Topics

Filming Motorbikes

nick.normanbutler@...
 

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

 

Have you looked at the specs of the new Sony RX0? I’m not sure if they are available in the wild yet but it’s got Slog that might help.  Presumably it’s a rolling shutter but maybe on some kind of arm to take out the heavier pot holes..

Michael J Sanders: Director of Photography 
  
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On 13 Dec 2017, at 17:46, nick.normanbutler@... wrote:

any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light

Chris Burton
 

Hi Nick,

This might help you illuminate the bike if you choose to shoot with a GoPro (you’ll probably need to ND it down):

And I’ve shot motorbikes (on private roads) from the back of a van or side door. I’ve used a ronin mounted on a tripod to stabilise the car movement using this accessory:

(I have an interest in PROtastic… but wouldn’t market anything I don’t recommend! :) )

Best regards,



Director Of Photography
Manchester, England

Motion Controlled Time-lapse
Fixed Rig Time-lapse

Stock Photo Library
Digital & Print

http://www.lizard-king.comhttp://www.timelapsey.comhttp://www.kingdoms.co.uk





From: <nick.normanbutler@...>
Reply-To: <cml-general@groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, 13 December 2017 at 17:46
To: <cml-general@groups.io>
Subject: [cml-general] Filming Motorbikes

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

Alex Metcalfe DoP
 

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros

I have used one of these before which are much better in low light than a go pro but also very small. Micro 4/3 sensor so you can get fast lenses for them. 



Alex Metcalfe
DoP
Sent from my LG Mobile

------ Original message------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 20:14
Cc:
Subject:[cml-general] Filming Motorbikes







Stephen Baker
 

Hi Nick,
The Sony A7S is great in low light, its not Go Pro size but it is small. The other Option and I’m not sure of its low light capabilities but as its a Sony I’m guessing its better than the Go Pro, is the Sony RX0, Sonys new action cam.




STEPHEN BAKER
Rental Account Manager

Imagezone NZ Ltd.
Grey Lynn
Auckland.

Office:      09 476 3466      
Mobile:    021 774 301 
Email: stephen@...





On 14/12/2017, at 6:46 AM, nick.normanbutler@... wrote:

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

Kevin Brusie
 

GoPro makes a chest harness, and I have seen others modify them to hold a DSLR, such as a Canon 7D/5D which would give you that great low light performance, and still qualify as small? Be sure to use a small fixed wide angle lens to comply.  I have found rigging a camera directly to the bike can be problematic due to the high frequency vibrations. And lighting the bike might not help, as it would place the surrounding areas into relative darkness.
If you want a POV from the bike, I would use the chest mount. If you want to film the bike from an along side position, I would try to get a second vehicle, preferably a 4 wheeled one for the stability. Or get a skilled motorcyclist (real bike, not moped) and sit on the rear seat facing backwards with a camera so you can shoot from the head on position of the moped. I have been a 'host motorcyclist' for this during local road races for coaches and camera men.
Good luck,
It sounds like a fun project.
Kevin Brusie

| KEVIN | BRUSIE | PHOTOGRAPHY
______________________________
 
STILL + MOTION          MAINE + NYC
 

Sean McBride
 

Hey

Try using an A7sII with Sony Loxia primes.  Super small, 4K internal, and great low light capabilities.  Use a cage to create mount points then use the Matthews mounting rod system.  

Sean McBride.  Toronto DOP

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:46, nick.normanbutler@... wrote:

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

Thomas Gleeson
 

Be aware if you use a camera like a Sony DSLR that they have terrible rolling shutter and vibration from the bike can turn the shots to jello. If you mount to a person their body may insulate the high frequency vibrations but fast movement will see the verticals skew.

Tom Gleeson 
Sydney DOP

On 14 Dec 2017, at 9:22 am, Sean McBride <seanmcbr@...> wrote:

Hey

Try using an A7sII with Sony Loxia primes.  Super small, 4K internal, and great low light capabilities.  Use a cage to create mount points then use the Matthews mounting rod system.  

Sean McBride.  Toronto DOP

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:46, nick.normanbutler@... wrote:

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

Franz
 


On 13 Dec 2017, at 20:37, Kevin Brusie <kevin@...> wrote:
Or get a skilled motorcyclist (real bike, not moped) and sit on the rear seat facing backwards with a camera so you can shoot from the head on position of the moped. I have been a 'host motorcyclist' for this during local road races for coaches and camera men.

