Date   
Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

Looks great, Jared. The Griffin #121779, however, has 19 at DYS458 but that's still a very close match with the ones you included. It would be great if #121779 could be contacted and persuaded to update his results to 37, 67, or 111, or BigY or SNP packs.


NC is where I am currently researching my James Thomas. He is likely the one in Wayne County, NC, 1790, but as of yet I have no place of birth. (Ancestry indexes him as being in Johnston County in 1790, but he is actually on the last page of Wayne county.) He may or may not be related to the other Thomases in the same county that year. I'm continuing to look for paper trails.


I wrote to several near-matches this afternoon. I hope it will get good results. I also checked my 12-marker near-matches and two of them are listed as L513: Riley and "J.E." I wrote them also. Maybe "J.E." is Evans??? Or maybe not. Hopefully we will find out.

Later,

Charles


From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 3:38 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

I was only peripherally aware of the SMGF database. It's a bad deal what happened to it. It wasn't an LDS-only project, though they did focus aspects of it to LDS church members because of fairly close family lines and extensive genealogical documentation.

I did not add the #121779 Griffin. I've limited my spreadsheet to those with Y37+ to increase accuracy and decrease bloat. But the #285685 Griffin we do have listed is a 25/25 match with #121779.

I looked to see if the Evans from ySearch is in the Evans FTDNA surname project. He's not, but out of curiosity, I analyzed STRs for all ~200 people in the project who have tested to Y37+. Three are relatively close to our haplotype - 71435, 290595, and 281131. I've added these to the online spreadsheets (http://dna.smithplanet.com/str).

One thing I look for is people that have a lower GD to those of us lower on the Z16357 branch than Smith at the top - this would suggest they are most likely downstream from Z16357. These men fit this pattern. If you check them out (at the bottom of the GDs spreadsheet), you'll see an interesting pattern. The Evans from ySearch (YS-VU8W9) is a remarkably close match to almost everyone in the spreadsheet (except the Smiths, etc. at the top)! The three other Evans are more distant, but also about equally matched throughout the spreadsheet. They don't associate closely with some other known surname or SNP cluster like others do.

I'm quite intrigued by this. It could suggest a distinct Evans line that branches off near Z17911. Either way, the ySearch Evans is certainly of high interest to our project - especially if he can trace his line that far back.

Another VERY strong pattern I'm seeing is genealogical ties to North Carolina. The Phillips/Vaughn/Watkins/Griffin/Evans/etc. people almost all have ties to Northern North Carolina, Virginia, and a few surrounding states. Many list distant ancestors that lived within ~100 miles of each other. I can't see how this could be a coincidence. This may indicate a closely related family or geographical relationship in the British Isles, and then emigration together to this region.

Connecting these lines genealogically could be very valuable for us. I'm hoping to get some more Phillips and Vaughan testers once we get Brent's results.

STR analysis also shows two distinct Vaughn/Vaughan STR groupings with Phillips between them. This *may* suggest that the Phillips branched from the Vaughn/Vaughan line.

Jared


On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

HI Jared,

Did you add Griffin #121779? Only 25 markers listed but 22/25 or 21/25 with me depending on interpretation of 464.

Yes, I would be glad to write the Lewises and Ferneyhough and Dean. I will cc you. Ferneyhough lists Joseph Ferneyhough 1750-1801 as MDKA. Both Ferneyhough and Dean are listed only as R-M269, no trees linked.

I noted that interesting Evans info also, but a few months ago I figured out that the name and dates were askew. I'll look up my notes.

Were you familiar with SMGF, Sorenson Molecular Genealogical Foundation? The database is inaccessible now. It is LDS and I am not, but a few years ago I was able to search it and found another near-match with an Evans who emigrated from Carmarthen, Wales, to the US in the 1800s. From Kidwelly, I think. I'll have to look for my paper notes on that near-match also, but I think it was a nearer match than with the above Evans.

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:51 AM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Here's another quick update...

I've updated the STR and GD spreadsheets. I changed the STR spreadsheet to utilize DYS389b for slightly better accuracy - details at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/conversations/messages/8564 This made some minor changes to the GD spreadsheet.



Charles, do you have any additional details (ancestor names, terminal SNP, etc.) for Dean and Ferneyhough? I don't see them anywhere else, so can't find their STRs to check them.

