Topics

Night Vision

bart van otterdijk
 

Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(
We were looking at the 9350ef-pv.
That would suit our needs.

Anyone on the list who owns/knows someone who does this kind of piece of kit in Europe and would be willing to rent it out to us maybe??
Any tips on where we could look for this or how we could achieve the same look are also welcome...
I did look into the IR solution too but it does look a bit different than night-vision, no??
It’s uncharted territory for me..

Thx.

Bart Van Otterdijk
Dop/camera operator
Belgium

George Palmer
 

Bart,
At the risk of the inevitable blowback, most of the faux night vision footage I’ve seen was acquired with either (cheap imitations of) real  Image intensified or really cheesy cheap IR cams. I’ve seen lots of footage from both. The faux stuff is all either greenish or b&w but usually very noisy looking imagery, quite different from true IR or even battle field image intensified footage. Many modern digital cinema cameras are however capable of low light capture easily equal to those older cameras, so subject to some pretesting they might be usable in high ISO mode with or without (greenish) color filtering (for effect). Just a thought.

George Palmer
Escaped DIT and Imaging Technologist
Escaped to Western NY State




On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:45 PM bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:
Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(
We were looking at the 9350ef-pv.
That would suit our needs.

Anyone on the list who owns/knows someone who does this kind of piece of kit in Europe and would be willing to rent it out to us maybe??
Any tips on where we could look for this or how we could achieve the same look are also welcome...
I did look into the IR solution too but it does look a bit different than night-vision, no??
It’s uncharted territory for me..

Thx.

Bart Van Otterdijk
Dop/camera operator
Belgium

--
George Palmer

Peter Nelson
 

Hi Bart,
I think George is on to a good solution.  
Perhaps look at the Canon ME20F-SH low light camera.  At the high ISO (2 Million!) it has a cool noisy look that might be graded to your preferences.  Should be fairly easy to get too.

Peter Nelson 
NY DP

On Nov 27, 2017, at 1:25 PM, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(

Steve Oakley
 

there are any number of consumer cameras with actual IR modes that a cheap enough to just buy for the shot

there are real IR intesifiers which you can rent, mainly aimed at 2/3” ENG cameras

check these guys out, they will have what you need  http://www.nightvisioncameras.com/nv-app-news.html

S


On Nov 27, 2017, at 1:25 PM, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(


George Palmer
 

Sofradir is indeed a very reputable sensor/camera company.  However be sure that if you want a large format NV/IR camera for DOF compatibility with other non-night footage in your project that your choice is actually a large format solution.

George  Palmer
DIT Escapee on the Western NY Tundra
--
George Palmer

George Palmer
 

Sofradir is indeed a very reputable sensor/camera company.  However be sure that if you want a large format NV/IR camera for DOF compatibility with other non-night footage in your project that your choice is actually a large format solution.
George Palmer 
DIT Escapee to the Western New York Tundra

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 12:46 PM Steve Oakley <steveo@...> wrote:
there are any number of consumer cameras with actual IR modes that a cheap enough to just buy for the shot

there are real IR intesifiers which you can rent, mainly aimed at 2/3” ENG cameras

check these guys out, they will have what you need  http://www.nightvisioncameras.com/nv-app-news.html

S



On Nov 27, 2017, at 1:25 PM, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(



--
George Palmer

Freek Zonderland
 

hi Bart,

I have a RED ScarletW with a full spectrum OLPF. So with the right filtration in front you might be able too pull something off.

Freek Zonderland
Cinematographer 
Delft, The Netherlands

bart van otterdijk
 

Thx Guys,

That’s some good and helpful info.
I’m still not sure which way we should go since I’m waiting on some more info on what exactly we want to shoot with this camera.

The ‘real’ night vision is out the door now. There’s limitations on exporting these it seems since it’s considered military/sensible equipment which is understandable.

We don’t have the budget not the time to ship it all the way from the US just for the one scene.

I’m still considering the Red option with the right OLPF and some IR lighting.

Freek: hij filtration do you mean? The scene is set at night in a harbour.
Not much available light I guess.

b!

Bart Van Otterdijk
Belgica


On 29 Nov 2017, at 10:39, Freek Zonderland <freek@...> wrote:

hi Bart,

I have a RED ScarletW with a full spectrum OLPF. So with the right filtration in front you might be able too pull something off.

