also ‘happen’ to be the powerful, decide how something is being used.
As most of the A.I. technology has been developed by Intelligence- and Military fundings, the primary applications seem obvious and we see it closing in on us every day.

We will come to an understanding, that most jobs will become oblivious. Steel arms and silicon minds will do it much cheaper and no strikes.
I think we have to reinvent ourselves and this will apply to almost any profession, so we are definitely not excluded.

I personally have no problem with the possibilities A.I. (and for that matter Evolutionary Programming) are offering me. What I do have a huge problem with, is how I foresee that manufacturers of f.i. ‘camera’s’ are going to implement A.I. I am afraid that it will be hidden from access for us and made to suit, as Dan calls them, the boboise - (if I remember well :-).

In the ideal situation, where we can access the parameters of the A.I. software, or even better, train the software to our needs, a huge new domain is being opened.
Maybe it’s easier for me, being a free artist, to make the shift, than for someone who is a product photographer.
Anyway, I have already anticipated this for a while and have been digging into software to create graphical- and geometrical images (Processing, Mathematica) and 3D software to expand my tools.
I think I can stay ahead of the A.I wave and make use of it. Only, I need access to parameters or learn how to cook up my own A.I.

Up till 2015 I have been involved in music, and as I was writing applications - for my own music mainly - to help me compose. I was writing Evolutionary Programming software which helped me to create new harmonic progressions and new rhythms.

What I mean to say, don’t be afraid of the 'new electric saw’. Use it to make new stuff.

Of course I am not blind at all for the ‘negative’ uses and effects of A.I. As a matter of fact, I have little hope that it will make a better world. But then again, what will with the people in power that we have - and I am looking higher up than idiotic presidents in ‘some’ countries.

Let’s think in new ways. Photoshop and other digital applications once were a very new way too. And now, who could do without :-)

All the best, Beat


Re: A sign of the times

Paco
 

What has really shaken my tree is the new PS trick where one can modify a single portrait shot in ways I still get amazed by. It used to be that a photographer had to have a mastery of the medium to produce a professional quality image specially when the medium was a piece of transparency film. Now anyone, even my young grandchildren can produce images which are super nice with just a touch of a finger. Not that this is anything "bad" but it sure has made taking a great shot commonplace. And with the advent of 3D rendering, it may surely be that the need for professional photography will be a thing of the past. I have lately been doing still life shots where the product has been integrated after the fact in post production using a 3D render. The down side of it all, to me, personally is that images are all looking too perfect. Specially beauty shoots which are making the subjects so perfect they look like dolls. 3D rendered faces are now almost indistinguishable from the "real thing" even to the point where the humidity in the eyes is very believable. Amazing, fantastical composited images are now so commonplace that I am starting to find them boring. It is only because older folk like me still remember what photography used to be like that this moment in its history is apparent. In a couple of years we won't be around to mention the change.

Now... if we ever globally loose electrical power, glass plates, linotypes etc may come back to be the normal mediums. But we are close to extracting zero point energy from the quantum vacuum so I can only imagine the wonders that will bring.

Getting old is a new experience though! ;-}

Paco


A sign of the times

Dan Margulis
 

Today we got a jarring reminder of how bad things are in our industry, even without a pandemic.

The leading trade show in the imaging industry, Photokina Cologne, which has been around as a biannual since 1950 and typically draws close to 200,000 attendees, is no more.
https://www.koelnmesse.com/news/for-media-representatives/press-releases/press-releases.php?aktion=pfach&p1id=kmpresse_kmue&format=html&base=&tp=kme9&search=&pmid=kmeigen.kmpresse_1606470099&start=0&anzahl=10&channel=kmeigen&language=e&archiv=

As everyone knows, it is impossible at this moment to run a large trade show. The sponsor, who also runs several others, has been cancelling everything through February, and has announced that its other biggest show, CCXP, the world leader in the comic field, which drew 270,000 people in 2019 but was cancelled this summer, is now cancelled for 2021 as well. Technically Photokina is cancelled only “until further notice” but the press release makes clear that there is not going to be any such notice and that the reasoning has nothing to do with Covid. It cites “further massive decline in markets for imaging products…Even before the coronavirus pandemic began, the imaging market was already subject to strong upheaval, with annual declines in the double digits. The momentum in this direction intensified massively in 2020, most recently reporting a decline in the 50-percent range.”