I did add your Evans and Lewis matches to the spreadsheets. They're close matches to you and the Martyn people, so likely in one of our haplogroups. Of particular interest is that Evans lists his ancestor as being born 1170 in Ireland. I do hope you hear back from him, and perhaps you could contact the Lewis matches as well.

Jared










On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:
Charles -

I think the Martyns I have on my spreadsheet are different than the two Martins you're referring to (Dan and Wyatt), because these Martyns are fairly distantly related to Chuck Martin - the only one with the Martin surname I have listed. I'll see if I can find info on the others and would appreciate any additional information you can provide (particularly kit #s if you have them).

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12






Re: Project update

Jared Smith
 

Charles -

I was only peripherally aware of the SMGF database. It's a bad deal what happened to it. It wasn't an LDS-only project, though they did focus aspects of it to LDS church members because of fairly close family lines and extensive genealogical documentation.

I did not add the #121779 Griffin. I've limited my spreadsheet to those with Y37+ to increase accuracy and decrease bloat. But the #285685 Griffin we do have listed is a 25/25 match with #121779.

I looked to see if the Evans from ySearch is in the Evans FTDNA surname project. He's not, but out of curiosity, I analyzed STRs for all ~200 people in the project who have tested to Y37+. Three are relatively close to our haplotype - 71435, 290595, and 281131. I've added these to the online spreadsheets (http://dna.smithplanet.com/str).

One thing I look for is people that have a lower GD to those of us lower on the Z16357 branch than Smith at the top - this would suggest they are most likely downstream from Z16357. These men fit this pattern. If you check them out (at the bottom of the GDs spreadsheet), you'll see an interesting pattern. The Evans from ySearch (YS-VU8W9) is a remarkably close match to almost everyone in the spreadsheet (except the Smiths, etc. at the top)! The three other Evans are more distant, but also about equally matched throughout the spreadsheet. They don't associate closely with some other known surname or SNP cluster like others do.

I'm quite intrigued by this. It could suggest a distinct Evans line that branches off near Z17911. Either way, the ySearch Evans is certainly of high interest to our project - especially if he can trace his line that far back.

Another VERY strong pattern I'm seeing is genealogical ties to North Carolina. The Phillips/Vaughn/Watkins/Griffin/Evans/etc. people almost all have ties to Northern North Carolina, Virginia, and a few surrounding states. Many list distant ancestors that lived within ~100 miles of each other. I can't see how this could be a coincidence. This may indicate a closely related family or geographical relationship in the British Isles, and then emigration together to this region.

Connecting these lines genealogically could be very valuable for us. I'm hoping to get some more Phillips and Vaughan testers once we get Brent's results.

STR analysis also shows two distinct Vaughn/Vaughan STR groupings with Phillips between them. This *may* suggest that the Phillips branched from the Vaughn/Vaughan line.

Jared


On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

HI Jared,

Did you add Griffin #121779? Only 25 markers listed but 22/25 or 21/25 with me depending on interpretation of 464.

Yes, I would be glad to write the Lewises and Ferneyhough and Dean. I will cc you. Ferneyhough lists Joseph Ferneyhough 1750-1801 as MDKA. Both Ferneyhough and Dean are listed only as R-M269, no trees linked.

I noted that interesting Evans info also, but a few months ago I figured out that the name and dates were askew. I'll look up my notes.

Were you familiar with SMGF, Sorenson Molecular Genealogical Foundation? The database is inaccessible now. It is LDS and I am not, but a few years ago I was able to search it and found another near-match with an Evans who emigrated from Carmarthen, Wales, to the US in the 1800s. From Kidwelly, I think. I'll have to look for my paper notes on that near-match also, but I think it was a nearer match than with the above Evans.

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:51 AM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Here's another quick update...

I've updated the STR and GD spreadsheets. I changed the STR spreadsheet to utilize DYS389b for slightly better accuracy - details at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/conversations/messages/8564 This made some minor changes to the GD spreadsheet.



Charles, do you have any additional details (ancestor names, terminal SNP, etc.) for Dean and Ferneyhough? I don't see them anywhere else, so can't find their STRs to check them.

I did add your Evans and Lewis matches to the spreadsheets. They're close matches to you and the Martyn people, so likely in one of our haplogroups. Of particular interest is that Evans lists his ancestor as being born 1170 in Ireland. I do hope you hear back from him, and perhaps you could contact the Lewis matches as well.

