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Re: Quality and Profit are not mutually exclusive.
Mark Johnson
--- In WJMA@yahoogroups.com, Seth Williamson <seth@s...> wrote:
I didn't say a station had to air crap to make money. I merelySeth, I was referring to the general feeling from several posts which seemed to accept the idea that quality was absent due to lack of money. I am taking the position that while money is commonly used as an excuse, it is an invalid one. I was not speaking to the viability of community theater on the air. I agree that that would likely be a non-starter with most PDs in 2003. Your comment regarding "demand for quality" is dead-on-target. At this point people arn't demanding quality because frankly they no longer need radio. It is my theory that radio is slowly being ran in the ground and eventually it will start to dry up and, THEN quality will come back. Who would have thought 30 years ago that McDonalds would have to start closing stores due to poor sales? I will add that I come to this debate only as, 1) A guy who worked in radio for 5.5 years almost 20 years ago, 2) A small business owner for 15 years in a field that is totally unrelated to radio, 3) A person who rarely turns on the radio now days due to the lack of compelling reasons to do so. In short, I am not an idustry expert. Mark "Big Feet" Johnson 81-84
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
Hey Bill:
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Good to hear from you again. Man, it's been a long time. Thanks for the refresher course on agency buys at WJMA. Those are some great stories about your first sales at the station. When I remember national stuff at WJMA, I think maybe I am remembering some of those Washington Senators spots that ran on the network. It may be we did make-goods on some of those other times during the week, I can't remember. I DO remember at WYVE that the agency buys were all over the place. Summer beer and soft-drink money was incredible. Well, with 45 cents commission on that first big sale, you could have celebrated with a Coke or two. Good story! Seth
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:19:48 -0400, bill wrote:
Seth:
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Re: The State of Radio - II
bill <bill@...>
Seth:
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I can tell you that agency buys were virtually nil during the 60's and the entire time that Arch owned the station. Most months we had between nothing and perhaps $1000. We got a LITTLE beer money SOMETIMES and rarely Safeway or maybe IGA..But if we had had to depend on agency buys we would have been BROKE! That's why we had things such as the Sports Broadcaster's Club where the small businesses that couldn't afford REAL advertising could spend a few dollars a month keeping their names in public and helping us get enough money to pay ourselves and our creditors. Believe me, when Arch bought the station he didn't even pay himself for many months, and even in the best of times later, he didn't take enough salary to make a modern radio executive blink. I remember that it took us several months (after he bought the station) to get up to a gross of $5000 a month. I did most of the selling and my first sale was the Ray Faulconer at the old Faulconer hardware on Main street. When I went in to see him. he turned off the light bulb in the area he was in and turned on the light over where the Maytag washing machines were. I was trying to sell him Maytag ads that offered 100% co-op up to a dollar figure based on how many machines he sold. I finally made the sale. He bought two (2) one-minute ads for $1.50 each; total $3.00. My commission was 15% so I pulled in 45 cents. I could tell you what my highest yearly income was at WJMA but I'm too ashamed to admit it. However, it was more than I was making at the station where I worked in Maine to pay my way through college. There I worked 48 hous, seven days a week for $1 an hour an no overtime of course. After two years with no raise I went up to see the owner and told him I thought I deserved a raise. He very nicely told me there were lots of other students who would like my job, and that if I was displeased with my current situation he would understand and wish me luck in any new venture. Now there was a station that made money! Sorry to be so long winded but once I get started its hard to quit! Just like talking on the radio! Cheers! Bill Little Seth Williamson wrote:
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 22:00, jfk@jaykiernan.com wrote:Radio is a business. Duh. But it is unique among most businesses becauseAs it seems to me--from observing the reality versus the ideal for the
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Re: Quality and Profit are not mutually exclusive.
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
This is an interesting post and deserves a longer answer, but just to
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clarify, I didn't say a station had to air crap to make money. I merely observed that airing community theater productions was not a project that would appeal to many (if any at all) programmers in today's market. That this is true seems beyond question. Also, now that I've got a few decades in the business under my belt, I'm a little leery of "the good old days." Quality happens, if there's a demand for it. If there isn't, it doesn't. "You'd better make sure you get what you like, otherwise you'll end up liking what you get," said (I think) George Bernard Shaw.
On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 20:01, rmj142 wrote:
I am puzzled by the suggestion that in order to air quality
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Quality and Profit are not mutually exclusive.