Freek Zonderland
Cinematographer 
Delft, The Netherlands

Franz
 

On a action horror I have filmed a 7” screen with a feed from a quite cheap consumer grade night vision, with a Moviecam, handheld… and brandishing a heavy machine gun. Uh…firing too.. (see below)
Maybe that is an option?
Franz

--
Franz Pagot AIC MBKS
Cinematographer
BAFTA 
http://www.franzpagot.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/
https://vimeo.com/franzpagot
http://www.youtube.com/FranzPagot
mob +44 7770 520757
skype: acquademon
United Kingdom

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
+44(0)207 287 9564 | www.wp-a.co.uk

On 29 Nov 2017, at 10:25, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

Thx Guys,

That’s some good and helpful info.
I’m still not sure which way we should go since I’m waiting on some more info on what exactly we want to shoot with this camera.

The ‘real’ night vision is out the door now. There’s limitations on exporting these it seems since it’s considered military/sensible equipment which is understandable.

We don’t have the budget not the time to ship it all the way from the US just for the one scene.

I’m still considering the Red option with the right OLPF and some IR lighting.

Freek: hij filtration do you mean? The scene is set at night in a harbour.
Not much available light I guess.

b!

Bart Van Otterdijk
Belgica


On 29 Nov 2017, at 10:39, Freek Zonderland <freek@...> wrote:

hi Bart,

I have a RED ScarletW with a full spectrum OLPF. So with the right filtration in front you might be able too pull something off.

Freek Zonderland
Cinematographer 
Delft, The Netherlands

Freek Zonderland
 

With the Full Spectrum OLPF I have you would still need to cut out the part of the visible light, as it just let's through everything.
This gives you a little bit more room to play with, compared to a filter that would let IR through.
I didn't play with it yet, so if you want to and have time we can test it together. Don't know where in Belgium you are located?
You can send me an e-mail off list- freek@...

Freek Zonderland
Cinematographer 
Delft, The Netherland

bart van otterdijk
 

yes, Freek.

Guess the ambient or ‘visual’ light levels would be quite low and we’d add IR-Led fixtures on the parts of the scene we’d like to see.
Those would be far brighter in the IR spectrum, right?

I’d like to test this but I really don’t know if we have the time for that. 
Maybe next friday or over the weekend that might be possible.

I’ll speak to my bosses to feel if this a path we’d want to tread on.

A filter to cut the visible light would that not be a standard old-school ND? Not IR-ND?
Or did I just write something really stupid there? :-)

I’m in Mechelen and the shoot would be in the harbour of Brussels on the 8th of december.

Bart Van Otterdijk
DOP/operator
Mechelen, Belgistan


On 29 Nov 2017, at 15:54, Freek Zonderland <freek@...> wrote:

With the Full Spectrum OLPF I have you would still need to cut out the part of the visible light, as it just let's through everything.
This gives you a little bit more room to play with, compared to a filter that would let IR through.
I didn't play with it yet, so if you want to and have time we can test it together. Don't know where in Belgium you are located?
You can send me an e-mail off list- freek@...

Freek Zonderland
Cinematographer 
Delft, The Netherland

Ganzo
 

I did the exact shots using simulated night vision for the movie I just finished in South Africa where we were told it was illegal for civilians to have the real night vision.
I used a Sony A7S and Sony A7S II. I shot at 102,000 ASA or more  (depending on the lighting situation) which gave me a very grainy and high contrast look. I then made it B&W and then green and white in post (even in dailies) to match the real night vision color. It worked great. And the small Sony mirrorless cameras were easy to handle as if they were the NV goggles.
Roberto Schaefer, ASC/AIC
Venice Beach, CA

bart van otterdijk
 

yes Roberto (and all others of course),

We did consider the superhighmegasensitive path too and we have a canon ME20 on option for this.
This is certainly a good way to go but it does seem/feel a bit away from the ‘real’ night vision which would pick up the ‘heat’ really.

I contacted my uncle who used to work for Belgian special police forces to see if they would have some real life gizmo’s maybe they would be willing to share with us for this scene :-)
Let’s wait and see. Belgian Police are usually quite cool when it comes to shooting TV drama and Films. Not so much when you’re speeding though ;-)

I also spoke to Sofradir and they were really helpful and kind but as you mentioned it’s a bit of a pain to export this kinda gear since it’s considered military grade (??) and needs special licences.
Certainly in the time-frame we have to work in this is not possible for us. Also it’d be way too expensive :-(

So for the time being we’re looking in lots of different directions.
From consumer camera’s with night-vision option via RED with the right OLPF (like Freeks) up till real life actual police/military night vision cameras..

I’ll keep you guys posted.
and yes if need be we could always consider Franz’s option with the movicam :-)


thx!

