Topics

New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from Texas Instruments #hardware

Dana Myers
 

On 3/5/2019 8:37 AM, Joe M. wrote:
Is this really one, or one lot of 100?
(which makes the 100+ QTY 100+ lots of 100, or 10,000+)

Maybe when you add one, you're adding one lot of 100.
Surely it's really the unit price in 100-unit quantity. That's
how semiconductor pricing is typically done; unit price in
N-unit quantity.

Dana  K6JQ

Marcus D. Leech
 

On 03/05/2019 11:37 AM, Joe M. wrote:
Is this really one, or one lot of 100?
(which makes the 100+ QTY 100+ lots of 100, or 10,000+)

Maybe when you add one, you're adding one lot of 100.

Joe M.
This is for one. The CAD$ price for the chip at Mouser.ca is CAD$2800 or so for a single unit.

Eye-watering chip pricing for chips like this is not unusual. Look at pricing for high-end Intel CPUs,
for example...

The whole "but it's just a couple of grams of melted sand and some epoxy and tin" argument, which will inevitably ensue,
ignores the development and production costs. If you spend 10s of 1e6 developing the unit, and you suspect that you'll
only ever sell 10s of 1e3, then you have to charge ca 1e3 a pop *just to recover your dev costs*. Doing otherwise is
the way you go bankrupt.

Now, one can amortize the dev costs over long time-scales, but there are accounting rules and industry best-practices, etc, etc.

Are they making a stunning profit off this chip? Initially, probably not.



On 3/5/2019 11:13 AM, August Johnson wrote:
That line means pricing EACH if you buy 100 units. Not price for 100
units. You will be disappointed. $1800 in single unit quantities. Click
on the "order now" link and TRY to add ONE to your cart. You'll see
$1801.70.

August KG7BZ


On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 8:03 AM Siegfried Jackstien
<siegfried.jackstien@... <mailto:siegfried.jackstien@...>>
wrote:

so ... when do start a group order???

should be easy o find a cheap chinese pcb manufacturer hi hi

(just hoping a bit)

dg9bfc sigi

ps ... yes that is also what i have seen price per 100 units (half a
metre cut from the reel or so)






p chinese pc

Am 05.03.2019 um 15:45 schrieb Fred Hillhouse:

*Good eye David!____*

*__ __*

*Product,Package, Pricing in 100-unit quantities, Order now at the
TI store*____

AFE7444
<https://c212.net/c/link/?t=0&l=en&o=2390916-1&h=2410926770&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FAFE7444%2Fsamplebuy%3FHQS-asc-dc-hsc-afe74xx-pr-sa-afe7444-wwe&a=AFE7444> quad-channel,
wideband RF-sampling transceiver, 17-mm-by-17-mm, flip-chip ball
grid array (FCBGA), Starting at US$1,749.90, AFE7444IABJ
<https://c212.net/c/link/?t=0&l=en&o=2390916-1&h=3609658633&u=https%3A%2F%2Fstore.ti.com%2FAFE7444IABJ.aspx%3FHQS%3Dasc-dc-hsc-afe74xx-pr-storeic-afe7444-wwe&a=AFE7444IABJ>____

AFE7422
<https://c212.net/c/link/?t=0&l=en&o=2390916-1&h=4212400792&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FAFE7422%2Fsamplebuy%3FHQS-asc-dc-hsc-afe74xx-pr-sa-afe7422-wwe&a=AFE7422> dual-channel,
wideband RF-sampling transceiver, 17-mm-by-17-mm FCBGA, Starting
at US$1,249.90, AFE7422IABJ
<https://c212.net/c/link/?t=0&l=en&o=2390916-1&h=3758813333&u=https%3A%2F%2Fstore.ti.com%2FAFE7422IABJ.aspx%3FHQS%3Dasc-dc-hsc-afe74xx-pr-storeic-afe7444-wwe&a=AFE7422IABJ>____

__ __

They are $17.50/piece and $12.50/piece which is not unreasonable.____

__ __

There are evaluation modules available at $2499 and $1999.____

__ __

__ __

____

__ __

-----Original Message-----
From: main@airspy.groups.io <mailto:main@airspy.groups.io>
[mailto:main@airspy.groups.io] On Behalf Of David J Taylor via
Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@airspy.groups.io <mailto:main@airspy.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [airspy] New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from
Texas Instruments #hardware

__ __

From: Pierre Martel____

__ __

at 1800$ a pop. Not sure it will be available in a near futur for
our type ____

of use.____

============================================____

__ __

... and I read it as $1800 for a reel of 100! $18 each.____

__ __

Cheers,____

David____

-- ____

SatSignal Software - Quality software for you____

Web: http://www.satsignal.eu____

Email: david-taylor@...
<mailto:david-taylor@...>____

Twitter: @gm8arv ____

__ __

__ __

____

__ __


<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>


<#m_6228505488120764581_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

August Johnson
 

Here's another item TI sells, it's NOT per 100, it's each.

ti1.jpg

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 8:40 AM August Johnson <augjohnson@...> wrote:
This is the standard pricing method. It means EACH in quantity of 100. See this when you go to the buy page.

ti.jpg
August KG7BZ



On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 8:37 AM Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is this really one, or one lot of 100?
(which makes the 100+ QTY 100+ lots of 100, or 10,000+)

Maybe when you add one, you're adding one lot of 100.