Jared










On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:
Charles -

I think the Martyns I have on my spreadsheet are different than the two Martins you're referring to (Dan and Wyatt), because these Martyns are fairly distantly related to Chuck Martin - the only one with the Martin surname I have listed. I'll see if I can find info on the others and would appreciate any additional information you can provide (particularly kit #s if you have them).

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12






Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

HI Jared,

Did you add Griffin #121779? Only 25 markers listed but 22/25 or 21/25 with me depending on interpretation of 464.

Yes, I would be glad to write the Lewises and Ferneyhough and Dean. I will cc you. Ferneyhough lists Joseph Ferneyhough 1750-1801 as MDKA. Both Ferneyhough and Dean are listed only as R-M269, no trees linked.

I noted that interesting Evans info also, but a few months ago I figured out that the name and dates were askew. I'll look up my notes.

Were you familiar with SMGF, Sorenson Molecular Genealogical Foundation? The database is inaccessible now. It is LDS and I am not, but a few years ago I was able to search it and found another near-match with an Evans who emigrated from Carmarthen, Wales, to the US in the 1800s. From Kidwelly, I think. I'll have to look for my paper notes on that near-match also, but I think it was a nearer match than with the above Evans.

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:51 AM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Here's another quick update...

I've updated the STR and GD spreadsheets. I changed the STR spreadsheet to utilize DYS389b for slightly better accuracy - details at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/conversations/messages/8564 This made some minor changes to the GD spreadsheet.

groups.yahoo.com
/



Charles, do you have any additional details (ancestor names, terminal SNP, etc.) for Dean and Ferneyhough? I don't see them anywhere else, so can't find their STRs to check them.

I did add your Evans and Lewis matches to the spreadsheets. They're close matches to you and the Martyn people, so likely in one of our haplogroups. Of particular interest is that Evans lists his ancestor as being born 1170 in Ireland. I do hope you hear back from him, and perhaps you could contact the Lewis matches as well.

Jared










On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:
Charles -

I think the Martyns I have on my spreadsheet are different than the two Martins you're referring to (Dan and Wyatt), because these Martyns are fairly distantly related to Chuck Martin - the only one with the Martin surname I have listed. I'll see if I can find info on the others and would appreciate any additional information you can provide (particularly kit #s if you have them).

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12





Re: Project update

Jared Smith
 

Here's another quick update...

I've updated the STR and GD spreadsheets. I changed the STR spreadsheet to utilize DYS389b for slightly better accuracy - details at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/conversations/messages/8564 This made some minor changes to the GD spreadsheet.

Charles, do you have any additional details (ancestor names, terminal SNP, etc.) for Dean and Ferneyhough? I don't see them anywhere else, so can't find their STRs to check them.

I did add your Evans and Lewis matches to the spreadsheets. They're close matches to you and the Martyn people, so likely in one of our haplogroups. Of particular interest is that Evans lists his ancestor as being born 1170 in Ireland. I do hope you hear back from him, and perhaps you could contact the Lewis matches as well.

Jared










On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:
Charles -

I think the Martyns I have on my spreadsheet are different than the two Martins you're referring to (Dan and Wyatt), because these Martyns are fairly distantly related to Chuck Martin - the only one with the Martin surname I have listed. I'll see if I can find info on the others and would appreciate any additional information you can provide (particularly kit #s if you have them).

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12





Re: Project update

Jared Smith
 

Charles -

I think the Martyns I have on my spreadsheet are different than the two Martins you're referring to (Dan and Wyatt), because these Martyns are fairly distantly related to Chuck Martin - the only one with the Martin surname I have listed. I'll see if I can find info on the others and would appreciate any additional information you can provide (particularly kit #s if you have them).

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12




Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

Thanks, Jared, that sounds great.

Could it be that the Martyn people are different than the Martin father and son (Dan and Wyatt)? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part. It was my understanding from Dan that Chuck was a nearly identical yDNA STR match to him and his son but that they had thus far been unable to find their shared ancestor.

I looked up my most recent correspondence with Dan Martin in December when I let him know of the S5668 SNP pack. I don't know whether he ordered. If I write him again may I include your email address if he has further questions? I know that he was somewhat skeptical of the percentage probabilities of relatedness within so many generations. 

