Date   

Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Peter,

Thanks for  actually caring about it :)

I am about done paper testing for chrysotype and I think that is the last process I will do, having done lumen paper testing, cyanotype, and palladium, also BW to an extent. But I just can’t believe when people print on multiple papers, the same process same time, and wonder why on one paper the print doesn’t look good. Each paper has its own exposure time and humidity need, Tween or no tween as part of that equation, too, and a simple Stouffer step wedge test will tell so much. The papers I’ve tested for chrysotype, for instance, range in exposure time from 3 minutes to 12. That is a big big difference, two stops! 

I did find something that may be like crack cocaine to a paper tester this week:
The sampler is 4x6 so the papers will fit a step wedge.

Legion Paper also has sampler books. 

In chrysotype I’ve eliminated 26 papers and kept 49, so far.

One handy tool I learned about this semester from Leanne McPhee’s Chrysotype book and Mike Ware’s as well is Plastazote, see link below. It is easily cut into sizes to put in contact frames to give a tight but breathable seal. I bought a 40x40 sheet and cut enough for my contact frames at home and then some at school, too.

The end.

Chris




On Oct 29, 2021, at 6:54 AM, Pfriedrichsen <pfriedrichsen@...> wrote:


Mineo, Chris,

What a great summary of Japanese papers for alt by Mineo, and Chris’s comprehensive survey. Keeps this listserve relevant and valuable.

Peter Friedrichsen

On Oct 25, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


Dear Christina, 
As far as the quality of the surface and the fine grains are concerned: 
The golden standards of kozo is Echizen Hosho, for heavyweight, and Hon-Mino slightly lighter but heavy-enough - these are very bright paper as they are washed thoroughly and contain no buffer. Hosho in Echizen (maybe Mino also) contains caolinite to fill the fibre space to minimise bleeding. 
There are many other small mills who produce heavyweight kozo but I’m sceptical they are available  outside Japan.  Others do tend to get light weight, but I’m sure you can provide backing with cotton or linen fabric while both are wet to a surprisingly refined state.— in the same token Ganpi is a material that should produce a great finish as its lustrous and very tight-grained — however very thin, thus probably needs backing — Izumo Mingei produce dark-shade but gorgeous sheets, the other  best producer is little known producer called Najio wash- their ganpi sheets are pale, and almost warm silver. Very rare paper but you should definitely try to find a way to get it.  I have some but I’m based in London uk unfortunately. 

 Other Kozo to look out for are 
Sekishu and Kurokawa, are some of the leading producers of high quality plain kozo.  Tosa produce great handmade paper but theres only one mill left there who consistently produce: Seicho (kozo) and Seiko(mitsumata) are a few of their ranges and great sheets, but surface contains slightly irregular fibres — this is what makes them great, but not a plain surface.  
 

Iwano Heizaburo mill, is a classic painting paper mill that produce a handmade large format paper, they routinely produce a sized paper, probably you want to go for their  brighter and ligthter range of hemp-kozo-ganpi mix. They should be ok, but they are really big. 1x2m  Hiromi paper will provide it

All Kozo can be sized pretty easily by solution that is a mix of quality hideglue  and alum, (I can post recipe in coming days I’m out at the mo), if you can lightly glue around the edge to a board when you apply it, it should dry tightly flat (glue strength needs a bit of testing though as this depends on the speed of drying)   and also, sizing is what prevents the fibrous surface. I reckon no handmade paper can dodge this issue. 

Alternatively people literally beat paper flat on a rubber sheet with a mullet to tighten the grains to prevent bleeding also.  

No decent handmade paper should disintegrate when wet, if it does, it either contains pulp or just not really what they say they are.

Awagami is a producer near Tosa who found a market in Photography. They produce a great machine made kozo paper, and are the pioneer in the field.

Anyway, Start with Hosho or Hon-Mino, don’t start with lesser quality paper, would be my advise, with little trial and error I am sure you can achieve a lot. 
  
Scattered info, sorry, but Hope this helps, 
Plz let me know if you have more Qs.     

Mineo





On 25 Oct 2021, at 15:07, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Yes, Mineo, thank you! 

What Japanese papers can you recommend that have some sizing, no buffering agents and good wet strength? A few suggestions would be helpful and I can test them. I’ve tried quite a few in the past but some have disintegrated like toilet paper or are too absorbent so they soak up too much solution. The Kozo that Bostick-Sullivan used to sell prints beautifully although machine made.

