Date   

Re: 64 bit MAC software.

Richard Russell
 

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 10:33 am, Richard Russell wrote:
I would ideally like to have a serious discussion with BBC BASIC users about all the issues
Unless somebody responds to the contrary, I am going to assume that nobody is unduly concerned about BBC BASIC continuing to be available for Mac OS in the long term, so that when support for 32-bit apps is dropped by Apple it will simply cease to work.  Exactly when that will be has not been announced, but I think it is highly likely to be within the next couple of years.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Richard

Once again, thank you for your patience. I am (slowly at my age!) beginning to grasp the big picture of how everything fits together re apps on the Android.

My main aim right now is to implement some very simple Android apps that will let me remotely control (via the cloud) some IoT devices at home. I can do this already via the apps that come with the devices, but I have some homework to do to see how they achieve this (comms protocols, etc). I wonder if anyone else here has tried to do anything like this?

P.S. I understood what you meant about "Paste". Trouble is, there is no mention of the command "Paste" or "Paste File" or "Paste Anything" in the menu on my phone, not even greyed out. Just "Copy" and a few others. More homework still needed.

Ian

On 21/02/2018 20:33, Richard Russell wrote:
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me,
What other libraries?  I'm very confused (not for the first time).

> there is no matching paste function.
I realised afterwards that it's actually called 'Paste file', but I thought you'd work out what I meant! Also remember that it's a 'context sensitive' menu (a long-press is like a right-click in Windows) so you will only see that item if you long-press where there *isn't* a file. It's all described at the web page to which I linked.
Richard.

BBC BASIC in 'Hello World' magazine

Richard Russell
 

The last-but-one edition of Hello World magazine contains a short article by a teacher explaining why he still teaches BBC BASIC (page 71). Admittedly he is referring to using a BBC Micro emulator, and seems to think that the difficulties of non-WYSIWYG editing are actually beneficial in forcing the students to "pay attention"! I'm not sure he even knows about the Copy Key. rolleyes

But nevertheless it demonstrates that there is still interest in BBC BASIC within the teaching profession today.

Richard,

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me,
What other libraries?  I'm very confused (not for the first time).

there is no matching paste function.

I realised afterwards that it's actually called 'Paste file', but I thought you'd work out what I meant! Also remember that it's a 'context sensitive' menu (a long-press is like a right-click in Windows) so you will only see that item if you long-press where there isn't a file. It's all described at the web page to which I linked.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Thanks Richard

Since my last message I have taken another look at your BBCSDL examples, and realised that the DLGDEMO you provided was what I was looking for. I will take a closer look at the code to see how you have adapted the bbc program for Android.

Re the other libraries, yes please email them to me, at g3nrw@...

However, I encountered a minor snag re getting libraries into the@libfolder on the phone. I can copy any file I see in @usr, but there is no matching paste function. More digging needed.

--
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3nrw@...

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On 21/02/2018 14:12, Richard Russell wrote:
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:37 am, Richard Russell wrote:
all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for
BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied.
Just a clarification to that.  In the release announcement for BBCSDL v0.20a I stated that the 'timerlib' and 'eventlib' libraries are now included, and so they are but owing solely to my stupidity they *aren't* in the Android edition.  If you want either of those libraries, then you can copy them from (say) the Windows edition of BBCSDL onto an Android device and they should work.  I will correct the omission in a future release, if there is one.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:37 am, Richard Russell wrote:
all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied.
Just a clarification to that.  In the release announcement for BBCSDL v0.20a I stated that the 'timerlib' and 'eventlib' libraries are now included, and so they are but owing solely to my stupidity they aren't in the Android edition.  If you want either of those libraries, then you can copy them from (say) the Windows edition of BBCSDL onto an Android device and they should work.  I will correct the omission in a future release, if there is one.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 04:16 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
I have successfully copied one of your original examples DLGDEMO.BBC from the PC into the *@usr$* folder
In fact there is a version of DLGDEMO, already adapted for BBCSDL, supplied as one of the example programs (in the 'examples/general' folder).  Whilst it works in Android, I don't believe it brings up the on-screen keyboard so entering text probably requires an external (e.g. Bluetooth) keyboard.  Dialogue boxes are somewhat foreign to Android.

>  how do I get library files into the *@lib$* folder?

The easiest way is initially to copy them into the @usr$ folder, e.g. via a USB link as you have been doing, and once there to transfer them into the @lib$ folder using the facilities available within 'touchide.bbc'. So, long-press on the file in @usr$, select 'Cut' from the menu, navigate to the @lib$ folder, long-press in the empty area, and select 'Paste' from the menu. These instructions can also be found at the web site.