Charles




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of Jared Smith <jared@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:01 PM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] Project update
 
Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12



Re: Project update

Jared Smith
 

Charles -

This gives me some more people to research and add to the spreadsheet. Thanks for letting me know about them. And I hadn't yet explored Ysearch for matches, but will do so. And Mike W. has a new spreadsheet out with more people too. I'll try to get through these this weekend.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, the two Martyn people (222341 and 206941) are different than Chuck Martin (161394). Chuck is subscribed to this mailing list and has ordered the SNP pack. We'll know his place on the tree very soon.

The Martyn people and Martin are GD=9 from each other, so fairly distantly related. But Charles, you're right in the middle of them as far as your STR results go (GD=4 or 5 from each), so it would look to you like they're probably more closely related than they actually are. I was going to wait until Chuck's results come back, then contact the Martyn people to see if they're interested in testing as well.

Thanks,

Jared


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Joel Hartley <joel@...> wrote:
That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel


On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12



Re: Project update

Joel Hartley
 

That meets the numbers that Mike Walsh has for the "J" group in L513 which I take to be the same as the Z17911 Group.

Joel

On 1/26/2017 1:11 PM, Charles Thomas wrote:

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1
13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14
DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448
13 30 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438
15 17 17 38 38 12 12


Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

PPS: I have an Evans match at ysearch, gd5 from me at 37 markers. I tried to contact him but no reply as of yet.

 

DYS 393DYS 390DYS 19/394DYS 391DYS 385aDYS 385bDYS 426DYS 388DYS 439DYS 389-1
13251411111412121314
DYS 392DYS 389-2DYS 458DYS 459aDYS 459bDYS 455DYS 454DYS 447DYS 437DYS 448
1330199101111251519
DYS 449DYS 464aDYS 464bDYS 464cDYS 464dDYS 460GATA H4YCA IIaYCA IIbDYS 456
31151517171111192315
DYS 607DYS 576DYS 570CDY aCDY bDYS 442DYS 438
15171738381212

Re: YFull

Charles Thomas
 

Thanks James, BY11573 cousin




From: Z16357@groups.io <Z16357@groups.io> on behalf of James Bennett <james@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 2:42 AM
To: Z16357@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Z16357] YFull
 
I'm in the queue

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: YFull

James Bennett
 

I'm in the queue

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Charles Thomas <charles_002@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

James Bennett
 

Fantastic, thanks!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2017, at 10:46 PM, Jared Smith <jared@...> wrote:

James -

Here's a long writeup that may be helpful.

STR mutations are passed down from father to son, with a change in an
STR value happening every few generations (more or less). Analyzing
STRs can tell you generally how related two people are. The more STR
values that are the same or very similar, the more closely you are
likely to be related. The more STRs you test, the more accuracy you
get. We've all tested to at least 67 STRs, so we have pretty good
accuracy. But STRs fluctuate a bit and change somewhat regularly (some
more than others), so it's difficult to place an exact timeline or
degree of relationship to the individual mutations.

What Joel is analyzing is the differences between the STRs each of us
have and the most common STR signature (mode values) we all have (or
groups of us have) collectively. The more different someone's STRs are
from the mode values of everyone else in a group, the more distantly
related they likely are. That's what Joel's charts are showing - an
estimation of relationship over time based on STR similarities and
differences.

STR comparisons are what have allowed us to find people that probably
have the R-Z16357 SNP mutation because their tested STRs are very
similar to others that we know are R-Z16357.

SNP mutations generally occur with one specific man and are then
passed down forever to his grandsons. As these distinct mutations are
identified, we can build a tree that shows a history of mutations
(typically one mutation occurs every 100 years or so). Each distinct
mutation is assigned a haplogroup name (e.g., "R-Z16357").

Big-Y testing identifies lots of SNPs - some shared with others and
some that only that Big-Y tester has (called 'private' SNPs).

The difficulty with SNPs is that it takes at least two people getting
positive tests for a particular SNP to verify that it came from a
common ancestor - and to start to assign a timeline to when that
mutation occurred. If an SNP isn't shared among relatives (it's a
private SNP), then it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful (at
least initially until perhaps someone else tests positive for it then
it is no longer private to only one person).

Merrick was identified as having the BY11565 private SNP - nobody else
had yet tested positive for it. Goff's test results just show that he
has the same BY11565 SNP. So this verifies that it came from a common
ancestor and isn't a very recent, private SNP at all. Because BY11565
is shared by only Goff and Merrick, but BY11573 is shared by Bennett,
Thomas, Goff, and Merrick, we thus know that BY11565 is more recent
than BY11573 - a Goff/Merrick ancestor formed this mutation, but not a
Bennett/Thomas/Goff/Merrick ancestor.