So far, Awagami Platinum Gampi (freestylephoto.biz) is excellent for chrysotype (and of course palladium).

As far as handmade papers, those from Khadi, Twinrocker, Velky Losiny, Ruscombe Mill, Garzapapel, St. Armand have been excellent with chrysotype.

Some papers seem to be no longer offered in the US so I wonder if covid affected production. 

Chris



On Oct 25, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Robert Poole <r.poole@...> wrote:

Great comment about handmade papers, Mineo. Since you’re an expert, can you recommend other handmade Japanese papers please?
Robert

; please excuse brevity.



On 25 Oct 2021, at 08:34, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris





Re: papers

Pfriedrichsen
 


Mineo, Chris,

What a great summary of Japanese papers for alt by Mineo, and Chris’s comprehensive survey. Keeps this listserve relevant and valuable.

Peter Friedrichsen

On Oct 25, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


Dear Christina, 
As far as the quality of the surface and the fine grains are concerned: 
The golden standards of kozo is Echizen Hosho, for heavyweight, and Hon-Mino slightly lighter but heavy-enough - these are very bright paper as they are washed thoroughly and contain no buffer. Hosho in Echizen (maybe Mino also) contains caolinite to fill the fibre space to minimise bleeding. 
There are many other small mills who produce heavyweight kozo but I’m sceptical they are available  outside Japan.  Others do tend to get light weight, but I’m sure you can provide backing with cotton or linen fabric while both are wet to a surprisingly refined state.— in the same token Ganpi is a material that should produce a great finish as its lustrous and very tight-grained — however very thin, thus probably needs backing — Izumo Mingei produce dark-shade but gorgeous sheets, the other  best producer is little known producer called Najio wash- their ganpi sheets are pale, and almost warm silver. Very rare paper but you should definitely try to find a way to get it.  I have some but I’m based in London uk unfortunately. 

 Other Kozo to look out for are 
Sekishu and Kurokawa, are some of the leading producers of high quality plain kozo.  Tosa produce great handmade paper but theres only one mill left there who consistently produce: Seicho (kozo) and Seiko(mitsumata) are a few of their ranges and great sheets, but surface contains slightly irregular fibres — this is what makes them great, but not a plain surface.  
 

Iwano Heizaburo mill, is a classic painting paper mill that produce a handmade large format paper, they routinely produce a sized paper, probably you want to go for their  brighter and ligthter range of hemp-kozo-ganpi mix. They should be ok, but they are really big. 1x2m  Hiromi paper will provide it

All Kozo can be sized pretty easily by solution that is a mix of quality hideglue  and alum, (I can post recipe in coming days I’m out at the mo), if you can lightly glue around the edge to a board when you apply it, it should dry tightly flat (glue strength needs a bit of testing though as this depends on the speed of drying)   and also, sizing is what prevents the fibrous surface. I reckon no handmade paper can dodge this issue. 

Alternatively people literally beat paper flat on a rubber sheet with a mullet to tighten the grains to prevent bleeding also.  

No decent handmade paper should disintegrate when wet, if it does, it either contains pulp or just not really what they say they are.

Awagami is a producer near Tosa who found a market in Photography. They produce a great machine made kozo paper, and are the pioneer in the field.

Anyway, Start with Hosho or Hon-Mino, don’t start with lesser quality paper, would be my advise, with little trial and error I am sure you can achieve a lot. 
  
Scattered info, sorry, but Hope this helps, 
Plz let me know if you have more Qs.     

Mineo





On 25 Oct 2021, at 15:07, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Yes, Mineo, thank you! 

What Japanese papers can you recommend that have some sizing, no buffering agents and good wet strength? A few suggestions would be helpful and I can test them. I’ve tried quite a few in the past but some have disintegrated like toilet paper or are too absorbent so they soak up too much solution. The Kozo that Bostick-Sullivan used to sell prints beautifully although machine made.

So far, Awagami Platinum Gampi (freestylephoto.biz) is excellent for chrysotype (and of course palladium).

As far as handmade papers, those from Khadi, Twinrocker, Velky Losiny, Ruscombe Mill, Garzapapel, St. Armand have been excellent with chrysotype.

Some papers seem to be no longer offered in the US so I wonder if covid affected production. 