Joe M.

On 3/5/2019 11:13 AM, August Johnson wrote:
> That line means pricing EACH if you buy 100 units. Not price for 100
> units. You will be disappointed. $1800 in single unit quantities. Click
> on the "order now" link and TRY to add ONE to your cart. You'll see
> $1801.70.
>
> August KG7BZ
>

 Chris Spacone
 

I'm certain we'll be seeing one of these made from pure Chinesium which will bring the price down quickly.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Marcus D. Leech"
To: main@airspy.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday March 5 2019 8:31:39AM
Subject: Re: [airspy] New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from Texas Instruments #hardware

On 03/05/2019 11:20 AM, Marcus D. Leech via Groups.Io wrote:
On 03/05/2019 11:13 AM, August Johnson wrote:
That line means pricing EACH if you buy 100 units. Not price for 100 units. You will be disappointed. $1800 in single unit quantities. Click on the "order now" link and TRY to add ONE to your cart. You'll see $1801.70.

August KG7BZ

"Yes, but we'll only have to sell ONE of it, and we'll eat like kings, my friend, LIKE KINGS!"


To be fair to TI, they likely spent a lot of money developing this thing, and yields on that kind of part are probably poor.  Probably spent a
  few million just bringing it to this stage.

Hopefully, the price will come down over time.   The first 8080 CPUs,, for example, were quite expensive.



On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 8:03 AM Siegfried Jackstien <siegfried.jackstien@...> wrote:

so ... when do start a group order???

should be easy o find a cheap chinese pcb manufacturer hi hi

(just hoping a bit)

dg9bfc sigi

ps ... yes that is also what i have seen price per 100 units (half a metre cut from the reel or so)






p chinese pc

Am 05.03.2019 um 15:45 schrieb Fred Hillhouse:

Good eye David!

 

Product,Package, Pricing in 100-unit quantities, Order now at the TI store

AFE7444 quad-channel, wideband RF-sampling transceiver,  17-mm-by-17-mm, flip-chip ball grid array (FCBGA), Starting at US$1,749.90, AFE7444IABJ

AFE7422 dual-channel, wideband RF-sampling transceiver, 17-mm-by-17-mm FCBGA, Starting at US$1,249.90,  AFE7422IABJ

 

They are $17.50/piece and $12.50/piece which is not unreasonable.

 

There are evaluation modules available at $2499 and $1999.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@airspy.groups.io [mailto:main@airspy.groups.io] On Behalf Of David J Taylor via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@airspy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [airspy] New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from Texas Instruments #hardware

 

From: Pierre Martel

 

at 1800$ a pop. Not sure it will be available in a near futur for our type

of use.

============================================

 

... and I read it as $1800 for a reel of 100!  $18 each.

 

Cheers,

David

--

SatSignal Software - Quality software for you

Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

Email: david-taylor@...

Twitter: @gm8arv

 

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Joe M.
 

Yes. The "Partial Tray" description hints it is $1800 per single.

If it were sold in trays of 100, it would be described as "Tray".

Joe M.

On 3/5/2019 11:42 AM, Dana Myers wrote:
On 3/5/2019 8:37 AM, Joe M. wrote:
Is this really one, or one lot of 100?
(which makes the 100+ QTY 100+ lots of 100, or 10,000+)

Maybe when you add one, you're adding one lot of 100.
Surely it's really the unit price in 100-unit quantity. That's
how semiconductor pricing is typically done; unit price in
N-unit quantity.

Dana K6JQ

Martin Smith
 

It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?

Marcus D. Leech
 

On 03/05/2019 01:14 PM, Martin Smith via Groups.Io wrote:
It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?
I've put in a request for a full datasheet. That required that I satisfy ITAR muster.



Marcus D. Leech
 

On 03/05/2019 01:14 PM, Martin Smith via Groups.Io wrote:
It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?
There are these, as well:

https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/rfsoc.html

ADCs, FPGA, multi-core ARM all on the same chip...


Dana Myers
 

On 3/5/2019 10:14 AM, Martin Smith via Groups.Io wrote:
It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?
I don't think you're missing a thing. The target markets for this
device are pretty clearly not consumer-oriented; I'd think
telecommunications infrastructure and terrestrial military
are more like it; I would be surprised if there's not a high-rel
version of this family for aero/space applications.

