Date   
Re: 64 bit MAC software.

R NBW
 

Richard
I've installed BBCSDL on Windows, MacOS and Android.  I'm happy to say it works on them all.  I must say, however, that I'm not likely to use it much on MacOS ( a MacMini 2012 bought second hand to try out).  I don't like the MacOS much and I'm always glad to get back to Windows.  In fact I run Windows 10 on the MacMini in Parallels, where the installed version of BBCSDL works well.

I don't think that Mac users associate BBC Basic with the Mac, so I think the user base is likely to be rather small,  so I think your resources are probably better directed to the other platforms.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Russell <news@...>
To: bb4w@groups.io
Sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: [bb4w] 64 bit MAC software.

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 04:37 am, dai_m_leeds wrote:
I think we need to bite the bullet
You've said the same before, and I've noted it, but you've been a lone voice in that opinion so far.  If I believed that most BBC BASIC users were prepared to "bite the bullet" - that is to accept the need to modify many of their programs and learn 'new ways' of doing things - the decision would be easy.  But I suspect, and fear, that a large majority of users are in fact quite change-averse.  How many dyed-in-the-wool BB4W users have even taken enough interest in BBCSDL to install it on their Windows PCs, despite the compatibility with BB4W being excellent in comparison?  Even you, I think, have been reluctant to embrace BBCSDL.

Richard.

Re: 64 bit MAC software.

Richard Russell
 

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 04:37 am, dai_m_leeds wrote:
I think we need to bite the bullet
You've said the same before, and I've noted it, but you've been a lone voice in that opinion so far.  If I believed that most BBC BASIC users were prepared to "bite the bullet" - that is to accept the need to modify many of their programs and learn 'new ways' of doing things - the decision would be easy.  But I suspect, and fear, that a large majority of users are in fact quite change-averse.  How many dyed-in-the-wool BB4W users have even taken enough interest in BBCSDL to install it on their Windows PCs, despite the compatibility with BB4W being excellent in comparison?  Even you, I think, have been reluctant to embrace BBCSDL.

Richard.

Re: Should I bundle Rubik.bbc with the Android edition? #poll

Richard Russell
 

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 04:31 am, dai_m_leeds wrote:
I've voted no, since that would roughly double the space taken by the download
How do you get double?  The current APK is approximately 8 Mbytes, the zipped Rubik's cube tables are approximately 2.7 Mbytes, so that's roughly a 34% increase by my reckoning.

Richard.

Re: 64 bit MAC software.

dai_m_leeds
 

OK, if you want views, here's mine. A 64 bit version would clearly be of value to the Mac-using community, of whom I am not one. In the longer term it might well be of value to others. From previous discussions it is clear that a 64 bit version would have significant incompatibilities with older versions, but I think we need to bite the bullet and accept that this is a fork-point: the 64 bit version will represent a different path, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Given that, it might offer an opportunity to revisit any other issues where you have gone for compatibility over optimisation, if you wished.

Best wishes,

D

Re: Should I bundle Rubik.bbc with the Android edition? #poll

dai_m_leeds
 

Hi Richard,

I've voted no, since that would roughly double the space taken by the download, on devices which are often fairly memory-limited, but I don't feel  strongly about it - it's still quite small compared to many apps!

Is there any scope for including a "wrapper", which would say "I'll need to download 6MB of data the first time I run, is that OK?"?

Best wishes,

D

Should I bundle Rubik.bbc with the Android edition? #poll

Richard Russell
 

I know it's rather pathetic to create a poll for such a trivial question, but what the heck.  I currently bundle Rubik.bbc with the desktop editions of BBCSDL but not with the Android edition.  The main reason is its size: there are 6 Mbytes of data tables (less when zipped) that the program uses to solve the cube, and I was concerned not to bloat the already quite large APK.  There are also issues of controlling it from a touchscreen, but not insurmountable.

It's a visually attractive program and an impressive demo of what BBC BASIC can achieve, and as such something that perhaps people would like to have on their phone or tablet without the hassle of copying it across themselves.  So should I add it to the Android bundle or not?  Please try to resist the temptation to vote 'don't care', that doesn't help me at all.

Thank you for voting. Results will be available when the poll is closed.


Re: 64 bit MAC software.

Richard Russell
 

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 10:17 am, Richard Weir wrote:
As a person who doesn't use Mac OS, I feel I have no voice in this matter, except to say it seems a shame
At least you are engaging in the issue!  I don't feel that I can - or should - make decisions that will affect the future of BBC BASIC on my own.  I need - somehow - to get people to take an interest in the 64-bit question, even if personally they are content to use only BBC BASIC for Windows.  Perversely, I'd actually quite like Microsoft to announce that Windows is dropping support for 32-bit apps because that would concentrate the mind wonderfully, but I don't expect it to happen soon.