Mark Johnson
I am puzzled by the suggestion that in order to air quality
programming a station must go broke. Or to put it another way, the only way it can make money is to air crap. Stations get away with airing crap when CRAP is what everyone else is airing. Years ago there were thousands of radio stations across America owned by individuals who CARED about QUALITY. Now a few mega-corps own those stations and thus they can butcher the quality. Think about it: If ALL restaurant food tasted like a Big Mac then it would not matter WHERE you ate and no matter where you went you would have to pay $15.95 for a Happy Meal. Does anyone remember the cars Detroit turned out from about 1972 until about 1985? J U N K . Why? Because they could get away with it. Then the overseas competition got strong enough, and Detroit almost went bankrupt. Starting in the Mid-80's (think Ford Taurus) Detroit started VASTLY improving their product. I am an old car nut. Put me in a pasture surrounded by '57 Chevys and '55 T-Birds and I'm a happy camper. Convential wisdom has long held that it was not economically feasable for Detroit to build specialty cars that hark back to that era. Can you say "P T Cruiser"? The day GM gets smart enough to re-release the 1957 Bel Air, they will have a waiting list from here to Dearborn and back. I run a tire store. I hand torque EVERY lug nut on every car I work on. Not because it "makes money" but because it is the right way to do it. (In fact I think it DOES make money over the long haul) Many huge companies care only about RIGHT NOW, they don't think long term and they don't care about their customers. Why else do they constantly pull stunts like making the BAG bigger while cutting the weight that is INSIDE the bag? I think it was Jay who said something to the effect that "principles are principles no matter what decade you live in", exactly. And then it was Ross who observed that "There are lots of industrial age businesses that go through a process as they mature: railroads, telegraph, telephone, computers, the internet to name a few." Outstanding comment. Let's go back to "fast food". Remember when McDonalds and Hardees and Burger King were the primary food chains you saw? Then slowly "better" eating options arrived such as Roy Rogers, Shonies or Denny's. Now we have come to a time where there are Appleby's, Chilli's, Ruby Tuesday, the Outback etc. "Corporate America" slowly caught on to the fact that Americans WOULD pay a few bucks more to eat food that didn't taste like sawdust. Radio is in a phase where quickbuck shysters are in control. By this I mean Clear Channel and the 3 or 4 others who own hundreds of stations. This too shall pass, because eventually the listening public will catch on and turn off. Mark Johnson 81-84
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 22:00, jfk@jaykiernan.com wrote:
Radio is a business. Duh. But it is unique among most businesses becauseAs it seems to me--from observing the reality versus the ideal for the past several decades--this is a dictum that is honored in the breech if at all. I'm not even positive you can say that radio is unique in this regard. One might with some justice say that any business that satisfies a felt need "serves the public." The fact is that "the public" has umpteen different desires, some mundane, some closer to what we think of when we say "public service." What REALLY differentiates radio from other businesses is the finite character of the spectrum. This is a scarce economic resource that is responsible for the fact that "deregulation" does not and can never produce the desired result. Even during Arch's day, there were always some radio execs who understoodI was mulling over this matter this morning when I was out birding. Actually, I have worked at three stations, not two, that were "Arch-like" in the way we mean. One of them, WYVI in Wytheville, was an interesting case in advertising. For many years they were just outside the prime coverage area of any regional TV market--a little too far from Roanoke and Bristol both to get really good signals via rooftop antennae. Consequently, ad agencies bought a phenomenal amount of time for such a small station. Arch used to say that it was Christmas that would make or break a small station. In WYVE's case, summer agency beer money was enough to run the station all year long. "Everything else is gravy," as the sales manager at the time told me when I came to work there. It occurred to me years later that this was one big reason why the place was such a pleasant place to work and why it had had room to do some things that would have been impractical elsewhere. I have been trying to remember if WJMA was in a similar spot when I was there, in the mid-to-late 60s. At the time, I was too green to have appreciated such things. Furthermore, it was during this period that I quit watching TV (that's right, I haven't watched television in 35 years), so I don't even have a strong memory of what the TV situation was like in Orange. I do seem to remember a fair amount of agency beer and soft-drink ads in the summer, but maybe I'm hallucinating those, I can't remember for sure. Does anybody remember for sure what the agency ad buys were like at WJMA in this period? Larger than average? I'd like to know the answer to that.