Because BY11565 is the most unique, yet also shared SNP they have,
this is their new terminal SNP (the word "terminal" being used a bit
loosely because it can change).

As another example, Joel Hartley has a current terminal SNP of Z17911.
He has also tested positive for the (currently) private A11130 SNP
that nobody else has yet tested positive for. So we know A11130 is
younger than Z17911, otherwise others of us would have it too. We just
don't know how much younger it is.

To try to 'prove' an SNP as being from a common ancestor, you want to
test the most distantly related person you can find that shares that
known or potential male-line ancestor. If Joel's brother tests
A11130+, this would tell us nothing new because A11130 may have
occurred at their father. If his 7th cousin tests A11130+, then we
would know the SNP is at least as old as their 6th great-grandfather
(and younger than Z17911).

So, the goal of our project is to identify distantly related cousins
(based on surnames, genealogies, and/or STR relationships) to try to
both identify (via Big-Y) and 'prove' (via Big-Y or other SNP tests)
younger and younger SNPs/branches. Each new shared SNP/branch moves us
closer to present day.

Eventually our tree will have a whole suite of shared SNPs identified.
If someone is an STR and/or surname match to someone else in our
group, an inexpensive SNP test could then establish exactly how they
connect to our tree on that line, and thus the rest of humanity. This
is the end goal - and we're making good progress toward getting there.

Jared

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, James Bennett <james@...> wrote:
Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad


Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

PS: The Martin son I mentioned is actually not listed for me at 37 markers which means he was GD5+ compared with me, but most likely he was GD5 at 37. 

Re: Project update

Charles Thomas
 

HI Jared, I think the Martyn at GD4 is the Martin on my FTDNA matches page GD4 at 37 markers. He identifies Thomas Charles Martin as his MDKA. He is GD5 at 67markers. His son his GD5 and GD6 from me at 37 and 67. At 37 I also have the following:

Dean GD3

Ferneyhough GD4

At 25 markers, names not already represented:

three Lewis GD2

Thanks,

Charles Thomas


Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

Jared Smith
 

James -

Here's a long writeup that may be helpful.

STR mutations are passed down from father to son, with a change in an
STR value happening every few generations (more or less). Analyzing
STRs can tell you generally how related two people are. The more STR
values that are the same or very similar, the more closely you are
likely to be related. The more STRs you test, the more accuracy you
get. We've all tested to at least 67 STRs, so we have pretty good
accuracy. But STRs fluctuate a bit and change somewhat regularly (some
more than others), so it's difficult to place an exact timeline or
degree of relationship to the individual mutations.

What Joel is analyzing is the differences between the STRs each of us
have and the most common STR signature (mode values) we all have (or
groups of us have) collectively. The more different someone's STRs are
from the mode values of everyone else in a group, the more distantly
related they likely are. That's what Joel's charts are showing - an
estimation of relationship over time based on STR similarities and
differences.

STR comparisons are what have allowed us to find people that probably
have the R-Z16357 SNP mutation because their tested STRs are very
similar to others that we know are R-Z16357.

SNP mutations generally occur with one specific man and are then
passed down forever to his grandsons. As these distinct mutations are
identified, we can build a tree that shows a history of mutations
(typically one mutation occurs every 100 years or so). Each distinct
mutation is assigned a haplogroup name (e.g., "R-Z16357").

Big-Y testing identifies lots of SNPs - some shared with others and
some that only that Big-Y tester has (called 'private' SNPs).

The difficulty with SNPs is that it takes at least two people getting
positive tests for a particular SNP to verify that it came from a
common ancestor - and to start to assign a timeline to when that
mutation occurred. If an SNP isn't shared among relatives (it's a
private SNP), then it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful (at
least initially until perhaps someone else tests positive for it then
it is no longer private to only one person).

Merrick was identified as having the BY11565 private SNP - nobody else
had yet tested positive for it. Goff's test results just show that he
has the same BY11565 SNP. So this verifies that it came from a common
ancestor and isn't a very recent, private SNP at all. Because BY11565
is shared by only Goff and Merrick, but BY11573 is shared by Bennett,
Thomas, Goff, and Merrick, we thus know that BY11565 is more recent
than BY11573 - a Goff/Merrick ancestor formed this mutation, but not a
Bennett/Thomas/Goff/Merrick ancestor.