You can find the high-rel/rad-hard product folders on the
TI site; often, they are based on a "commercial" part like this.
It's always funny to click "Buy Now" and get the redirect to call
your local TI sales office.

Cheers,
Dana  K6JQ

 

The Xilinx RFSOC parts also carry a price tag in the multi-K $ range as well. And they definitely are regulated by EAR/ITAR regulations.

-Ray WB6TPU
Full disclosure: I work at Xilinx.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@airspy.groups.io [mailto:main@airspy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Marcus D. Leech via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 10:53 AM
To: main@airspy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [airspy] New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from Texas Instruments #hardware

EXTERNAL EMAIL

On 03/05/2019 01:14 PM, Martin Smith via Groups.Io wrote:
It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?
There are these, as well:

https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/rfsoc.html

ADCs, FPGA, multi-core ARM all on the same chip...


Marcus D. Leech
 

On 03/05/2019 03:04 PM, Ray WB6TPU wrote:
The Xilinx RFSOC parts also carry a price tag in the multi-K $ range as well. And they definitely are regulated by EAR/ITAR regulations.

-Ray WB6TPU
Full disclosure: I work at Xilinx.
I think the per-channel costs are a bit lower...



-----Original Message-----
From: main@airspy.groups.io [mailto:main@airspy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Marcus D. Leech via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 10:53 AM
To: main@airspy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [airspy] New Direct Sampling Transceiver IC from Texas Instruments #hardware

EXTERNAL EMAIL

On 03/05/2019 01:14 PM, Martin Smith via Groups.Io wrote:
It is a fantastic chip, but ITAR would make it a pain to use in anything other than military applications ?
https://www.bis.doc.gov/ ->“Regulations”-> “EAR (Export Administration Regulations)”->“Category 3 - Electronics Design Development and Production”

Or am I missing something ?
There are these, as well:

https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/rfsoc.html

ADCs, FPGA, multi-core ARM all on the same chip...






prog
 

If only one of these big companies (ADI, TI, Xilinx) could sponsor the development and build of a small batch for enthusiasts (who are mostly engineers anyway), it would accelerate the adoption of their products.

Marcus D. Leech
 

On 03/05/2019 04:18 PM, prog wrote:
If only one of these big companies (ADI, TI, Xilinx) could sponsor the development and build of a small batch for enthusiasts (who are mostly engineers anyway), it would accelerate the adoption of their products.

jdow
 

Dream on!
{^_-}

On 20190305 06:36:10, David J Taylor via Groups.Io wrote:
From: Pierre Martel
at 1800$ a pop. Not sure it will be available in a near futur for our type of use.
============================================
... and I read it as $1800 for a reel of 100!  $18 each.
Cheers,
David

jdow
 

No - if you buy in 100 unit quantities the price is $1800 each.
{^_^}

On 20190305 06:44:13, Siegfried Jackstien wrote:
100 ... for 1700 dollar ... that is 17 bucks per chip
now we make a group order hi hi
greetz
sigi dg9bfc
Am 05.03.2019 um 12:59 schrieb Ken Alexander:
Sounds cool, but at those prices you can count me out. 😖

Ken Alexander
So Phisai, Thailand
Blog: bueng-ken.com <http://bueng-ken.com>


On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 7:36 PM prog <@prog <mailto:@prog>> wrote:

ADC: 3 GSPS
DAC: 9 GSPS
2 or 4 TRX channels

Check this out!

https://news.ti.com/industrys-first-integrated-quad-and-dual-channel-rf-sampling-transceivers-enable-multiantenna-wideband-systems?HQS=asc-dcs-hsc-afe74xx-twit-lp-pr-wwe

Siegfried Jackstien
 

come on ....  it was a nice dream ... not?!?

now dream to add such a chip to pcb ... with a good fpga single board computer etc ...

if you are fast in developing you could earn a lot :-)

greetz

sigi dg9bfc

Am 05.03.2019 um 22:13 schrieb jdow:

No - if you buy in 100 unit quantities the price is $1800 each.
{^_^}

On 20190305 06:44:13, Siegfried Jackstien wrote:
100 ... for 1700 dollar ... that is 17 bucks per chip

now we make a group order hi hi

greetz

sigi dg9bfc

Am 05.03.2019 um 12:59 schrieb Ken Alexander:
Sounds cool, but at those prices you can count me out. 😖

Ken Alexander
So Phisai, Thailand
Blog: bueng-ken.com <http://bueng-ken.com>


On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 7:36 PM prog <@prog <mailto:@prog>> wrote:

    ADC: 3 GSPS
    DAC: 9 GSPS
    2 or 4 TRX channels

    Check this out!

https://news.ti.com/industrys-first-integrated-quad-and-dual-channel-rf-sampling-transceivers-enable-multiantenna-wideband-systems?HQS=asc-dcs-hsc-afe74xx-twit-lp-pr-wwe

doug
 


On 03/05/2019 04:23 PM, Marcus D. Leech wrote:
On 03/05/2019 04:18 PM, prog wrote:
If only one of these big companies (ADI, TI, Xilinx) could sponsor the development and build of a small batch for enthusiasts (who are mostly engineers anyway), it would accelerate the adoption of their products.