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Jay Kiernan
It is my belief that Arch Harrison was able to retain quality people, in
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part, because he was always very good at balancing that age old conflict between art and money. He had a quality product, and he never wanted to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Arch had a quality product. He cared very much, and everyone who worked for him knew and appreciated that fact. Radio is a business. Duh. But it is unique among most businesses because it has a responsibility to the public--which it serves via the public airwaves--that most businesses don't have. Local ownership is a definite plus in that regard (though the FCC has trouble with that simple concept). Even during Arch's day, there were always some radio execs who understood the importance of the balancing act, and the art & money conflict was in force even then. Most radio execs didn't handle the balancing act very well back then. Most don't now. Things may be a bit tougher and more complicated today (the present was more complicated than the past back then, too). But I do believe that even if Arch was just starting out right now, that he would keep his sense of that balance, just as he did back then. If Arch were just starting out now, his station would not sound exactly as it did during "The Golden Era." But it would still stand out from the others today, just as it did back then. Principles are principles no matter what decade you happen to inhabit. The quality product that Arch produced has nothing to do with the era in which it was produced. It has to do with the guy who produced it. Personally, I'd like to see Russ own a radio station. There's a bit of that Arch quality in him, too. There are the few like Arch. Then there's everybody else. There were lots of "everybody elses" even during Arch's era. There are always "everybody elses." There always have been/ There always will be. The perspective of time just makes me appreciate Arch all the more. jay kiernan 76-79
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 18:35, R Roberts wrote:In a one station, one newspaper town, creating a sense of community isI am sympathetic to the general concept, but after all these decades in
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Re: The State of Radio - II- art vs science
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
Interesting that you mentioned a Google search, because that's what I
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did immediately. The only thing I've ever turned up this way was a brief mention of vote counts in Illinois or wherever it was that he ran for governor on the Libertarian ticket. Got almost no votes, but I think he was the candidate referenced. If you ever find anything, let me know... Seth
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 20:11, Ross Hunter wrote:
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 19:44, Ross Hunter wrote:Seth,...Joe McCaffrey once wrote in theThis is Joe McCaffrey who briefly worked there mid-days, was a
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Re: The State of Radio - II- art vs science
Ross Hunter <xhunter@...>
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 19:44, Ross Hunter wrote:Seth,...Joe McCaffrey once wrote in theThis is Joe McCaffrey who briefly worked there mid-days, was a Not the same one. I first encountered him when we was a political commentator for WMAL. When he retired he moved to Culpeper and started a newspaper with his son. He wrote a much read "locals" column in the paper. I suppose you could call it a gossip column. Joe died perhaps 10 years ago. The paper was eventually sold to the Star Exponent...a part of the Media General empire. I don't know what happened to the other Joe McCaffrey. Perhaps a Google search is in order. Ross
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Re: The State of Radio - II- art vs science
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 19:44, Ross Hunter wrote:
...Joe McCaffrey once wrote in theThis is Joe McCaffrey who briefly worked there mid-days, was a vociferous libertarian, had a wife who was a stewardess, moved to the midwest and ran for governor somewhere? Do you know what happened to him and where he is now?
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Re: The State of Radio - II- art vs science
Ross Hunter <xhunter@...>
I've been kicking this "state of radio" thread around in my mind for a few days and wonder if it doesn't come down to an art vs science struggle? There are lots of industrial age businesses that go through a process as they mature: railroads, telegraph, telephone, computers, the internet to name a few.
They are begun by inventors or engineers, developed by entrepreneurs and finally taken over buy business people. It's a logical progression once an enterprise shows it can make money. The only problem is that the business people often lack the vision or understanding to know what made the enterprise worthwhile and successful in the first place. I know I'm painting with a rather broad brush here and there certainly are exceptions. We are fortunate that the owners of Orange, Culpeper and Louisa are local people, not some company with an out of state office. I'm sure the stockholders get plenty of unsolicited comments and advice in their day-to-day travels. That's a good thing since it keeps them grounded what the locals think. Joe McCaffrey once wrote in the "Culpeper News" that he thought Arch moved to Charlottesville to get away from all the complaints he got after selling the stations. Just the same as the "out of town suits" can suck the life right out of a radio station, a station run by out of touch artists can be so trendy as to be unlistenable. It's a difficult tightrope to walk. Arch was very good at knowing or sensing how far to drift to the art or science side before needing a correction. He was also good at setting the limits and letting employees have free reign within the boundaries. Given all the radio choices today, it's harder now to develop programming to please a large number of people. And the bottom line is, as the old ad agency slogan went, "It's not creative if it doesn't sell." If you program too much to an audience that doesn't ring the sponsor's cash registers, the business just won't fly. Ross (who is glad he doesn't have to make the decisions, but is willing to offer free advice, which is worth about what you pay for it) 71-86
