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FW: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks

Darren Oakley-Martin
 

A fascinating thread...

From: rk_broughton
Sent: ‎09/‎07/‎2017 14:01
To: Cambirds
Subject: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks

Interesting about the polygamy/polyandry. As the Marsh Tits have dwindled this has become more common in Monks Wood, as there's more odd/widowed birds that don't find a mate due to the declining number of recruits and birds in the landscape. I've had many years with excess males, but recently excess females too as things really go down the pan.

Marsh Tits never have a repeat if the nest is lost after the first half of incubation, and apparently Willow Tits rarely repeat at all (though there's limited info). That means they're more vulnerable to the effects of losses than are Great Tits, as they're more likely to have a total loss for the year.

I heard three begging fledged broods of Great Tits on one farm this morning.

Richard

On Sunday, 9 July 2017 10:42:23 UTC+1, Michael Holdsworth wrote:

It's certainly a colossal amount of legwork ever to systematically re-check for second broods. For that reason, I've no idea what the proportion is with my flycatchers. The situation is of course confused further by some very late arrivals/starts; obvious delay in some cases in finding a mate; and repeats due to predation/gales/gutter-flooding. However, this year we have again had an identifiable female back on eggs 7-10 days after the first lot fledged. I've read that the male can take them off to teach them the tricks of the trade for the fortnight that takes, before returning for nest-provisioning duties. But there again, we've again had this year cases of single mothers provisioning without any help from the male; and again some strong suggestions of bigamy/polygamy by naughty males....

Michael


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Darren Oakley-Martin
 


From: Peter Wilkinson
Sent: ‎08/‎07/‎2017 22:06
To: cambirds@...
Subject: Re: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks

I guess it's also just possible that birds that had not been able to
obtain a nest site early in the season get one after the first brood of
other adults has gone. Proving that, though, would require pretty
intensive trapping or watching of the adults. I have suspected it once
when the second clutch was so soon after the fledging of the first that
the original adults ought surely still have been with their young (but
I can't prove it, of course!).

Peter

On Sat, 2017-07-08 at 13:37 -0700, rk_broughton wrote:
> Great Tit second broods are an interesting thing. Back in the day it
> was thought that British great tits are single brooded, whereas on
> the continent double broods are common. This was thought to be
> climatic, with longer seasons in the south. It's so ingrained that to
> this day most major nestbox studies (e.g. Wytham) only check first
> broods, and don't have a protocol for checking for seconds in July.
> This is very typical for smaller box studies too (like Monks Wood).
> But with climate change it was predicted that we'd see an increase in
> second broods. Worth mentioning that true double/second broods are
> when the first brood has fledged successfully and become independent
> and then the adults have another go. That takes at least two months
> from nest-building to family dispersal. Not to be confused with a
> replacement brood, when the first nest fails and then the adults
> repeat. This is very common in Britain. Telling apart second broods
> from replacements isn't easy, you need ringed birds and detailed
> monitoring to know whether they've had a successful first attempt.
> This year I've also been seeing lots of late broods - heard some new
> fledglings today. But it's very hard to tell if they're true second
> broods, as we had a very early spring when lots of tits started
> laying, but then got hammered by poor weather in April/May, with a
> lot of chick mortality. So many of these birds failed quite late
> (chick stage) and have probably had repeated attempts, which aren't
> true second broods, just late replacements. No way of knowing,
> really, without ringing and a lot of legwork. 
>
> Never heard of Great Tits having a true third brood. Is that in BWP?
> Must check it. 
>
> Richard
>
> > I have Great Tits with chicks breeding in my Barn (alongside Barn
> > Owls, Jackdaws and Stock Doves + Blackbird earlier).
> > It seemed pretty late to me, but reading BWP, I had not realised
> > they can have 2nd or even 3rd broods. How unusual is it in Cambs?
> > Dick
> > Landbeach
> >
> >
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Sue Raven
 

Just a thought – there are 200 odd dormouse nest boxes up in Maulden Wood and they get used by tits (blue, great & occasionally marsh) in May/June.  I don’t think we’ve ever seen any later use by tits although we check monthly until October. If they do start having later broods (whether replacement or second) we should begin to pick this up? 