I have done that several times in different situations, movies, commercials, BBC, in different countries: make sure the motorcycle that you are filming from is properly rigged for that (a foot stand, modified seat etc -see attached) and that the rider is EXTREMELY skilled, ideally a film stunt rider, someone who understands camera angle (3/4 side often the best) and someone who rides with safety in mind for anyone involved.
A p[roper briefing before hand is mandatory, and ideally operator to rider comm is very beneficial (slow down, go faster, a bit on your left) and also bike to bike (stay further away, look to your right, chin up so I can see your face)
Wear proper safety gear! Back protection, at least one proper glove, elbows and shoulder pads, motorcycle leathers would be ideal.
In these situation red mist (look it up) is a real and harmful factor, be safe!
Franz
--
Franz Pagot AIC 
Cinematographer
BAFTA
MBKS GBCT


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
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Mako Koiwai
 

“... as its a Sony I’m guessing its better than the Go Pro, is the Sony RX0, Sonys new action cam.”

Amazing that this new RX0 is better then the GoPro6, well, because ... SONY. Remarkable ... can’t wait to see THEIR video.


Makofoto, S. Pasadena, Ca

jasecd@...
 

Hi Nick,

Not sure how good the low light performance needs to be (are we talking dusk or night?) and how big the camera can be, but along with the GoPro and RX0 I would consider the following: 

Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera
Panasonic GH5 - 4:4:2 10 bit.
Sony A6500 - small mirrorless, does 4k @ 100mbps
DJI Osmo with X5 camera 

I’d also look at the Zhiyun Crane M (small one handed gimbal) to add some stability - it can take these smaller cameras. It won’t take out any big shocks but can help with smaller vibrations. I’ve mounted mine on cars before and it’s worked well.

Best,

Jason


--
Jason Hall
DP // Camera
Bristol // London

Mike Thomas
 

Hi Nick,

 

Have a look at Sony’s new Action Cam, the DSC-RX0. It has the stacked sensor so doesn’t suffer from rolling shutter and I think is quite a bit more sensitive than the GoPros. Also can shoot high frame rates for some sexy slow motion shots.

 

Take Care

 

 

Mike

 

 

Mike Thomas

Sales Director

07768 647220

01895 825619

Top Teks Ltd

Bridge House

Royal Quay

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UB9 6JA

 

www.topteks.com

 

Top-Teks 300 (640x576)

 

 

 

From: cml-general@groups.io [mailto:cml-general@groups.io] On Behalf Of nick.normanbutler@...
Sent: 13 December 2017 17:47
To: cml-general@groups.io
Subject: [cml-general] Filming Motorbikes

 

Hello,

I am directing & filming a documentary for BBC about London's new crime wave ie thieves who ride around on mopeds snatching phones and handbags.

I want to film some glossy b-roll of mopeds riding at night and need advice considering my options.

Ideally I'd like to rig a camera to the bike but my employer would only allow me to mount small cameras such as go-pros because the risk of causing an RTA is too big if we mount anything much larger. Go-pros of course are not great in low-light, but perhaps I could light the bike with a very small light? If so, any recommendations? Alternatively any other very small cameras that are good in low light?

Other thoughts were filming with a proper camera from a sidecar or from a van riding alongside but both of these have drawbacks: sidecar gives limited shots and filming from a van is not 'onboard' the bike.

Any advice gratefully received.

Nick
London
www.nickn-b.com

Adrian O'Toole DOP/ Lighting Cameraman
 

The  Sony RXO is available for hire in London . I haven’t tested in anger as yet but I have been in two hire companies in London who have them in . Try it with one of the smaller gymbals should help 
with some of the gimbals . The fact it shoots S log is a bit of a game changer . The Z camera also looks a better bet than a gopro for night work 

Adrian O'Toole
 Cameraman London / Manchester 
+447788726298
Diary : contact Janie@the diaryagency.com
addotoole@...
www.adrianotoole.co.uk
Skype :adrian otoole
.............................................


On 14 Dec 2017, at 07:58, jasecd@... wrote:

Hi Nick,

Not sure how good the low light performance needs to be (are we talking dusk or night?) and how big the camera can be, but along with the GoPro and RX0 I would consider the following: 

Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera
Panasonic GH5 - 4:4:2 10 bit.
Sony A6500 - small mirrorless, does 4k @ 100mbps
DJI Osmo with X5 camera 

I’d also look at the Zhiyun Crane M (small one handed gimbal) to add some stability - it can take these smaller cameras. It won’t take out any big shocks but can help with smaller vibrations. I’ve mounted mine on cars before and it’s worked well.

