Re: Start of game Wrong Ball problem

 

Not an easy one so I referred to ACA top referees - Mike Cohn & Liz Fleming.
response below


Elizabeth Fleming 

07:48 (33 minutes ago)
to Mikeme
Hi Mike,

As a ruling referee or preferably the TR I would have wanted to quiz the players further before giving a definite ruling.
 
The wrong ball error in the third turn has been claimed and partially rectified, but with R left in a misplaced position (on the court when it should not be).  I would therefore treat that error as having been dealt with, though I would want to know why R was left on the court and that would influence my final decision.
 
A wrong-ball error has been committed on the fourth turn and claimed, so in theory it needs to be rectified.  Y would be returned to corner IV and R must then be placed somewhere on baulk.  End of turn.  That looks like the solution, but I am not convinced it is the proper answer.

As TR I would have very serious questions I would require the answers to:
Why was R left in a misplaced position at the end of turn 3?  This is an error under Law 27(i) and if R was left there deliberately, the player is liable for punishment for having deliberately committed an error, though it doesn’t otherwise influence what was done in turn 3.  Was R left there deliberately for the purpose of deceiving the opponent?  We cannot know, and I don’t think my solution depends on knowing. 

If R was left there accidentally, because the player did not understand the wrong ball law properly, then R has been left in a misplaced position by the opponent.  It looks as though the player of R and Y could claim to have been misled either by the misplacement of a ball (but has R suffered interference?) or by false information supplied by the opponent (but does leaving a ball on the court when it should not be there constitute false information about the state of the game?).

Without being on sight at the time (and assuming this is not some made-up scenario for training purposes by an over enthusiastic individual) I think I would rule that whatever the reason the third turn player left R improperly on the lawn, that has misled the player of the fourth turn.  Whether 31(a)(2) or 31(a)(3) applies, or neither applies and I have to invoke Law 55 to argue by analogy, I would allow the player of the fourth turn a replay, taking R off the lawn and playing it into the game properly.

I think it is extremely important that whoever goes back to review this question, the point needs to be covered that the opponent knowing that R was misplaced and being obliged to do something about it; that by failing to do so leaves the player open to penalty.

Regards,
Liz

Aus. Rep. WCF.AC.LC 
Elizabeth Fleming
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 17:43, Tim Murphy <croquetscores@...> wrote:
I believe red had stopped being an outside agency.

6.c.4

A ball ceases to be a ball in hand and an outside agency and becomes a ball at rest when it is placed in a lawful position on the court or, if left on the court in a misplaced position, at the start of the next stroke

On Tue, 9 Apr. 2019, 15:35 Ron Humpherson, <rafbim@...> wrote:

I had also asked Bob Green for his views and he concluded that the Red ball was not a misplaced ball but an outside agency:

Law 6 (c) Ball in Hand
(1) Any ball becomes a ball in hand and an outside agency:
(D) when it must be replaced in order to rectify an error or correct an interference.

Playing of Yellow was therefore a wrong ball play and Red should be placed on a baulk line.

On 2/04/2019 11:07 am, Tim Murphy wrote:
I agree with Alix and Jim.


Which then directs you to 27.f.

On Mon, 1 Apr. 2019, 09:40 Jim Nicholls, <jimbo.croquet@...> wrote:
Agree with Alix.
After Player A incorrectly played Red onto the court, the Red ball should have been removed.
Leaving Red on the lawn at this point is incorrect placement of a ball (and perhaps also Player A mis-leading Player B)

Player B to play Red from a baulk line.


Jim Nicholls
 


On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 21:08, Alix Verge <alixverge@...> wrote:
I think nothing relieves player B of his obligation to play red onto the lawn in the 4th turn rather than striking yellow a second time so yellow to be returned to corner 4 and player B plays red onto the lawn from a baulk line ie the ball he should have played 4th turn. Just roll back to last legal stroke 



Alix (mob)
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AUSTRALIA: RESETTLING BOAT PEOPLE SINCE 1788


-------- Original message --------
From: Ron Humpherson <rafbim@...>
Date: 31/03/2019 8:48 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: [cnswplayers] Start of game Wrong Ball problem

At the Mosman AC tournament this weekend I was called to adjudicate on this situation at the start of the game

  1. Player A correctly plays Blue to East boundary
  2. Player B correctly plays Yellow to Corner 4

  3. Player A plays Red to West boundary and measures in

  4. Wrong ball called
  5. Player A places Black on baulk-line in Corner 3 but Red is left in place

  6. Player B shoots Yellow at Red, misses and measures in
  7. Wrong ball called
  8. Referee called
I ruled:
  1. Return Yellow to Corner 3
  2. Remove Red and place anywhere on baulk-lines
  3. Player A to continue
Was this correct? the discussion with other refs here was uncertain.

Ron





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