The COO of the sponsor nailed it, IMHO: “While there are more photographs taken today than ever before, the integration of smartphone photography and videography, together with image-based communication, e.g. via social media, was not able to cushion the elimination of large segments of the classic market. As a result, the overall situation is not compatible with the quality standards of Photokina…”

A lot of us have suspected that this is what’s happening to our market worldwide, but I haven’t seen a lot of specifics about it.

Dan


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

James Gray
 

I recently had problems with ACR that were really annoying me.  Basically many images were displaying on my iMac as blurry when viewed in ACR, many sliders did not work, sometimes the file being edited would display a different filename than the image shown.  I spent several hours trying to get help from Adobe using their chat option.  Eventually, the support person recommended that I go back to the previous version of Bridge as a workaround.  There are reasons why that was going to make the way I manage and organize my images much more complicated.  So I decided to upgrade my iMac to Big Sur.  That fully resolved the issue with ACR and allowed me to continue managing and organizing my images the way I like.  I have not encountered any bugs in Big Sure that have affected my use of the computer.  Just to be sure I am using Bridge 11.0.0.83 and  ACR 13.2.0.644.

James Gray


On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 5:46 AM Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


We have a few months and more likely a year to adjust to this. Apple just released the Big Sur operating system, which they are calling OS 11. As might be expected, large numbers of bugs are being reported, correctly or not, such as the update bricking the computer so that only Apple can fix it. I strongly advise waiting until things stabilize before installing it. Also, they have released a few laptops with the new chipset. I wouldn’t buy those just yet, either, although in a few months I’m sure things will have worked out. Meanwhile, there doesn’t seem to be a schedule for putting the new chipset on larger Macintoshes.

Dan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

john c.
 

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2020 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity
 
I had some troubles with the top line of colors, but after I decided that I was done, I scored a 0. I was surprised. I'm 70 and use reading glasses over contact lenses (the old hard, gas permeable type).

David Kessler


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

David
 

I had some troubles with the top line of colors, but after I decided that I was done, I scored a 0. I was surprised. I'm 70 and use reading glasses over contact lenses (the old hard, gas permeable type).

David Kessler


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

john c.
 

Revisiting this thread, I recently took the Farnsworth-Munsell 100 hue test using my best calibrated display and did fairly well, but then I realized that I was wearing my reading glasses that have a slight yellow coating on them to guard against u.v. exposure. I switched to a clear pair and did amazingly better, nearly a perfect score. I’m guessing that cataract surgery would produce a similar improvement. Even though our visual system adapts to a white balance with or without a filter, it’s not the same result. Looking through a filter exaggerates some hues and diminishes the brightness of others even though the same overall white balance is achieved.
 
John Castronovo
 

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2020 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [colortheory] A unique color-testing opportunity
 

I have been a bit on-and-off lately, but now it seems like I can spend some time with colours again.

 

I took the X-Rite test, and scored 2 in the first attempt, then reduced indirect light onto the screen, and did 0-zero.

I am 67 years, use glasses (myopic) and have one of those “floating” nuisances in the right eye. Also, the right eye sees more yellow colours than the left.

Otherwise I am happy.

Also, I would donate some amount to keep the group going, once I find out how.

 

Regards

John Furnes

 

 


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Daniele Di Stanio
 

Truth is, Apple released to developers a transition kit, back in June:

Furthermore, on Big Sur's release day several small and big developers were ready with native support updates for their apps. In one case: BlackMagic Design Resolve (a full fledged professional solution for video color correction, that by the way is also free) an open beta with native support was published.

Adobe's promise to update with native support Lr in a month, and Ps "early next year" is bad, especially considering the difference in revenues with other apps. But the fact that they're talking to developers NOW, after they had more than four months with hardware and software it's abysmal, and means they didn't even try. 