Chris



On Oct 25, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Robert Poole <r.poole@...> wrote:

Great comment about handmade papers, Mineo. Since you’re an expert, can you recommend other handmade Japanese papers please?
Robert

; please excuse brevity.



On 25 Oct 2021, at 08:34, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris




Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Thanks, Greg! That’s where I bulk-buy my brushes and they are a great company to work with. Prompt, communicative, with lots of emails when order is in transit.

Thanks also, Mineo, for all that great information! I thought today I was done with all my paper testing for good but now I have to add a washi section. I will follow all your advice when choosing.

Chris


On Oct 25, 2021, at 12:22 PM, greg brophy <greg@...> wrote:

Hi Christina,

I use Tosa Platinum Paper specialized as a Platinum Printing Paper, it is mainly made from Tosa Kozo. It has a smooth surface for coating and does not get too fluffy (fluffy being Masayuki's description, but if you used this type of paper in the past, you know it can be easily over brushed and damaged).

They have two types. Tosa Platinum #1: Made of 70% of Tosa-Kozo from Gohoku in Ino Town and 30% of Gampi fibre.

Tosa Platinum Paper #2 is made of 80% of Tosa-Kozo from Gohoku in Ino Town and 20% Gampi fibre.

Weight:     26-30g/m2
pH:     6.5-7.5
Paper size:     approximately 60x90cm ( 23.5x35.5 inches)
Price:     Platinum Paper #1 - 1,700JPY and Platinum Paper #2 - 1,600JPY

I buy it here: https://www.pgi.ac/

Greg

On Oct 25, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Tomas Sobota <tom@...> wrote:

Christina, Magnani still has Revere listed in their site: https://www.magnani1404.com/it/printmaking/
but it is listed as just Revere, not Revere Book (or the Italian equivalent).
A rough, 100% cotton rag paper. So probably there is just a hitch in the distribution.
Tom



Re: papers

Mineo Kato
 

Dear Christina, 
As far as the quality of the surface and the fine grains are concerned: 
The golden standards of kozo is Echizen Hosho, for heavyweight, and Hon-Mino slightly lighter but heavy-enough - these are very bright paper as they are washed thoroughly and contain no buffer. Hosho in Echizen (maybe Mino also) contains caolinite to fill the fibre space to minimise bleeding. 
There are many other small mills who produce heavyweight kozo but I’m sceptical they are available  outside Japan.  Others do tend to get light weight, but I’m sure you can provide backing with cotton or linen fabric while both are wet to a surprisingly refined state.— in the same token Ganpi is a material that should produce a great finish as its lustrous and very tight-grained — however very thin, thus probably needs backing — Izumo Mingei produce dark-shade but gorgeous sheets, the other  best producer is little known producer called Najio wash- their ganpi sheets are pale, and almost warm silver. Very rare paper but you should definitely try to find a way to get it.  I have some but I’m based in London uk unfortunately. 

 Other Kozo to look out for are 
Sekishu and Kurokawa, are some of the leading producers of high quality plain kozo.  Tosa produce great handmade paper but theres only one mill left there who consistently produce: Seicho (kozo) and Seiko(mitsumata) are a few of their ranges and great sheets, but surface contains slightly irregular fibres — this is what makes them great, but not a plain surface.  
 

Iwano Heizaburo mill, is a classic painting paper mill that produce a handmade large format paper, they routinely produce a sized paper, probably you want to go for their  brighter and ligthter range of hemp-kozo-ganpi mix. They should be ok, but they are really big. 1x2m  Hiromi paper will provide it

All Kozo can be sized pretty easily by solution that is a mix of quality hideglue  and alum, (I can post recipe in coming days I’m out at the mo), if you can lightly glue around the edge to a board when you apply it, it should dry tightly flat (glue strength needs a bit of testing though as this depends on the speed of drying)   and also, sizing is what prevents the fibrous surface. I reckon no handmade paper can dodge this issue. 

Alternatively people literally beat paper flat on a rubber sheet with a mullet to tighten the grains to prevent bleeding also.  

No decent handmade paper should disintegrate when wet, if it does, it either contains pulp or just not really what they say they are.

Awagami is a producer near Tosa who found a market in Photography. They produce a great machine made kozo paper, and are the pioneer in the field.