However I wouldn't expect that often to be useful, because all the BB4W libraries that can be straightforwardly adapted for BBCSDL already have been, and are supplied. Any libraries that aren't already included are either practically impossible to port (e.g. those that are fundamentally tied to Windows, such as GDIPLIB) or would be so difficult that even I haven't attempted it!

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Another question if I may.

Following your instructions I have successfully copied one of your original examples DLGDEMO.BBC from the PC into the *@usr$* folder at Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files on the phone.

However, it does not run properly, presumably because the WINLIB2.BBC library file is missing. Question is: how do I get library files into the *@lib$* folder?

Ian

On 20/02/2018 09:32, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?
As you say I have documented that before, but I am happy to do so again.  The location can vary a little from one device to another, but typically it will be something like *Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files/*  (this corresponds to the *@usr$* folder in BBC BASIC, so you will need to look in that folder to find any programs you have copied there).
Of course with my new *BBC2APK* utility now being in beta test, you also have the possibility of creating a completely self-contained Android App that is independent of BBC BASIC and can be distributed (or sold) as you wish.  But you will in any case have wanted to test your program thoroughly using BBC BASIC on Android first.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Richard

I told you I was still learning :-) I have just discovered the Menu button and what it does. Problem solved.

Incidentally, I am running Lollipop v5.1.1

Ian

On 20/02/2018 16:31, Richard Russell wrote:
Out of interest, what version of Android are you running?  Pre-KitKat the menu button really did bring up a menu (!), so in those days to close an app you had to *hold down *the menu button and then swipe - not exactly difficult but slightly more effort.  I've been assuming that you're running something more recent so that the menu button directly leads you to the 'close apps' screen.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 08:29 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
Re "closing and restarting BBC BASIC", I still don't see how to do that.
I'm not really understanding what your difficulty is, sorry.  I'm suggesting that you use the same 'close app' action as you would for any other app: that is to tap the menu button, which takes you directly to the 'open apps' screen on modern versions of Android, and then swipe it away (or you may find there is a Close All button; there is on my Samsung tablet).

As I said in my previous reply, if you're using an ancient version of Android (Jelly Bean being the only one with this characteristic that will also run BBC BASIC) the Menu button still had its original purpose of opening a menu, and in that case you have to long-press the button in order to bring up the open apps screen.

But either way, if you don't routinely close apps when you have finished with them, every single app you have ever started since last rebooting the device will still be running in the background!

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

Out of interest, what version of Android are you running?  Pre-KitKat the menu button really did bring up a menu (!), so in those days to close an app you had to hold down the menu button and then swipe - not exactly difficult but slightly more effort.  I've been assuming that you're running something more recent so that the menu button directly leads you to the 'close apps' screen.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Hmmmm. Understood about the Immediate Mode.

Re "closing and restarting BBC BASIC", I still don't see how to do that. I have the ">" command screen and the keypad visible again now. Pressing the Android back key just displays another "Escape" message then another ">" on the command screen.

If I then press the Android refresh key, the BBC Basic icon re-appears, but when I click on that it doesn't restart Basic. It just returns to the command screen I've been trying to escape from.

I will now go away and experiment some more before coming back here for more help. I'm sure most of my problems are due to not yet fully understanding this new-fangled smart phone.

Ian

On 20/02/2018 15:57, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 07:35 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
I had to power down the phone and start it again to restore proper
control.
That sounds bad!  That's never been required here, and nor should it. When you say "to restore proper control" to what extent was full control not returned by closing-and-restarting BBC BASIC?  That should have re-initialised everything.

I now see the helpful instruction to press the Android back key twice to escape.
No, that's not going to help you - it's specifically to get you back to the menu after *deliberately* entering immediate mode. But it won't have that effect on a crash or an accidental exit to immediate mode.
Before you go any further I would experiment with repeatedly closing and re-opening BBC BASIC. That should be absolutely fine, just as it should be with all other apps, and any 'loss of control' requiring a reboot indicates that something is seriously wrong.
Richard.
_._,_._,_

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 07:35 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
I had to power down the phone and start it again to restore proper control.
That sounds bad!  That's never been required here, and nor should it.  When you say "to restore proper control" to what extent was full control not returned by closing-and-restarting BBC BASIC?  That should have re-initialised everything.

> I now see the helpful instruction to press the Android back key twice to escape.

No, that's not going to help you - it's specifically to get you back to the menu after deliberately entering immediate mode. But it won't have that effect on a crash or an accidental exit to immediate mode.

Before you go any further I would experiment with repeatedly closing and re-opening BBC BASIC. That should be absolutely fine, just as it should be with all other apps, and any 'loss of control' requiring a reboot indicates that something is seriously wrong.

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Thanks again Richard

I have no quarrel with that, but I had to power down the phone and start it again to restore proper control. However, trying some other apps that display the command window, I now see the helpful instruction to press the Android back key twice to escape.