Bart Van Otterdijk
DOP/Operator 
Belgenland




On 29 Nov 2017, at 16:13, Ganzo <ganzo@...> wrote:

I did the exact shots using simulated night vision for the movie I just finished in South Africa where we were told it was illegal for civilians to have the real night vision.
I used a Sony A7S and Sony A7S II. I shot at 102,000 ASA or more  (depending on the lighting situation) which gave me a very grainy and high contrast look. I then made it B&W and then green and white in post (even in dailies) to match the real night vision color. It worked great. And the small Sony mirrorless cameras were easy to handle as if they were the NV goggles.
Roberto Schaefer, ASC/AIC
Venice Beach, CA

James Peterson
 

I have been working on a series requiring low light tools for the night time scenes.  My series is with the military so I can’t use IR lights as they blind the pilots.  

The best setup I have found has been the A7SII with 1.2 primes.  The results are amazing.  The green look isn’t there and can be a valuable “POV” shot but the images from the prime a7sii combo have amazing detail.  You do need a little moon light or ambient city lights but it works.  

I had the Astroscope 9530 with me but never used it as the above combo accomplished the task.   

Thanks and feel free to reach out if you need more info

Jimmy




On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:45 PM bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:
Hey all,

For an upcoming tv-series we’re looking for a good ‘night-vision’ solution.
We’d be ok with maybe an ef/canon mount something?? (PL is not available here) In the US there’s some great options available for rent but production doesn’t have the budget to pay for rent/shipping/customs since it’s only for one scene really :-(
We were looking at the 9350ef-pv.
That would suit our needs.

Anyone on the list who owns/knows someone who does this kind of piece of kit in Europe and would be willing to rent it out to us maybe??
Any tips on where we could look for this or how we could achieve the same look are also welcome...
I did look into the IR solution too but it does look a bit different than night-vision, no??
It’s uncharted territory for me..

Thx.

Bart Van Otterdijk
Dop/camera operator
Belgium

--
James Peterson NYDP +1.212.390.0713 james@...

Franz
 

On 29 Nov 2017, at 15:39, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

and yes if need be we could always consider Franz’s option with the movicam :-)

Ah ah ah… I did not mean to suggest shooting with a Moviecam… but to shoot a small monitor fed by a consumer cheap night vision camera with a Alexa or RED. The NV footage is always perceived as electronic, so you get away with it.
Just a thought, even though an A7 maxed out is far easier.
Franz

--
Franz Pagot AIC MBKS
Cinematographer
BAFTA 
http://www.franzpagot.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/
https://vimeo.com/franzpagot
http://www.youtube.com/FranzPagot
mob +44 7770 520757
skype: acquademon
United Kingdom

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
+44(0)207 287 9564 | www.wp-a.co.uk

bart van otterdijk
 

I know that, Franz.. Just having a bit of a laugh ;-)

Like you say we all associate the greenish/grainy look for granted with NV.. Too much Hollywood movies??
So yes. Looking into all these different options and the suggestion of the A7s in ultra sensitive mode could do the trick too.. Like the canon 20.
Is that in any way IR sensitive too??

b!


On 29 Nov 2017, at 17:17, Franz <franpagot@...> wrote:

On 29 Nov 2017, at 15:39, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

and yes if need be we could always consider Franz’s option with the movicam :-)

Ah ah ah… I did not mean to suggest shooting with a Moviecam… but to shoot a small monitor fed by a consumer cheap night vision camera with a Alexa or RED. The NV footage is always perceived as electronic, so you get away with it.
Just a thought, even though an A7 maxed out is far easier.
Franz

--
Franz Pagot AIC MBKS
Cinematographer
BAFTA 
http://www.franzpagot.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/
https://vimeo.com/franzpagot
http://www.youtube.com/FranzPagot
mob +44 7770 520757
skype: acquademon
United Kingdom

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
+44(0)207 287 9564 | www.wp-a.co.uk

Ganzo
 

Another option is to use the Panasonic Varicam at 12,800 Asa setting and remove the IR filter which is a very easy procedure that can be done on location. The camera is designed to be able to pull that filter so One can shoot IR footage as desired. So combine the True IR images with grainy high ASA and then color it monochrome green as you like in post.

Roberto Schaefer, ASC / AIC
Venice Beach, Ca.

Mitch Gross
 

Roberto is correct but please note that it is the VariCam LT that has the removable IR Cut filter. The VariCam 35 and VariCam Pure do not. Still, the VariCam LT shares the same sensor and image processors, including the 800/5000 Dual Native ISO.