Anyway, Start with Hosho or Hon-Mino, don’t start with lesser quality paper, would be my advise, with little trial and error I am sure you can achieve a lot. 
  
Scattered info, sorry, but Hope this helps, 
Plz let me know if you have more Qs.     

Mineo





On 25 Oct 2021, at 15:07, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Yes, Mineo, thank you! 

What Japanese papers can you recommend that have some sizing, no buffering agents and good wet strength? A few suggestions would be helpful and I can test them. I’ve tried quite a few in the past but some have disintegrated like toilet paper or are too absorbent so they soak up too much solution. The Kozo that Bostick-Sullivan used to sell prints beautifully although machine made.

So far, Awagami Platinum Gampi (freestylephoto.biz) is excellent for chrysotype (and of course palladium).

As far as handmade papers, those from Khadi, Twinrocker, Velky Losiny, Ruscombe Mill, Garzapapel, St. Armand have been excellent with chrysotype.

Some papers seem to be no longer offered in the US so I wonder if covid affected production. 

Chris



On Oct 25, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Robert Poole <r.poole@...> wrote:

Great comment about handmade papers, Mineo. Since you’re an expert, can you recommend other handmade Japanese papers please?
Robert

; please excuse brevity.



On 25 Oct 2021, at 08:34, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris




Re: papers

BOB KISS
 

DEAR CHRISTINA,

            Thanks for posting such a great list of resources!

                                    CHEERS!

                                                BOB

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of Christina Z. Anderson
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 1:48 PM
To: Alt List
Subject: Re: [altphotolist] papers

 

That is a bummer to hear, Tom. Garza Ink-Pen is beautiful for chrysotypes. I’ll take it off my list. 

 

Another paper I can’t seem to locate is Revere Book (Magnani), which was great for cyanotype.

 

With the rise in shipping costs, it’s sort of hard to buy from overseas I bet, but here are some paper places I have on my list. Note that all papers listed aren’t necessarily good, just where I have found them.

 

bostick-sullivan.com

Arches Platine, Bergger Cot320, Hahnemühle Platinum Rag, Hahnemühle Sumi-e, Lana Aquarelle, Revere Platinum, Rives BFK, Stonehenge

dickblick.com

Lenox 100, Legion Bamboo, Coventry Rag, Canson Ingres, Fabriano Rosapina, Fabriano Tiepolo, Fabriano Unica, Beinfang Marker Pad, Canson Mi teints, Arches 88, German Etching, Pescia, Coopeerplate, Bamboo, 1618 Printmaking, Rising Bristol 2-ply, Canson Heritaqge, Canson Montval, Bockingford, Canson Opalux Vellum, Arches Johannot, Indigo

freestylephoto.biz

Revere Platinum, Awagami Platinum Gampi, Arches Platine, Bergger Cot160 and Cot320, Hahnemühle Platinum Rag, Hahnemühle Sumi-e, Lana Aquarelle, Revere Platinum, Rives BFK, Stonehenge, Arches Cover/Velin, Arches Aquarelle, Canson Edition, Canson Opalux Vellum, Canson Vidalon Vellum, Rising Stonehenge

graphicchemical.com

Magnani Vergata, Zerkall Book, Zerkall Niddigen, Rives LW, Zerkall German Ingres

gpcpapers.com

wyndstone vellum

jerrysartarama.com

Canson mi teintes Winsor & Newton, Arches, Fabriano, Stonehenge, Canson, Indigo, Strathmore, Bockingford, Fluid, Saunders, Johannot, 

talasonline.com


Arches En Tout Cas (Lavis Fidelis), Fabriano Roma, Lanaquarelle,
Khadi, Revere Book, Velky Losiny, Pergamenata, Rives, Somerset, St. Armand, Folio, Arches Watercolor, Velky Losiny, Revere Platinum, Arhes Text Wove, Saunders Watercolor, Rives BFK, Arches Platine, Ruscombe Mill

takachpaper.com

Arches, Arnheim, Coventry Rag, Domeestic Etching, Folio, German Etching, Lenox, Masa, Mulberry (Japanese Handmade), Nideggen, Pescia, revere Platinum, Rives, Someerseet, Stonehenge, Johannot

https://hiromipaper.com/

Japanese papers of all sorts

acuitypapers.com

Awagami, Fabriano, Hahnemühlee, Legion, Rives, Arches, Pergamenata, Text Wove, 

 

 



On Oct 25, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Tomas Sobota <tom@...> wrote:

 

Garzapapel is a good paper but they apparently sold to some Russian group and now only sell from existing stock. I mailed the guy a couple of years back (before covid even), and he told me this. Whether the Russian group is producing paper with the same name and quality I don't know.