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 18:35, R Roberts wrote:
In a one station, one newspaper town, creating a sense of community isI am sympathetic to the general concept, but after all these decades in radio, as many in commercial radio as public radio, I have a hard time seeing the typical GM agreeing with you. The "prime directive," at least as I have personally witnessed it over the years, is to make as much money as possible for the owner/s. If public service or the creation of community can be accomplished at the same time, fine. But if not, too bad. In radio, as in a family, a balance must be achieved between art and theSure. It's just that, as I sit here and recall sales managers and GM's I have known, and attempt to visualize the scene where the PD tells them in a meeting that "a balance must be achieved between art and making money," somehow all I can see is stunned silence followed by laughter. I know of a few places where this might not have been the case. WJMA was one; there was one other. It's fruitless to berate the green-eyeshade types; it's just human nature and economic reality. But it's for reasons like this that in several stations where I've worked, the guys selling time were known by the jocks as "sales pigs." It's the old conflict between art and money. What happens in a home where the only concentration is upon financialYou don't have to convince me of the value of such things. I would love to see them incarnated at some small-town station. It's just that long experience suggests that it's unlikely to happen in most places. "Little boxes on the hillside, I humbly offer the above thoughts for your consideration as I keep inOne thing I have to say about Arch is that he seems to have hired a way higher-than-average percentage of people who have actually read books. Radio is filled with people who think of watching Katie Couric as the intellectual high point of the day. When I think back on the WJMA staff I knew, there are a bunch of exceptions to this rule.
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Re: The State of Radio - II
R Roberts <russroberts@...>
When I brought up the subject of theater on the radio, it was the result
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of a brainstorm on what one might do to make small market radio 1) interesting, 2) unique, 3) personal for the listener and 4) create a sense of community. Of course broadcast theater work wouldn't support itself financially. But then, Live Arts, 4CP and countless other community theaters don't support themselves either. They rely upon patrons. A broadcaster could worry about the production, the funding and when to run a theater show without running off the core audience. Never mind all that. The question is, "Is the project worth pursuing and, if so, how are we going to tackle it? Does it support The Prime Programming Directive?" The end result would probably be far removed from the image first glimpsed in the mind's eye. In a one station, one newspaper town, creating a sense of community is The Prime Programming Directive. An enormous potential exists for a small market radio station to be the hub of a community, and not just foster a sense of community, but actually be a town's living room and refrigerator door. In radio, as in a family, a balance must be achieved between art and the "dismal science." When the equation becomes lopsided the family suffers. What happens in a home where the only concentration is upon financial concerns? What happens when the arts, sports and just talking to each other are ignored? What would happen if, because most of our time was taken with fiscal concerns but we still wanted to be a well-rounded and efficient family, we subscribed to a Family Programming Service from some outfit in California? "Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of ticky tacky Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes all the same, There's a green one and a pink one And a blue one and a yellow one And they're all made out of ticky tacky And they all look just the same." -Malvina Reynolds I humbly offer the above thoughts for your consideration as I keep in mind Tolstoy's words, "It is easier to produce ten volumes of philosophical writings than to put one principle into practice." Russ Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: Seth Williamson [mailto:seth@swva.net] Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:11 PM To: WJMA@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [WJMA] The State of Radio - II I have found this thread interesting. Not least because it was an idea I proposed to Arch as a hobbledehoy young part-time announcer in the mid or late 60s. Considered qua an event on the medium of radio, it still strikes me as worth doing. Although I have a better feel now for why Arch rejected the idea then and why, in the intervening years, I think back in amazement that I ever thought such a thing could fly on a commercial radio station. It would be cool if it could happen on a regular basis, even if infrequently. But not for nothing is economics known as the "dismal science." I still find it nearly impossible to believe that theatre on the radio like this could support itself financially. But good luck to whoever wants to try it... Seth Williamson On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 13:01, Rgraves321@aol.com wrote: Again, I agree. You could have the cast on and do, perhaps one scene -which would allow you to pick an excerpt that would work best for radio.This could also be something that runs before the show opens - giving listeners a"sneak peek" of the show, and giving 4FP a reason to promote that broadcast(and the radio station) in THEIR literature and ads......................................................................... WJMA image files are here:http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/lst WJMA other files are here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/files/http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ........................................................................ WJMA image files are here: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/lst WJMA other files are here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/files/ Archive of past messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/messages To unsubscribe, send an email to: WJMA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Seth Williamson <seth@...>