Depending on the actual light levels in which you're shooting you may not need to gain up much beyond the Native 5000 ISO. As well as adding the green cast, you can try experimenting with using only one of the three color channels to attain more of the classic night vision look.


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Ganzo <ganzo@...> wrote:

Another option is to use the Panasonic Varicam at 12,800 Asa setting and remove the IR filter which is a very easy procedure that can be done on location. The camera is designed to be able to pull that filter so One can shoot IR footage as desired. So combine the True IR images with grainy high ASA and then color it monochrome green as you like in post.

Mitch Gross
 

Almost forgot to note one more option. The new Panasonic EVA1 camera has the IR Cut filter on an internal motorized tray, just like the internal NDs. Flipping it out of the way is as simple as a setting in the menu. The EVA1 has Dual Native ISOs of 800 & 2500, and you can gain it up to 25,600 ISO. That can certainly provide excellent low light image capture, and then you can experiment with the green cast as well. 

The EVA1 has been shipping for about a month, so you should be able to call around to find one available for rent. Like the VariCam LT, the EVA1 comes as a native EF mount camera as you noted you were looking for. 

One last note is that if you're looking to sell that classic night vision look, early such systems often suffered from some image lag and blooming highlights. A Tiffen Double Fog filter could help to lend this feel, and you could boost up noise reduction either in post of even in the EVA1 (it's in the menus). 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:34 PM, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

Roberto is correct but please note that it is the VariCam LT that has the removable IR Cut filter. The VariCam 35 and VariCam Pure do not. Still, the VariCam LT shares the same sensor and image processors, including the 800/5000 Dual Native ISO.

Depending on the actual light levels in which you're shooting you may not need to gain up much beyond the Native 5000 ISO. As well as adding the green cast, you can try experimenting with using only one of the three color channels to attain more of the classic night vision look.


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Ganzo <ganzo@...> wrote:

Another option is to use the Panasonic Varicam at 12,800 Asa setting and remove the IR filter which is a very easy procedure that can be done on location. The camera is designed to be able to pull that filter so One can shoot IR footage as desired. So combine the True IR images with grainy high ASA and then color it monochrome green as you like in post.

Barry Bassett
 

I am Barry Bassett from camera rental company, VMI.

 

I agree with Peter Nelson that the Canon ME20 fSH is an incredible camera for low light. 

 

Canon claim an ASA rating of 4m but in reality, it shows noise free images in incredible low light and does so with colour as well – you have to see these results to believe them!

 

It is relatively low cost as well and even uses EF lenses as well.

 

We were the first UK rental company to stock the ME20 and now carry 2 of these in London and Bristol.  If you are interested in speaking about a deal, then call Gary on 0117 927 7473 or email him on gd@....

 

Barry

 

 

George Palmer
 

   “The new Panasonic EVA1 camera has the IR Cut filter on an internal motorized tray, just like the internal NDs.”   Thanks for that Info Mitch.  Given Steve Mahrer’s influence and Panasonic’s great low light performance both the LT and the EVA1 would be my choices for a simulated Near IR, night vision shot.

George Palmer
Western NY Tundraite
--
George Palmer

Serge Teulon - DoP
 

Just stumbled across this camera for coloured night vision. 

Potential game changer?


Serge Teulon
DoP
LDN

Steve Oakley
 

How about a drone mounted FLIR camera doing false color ? specs are  1 XT FLIR 640 pixels, 30hz, 13mm focal length. and the look
 

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX Artist
Madison & Milwaukee WI
920 544 2230

bart van otterdijk
 

We used the new Panasonic EVA-1 like Mitch suggested in the IR mode. 
Some IR-LED fixtures to ‘light’ the scene. Weird stuff since you can’t even see if it’s on or off with the naked eye :-)

Then some green sauce and a vignette or two maybe over it in grading, looks great!

Thx all for the feedback and tips.


Bart Van Otterdijk
Belgica



On 4 Dec 2017, at 17:56, Steve Oakley <steveo@...> wrote:

How about a drone mounted FLIR camera doing false color ? specs are  1 XT FLIR 640 pixels, 30hz, 13mm focal length. and the look
 
<24174485_10212558894540208_4467319828281209869_n.jpg>

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX Artist
Madison & Milwaukee WI
920 544 2230

Mitch Gross
 

Cool, glad it worked for you.

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Dec 11, 2017, at 1:53 PM, bart van otterdijk <bartvanotterdijk@...> wrote:

We used the new Panasonic EVA-1 like Mitch suggested in the IR mode.
Some IR-LED fixtures to ‘light’ the scene. Weird stuff since you can’t even see if it’s on or off with the naked eye :-)

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