Khadi is a good Indian paper, not expensive. Perhaps lacks a bit in quality control. I'm using this for gum and I'm quite satisfied. There were some stock problems during the hard times of covid but they seem to be working regularly again and selling from their main place https://www.khadi.com/

Tom

 


Re: papers

 

Hi Christina,

I use Tosa Platinum Paper specialized as a Platinum Printing Paper, it is mainly made from Tosa Kozo. It has a smooth surface for coating and does not get too fluffy (fluffy being Masayuki's description, but if you used this type of paper in the past, you know it can be easily over brushed and damaged).

They have two types. Tosa Platinum #1: Made of 70% of Tosa-Kozo from Gohoku in Ino Town and 30% of Gampi fibre.

Tosa Platinum Paper #2 is made of 80% of Tosa-Kozo from Gohoku in Ino Town and 20% Gampi fibre.

Weight:     26-30g/m2
pH:     6.5-7.5
Paper size:     approximately 60x90cm ( 23.5x35.5 inches)
Price:     Platinum Paper #1 - 1,700JPY and Platinum Paper #2 - 1,600JPY

I buy it here: https://www.pgi.ac/

Greg

On Oct 25, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Tomas Sobota <tom@...> wrote:

Christina, Magnani still has Revere listed in their site: https://www.magnani1404.com/it/printmaking/
but it is listed as just Revere, not Revere Book (or the Italian equivalent).
A rough, 100% cotton rag paper. So probably there is just a hitch in the distribution.
Tom


Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Thanks, Tom.

The one I am talking about is 175 gsm, eggshell texture, ivory colored, book weight. But with all things paper, there are others I can substitute for that weight that work well. 

Chris



On Oct 25, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Tomas Sobota <tom@...> wrote:

Christina, Magnani still has Revere listed in their site: https://www.magnani1404.com/it/printmaking/
but it is listed as just Revere, not Revere Book (or the Italian equivalent).
A rough, 100% cotton rag paper. So probably there is just a hitch in the distribution.
Tom


Re: papers

Tomas Sobota
 

Christina, Magnani still has Revere listed in their site: https://www.magnani1404.com/it/printmaking/
but it is listed as just Revere, not Revere Book (or the Italian equivalent).
A rough, 100% cotton rag paper. So probably there is just a hitch in the distribution.
Tom


Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

That is a bummer to hear, Tom. Garza Ink-Pen is beautiful for chrysotypes. I’ll take it off my list. 

Another paper I can’t seem to locate is Revere Book (Magnani), which was great for cyanotype.

With the rise in shipping costs, it’s sort of hard to buy from overseas I bet, but here are some paper places I have on my list. Note that all papers listed aren’t necessarily good, just where I have found them.

bostick-sullivan.com Arches Platine, Bergger Cot320, Hahnemühle Platinum Rag, Hahnemühle Sumi-e, Lana Aquarelle, Revere Platinum, Rives BFK, Stonehenge

dickblick.com Lenox 100, Legion Bamboo, Coventry Rag, Canson Ingres, Fabriano Rosapina, Fabriano Tiepolo, Fabriano Unica, Beinfang Marker Pad, Canson Mi teints, Arches 88, German Etching, Pescia, Coopeerplate, Bamboo, 1618 Printmaking, Rising Bristol 2-ply, Canson Heritaqge, Canson Montval, Bockingford, Canson Opalux Vellum, Arches Johannot, Indigo

freestylephoto.biz Revere Platinum, Awagami Platinum Gampi, Arches Platine, Bergger Cot160 and Cot320, Hahnemühle Platinum Rag, Hahnemühle Sumi-e, Lana Aquarelle, Revere Platinum, Rives BFK, Stonehenge, Arches Cover/Velin, Arches Aquarelle, Canson Edition, Canson Opalux Vellum, Canson Vidalon Vellum, Rising Stonehenge

graphicchemical.com Magnani Vergata, Zerkall Book, Zerkall Niddigen, Rives LW, Zerkall German Ingres