Onwards and upwards!

Ian

On 20/02/2018 15:23, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 07:00 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
How do I get out of this?
Close BBC BASIC and open it again.  It's inevitable that a general purpose programming language may occasionally crash, or exit to immediate mode etc. in which case you've got no choice but to close the app and start again.  I'm one of those people who (rightly or wrongly) don't like apps running in the background anyway, so it's second nature for me to close everything. I know some claim that's not actually a good idea; but with BBC BASIC there will be occasions - not often, hopefully, but some - when you have no choice.
If you don't routinely close your apps you may get a surprise when you see how many are running in the background!
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 07:00 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
How do I get out of this?
Close BBC BASIC and open it again.  It's inevitable that a general purpose programming language may occasionally crash, or exit to immediate mode etc. in which case you've got no choice but to close the app and start again.  I'm one of those people who (rightly or wrongly) don't like apps running in the background anyway, so it's second nature for me to close everything. I know some claim that's not actually a good idea; but with BBC BASIC there will be occasions - not often, hopefully, but some - when you have no choice.

If you don't routinely close your apps you may get a surprise when you see how many are running in the background!

Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Getting warmer. BBC Basic is now installed and working on the phone, and I have seen a list of demo apps and tried some.

However, then I selected another app from the list (unfortunately I can't remember which one it was). Now all I see is a command window with the ">" command prompt, and a keypad. Trouble is, I can't see how to escape from this. I tried exit, quit, bye, but all I get is the helpful error message "Mistake", followed by a new ">" prompt.

How do I get out of this?

Ian

On 20/02/2018 09:32, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?
As you say I have documented that before, but I am happy to do so again.  The location can vary a little from one device to another, but typically it will be something like *Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files/*  (this corresponds to the *@usr$* folder in BBC BASIC, so you will need to look in that folder to find any programs you have copied there).
Of course with my new *BBC2APK* utility now being in beta test, you also have the possibility of creating a completely self-contained Android App that is independent of BBC BASIC and can be distributed (or sold) as you wish.  But you will in any case have wanted to test your program thoroughly using BBC BASIC on Android first.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Many thanks Richard. I will try this later today.

Ian

On 20/02/2018 09:32, Richard Russell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?
As you say I have documented that before, but I am happy to do so again.  The location can vary a little from one device to another, but typically it will be something like *Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files/*  (this corresponds to the *@usr$* folder in BBC BASIC, so you will need to look in that folder to find any programs you have copied there).
Of course with my new *BBC2APK* utility now being in beta test, you also have the possibility of creating a completely self-contained Android App that is independent of BBC BASIC and can be distributed (or sold) as you wish.  But you will in any case have wanted to test your program thoroughly using BBC BASIC on Android first.
Richard.

Re: The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Richard Russell
 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03 am, Ian_Wade_G3NRW wrote:
where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?
As you say I have documented that before, but I am happy to do so again.  The location can vary a little from one device to another, but typically it will be something like Android/data/com.rtrussell.bbcbasic/files/  (this corresponds to the @usr$ folder in BBC BASIC, so you will need to look in that folder to find any programs you have copied there).

Of course with my new BBC2APK utility now being in beta test, you also have the possibility of creating a completely self-contained Android App that is independent of BBC BASIC and can be distributed (or sold) as you wish.  But you will in any case have wanted to test your program thoroughly using BBC BASIC on Android first.

Richard.

The next steps in installing apps on the Android phone

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Richard

I (think I) am getting closer to installing and running .bbc programs on my phone. Using Windows File Explorer on my PC, with the phone connected via a USB port, I can now see the folder structure on the phone.

I am sure you documented the instructions for what to do next somewhere in this group, but I can't find them. So here are my assumptions.

1. Download Android (4.2.1 or later): http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/BBCBasic.apk (8.1 Mbytes) onto the PC. Then transfer it to the Apps folder in the phone.

2. Transfer .bbc files from the PC to the phone, but where do I copy them to in the phone so that BBCBasic.apk can find them?

Ian

Re: The Entertainer

Ian_Wade_G3NRW
 

Me too. You are a goldmine of information, Richard.

I have just acquired a Galaxy J3(2016), Android v5.1.1, with apparently no intention/possibility to provide v6 or later (the phone is the basic model, with only 8GB internal memory, and possibly too slow for v6 upwards). However, this phone is one giant leap for mankind -- for the previous 20+ years I have been using a Nokia Marsbar -- so I am still finding my way around it. Main reason for buying the Samsung was the frustration of sending texts on the 3-letters-per-key keypad on the Nokia!

Keep your information coming, please!

--
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3nrw@...

***** Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590
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On 19/02/2018 06:33, Kendall Castor-Perry wrote:
>> Is this kind of analysis useful?
Highly, at several levels.  I will never tire of posts like that.