Best,

Jason


--
Jason Hall
DP // Camera
Bristol // London

Franz
 

A small camera like the RX0 (tested it, very impressive) or gopro type fixed on the bike or on the rider’s body, will surely give you some interesting shots, however an editor will surely be more grateful if you cover it from another vehicle (pickup, van, 2cv, motorbike, you get the picture) especially using a zoom while filming the action. A dynamic zoom while following action, especially on motorbikes, contributes to a more exciting film, Bourne style.
Stabilisation is good, however nothing beats damn good handheld with dynamic zoom work at the right time, and any good editor will turn that into pure gold.
Just a thought.
Franz

PS - can’t believe I am promoting zoom work… but...
--
Franz Pagot AIC 
Cinematographer
BAFTA
MBKS GBCT


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
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skype: acquademon

Franz
 

Few wrote me privately, it is easier answering to list, but let’s limit this, not quite cinematography related, unless you are hit by a red misted stuntman while filming.

On 14 Dec 2017, at 10:16, 

Did you mean this 'red mist' or some other??

used in reference to a fit of extreme anger that temporarily clouds a person's judgement

Correct, an ‘angry mind' status experienced by stunt people and others who have to undertake high adrenaline tasks, including military personnel.
It ‘clouds’ your judgement, and gives you tunnel vision, therefore you suddenly find yourself doing everything at superspeed, ignoring safety margins even if discussed minutes earlier. Basically you charge yourself mentally beyond what you should do, because of peer pressure, macho behaviour, testosterone and adrenaline boosts, all mixed together, making your response to the task at hand not realistically reflecting the actual circumstances.
Seen it, experienced, many times, learned to deal with it. Training and experience will make you control it.
Franz


--
Franz Pagot AIC 
Cinematographer
BAFTA
MBKS GBCT


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
+44(0)207 287 9564 | www.wp-a.co.uk

mail@...
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mob UK +44 7770 520757
skype: acquademon


Emmanuel SUYS
 

Greetings,
Having worked quite often on bicycles,motorbikes and cars of all kinds
besides the choice of camera I would suggest to hire or at least speak
to a proper grip specialised on the matter. If budget allows:consider it
not as an expense, but an investment.

Cheers Manny Munich


On 13/12/17 18:46, nick.normanbutler@... wrote:

Any advice gratefully received.

-- 1st Asst Cinematography - 1st Asst Kinematografie - 1er Asst
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Scott Dorsey
 

The problem is so many of those small cameras have horrible rolling shutter
artifacts which makes for excruciating footage if they are mounted on a
platform that isn't stable. The wide lens of the Go-Pro helps somewhat
but I think you'll find the effect on a motorcycle is not so good.
--scott

Scott Dorsey
AN/N-6A Fan
Williamsburg, VA.

Brian Heller
 

Franz Pagot wrote:

Correct, an ‘angry mind' status experienced by stunt people and others who have to undertake high adrenaline tasks, including military personnel.
It ‘clouds’ your judgement, and gives you tunnel vision, therefore you suddenly find yourself doing everything at superspeed, ignoring safety margins even if discussed minutes earlier. Basically you charge yourself mentally beyond what you should do, because of peer pressure, macho behaviour, testosterone and adrenaline boosts, all mixed together, making your response to the task at hand not realistically reflecting the actual circumstances.
Seen it, experienced, many times, learned to deal with it. Training and experience will make you control it.
It’s not very often that you read a post on CML that may save lives or prevent serious injuries. The phenomenon Franz describes is very real. We should take it to heart.

Thank you, Franz.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

Rick Gerard
 

I would look at an OSMO. 4K, several good color profiles, decent data rate for a small camera, full control, good mobile app, incredible stabilization and there are some really clever mounts that you can use. Put a cable between the camera and the gimbal and you end up with a really tiny package that can be stuck to just about anything. There is a 1/4 20 hole in the base so you can attach it to just about any mount.
 

Rick Gerard
DP/VFX Supervisor
MovI Pro / Licensed Commercial Pilot Fixed Wing and UAV
Northern CA







Franz
 

You are way too kind Brian, I wish I was the phenomenon you so generously attribute...
I have seen my more than fair share of dead bodies when in the military, and unfortunately during my on set career too.
I volunteered up to recently as a paramedic, seen the best and worse of people, but I can’t do that anymore.
But if I can save just one more life, just one, sharing my experience online with the beautiful people of CML then that would be phenomenally good.
But I am no phenomenon, I just don’t have any more tears left.
Your words truly touched me…
Franz


On 14 Dec 2017, at 14:30, Brian Heller <brianheller1@...> wrote:

Franz Pagot wrote:

Correct, an ‘angry mind' status experienced by stunt people and others who have to undertake high adrenaline tasks, including military personnel.
It ‘clouds’ your judgement, and gives you tunnel vision, therefore you suddenly find yourself doing everything at superspeed, ignoring safety margins even if discussed minutes earlier. Basically you charge yourself mentally beyond what you should do, because of peer pressure, macho behaviour, testosterone and adrenaline boosts, all mixed together, making your response to the task at hand not realistically reflecting the actual circumstances.
Seen it, experienced, many times, learned to deal with it. Training and experience will make you control it.
It’s not very often that you read a post on CML that may save lives or prevent serious injuries. The phenomenon Franz describes is very real. We should take it to heart.

Thank you, Franz.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

Franz
 

DAMN… sorry everyone, clearly my previous post was supposed to be private.
Apologies.
Franz

--
Franz Pagot AIC 
Cinematographer
BAFTA
MBKS GBCT


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1219277/

Represented by WPA | Worldwide Production Agency
+44(0)207 287 9564 | www.wp-a.co.uk

mail@...
http://www.franzpagot.com

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mob UK +44 7770 520757
skype: acquademon


On 14 Dec 2017, at 17:11, Franz <franpagot@...> wrote:

Your words truly touched me…
Franz


On 14 Dec 2017, at 14:30, Brian Heller <brianheller1@...> wrote:

Franz Pagot wrote:

Correct, an ‘angry mind' status experienced by stunt people and others who have to undertake high adrenaline tasks, including military personnel.
It ‘clouds’ your judgement, and gives you tunnel vision, therefore you suddenly find yourself doing everything at superspeed, ignoring safety margins even if discussed minutes earlier. Basically you charge yourself mentally beyond what you should do, because of peer pressure, macho behaviour, testosterone and adrenaline boosts, all mixed together, making your response to the task at hand not realistically reflecting the actual circumstances.
Seen it, experienced, many times, learned to deal with it. Training and experience will make you control it.
It’s not very often that you read a post on CML that may save lives or prevent serious injuries. The phenomenon Franz describes is very real. We should take it to heart.

Thank you, Franz.

Brian Heller 
IA 600 DP

Douglas Glover
 

Hi Nick,

I agree the Sony A7S would be great for low light.  I've put it on a mountain bike before and the jello effect made the shot unusable.  I've mounted it on cars before at night and it worked great.  If the moped isn't going over rough terrain and the vibration isn't bad, it could be a good solution but still heavier than others.  

I've also used the Osmo with the X5R mounted to motorcycles before and it worked great.  It will give you a very different look from a fixed camera as the gimbal is always trying to right the pan and tilt.  It's a preference but I liked the look for that particular shoot.  The X5R can get a little heavy but it's much better in low light than the Osmo Plcan us.  With the plus, you can get the camera away from the bike a bit more for more dynamic shots.  
If you are in a chase vehicle and close enough, you can operate pan and tilt with the Osmo from a phone while shooting.  

I agree that Matthews Mini-Grip system works great for this kind of work.  A combination of this and Ram Mount gear is what I mostly use.  
If you can mount it to something to reduce vibration 

I've found a safe way to film car to bike on a budget is to use a movi or ronin on a Rig Wheels Cloud Mount.  The cloud mount sticks on to any metal surface with magnets.  It holds very well.  You can sit in the safety of the car and then remotely operate the vehicle.  


Good luck!


Doug Glover
DP
Los Angeles, CA

Glenn Lee Dicus
 

See picture below of me using a Cowboy Studio shoulder rig. 

What I have done with this rig is also use the chest strap to go hands free when not on a tandem bicycle to capture Marathoners.  I was able to track them, push in on them going against the traffic etc etc, all by panning the camera 90 degrees to the cameras motion.  I could even pan the 5D you see below 130 degrees to shoot back behind me over my shoulder. 

At 30$ when I first bought it, I’d say I have gotten my moneys worth out of it.  The build quality is not great, but will hold up to this kind of work.



Hope this helps.




Glenn Lee Dicus
IATSE (ICG Local 600)
310.903.7069
glenndicus@...


Dave Young
 

I suggest contacting Jason Jenkins at at Media Motos.

http://www.mediamotos.co.uk/  0845 5190977

They are very experienced and their bikes are converted to carry camera people to film pro cycling races etc.

I used them for this: https://vimeo.com/162173535

Feel free to get in touch if you need any more info.

Dave Young
Film-maker
Pod Films
07966 185 345





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