Date   
Welcome to the new Z16357 group

Jared Smith
 

New messages to the discussion list can be sent to Z16357@groups.io
Subscribe by e-mailing Z16357+subscribe@groups.io or go to
https://groups.io/g/Z16357

The Z16357 project web site is http://dna.smithplanet.com/ It has STR
and SNP spreadsheets, known ancestries for members, and additional
information and resources on our branch of the Y-DNA tree.

Today I added a new tree overview graphic at
http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp and on the homepage. It should provide
a more basic overview of where folks are at - or may end up with
testing.

I also added Joel's STR relationship chart to the STR page.

I've also further extended the STR and GD spreadsheets with likely
Z16357+ people. I want to add as many as I can find, then I'll focus
more on recruiting them to the project (I'll need help from others to
get contact info from their Y-DNA and Big-Y matches).

The tree is likely to change a bit in the coming month or so with the
several tests that are underway - it makes sense to get a better sense
of where some of the new people end up before recommending tests for
others.


Feedback and additional ideas are very welcome.

Jared

Groups.io tips

James Bennett
 

To start a new message thread or subject, click on "New Topic" just below the "Messages" item on the far left of the page.  I'm not sure why they don't include this button on the Messages page.

James

Re: Welcome to the new Z16357 group

Joel Hartley
 

Thanks Jared,

I am very interested in the work that you have done. Here is a link to a Blog I wrote on a STR Tree for likely Z17911 Hartleys. I hope to write more on a Z17911 STR Tree.


Joel Hartley

Project update

Jared Smith
 

I've just updated and uploaded new STR and GD spreadsheets -
http://dna.smithplanet.com/str

I tried to position people based on rough groupings. Sorting the GD
spreadsheet by column provides the best insight into relationships.

I added some of our Hartley and Thomas relatives. I also added newly
found Watkins and Griffin people (all closely associated to
Vaughn/Vaughan). Also some Martyn people closely associated to
Thomas. Charles, do you know the connection here?

I think I've mostly completed what I've considered Phase 1 of this
project - identifying potential R-Z16357 people and future SNP testers
from people who have taken Y-DNA tests. I've exhausted Mike W.'s
spreadsheet, my STR matches, and several other sources. We're now at
75 very promising potential testers on our spreadsheet! But I know
there are more out there.

You can help with this by checking your FTDNA Y-STR matches (at Y25+)
for people I could add, especially focusing on surname groups I may
have missed. Some of you will have matches that I can't see.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to find good potential matches to the
Smith, etc. people who are or are likely Z16357. If we consider S5668
(the parent SNP to Z16357) as the trunk, and Z16357 as the base of our
branch, then R-Z17911 is way out at the end of that long branch. So
when you do STR comparisons, these Smiths are closer matches to
hundreds of people on totally different branches than they are to us
at the end of their own branch. This poses a distinct challenge, but
we have many good prospects identified already.

We'll now transition into recruiting these people to do Big-Y, or (as
we better define the STR grouping positions on the SNP tree) SNP pack
or single SNP tests. And also trying to connect genealogical lines and
geographies.

Jared Smith (FTDNA #307773)

Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

Joel Hartley
 

I wrote a Blog on a Z17911 STR Tree. The Tree covers Smith, Goff, Gilroy, Hartley and Sanchez. I haven't tackled a STR Tree for BY11573 yet, but mention those in that Group also (Thomas, Merrick and Bennett and perhaps a few others).

Joel Hartley

Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

James Bennett
 

Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad

Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Jared Smith
 

Thomas Goff's SNP pack results are in and he has moved way down to the
tips of the Z17911 branch. He is both BY11573+ (currently with Thomas,
Bennett, and Merrick) and also BY11565+ which is only Merrick.

With him and Merrick both having this SNP, this creates a new BY11565+
branch of our tree!!! I had this as a theoretical branch, but this
confirms it. It also adds additional credibility to BY11573 as a very
solid branch, and pushes the tips of this branch at least 100 years
closer to present day.

Thank you Mr. Goff for investing in this test!

I need to process and analyze these results a bit more, but have
updated the SNP tree at http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp. I catch a
flight for NYC early in the morning, but will soon notify Mike W. to
update his R-L513 tree. I also think that FTDNA should probably also
push a terminal SNP name update for all 4 of you to reflect these
findings.

I'm not sure if Merrick has done a FamilyFinder test, but if so, it
would be worth checking for an autosomal DNA match between you. It's
probably a long shot, but a match would place your common ancestor
within the last few hundred years.

Unfortunately, this does cause some disruption to Joel's STR analysis
in his wonderful blog post today. The STRs he suggests map to Z17911
and Z11573 work for everyone - except for Goff - who is just the
opposite. I, like Joel, had presumed that Goff would stay at Z17911
based on his STR results. He's a very close STR match to me, but I
don't have BY11573 or BY11565. I guess this shows that STRs (at least
less than 111+ of them) are still just a rough predictor of haplogroup
- especially for this last ~1000 years of our branch.