Rumors say that Apple will update the Macbook Pro left in Q2 and possibly a 24" iMac, while larger iMacs, iMac Pros and Mac Pro from Q4 on. Just rumors, but were solid up to now.

But hey, Neural Filters, am I right? :-D

Daniele Di Stanio
fabbricacinema.com, Founder / CdA



On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 1:46 PM Dan Margulis via groups.io <dmargulis=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Nov 25, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Frederick Yocum <frederick@...> wrote:

This is the joy of using a commercial product from a large organization. Next to zero transparency and decisions impacted by multiple  layers of decision makers. Dark Table anyone?

It’s hard to know who to blame, though. Adobe claims not to have been able to test on this new Mac chipset, in which case they were no more to blame than Giuliana Abbiati or Davide is when Adobe makes a last-minute change to a new Photoshop release and breaks half the third-party extensions. For Apple’s part, they feel no responsibility to test every facet of every Adobe product any more than Adobe feels any responsibility to test the PPW panel before it releases a new Photoshop version.

We have a few months and more likely a year to adjust to this. Apple just released the Big Sur operating system, which they are calling OS 11. As might be expected, large numbers of bugs are being reported, correctly or not, such as the update bricking the computer so that only Apple can fix it. I strongly advise waiting until things stabilize before installing it. Also, they have released a few laptops with the new chipset. I wouldn’t buy those just yet, either, although in a few months I’m sure things will have worked out. Meanwhile, there doesn’t seem to be a schedule for putting the new chipset on larger Macintoshes.

Dan


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Dan Margulis
 


On Nov 25, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Frederick Yocum <frederick@...> wrote:

This is the joy of using a commercial product from a large organization. Next to zero transparency and decisions impacted by multiple  layers of decision makers. Dark Table anyone?

It’s hard to know who to blame, though. Adobe claims not to have been able to test on this new Mac chipset, in which case they were no more to blame than Giuliana Abbiati or Davide is when Adobe makes a last-minute change to a new Photoshop release and breaks half the third-party extensions. For Apple’s part, they feel no responsibility to test every facet of every Adobe product any more than Adobe feels any responsibility to test the PPW panel before it releases a new Photoshop version.

We have a few months and more likely a year to adjust to this. Apple just released the Big Sur operating system, which they are calling OS 11. As might be expected, large numbers of bugs are being reported, correctly or not, such as the update bricking the computer so that only Apple can fix it. I strongly advise waiting until things stabilize before installing it. Also, they have released a few laptops with the new chipset. I wouldn’t buy those just yet, either, although in a few months I’m sure things will have worked out. Meanwhile, there doesn’t seem to be a schedule for putting the new chipset on larger Macintoshes.

Dan


Re: A unique color-testing opportunity

John Furnes
 

I have been a bit on-and-off lately, but now it seems like I can spend some time with colours again.

 

I took the X-Rite test, and scored 2 in the first attempt, then reduced indirect light onto the screen, and did 0-zero.

I am 67 years, use glasses (myopic) and have one of those “floating” nuisances in the right eye. Also, the right eye sees more yellow colours than the left.

Otherwise I am happy.

Also, I would donate some amount to keep the group going, once I find out how.

 

Regards

John Furnes

 

 


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Laurentiu Todie
 

Thank you!

Laurentiu


On Nov 25, 2020, at 12:33, Davide Barranca <undavide@...> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 07:31 AM, Laurentiu Todie wrote:
Do you know if we can keep a Mac as is, with Photoshop 21.2.4 and an M1 chip Mac with the new Photoshop version on the same Adobe subscription?
The CC subscription allows you I think a couple of seats, with which you're allowed to use whatever device. The new version that is going to be released with full support for Apple Silicon is going to be a Universal Binary (I think that's the name but I can be wrong) that can be run on M1 either as Intel or Silicon – there should be a checkbox to tick somewhere. The first run in emulation is expected to take longer as Rosetta 2 figures out what to do, then subsequent launches will be "standard".