Sue

 

From: bedsbirds@groups.io [mailto:bedsbirds@groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Oakley-Martin
Sent: 09 July 2017 21:03
To: bedsbirds@groups.io
Subject: [bedsbirds] FW: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks

 


From: Peter Wilkinson
Sent: ‎08/‎07/‎2017 22:06
To: cambirds@...
Subject: Re: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks

I guess it's also just possible that birds that had not been able to
obtain a nest site early in the season get one after the first brood of
other adults has gone. Proving that, though, would require pretty
intensive trapping or watching of the adults. I have suspected it once
when the second clutch was so soon after the fledging of the first that
the original adults ought surely still have been with their young (but
I can't prove it, of course!).

Peter

On Sat, 2017-07-08 at 13:37 -0700, rk_broughton wrote:
> Great Tit second broods are an interesting thing. Back in the day it
> was thought that British great tits are single brooded, whereas on
> the continent double broods are common. This was thought to be
> climatic, with longer seasons in the south. It's so ingrained that to
> this day most major nestbox studies (e.g. Wytham) only check first
> broods, and don't have a protocol for checking for seconds in July.
> This is very typical for smaller box studies too (like Monks Wood).
> But with climate change it was predicted that we'd see an increase in
> second broods. Worth mentioning that true double/second broods are
> when the first brood has fledged successfully and become independent
> and then the adults have another go. That takes at least two months
> from nest-building to family dispersal. Not to be confused with a
> replacement brood, when the first nest fails and then the adults
> repeat. This is very common in Britain. Telling apart second broods
> from replacements isn't easy, you need ringed birds and detailed
> monitoring to know whether they've had a successful first attempt.
> This year I've also been seeing lots of late broods - heard some new
> fledglings today. But it's very hard to tell if they're true second
> broods, as we had a very early spring when lots of tits started
> laying, but then got hammered by poor weather in April/May, with a
> lot of chick mortality. So many of these birds failed quite late
> (chick stage) and have probably had repeated attempts, which aren't
> true second broods, just late replacements. No way of knowing,
> really, without ringing and a lot of legwork. 
>
> Never heard of Great Tits having a true third brood. Is that in BWP?
> Must check it. 
>
> Richard
>
> > I have Great Tits with chicks breeding in my Barn (alongside Barn
> > Owls, Jackdaws and Stock Doves + Blackbird earlier).
> > It seemed pretty late to me, but reading BWP, I had not realised
> > they can have 2nd or even 3rd broods. How unusual is it in Cambs?
> > Dick
> > Landbeach
> >
> >
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cambirds" group.
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> send an email to cambirds+unsubscribe@....
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Barry Nightingale
 

John Tomlin and I have been monitoring 19 nest boxes (raising Blue, Great and Coal Tits) in Southill Park for the third summer, visiting once a week during the nesting season. Towards the end of the season, when most of the successful clutches had flown (or in a few cases had perished), we were very surprised to find one box, where the Great Tits had already raised four young, with one of the presumed same pair of adults sitting on eggs again. By the following week the eggs had hatched but by the week after that the nest was empty. As there had not been enough time for the second brood to have been old enough to leave the nest we assumed that they had been predated. It was, though, further proof that Great Tits can be second-brooded.