Richard.

Re: 64 bit MAC software.

Richard Weir
 

As a person who doesn't use Mac OS, I feel I have no voice in this matter, except to say it seems a shame, but there's only so much small-time users and developers can do when big companies make such decisions.

Richard Weir

Re: 64 bit MAC software.

Richard Russell
 

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 10:33 am, Richard Russell wrote:
I would ideally like to have a serious discussion with BBC BASIC users about all the issues
Unless somebody responds to the contrary, I am going to assume that nobody is unduly concerned about BBC BASIC continuing to be available for Mac OS in the long term, so that when support for 32-bit apps is dropped by Apple it will simply cease to work.  Exactly when that will be has not been announced, but I think it is highly likely to be within the next couple of years.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Richard

Once again, thank you for your patience. I am (slowly at my age!) beginning to grasp the big picture of how everything fits together re apps on the Android.

My main aim right now is to implement some very simple Android apps that will let me remotely control (via the cloud) some IoT devices at home. I can do this already via the apps that come with the devices, but I have some homework to do to see how they achieve this (comms protocols, etc). I wonder if anyone else here has tried to do anything like this?

P.S. I understood what you meant about "Paste". Trouble is, there is no mention of the command "Paste" or "Paste File" or "Paste Anything" in the menu on my phone, not even greyed out. Just "Copy" and a few others. More homework still needed.

Ian

On 21/02/2018 20:33, Richard Russell wrote:
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me,
What other libraries?  I'm very confused (not for the first time).

> there is no matching paste function.
I realised afterwards that it's actually called 'Paste file', but I thought you'd work out what I meant! Also remember that it's a 'context sensitive' menu (a long-press is like a right-click in Windows) so you will only see that item if you long-press where there *isn't* a file. It's all described at the web page to which I linked.
Richard.

BBC BASIC in 'Hello World' magazine

Richard Russell
 

The last-but-one edition of Hello World magazine contains a short article by a teacher explaining why he still teaches BBC BASIC (page 71). Admittedly he is referring to using a BBC Micro emulator, and seems to think that the difficulties of non-WYSIWYG editing are actually beneficial in forcing the students to "pay attention"! I'm not sure he even knows about the Copy Key. rolleyes

But nevertheless it demonstrates that there is still interest in BBC BASIC within the teaching profession today.

Richard,

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me,
What other libraries?  I'm very confused (not for the first time).

there is no matching paste function.

I realised afterwards that it's actually called 'Paste file', but I thought you'd work out what I meant! Also remember that it's a 'context sensitive' menu (a long-press is like a right-click in Windows) so you will only see that item if you long-press where there isn't a file. It's all described at the web page to which I linked.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Thanks Richard

Since my last message I have taken another look at your BBCSDL examples, and realised that the DLGDEMO you provided was what I was looking for. I will take a closer look at the code to see how you have adapted the bbc program for Android.

Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me, at g3nrw@...

However, I encountered a minor snag re getting libraries into the @lib folder on the phone. I can copy any file I see in @usr, but there is no matching paste function. More digging needed.

--
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3nrw@...

***** Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590
***** Editor: IC-7300 Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/IC-7300

On 21/02/2018 14:12, Richard Russell wrote:
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:37 am, Richard Russell wrote:
all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for
BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied.
Just a clarification to that.  In the release announcement for BBCSDL v0.20a I stated that the 'timerlib' and 'eventlib' libraries are now included, and so they are but owing solely to my stupidity they *aren't* in the Android edition.  If you want either of those libraries, then you can copy them from (say) the Windows edition of BBCSDL onto an Android device and they should work.  I will correct the omission in a future release, if there is one.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:37 am, Richard Russell wrote:
all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied.
Just a clarification to that.  In the release announcement for BBCSDL v0.20a I stated that the 'timerlib' and 'eventlib' libraries are now included, and so they are but owing solely to my stupidity they aren't in the Android edition.  If you want either of those libraries, then you can copy them from (say) the Windows edition of BBCSDL onto an Android device and they should work.  I will correct the omission in a future release, if there is one.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 04:16 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
I have successfully copied one of your original examples DLGDEMO.BBC from the PC into the *@usr$* folder
In fact there is a version of DLGDEMO, already adapted for BBCSDL, supplied as one of the example programs (in the 'examples/general' folder).  Whilst it works in Android, I don't believe it brings up the on-screen keyboard so entering text probably requires an external (e.g. Bluetooth) keyboard.  Dialogue boxes are somewhat foreign to Android.