Being this binary "universal" I guess it's the same file that is deployed to Intel Macs, only difference being that whereas Intel can run only the Intel part, M1 can run both Intel and Silicon. In other words there would be no need to keep different versions on different machines, as Intels will always be able to run CEP, and M1 will always (i.e. for an X amount of years) be able to run the emulation mode.
HTH,

Davide


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Davide Barranca
 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 07:31 AM, Laurentiu Todie wrote:
Do you know if we can keep a Mac as is, with Photoshop 21.2.4 and an M1 chip Mac with the new Photoshop version on the same Adobe subscription?
The CC subscription allows you I think a couple of seats, with which you're allowed to use whatever device. The new version that is going to be released with full support for Apple Silicon is going to be a Universal Binary (I think that's the name but I can be wrong) that can be run on M1 either as Intel or Silicon – there should be a checkbox to tick somewhere. The first run in emulation is expected to take longer as Rosetta 2 figures out what to do, then subsequent launches will be "standard".

Being this binary "universal" I guess it's the same file that is deployed to Intel Macs, only difference being that whereas Intel can run only the Intel part, M1 can run both Intel and Silicon. In other words there would be no need to keep different versions on different machines, as Intels will always be able to run CEP, and M1 will always (i.e. for an X amount of years) be able to run the emulation mode.
HTH,

Davide


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Frederick Yocum
 

This is the joy of using a commercial product from a large organization. Next to zero transparency and decisions impacted by multiple  layers of decision makers. Dark Table anyone?

regards,

Frederick Yocum
frederick@...
Website:frederickyocum.com





On Nov 25, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Davide Barranca <undavide@...> wrote:

Hello everybody,
to anyone who's interested: Adobe has published a note where they elaborate a bit on the Photoshop extensibility support with the new Apple Silicon devices.

Long story short: if you're on Windows, nothing changes. If you use Mac with Intel CPUs nothing changes. If you have a Mac with the brand new M1 chip, either you lose CEP panels altogether or you run the new PS universal app (available early next year) in emulation mode through Rosetta 2 – which is very much likely making PS a bit slower, hard to say how much for the time being. More details at the provided link.

The above has caused a bit of a mayhem in the developers community because Adobe has been telling us that the process of phasing out CEP would have taken N years, instead with Apple Silicon it turns out that N = 0. The official reply from the PS team is based almost entirely on performance concerns.
Fun fact: PS is the only one in the entire lineup that is giving up to CEP at once on Apple Silicon, all the other apps (AE, PPro, ID, IL...) will keep it alongside UXP for as long as necessary to the dev community to port their products.
Regards

Davide


Re: CEP panels and Apple Silicon

Laurentiu Todie
 

Thank you Davide
for this information!
Do you know if we can keep a Mac as is, with Photoshop 21.2.4 and an M1 chip Mac with the new Photoshop version on the same Adobe subscription?

Thank you,

On Nov 25, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Davide Barranca <undavide@...> wrote:

Hello everybody,
to anyone who's interested: Adobe has published a note where they elaborate a bit on the Photoshop extensibility support with the new Apple Silicon devices.

Long story short: if you're on Windows, nothing changes. If you use Mac with Intel CPUs nothing changes. If you have a Mac with the brand new M1 chip, either you lose CEP panels altogether or you run the new PS universal app (available early next year) in emulation mode through Rosetta 2 – which is very much likely making PS a bit slower, hard to say how much for the time being. More details at the provided link.

The above has caused a bit of a mayhem in the developers community because Adobe has been telling us that the process of phasing out CEP would have taken N years, instead with Apple Silicon it turns out that N = 0. The official reply from the PS team is based almost entirely on performance concerns.
Fun fact: PS is the only one in the entire lineup that is giving up to CEP at once on Apple Silicon, all the other apps (AE, PPro, ID, IL...) will keep it alongside UXP for as long as necessary to the dev community to port their products.
Regards

Davide

Laurentiu Todie
DIGITALIS.ART