Barry  


On Tuesday, 11 July 2017, 10:45, Sue Raven <Sue.Raven@...> wrote:


Just a thought – there are 200 odd dormouse nest boxes up in Maulden Wood and they get used by tits (blue, great & occasionally marsh) in May/June.  I don’t think we’ve ever seen any later use by tits although we check monthly until October. If they do start having later broods (whether replacement or second) we should begin to pick this up? 
Sue
 
From: bedsbirds@groups.io [mailto:bedsbirds@groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Oakley-Martin
Sent: 09 July 2017 21:03
To: bedsbirds@groups.io
Subject: [bedsbirds] FW: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
 

From: Peter Wilkinson
Sent: ‎08/‎07/‎2017 22:06
To: cambirds@...
Subject: Re: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
I guess it's also just possible that birds that had not been able to
obtain a nest site early in the season get one after the first brood of
other adults has gone. Proving that, though, would require pretty
intensive trapping or watching of the adults. I have suspected it once
when the second clutch was so soon after the fledging of the first that
the original adults ought surely still have been with their young (but
I can't prove it, of course!).

Peter

On Sat, 2017-07-08 at 13:37 -0700, rk_broughton wrote:
> Great Tit second broods are an interesting thing. Back in the day it
> was thought that British great tits are single brooded, whereas on
> the continent double broods are common. This was thought to be
> climatic, with longer seasons in the south. It's so ingrained that to
> this day most major nestbox studies (e.g. Wytham) only check first
> broods, and don't have a protocol for checking for seconds in July.
> This is very typical for smaller box studies too (like Monks Wood).
> But with climate change it was predicted that we'd see an increase in
> second broods. Worth mentioning that true double/second broods are
> when the first brood has fledged successfully and become independent
> and then the adults have another go. That takes at least two months
> from nest-building to family dispersal. Not to be confused with a
> replacement brood, when the first nest fails and then the adults
> repeat. This is very common in Britain. Telling apart second broods
> from replacements isn't easy, you need ringed birds and detailed
> monitoring to know whether they've had a successful first attempt.
> This year I've also been seeing lots of late broods - heard some new
> fledglings today. But it's very hard to tell if they're true second
> broods, as we had a very early spring when lots of tits started
> laying, but then got hammered by poor weather in April/May, with a
> lot of chick mortality. So many of these birds failed quite late
> (chick stage) and have probably had repeated attempts, which aren't
> true second broods, just late replacements. No way of knowing,
> really, without ringing and a lot of legwork. 
>
> Never heard of Great Tits having a true third brood. Is that in BWP?
> Must check it. 
>
> Richard
>
> > I have Great Tits with chicks breeding in my Barn (alongside Barn
> > Owls, Jackdaws and Stock Doves + Blackbird earlier).
> > It seemed pretty late to me, but reading BWP, I had not realised
> > they can have 2nd or even 3rd broods. How unusual is it in Cambs?
> > Dick
> > Landbeach
> >
> >
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cambirds" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to cambirds+unsubscribe@....
> To post to this group, send email to cambirds@....
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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John Tomlin
 

Since 2009 I have been involved with monitoring and submitting records to the BTO for a total of almost 600 nest boxes with close on 1600 Blue Tits and Great Tits recorded as fledging. Apart from a very few ‘late starters’ which could be attributed to second broods, (but never in the same box) or stating again after a previous failure, I have never witnessed the reuse of a nest box after the first clutch have fledged apart from the one Barry and I had at Southill this year with the second use having an inexplicable outcome. However as previously mentioned in other reports, without the birds being ringed it is impossible to establish if in fact they are second broods or the reuse of old nests by different adults. Another point to consider is that Blue Tits and Great Tits have an uncanny ability to time the hatching of their young with the first hatch of caterpillars, their main if not exclusive food species, very important given the size of the mouth of newly hatched birds, especially Blue Tits, as they initially required the caterpillars when they too are equally very tiny. Prolonging their breeding attempts or having a second brooding MAY be too late from a manageable food supply of suitably sized caterpillars standpoint. 

The enormous amount of food required to support a growing brood could also make second broods rare and I have added a part of an article I put together for the January Hobby (number 143) with extracts from ‘Window into a Nest Box” by Geraldine Lux Flanagan and Sean Morris (by kind permission of Penguin Books Ltd): “A typical clutch of 7 young Blue Tits were observed to consume between 600 and 1,000 caterpillars per day (average say 800*), that’s around 115 each chick and during their nominal 21 days in the nest prior to fledging, equates to around 17,000 total, in excess of 2,400 each bird.