_.
As a retired RF Engineer, I have to say that new IC and transistor products are sampled to working engineers very quickly. As to adoption, it depends on the potential sales for any given product.
One company, which shall remain nameless, sampled me some very nice RF devices, I designed then into a product, and then I found that because we were not going to make many thousands of
the product, that they were not going to make the part any more. I was not the only engineer at the company who discovered a similar situation, and we no longer did business with this very major
supplier of RF semiconductors. Some reading this probably know the supplier I'm writing about.

As far as enthusiasts, it is obvious that there will be no production follow-on from the retired engineer or ham radio enthusiast working in his basement, so it would not be in the financial interest of
the supplier to make a development device available to these folks.

Some retired engineers are consultants, and it is possible that some companies will provide them with sample devices, but not development devices, but only those that are already in production.
I have done just a tiny bit of consulting, and I have received one or two device samples, so it does work out to that extent.

--doug, WA2SAY

erik@...
 

Downloaded the spec sheet - looks wonderful, but the price man.

Surprisingly 14bit too, I *think* hams are looking to 16 bit resolution for the future are they not? Especially for this price bracket.

By comparison, Ettus B210 uses AD9361 - which I find today at $238 USD, whilst a completed B210 SDR sells for $1,216 USD (and that is friendly USA prices), so a x10 markup (but understandable).

The AFE7444 I see online at retailers for $1802 USD. So I guess you have to know how to roll your own, or expect a device nearly $15 - $20k USD.

At least it wouldn't launch with a USB interface :)

In any regard, at least we know what to expect in hobbyland, for the next 5 - 10 years in SDR terms...

Peace.

Dana Myers
 

On 3/5/2019 10:09 PM, erik@... wrote:
Downloaded the spec sheet - looks wonderful, but the price man.

Surprisingly 14bit too, I *think* hams are looking to 16 bit resolution for the future are they not? Especially for this price bracket.

By comparison, Ettus B210 uses AD9361 - which I find today at $238 USD, whilst a completed B210 SDR sells for $1,216 USD (and that is friendly USA prices), so a x10 markup (but understandable).

Wouldn't you agree that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison between
the AFE7444 direct-sampling at 3Gs/s with internal decimation and the B210
sampling at 62Ms/s with an RF down-converting front-end? ;-)

The AFE7444 I see online at retailers for $1802 USD. So I guess you have to know how to roll your own, or expect a device nearly $15 - $20k USD.

At least it wouldn't launch with a USB interface :)

In any regard, at least we know what to expect in hobbyland, for the next 5 - 10 years in SDR terms...

Peace.

jdow
 

Well, let's think about this. With a 3 GHz I/Q sample rate, if that is how the chip works out, you get a noise power of -174 dBm basic noise figure 1 noise plus about 95 dB leading to a base level for the A/D noise level of about -79 dBm. Without any decimation tricks that means the top end of the dynamic range is about 0 dBm. That is very respectable for any receiver. Put filters on that thing and you get very serious levels of dynamic range. Then use decimation to extend your LSBs downwards. You can increase the top end dB per dB with what decimation buys you. This toy could have a staggering dynamic range anywhere in a 1+ GHz frequency range 0 through 1+ GHs. This is the stuff that allows ad hoc repeaters without exotic filters, for example.

{^_^}

On 20190305 22:09:44, erik@... wrote:
Downloaded the spec sheet - looks wonderful, but the price man.
Surprisingly 14bit too, I *think* hams are looking to 16 bit resolution for the future are they not? Especially for this price bracket.
By comparison, Ettus B210 uses AD9361 - which I find today at $238 USD, whilst a completed B210 SDR sells for $1,216 USD (and that is friendly USA prices), *so a x10 markup* (but understandable).
The AFE7444 <https://c212.net/c/link/?t=0&l=en&o=2390916-1&h=2410926770&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FAFE7444%2Fsamplebuy%3FHQS-asc-dc-hsc-afe74xx-pr-sa-afe7444-wwe&a=AFE7444> I see online at retailers for $1802 USD. So I guess you have to know how to roll your own, or expect a device nearly $15 - $20k USD.
At least it wouldn't launch with a USB interface :)
In any regard, at least we know what to expect in hobbyland, for the next 5 - 10 years in SDR terms...
Peace.