>  how do I get library files into the *@lib$* folder?

The easiest way is initially to copy them into the @usr$ folder, e.g. via a USB link as you have been doing, and once there to transfer them into the @lib$ folder using the facilities available within 'touchide.bbc'. So, long-press on the file in @usr$, select 'Cut' from the menu, navigate to the @lib$ folder, long-press in the empty area, and select 'Paste' from the menu. These instructions can also be found at the web site.

However I wouldn't expect that often to be useful, because all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied. Any libraries that aren't already included are either practically impossible to port (e.g. those that are fundamentally tied to Windows, such as GDIPLIB) or would be so difficult that even I haven't attempted it!

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Another question if I may.

Following your instructions I have successfully copied one of your original examples DLGDEMO.BBC from the PC into the *@usr$* folder at Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files on the phone.

However, it does not run properly, presumably because the WINLIB2.BBC library file is missing. Question is: how do I get library files into the *@lib$* folder?

Ian

On 20/02/2018 09:32, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?
As you say I have documented that before, but I am happy to do so again.  The location can vary a little from one device to another, but typically it will be something like *Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files/*  (this corresponds to the *@usr$* folder in BBC BASIC, so you will need to look in that folder to find any programs you have copied there).
Of course with my new *BBC2APK* utility now being in beta test, you also have the possibility of creating a completely self-contained Android App that is independent of BBC BASIC and can be distributed (or sold) as you wish.  But you will in any case have wanted to test your program thoroughly using BBC BASIC on Android first.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Richard

I told you I was still learning :-) I have just discovered the Menu button and what it does. Problem solved.

Incidentally, I am running Lollipop v5.1.1

Ian

On 20/02/2018 16:31, Richard Russell wrote:
Out of interest, what version of Android are you running?  Pre-KitKat the menu button really did bring up a menu (!), so in those days to close an app you had to *hold down *the menu button and then swipe - not exactly difficult but slightly more effort.  I've been assuming that you're running something more recent so that the menu button directly leads you to the 'close apps' screen.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 08:29 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re "closing and restarting BBC BASIC", I still don't see how to do that.
I'm not really understanding what your difficulty is, sorry.  I'm suggesting that you use the same 'close app' action as you would for any other app: that is to tap the menu button, which takes you directly to the 'open apps' screen on modern versions of Android, and then swipe it away (or you may find there is a Close All button; there is on my Samsung tablet).

As I said in my previous reply, if you're using an ancient version of Android (Jelly Bean being the only one with this characteristic that will also run BBC BASIC) the Menu button still had its original purpose of opening a menu, and in that case you have to long-press the button in order to bring up the open apps screen.

But either way, if you don't routinely close apps when you have finished with them, every single app you have ever started since last rebooting the device will still be running in the background!

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

Out of interest, what version of Android are you running?  Pre-KitKat the menu button really did bring up a menu (!), so in those days to close an app you had to hold down the menu button and then swipe - not exactly difficult but slightly more effort.  I've been assuming that you're running something more recent so that the menu button directly leads you to the 'close apps' screen.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Hmmmm. Understood about the Immediate Mode.

Re "closing and restarting BBC BASIC", I still don't see how to do that. I have the ">" command screen and the keypad visible again now. Pressing the Android back key just displays another "Escape" message then another ">" on the command screen.

If I then press the Android refresh key, the BBC Basic icon re-appears, but when I click on that it doesn't restart Basic. It just returns to the command screen I've been trying to escape from.

I will now go away and experiment some more before coming back here for more help. I'm sure most of my problems are due to not yet fully understanding this new-fangled smart phone.

Ian

On 20/02/2018 15:57, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 07:35 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
I had to power down the phone and start it again to restore proper
control.
That sounds bad!  That's never been required here, and nor should it. When you say "to restore proper control" to what extent was full control not returned by closing-and-restarting BBC BASIC?  That should have re-initialised everything.

I now see the helpful instruction to press the Android back key twice to escape.
No, that's not going to help you - it's specifically to get you back to the menu after *deliberately* entering immediate mode. But it won't have that effect on a crash or an accidental exit to immediate mode.
Before you go any further I would experiment with repeatedly closing and re-opening BBC BASIC. That should be absolutely fine, just as it should be with all other apps, and any 'loss of control' requiring a reboot indicates that something is seriously wrong.
Richard.
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