Relate these facts to the 190 birds that fledged from nest boxes at the Dunstable Sewage Treatment Works in 2015 that’s almost 22,000 caterpillars per day - 460,000 over the 21 day fledging period (excluding the 36 young that unfortunately died before fledging)”.

John T.



On 11 Jul 2017, at 11:27, Barry Nightingale <barrynightingale154@...> wrote:

John Tomlin and I have been monitoring 19 nest boxes (raising Blue, Great and Coal Tits) in Southill Park for the third summer, visiting once a week during the nesting season. Towards the end of the season, when most of the successful clutches had flown (or in a few cases had perished), we were very surprised to find one box, where the Great Tits had already raised four young, with one of the presumed same pair of adults sitting on eggs again. By the following week the eggs had hatched but by the week after that the nest was empty. As there had not been enough time for the second brood to have been old enough to leave the nest we assumed that they had been predated. It was, though, further proof that Great Tits can be second-brooded.

Barry  


On Tuesday, 11 July 2017, 10:45, Sue Raven <Sue.Raven@...> wrote:


Just a thought – there are 200 odd dormouse nest boxes up in Maulden Wood and they get used by tits (blue, great & occasionally marsh) in May/June.  I don’t think we’ve ever seen any later use by tits although we check monthly until October. If they do start having later broods (whether replacement or second) we should begin to pick this up? 
Sue
 
From: bedsbirds@groups.io [mailto:bedsbirds@groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Oakley-Martin
Sent: 09 July 2017 21:03
To: bedsbirds@groups.io
Subject: [bedsbirds] FW: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
 

From: Peter Wilkinson
Sent: ‎08/‎07/‎2017 22:06
To: cambirds@...
Subject: Re: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
I guess it's also just possible that birds that had not been able to
obtain a nest site early in the season get one after the first brood of
other adults has gone. Proving that, though, would require pretty
intensive trapping or watching of the adults. I have suspected it once
when the second clutch was so soon after the fledging of the first that
the original adults ought surely still have been with their young (but
I can't prove it, of course!).

Peter

On Sat, 2017-07-08 at 13:37 -0700, rk_broughton wrote:
> Great Tit second broods are an interesting thing. Back in the day it
> was thought that British great tits are single brooded, whereas on
> the continent double broods are common. This was thought to be
> climatic, with longer seasons in the south. It's so ingrained that to
> this day most major nestbox studies (e.g. Wytham) only check first
> broods, and don't have a protocol for checking for seconds in July.
> This is very typical for smaller box studies too (like Monks Wood).
> But with climate change it was predicted that we'd see an increase in
> second broods. Worth mentioning that true double/second broods are
> when the first brood has fledged successfully and become independent
> and then the adults have another go. That takes at least two months
> from nest-building to family dispersal. Not to be confused with a
> replacement brood, when the first nest fails and then the adults
> repeat. This is very common in Britain. Telling apart second broods
> from replacements isn't easy, you need ringed birds and detailed
> monitoring to know whether they've had a successful first attempt.
> This year I've also been seeing lots of late broods - heard some new
> fledglings today. But it's very hard to tell if they're true second
> broods, as we had a very early spring when lots of tits started
> laying, but then got hammered by poor weather in April/May, with a
> lot of chick mortality. So many of these birds failed quite late
> (chick stage) and have probably had repeated attempts, which aren't
> true second broods, just late replacements. No way of knowing,
> really, without ringing and a lot of legwork. 
> 
> Never heard of Great Tits having a true third brood. Is that in BWP?
> Must check it. 
> 
> Richard
> 
> > I have Great Tits with chicks breeding in my Barn (alongside Barn
> > Owls, Jackdaws and Stock Doves + Blackbird earlier).
> > It seemed pretty late to me, but reading BWP, I had not realised
> > they can have 2nd or even 3rd broods. How unusual is it in Cambs?
> > Dick
> > Landbeach
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cambirds" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to cambirds+unsubscribe@....
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On 11 Jul 2017, at 11:27, Barry Nightingale <barrynightingale154@...> wrote:

John Tomlin and I have been monitoring 19 nest boxes (raising Blue, Great and Coal Tits) in Southill Park for the third summer, visiting once a week during the nesting season. Towards the end of the season, when most of the successful clutches had flown (or in a few cases had perished), we were very surprised to find one box, where the Great Tits had already raised four young, with one of the presumed same pair of adults sitting on eggs again. By the following week the eggs had hatched but by the week after that the nest was empty. As there had not been enough time for the second brood to have been old enough to leave the nest we assumed that they had been predated. It was, though, further proof that Great Tits can be second-brooded.

Barry  


On Tuesday, 11 July 2017, 10:45, Sue Raven <Sue.Raven@...> wrote:


Just a thought – there are 200 odd dormouse nest boxes up in Maulden Wood and they get used by tits (blue, great & occasionally marsh) in May/June.  I don’t think we’ve ever seen any later use by tits although we check monthly until October. If they do start having later broods (whether replacement or second) we should begin to pick this up? 
Sue
 
From: bedsbirds@groups.io [mailto:bedsbirds@groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Oakley-Martin
Sent: 09 July 2017 21:03
To: bedsbirds@groups.io
Subject: [bedsbirds] FW: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
 

From: Peter Wilkinson
Sent: ‎08/‎07/‎2017 22:06
To: cambirds@...
Subject: Re: [cambirds] Re: Great tits with chicks
I guess it's also just possible that birds that had not been able to
obtain a nest site early in the season get one after the first brood of
other adults has gone. Proving that, though, would require pretty
intensive trapping or watching of the adults. I have suspected it once
when the second clutch was so soon after the fledging of the first that
the original adults ought surely still have been with their young (but
I can't prove it, of course!).

Peter

On Sat, 2017-07-08 at 13:37 -0700, rk_broughton wrote:
> Great Tit second broods are an interesting thing. Back in the day it
> was thought that British great tits are single brooded, whereas on
> the continent double broods are common. This was thought to be
> climatic, with longer seasons in the south. It's so ingrained that to
> this day most major nestbox studies (e.g. Wytham) only check first
> broods, and don't have a protocol for checking for seconds in July.
> This is very typical for smaller box studies too (like Monks Wood).
> But with climate change it was predicted that we'd see an increase in
> second broods. Worth mentioning that true double/second broods are
> when the first brood has fledged successfully and become independent
> and then the adults have another go. That takes at least two months
> from nest-building to family dispersal. Not to be confused with a
> replacement brood, when the first nest fails and then the adults
> repeat. This is very common in Britain. Telling apart second broods
> from replacements isn't easy, you need ringed birds and detailed
> monitoring to know whether they've had a successful first attempt.
> This year I've also been seeing lots of late broods - heard some new
> fledglings today. But it's very hard to tell if they're true second
> broods, as we had a very early spring when lots of tits started
> laying, but then got hammered by poor weather in April/May, with a
> lot of chick mortality. So many of these birds failed quite late
> (chick stage) and have probably had repeated attempts, which aren't
> true second broods, just late replacements. No way of knowing,
> really, without ringing and a lot of legwork. 
> 
> Never heard of Great Tits having a true third brood. Is that in BWP?
> Must check it. 
> 
> Richard
> 
> > I have Great Tits with chicks breeding in my Barn (alongside Barn
> > Owls, Jackdaws and Stock Doves + Blackbird earlier).
> > It seemed pretty late to me, but reading BWP, I had not realised
> > they can have 2nd or even 3rd broods. How unusual is it in Cambs?
> > Dick
> > Landbeach
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cambirds" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to cambirds+unsubscribe@....
> To post to this group, send email to cambirds@....
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