gpcpapers.com wyndstone vellum

jerrysartarama.com Canson mi teintes Winsor & Newton, Arches, Fabriano, Stonehenge, Canson, Indigo, Strathmore, Bockingford, Fluid, Saunders, Johannot, 
talasonline.com
Arches En Tout Cas (Lavis Fidelis), Fabriano Roma, Lanaquarelle,
Khadi, Revere Book, Velky Losiny, Pergamenata, Rives, Somerset, St. Armand, Folio, Arches Watercolor, Velky Losiny, Revere Platinum, Arhes Text Wove, Saunders Watercolor, Rives BFK, Arches Platine, Ruscombe Mill

takachpaper.com Arches, Arnheim, Coventry Rag, Domeestic Etching, Folio, German Etching, Lenox, Masa, Mulberry (Japanese Handmade), Nideggen, Pescia, revere Platinum, Rives, Someerseet, Stonehenge, Johannot

https://hiromipaper.com/ Japanese papers of all sorts

acuitypapers.com Awagami, Fabriano, Hahnemühlee, Legion, Rives, Arches, Pergamenata, Text Wove, 



On Oct 25, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Tomas Sobota <tom@...> wrote:

Garzapapel is a good paper but they apparently sold to some Russian group and now only sell from existing stock. I mailed the guy a couple of years back (before covid even), and he told me this. Whether the Russian group is producing paper with the same name and quality I don't know.
Khadi is a good Indian paper, not expensive. Perhaps lacks a bit in quality control. I'm using this for gum and I'm quite satisfied. There were some stock problems during the hard times of covid but they seem to be working regularly again and selling from their main place https://www.khadi.com/
Tom


Re: papers

Tomas Sobota
 

Garzapapel is a good paper but they apparently sold to some Russian group and now only sell from existing stock. I mailed the guy a couple of years back (before covid even), and he told me this. Whether the Russian group is producing paper with the same name and quality I don't know.
Khadi is a good Indian paper, not expensive. Perhaps lacks a bit in quality control. I'm using this for gum and I'm quite satisfied. There were some stock problems during the hard times of covid but they seem to be working regularly again and selling from their main place https://www.khadi.com/
Tom


Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Yes, Mineo, thank you! 

What Japanese papers can you recommend that have some sizing, no buffering agents and good wet strength? A few suggestions would be helpful and I can test them. I’ve tried quite a few in the past but some have disintegrated like toilet paper or are too absorbent so they soak up too much solution. The Kozo that Bostick-Sullivan used to sell prints beautifully although machine made.

So far, Awagami Platinum Gampi (freestylephoto.biz) is excellent for chrysotype (and of course palladium).

As far as handmade papers, those from Khadi, Twinrocker, Velky Losiny, Ruscombe Mill, Garzapapel, St. Armand have been excellent with chrysotype.

Some papers seem to be no longer offered in the US so I wonder if covid affected production. 

Chris



On Oct 25, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Robert Poole <r.poole@...> wrote:

Great comment about handmade papers, Mineo. Since you’re an expert, can you recommend other handmade Japanese papers please?
Robert

; please excuse brevity.



On 25 Oct 2021, at 08:34, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris



Re: papers

Robert Poole
 

Great comment about handmade papers, Mineo. Since you’re an expert, can you recommend other handmade Japanese papers please?
Robert

; please excuse brevity.



On 25 Oct 2021, at 08:34, Mineo Kato <kaccas@...> wrote:


This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


Re: papers

Mineo Kato
 

This is usually considered to be the best heavyweight Kozo paper. however it is handmade— have laid lines usually. Ilford makes gelatine  silver using something similar to this, so maybe. Not tested. 

But handmade paper should be something alternative process should be working with. 

Just my opinion as someone with a speciality in paper
Mineo 



https://store.hiromipaper.com/products/kizuki-hosho?_pos=1&_sid=217b1107c&_ss=r

Sent from a phone

On 24 Oct 2021, at 23:48, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


Re: papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Thank you both for saving me $$$.
Chris

On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:23 PM, Jim Patterson, <jimbobnola@...> wrote:

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


Re: papers

Jim Patterson,
 

Hi, I agree with Don.  Very thin, impervious to processes such as Cyanotype, Cuprotype, etc.  works ok to pour a silver halide/gelatin emulsion on, but curls badly.  Carbon does stick to it, but feels flimsy.
Jim



On Oct 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Don Nelson <ac7zg@...> wrote:

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


Re: papers

Don Nelson
 

That Adox is very very thin
I have used it for easy and cheap testing for carbon (new pigments in tissue with step tablet) but do not recommend it for use for carbon prints.
I doubt it would absorb much, if any, sensitizer. Since it works for carbon to adhere, you can be assured that it has an air-tight coating.
It’s like toilet tissue coated with baryta :-(
Don Nelson


On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


papers

Christina Z. Anderson
 

Anyone use this paper yet for alt?