This is all very exciting to me!

Jared

Re: Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Joel Hartley
 

Hi Jared,

Thanks for the late breaking news. I agree that this is all very exciting and good fun. A lot of the excitement is watching the branching of our own little part of the human tree before our eyes.

I was guessing that many of these people were pushing down past Z17911 where you and I are, but was surprised by the new results. Jared, if I am really at A11130, then that leaves you alone at Z17911. However, that should change soon once you get your Big Y results.

I suppose that these could be fast moving SNPs or I missed the STRs where all the changes are happening or there were a lot of back mutations. Haha, back to the drawing board.

Joel


Joel


YFull

Charles Thomas
 

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Charles Thomas
 

Now I see how to reply! :-)

To Thomas Goff, I'm happy you got your results back. Thanks for having the analysis. 

Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

Jared Smith
 

James -

Here's a long writeup that may be helpful.

STR mutations are passed down from father to son, with a change in an
STR value happening every few generations (more or less). Analyzing
STRs can tell you generally how related two people are. The more STR
values that are the same or very similar, the more closely you are
likely to be related. The more STRs you test, the more accuracy you
get. We've all tested to at least 67 STRs, so we have pretty good
accuracy. But STRs fluctuate a bit and change somewhat regularly (some
more than others), so it's difficult to place an exact timeline or
degree of relationship to the individual mutations.

What Joel is analyzing is the differences between the STRs each of us
have and the most common STR signature (mode values) we all have (or
groups of us have) collectively. The more different someone's STRs are
from the mode values of everyone else in a group, the more distantly
related they likely are. That's what Joel's charts are showing - an
estimation of relationship over time based on STR similarities and
differences.

STR comparisons are what have allowed us to find people that probably
have the R-Z16357 SNP mutation because their tested STRs are very
similar to others that we know are R-Z16357.

SNP mutations generally occur with one specific man and are then
passed down forever to his grandsons. As these distinct mutations are
identified, we can build a tree that shows a history of mutations
(typically one mutation occurs every 100 years or so). Each distinct
mutation is assigned a haplogroup name (e.g., "R-Z16357").

Big-Y testing identifies lots of SNPs - some shared with others and
some that only that Big-Y tester has (called 'private' SNPs).

The difficulty with SNPs is that it takes at least two people getting
positive tests for a particular SNP to verify that it came from a
common ancestor - and to start to assign a timeline to when that
mutation occurred. If an SNP isn't shared among relatives (it's a
private SNP), then it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful (at
least initially until perhaps someone else tests positive for it then
it is no longer private to only one person).

Merrick was identified as having the BY11565 private SNP - nobody else
had yet tested positive for it. Goff's test results just show that he
has the same BY11565 SNP. So this verifies that it came from a common
ancestor and isn't a very recent, private SNP at all. Because BY11565
is shared by only Goff and Merrick, but BY11573 is shared by Bennett,
Thomas, Goff, and Merrick, we thus know that BY11565 is more recent
than BY11573 - a Goff/Merrick ancestor formed this mutation, but not a
Bennett/Thomas/Goff/Merrick ancestor.

Because BY11565 is the most unique, yet also shared SNP they have,
this is their new terminal SNP (the word "terminal" being used a bit
loosely because it can change).

As another example, Joel Hartley has a current terminal SNP of Z17911.
He has also tested positive for the (currently) private A11130 SNP
that nobody else has yet tested positive for. So we know A11130 is
younger than Z17911, otherwise others of us would have it too. We just
don't know how much younger it is.

To try to 'prove' an SNP as being from a common ancestor, you want to
test the most distantly related person you can find that shares that
known or potential male-line ancestor. If Joel's brother tests
A11130+, this would tell us nothing new because A11130 may have
occurred at their father. If his 7th cousin tests A11130+, then we
would know the SNP is at least as old as their 6th great-grandfather
(and younger than Z17911).

So, the goal of our project is to identify distantly related cousins
(based on surnames, genealogies, and/or STR relationships) to try to
both identify (via Big-Y) and 'prove' (via Big-Y or other SNP tests)
younger and younger SNPs/branches. Each new shared SNP/branch moves us
closer to present day.

Eventually our tree will have a whole suite of shared SNPs identified.
If someone is an STR and/or surname match to someone else in our
group, an inexpensive SNP test could then establish exactly how they
connect to our tree on that line, and thus the rest of humanity. This
is the end goal - and we're making good progress toward getting there.

Jared

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, James Bennett <james@...> wrote:
Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad

Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

HI Jared, I think the Martyn at GD4 is the Martin on my FTDNA matches page GD4 at 37 markers. He identifies Thomas Charles Martin as his MDKA. He is GD5 at 67markers. His son his GD5 and GD6 from me at 37 and 67. At 37 I also have the following:

Dean GD3

Ferneyhough GD4

At 25 markers, names not already represented:

three Lewis GD2

Thanks,

Charles Thomas


Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

PS: The Martin son I mentioned is actually not listed for me at 37 markers which means he was GD5+ compared with me, but most likely he was GD5 at 37. 

Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

James Bennett
 

Fantastic, thanks!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 10:46 PM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:

James -

Here's a long writeup that may be helpful.

STR mutations are passed down from father to son, with a change in an
STR value happening every few generations (more or less). Analyzing
STRs can tell you generally how related two people are. The more STR
values that are the same or very similar, the more closely you are
likely to be related. The more STRs you test, the more accuracy you
get. We've all tested to at least 67 STRs, so we have pretty good
accuracy. But STRs fluctuate a bit and change somewhat regularly (some
more than others), so it's difficult to place an exact timeline or
degree of relationship to the individual mutations.

What Joel is analyzing is the differences between the STRs each of us
have and the most common STR signature (mode values) we all have (or
groups of us have) collectively. The more different someone's STRs are
from the mode values of everyone else in a group, the more distantly
related they likely are. That's what Joel's charts are showing - an
estimation of relationship over time based on STR similarities and
differences.

STR comparisons are what have allowed us to find people that probably
have the R-Z16357 SNP mutation because their tested STRs are very
similar to others that we know are R-Z16357.

SNP mutations generally occur with one specific man and are then
passed down forever to his grandsons. As these distinct mutations are
identified, we can build a tree that shows a history of mutations
(typically one mutation occurs every 100 years or so). Each distinct
mutation is assigned a haplogroup name (e.g., "R-Z16357").

Big-Y testing identifies lots of SNPs - some shared with others and
some that only that Big-Y tester has (called 'private' SNPs).

The difficulty with SNPs is that it takes at least two people getting
positive tests for a particular SNP to verify that it came from a
common ancestor - and to start to assign a timeline to when that
mutation occurred. If an SNP isn't shared among relatives (it's a
private SNP), then it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful (at
least initially until perhaps someone else tests positive for it then
it is no longer private to only one person).

Merrick was identified as having the BY11565 private SNP - nobody else
had yet tested positive for it. Goff's test results just show that he
has the same BY11565 SNP. So this verifies that it came from a common
ancestor and isn't a very recent, private SNP at all. Because BY11565
is shared by only Goff and Merrick, but BY11573 is shared by Bennett,
Thomas, Goff, and Merrick, we thus know that BY11565 is more recent
than BY11573 - a Goff/Merrick ancestor formed this mutation, but not a
Bennett/Thomas/Goff/Merrick ancestor.

Because BY11565 is the most unique, yet also shared SNP they have,
this is their new terminal SNP (the word "terminal" being used a bit
loosely because it can change).

As another example, Joel Hartley has a current terminal SNP of Z17911.
He has also tested positive for the (currently) private A11130 SNP
that nobody else has yet tested positive for. So we know A11130 is
younger than Z17911, otherwise others of us would have it too. We just
don't know how much younger it is.

To try to 'prove' an SNP as being from a common ancestor, you want to
test the most distantly related person you can find that shares that
known or potential male-line ancestor. If Joel's brother tests
A11130+, this would tell us nothing new because A11130 may have
occurred at their father. If his 7th cousin tests A11130+, then we
would know the SNP is at least as old as their 6th great-grandfather
(and younger than Z17911).

So, the goal of our project is to identify distantly related cousins
(based on surnames, genealogies, and/or STR relationships) to try to
both identify (via Big-Y) and 'prove' (via Big-Y or other SNP tests)
younger and younger SNPs/branches. Each new shared SNP/branch moves us
closer to present day.

Eventually our tree will have a whole suite of shared SNPs identified.
If someone is an STR and/or surname match to someone else in our
group, an inexpensive SNP test could then establish exactly how they
connect to our tree on that line, and thus the rest of humanity. This
is the end goal - and we're making good progress toward getting there.

Jared

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, James Bennett <james@...> wrote:
Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad


Re: YFull

James Bennett
 

I'm in the queue

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: YFull

Charles Thomas
 

Thanks James, BY11573 cousin




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of James Bennett <james@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 2:42 AM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] YFull
 
I'm in the queue

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393DYS 390DYS 19/394DYS 391DYS 385aDYS 385bDYS 426DYS 388DYS 439DYS 389-1
13251411111412121314
DYS 392DYS 389-2DYS 458DYS 459aDYS 459bDYS 455DYS 454DYS 447DYS 437DYS 448
1330199101111251519
DYS 449DYS 464aDYS 464bDYS 464cDYS 464dDYS 460GATA H4YCA IIaYCA IIbDYS 456
31151517171111192315
DYS 607DYS 576DYS 570CDY aCDY bDYS 442DYS 438
15171738381212

Re: Project update

Joel Hartley
 

That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel

On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12


Re: Project update

Jared Smith
 

Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12



Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12