Because BY11565 is the most unique, yet also shared SNP they have,
this is their new terminal SNP (the word "terminal" being used a bit
loosely because it can change).

As another example, Joel Hartley has a current terminal SNP of Z17911.
He has also tested positive for the (currently) private A11130 SNP
that nobody else has yet tested positive for. So we know A11130 is
younger than Z17911, otherwise others of us would have it too. We just
don't know how much younger it is.

To try to 'prove' an SNP as being from a common ancestor, you want to
test the most distantly related person you can find that shares that
known or potential male-line ancestor. If Joel's brother tests
A11130+, this would tell us nothing new because A11130 may have
occurred at their father. If his 7th cousin tests A11130+, then we
would know the SNP is at least as old as their 6th great-grandfather
(and younger than Z17911).

So, the goal of our project is to identify distantly related cousins
(based on surnames, genealogies, and/or STR relationships) to try to
both identify (via Big-Y) and 'prove' (via Big-Y or other SNP tests)
younger and younger SNPs/branches. Each new shared SNP/branch moves us
closer to present day.

Eventually our tree will have a whole suite of shared SNPs identified.
If someone is an STR and/or surname match to someone else in our
group, an inexpensive SNP test could then establish exactly how they
connect to our tree on that line, and thus the rest of humanity. This
is the end goal - and we're making good progress toward getting there.

Jared

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, James Bennett <james@...> wrote:
Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad

Re: Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Charles Thomas
 

Now I see how to reply! :-)

To Thomas Goff, I'm happy you got your results back. Thanks for having the analysis. 

YFull

Charles Thomas
 

Hello all,

Just wondering if one of us is the new result in process at YFull? Joel Hartley and I are currently there on the R-Z16351 branch, but a new number is listed there with "Analysis in progress..."

Thanks again to Jared for starting this group, and to Jared and Joel for allthe analysis.

I couldn't figure out how to reply to the topic thread regarding Thomas Goff's results, so I will say here congrats on getting your results and they help each of us in discovering our origins.

Charles Thomas

Re: Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Joel Hartley
 

Hi Jared,

Thanks for the late breaking news. I agree that this is all very exciting and good fun. A lot of the excitement is watching the branching of our own little part of the human tree before our eyes.

I was guessing that many of these people were pushing down past Z17911 where you and I are, but was surprised by the new results. Jared, if I am really at A11130, then that leaves you alone at Z17911. However, that should change soon once you get your Big Y results.

I suppose that these could be fast moving SNPs or I missed the STRs where all the changes are happening or there were a lot of back mutations. Haha, back to the drawing board.

Joel


Joel


Goff's results and a new branch is born!

Jared Smith
 

Thomas Goff's SNP pack results are in and he has moved way down to the
tips of the Z17911 branch. He is both BY11573+ (currently with Thomas,
Bennett, and Merrick) and also BY11565+ which is only Merrick.

With him and Merrick both having this SNP, this creates a new BY11565+
branch of our tree!!! I had this as a theoretical branch, but this
confirms it. It also adds additional credibility to BY11573 as a very
solid branch, and pushes the tips of this branch at least 100 years
closer to present day.

Thank you Mr. Goff for investing in this test!

I need to process and analyze these results a bit more, but have
updated the SNP tree at http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp. I catch a
flight for NYC early in the morning, but will soon notify Mike W. to
update his R-L513 tree. I also think that FTDNA should probably also
push a terminal SNP name update for all 4 of you to reflect these
findings.

I'm not sure if Merrick has done a FamilyFinder test, but if so, it
would be worth checking for an autosomal DNA match between you. It's
probably a long shot, but a match would place your common ancestor
within the last few hundred years.

Unfortunately, this does cause some disruption to Joel's STR analysis
in his wonderful blog post today. The STRs he suggests map to Z17911
and Z11573 work for everyone - except for Goff - who is just the
opposite. I, like Joel, had presumed that Goff would stay at Z17911
based on his STR results. He's a very close STR match to me, but I
don't have BY11573 or BY11565. I guess this shows that STRs (at least
less than 111+ of them) are still just a rough predictor of haplogroup
- especially for this last ~1000 years of our branch.

This is all very exciting to me!

Jared

Re: Blog on Z17911 STR Tree

James Bennett
 

Interesting! But over my head for most of it. Any good links to STR and SNP for Dummies?

Tnx, james

Sent from my iPad