I noticed that Japanese Mulberry/Heavyweight Kozo is no longer on the Bostick Sullivan website; is there somewhere else it is available? I’m not sure of the brand name so it’s hard to locate that specific paper which is great for alt pro also for chrystoype.

Chris


Re: Copper toner chemistry question

BOB KISS
 

Thanks!

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of Christina Z. Anderson
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 12:07 PM
To: Alt List
Subject: Re: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question

 

LOL thanks for the time to respond even if it was already covered!

I’ve been watching your chattel houses on FB. Fun to see.

Chris



On Oct 23, 2021, at 10:05 AM, BOB KISS via groups.io <bobkiss@...> wrote:

 

OOPSIE!  Looks like you and Jim already covered this.  Email VERY slow this morning and yours didn't download until after I sent mine!

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of BOB KISS via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 11:59 AM
To: altphotolist@groups.io
Subject: Re: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question

 

DEAR CHRIS,

            A little free advice (by definition, of no value!  LOL!):  Buy a bulk quantity of Potassium carbonate...it is pretty cheap.  As you most likely have citric acid in your lab and you also have oxalic acid, you can then mix, very cheaply, Potassium Citrate for this toner or Potassium Oxalate for developing PT/PD prints and lotza other uses.

                                    CHEERS!

                                                BOB  

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of Christina Z. Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 8:18 PM
To: Alt List
Subject: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question

 

Dear All,

 

As usual I need a chemist’s input.

 

This week I had the toning gang lab where I mix up blue toner, thiourea toner, copper toner, selenium, and gold, and the students go to town toning and multiple toning prints.

 

I normally buy a copper toner kit but had not, and unfortunately I forgot to order one chem for mixing my own copper toner, Potassium Citrate. I had lots of Sodium Citrate on hand (use in pt/pd and chrysotype) so I substituted it in the formula below. It worked beautifully. 

 

I don’t think the two citrates are interchangeable. Can anyone explain the difference (aside from, of course, potassium versus sodium) and why the sodium worked well anyway? In the future I’ll just mix my own instead of ordering a kit…unless one of you says it’s an egregious chemistry substitution error…

 

Chris

 

Ferguson’s copper toner

Part A

6 g copper sulfate

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the copper sulfate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part A. The container does not need to be light tight.

Part B

5 g potassium ferricyanide

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the potassium ferricyanide to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part B. The container does not need to be light tight.

At time of use mix equal parts of Part A and Part B and pour into a tray. Once Part A and Part B are mixed together, the combined solution does not keep past one toning session.

Immerse the print in water until evenly soaked.

Drain the print and immerse in the copper toner.

Tone until the color desired is reached, which can be anywhere from a few minutes to really long (30–90 minutes). Some fun stuff can occur with long toning if you desire, such as plating out of copper on the print. However, watch carefully and don’t leave the print unattended or staining can occur.

After toning, rinse the print for 15 minutes in running water and dry.

 


Re: Copper toner chemistry question

Christina Z. Anderson
 

LOL thanks for the time to respond even if it was already covered!
I’ve been watching your chattel houses on FB. Fun to see.
Chris

On Oct 23, 2021, at 10:05 AM, BOB KISS via groups.io <bobkiss@...> wrote:

OOPSIE!  Looks like you and Jim already covered this.  Email VERY slow this morning and yours didn't download until after I sent mine!
 
From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of BOB KISS via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 11:59 AM
To: altphotolist@groups.io
Subject: Re: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question
 
DEAR CHRIS,
            A little free advice (by definition, of no value!  LOL!):  Buy a bulk quantity of Potassium carbonate...it is pretty cheap.  As you most likely have citric acid in your lab and you also have oxalic acid, you can then mix, very cheaply, Potassium Citrate for this toner or Potassium Oxalate for developing PT/PD prints and lotza other uses.
                                    CHEERS!
                                                BOB  
 
From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of Christina Z. Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 8:18 PM
To: Alt List
Subject: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question
 
Dear All,
 
As usual I need a chemist’s input.
 
This week I had the toning gang lab where I mix up blue toner, thiourea toner, copper toner, selenium, and gold, and the students go to town toning and multiple toning prints.
 
I normally buy a copper toner kit but had not, and unfortunately I forgot to order one chem for mixing my own copper toner, Potassium Citrate. I had lots of Sodium Citrate on hand (use in pt/pd and chrysotype) so I substituted it in the formula below. It worked beautifully. 
 
I don’t think the two citrates are interchangeable. Can anyone explain the difference (aside from, of course, potassium versus sodium) and why the sodium worked well anyway? In the future I’ll just mix my own instead of ordering a kit…unless one of you says it’s an egregious chemistry substitution error…
 
Chris
 
Ferguson’s copper toner

Part A

6 g copper sulfate

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the copper sulfate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part A. The container does not need to be light tight.

Part B

5 g potassium ferricyanide

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the potassium ferricyanide to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part B. The container does not need to be light tight.

At time of use mix equal parts of Part A and Part B and pour into a tray. Once Part A and Part B are mixed together, the combined solution does not keep past one toning session.

Immerse the print in water until evenly soaked.

Drain the print and immerse in the copper toner.

Tone until the color desired is reached, which can be anywhere from a few minutes to really long (30–90 minutes). Some fun stuff can occur with long toning if you desire, such as plating out of copper on the print. However, watch carefully and don’t leave the print unattended or staining can occur.

After toning, rinse the print for 15 minutes in running water and dry.



Re: Copper toner chemistry question

BOB KISS
 

OOPSIE!  Looks like you and Jim already covered this.  Email VERY slow this morning and yours didn't download until after I sent mine!

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of BOB KISS via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 11:59 AM
To: altphotolist@groups.io
Subject: Re: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question

 

DEAR CHRIS,

            A little free advice (by definition, of no value!  LOL!):  Buy a bulk quantity of Potassium carbonate...it is pretty cheap.  As you most likely have citric acid in your lab and you also have oxalic acid, you can then mix, very cheaply, Potassium Citrate for this toner or Potassium Oxalate for developing PT/PD prints and lotza other uses.

                                    CHEERS!

                                                BOB 

 

From: altphotolist@groups.io [mailto:altphotolist@groups.io] On Behalf Of Christina Z. Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 8:18 PM
To: Alt List
Subject: [altphotolist] Copper toner chemistry question

 

Dear All,

 

As usual I need a chemist’s input.

 

This week I had the toning gang lab where I mix up blue toner, thiourea toner, copper toner, selenium, and gold, and the students go to town toning and multiple toning prints.

 

I normally buy a copper toner kit but had not, and unfortunately I forgot to order one chem for mixing my own copper toner, Potassium Citrate. I had lots of Sodium Citrate on hand (use in pt/pd and chrysotype) so I substituted it in the formula below. It worked beautifully. 

 

I don’t think the two citrates are interchangeable. Can anyone explain the difference (aside from, of course, potassium versus sodium) and why the sodium worked well anyway? In the future I’ll just mix my own instead of ordering a kit…unless one of you says it’s an egregious chemistry substitution error…

 

Chris

 

Ferguson’s copper toner

Part A

6 g copper sulfate

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the copper sulfate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part A. The container does not need to be light tight.

Part B

5 g potassium ferricyanide

24 g potassium citrate

Water to 1000 ml

Add the potassium ferricyanide to the water and stir until dissolved.

Add the potassium citrate to the water and stir until dissolved.

Store in a liter container, marked Part B. The container does not need to be light tight.

At time of use mix equal parts of Part A and Part B and pour into a tray. Once Part A and Part B are mixed together, the combined solution does not keep past one toning session.

Immerse the print in water until evenly soaked.

Drain the print and immerse in the copper toner.

Tone until the color desired is reached, which can be anywhere from a few minutes to really long (30–90 minutes). Some fun stuff can occur with long toning if you desire, such as plating out of copper on the print. However, watch carefully and don’t leave the print unattended or staining can occur.

After toning, rinse the print for 15 minutes in running water and dry.

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