I have found this thread interesting. Not least because it was an idea
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I proposed to Arch as a hobbledehoy young part-time announcer in the mid or late 60s. Considered qua an event on the medium of radio, it still strikes me as worth doing. Although I have a better feel now for why Arch rejected the idea then and why, in the intervening years, I think back in amazement that I ever thought such a thing could fly on a commercial radio station. It would be cool if it could happen on a regular basis, even if infrequently. But not for nothing is economics known as the "dismal science." I still find it nearly impossible to believe that theatre on the radio like this could support itself financially. But good luck to whoever wants to try it... Seth Williamson
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 13:01, Rgraves321@aol.com wrote:
Again, I agree. You could have the cast on and do, perhaps one scene - which
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Re: The State of Radio - II
Ralph Graves
Again, I agree. You could have the cast on and do, perhaps one scene - which
would allow you to pick an excerpt that would work best for radio. This could also be something that runs before the show opens - giving listeners a "sneak peek" of the show, and giving 4FP a reason to promote that broadcast (and the radio station) in THEIR literature and ads. Ralph Graves 1983-1990
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Re: Obit: Ernie Crane
Ross Hunter <xhunter@...>
I sold Ernie Crane his last house. His commentWhat a small circle and small town can be. Arch reminded me in an off-list email that Ernie bought Arch's house on Little Skyline Drive when Arch left Orange for Charlottesville. Ross 71-86
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Re: The State of Radio - II
R Roberts <russroberts@...>
Ralph,
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Thanks for the information on "grand rights." There are many ways to plot a course through the barriers; generate program specific income, have the cast pony up, have the playhouse ante up in exchange for promotion, original local scripts, &c. In any event, the idea is to get the community involved in the radio programming to create interesting content. Russ Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: Rgraves321@aol.com [mailto:Rgraves321@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:11 AM To: WJMA@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [WJMA] The State of Radio - II Russ has a good point. Interns are a great way to augment paid staff. Plus, having a high school report from all the coverage area's high schools is another way to add vital local content. << Working with outfits like 4 County Players, a current play could easily be recorded in a radio version and presented on air after the show closes at the playhouse. >> - This idea won't fly, though. You probably know that radio stations pay blanket licenses to BMI and ASCAP (and sometimes SESAC) to be able to broadcast music. Those licenses don't cover what are called "grand rights." Grand rights cover the broadcast of any dramatic work that is performed in its entirety. For the 4CP to do a broadcast performance of, say, Mame, the station would have to contact the publisher of the work and negotiate and get a grand rights license to air it (usually several hundred dollars). The concept of grand rights originated back when radio was young, and Broadway producers were afraid that if their productions were broadcast, no one would come to the theatre. Grand rights clearances would be necessary if the station wanted to 1) Broadcast the play/musical in its entirety 2) Broadcast of substantial portions of the play/musical in sequence (IE a condensed form) 3) Broadcast of three or more musical selections in sequence The exact definitions vary from publisher to publisher, but the point is that anything that gives the arc of the story (which is why sequence is key) falls under grand rights. These rights apply to any dramatic work, which include not only drama and musicals, but also operas, ballets and any other staged production originally intended for the theatre. Okay, so that kills that idea - but what about having a review of the 4CP production? Again, the paper and the radio station share the expense of having a reviewer cover the event (and I mean $20.00 and you get in free). The reviewer writes up something detailed for the paper, and records a 1-2 minute version for broadcast. Again, the "critics corner" could even be sponsored by somebody. Ralph Graves 1983-1990 ........................................................................ WJMA image files are here: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/lst WJMA other files are here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/files/ Archive of past messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJMA/messages To unsubscribe, send an email to: WJMA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Re: Obit: Ernie Crane
Barbara Potter-Drinkwater
Whoops...to continue... Ernie told me after I sold him his last house,
"Finally my wife is happy. We shall stay there until I die. " I think they did. What a guy! Who you are makes a difference, Love, Willow wild crafted nutrition for wellness http//:www.energyforyourdreams.com 1-800-927-2527, ext. 03969 (voice mail) 585-746-8019 (cell)
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Re: Obit: Ernie Crane
Barbara Potter-Drinkwater
I sold Ernie Crane his last house. His comment
Who you are makes a difference, Love, Willow wild crafted nutrition for wellness http//:www.energyforyourdreams.com 1-800-927-2527, ext. 03969 (voice mail) 585-746-8019 (cell)
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Re: Speaking of innovative programming...
nickriv@...
No, the deal is, I believe, that the producers of All Of Us or whatever
it's called include Will Smith (Men In Black, etc). He ends up on a lot of talk shows and probably says to the viewing audience "Vote for my show." Anyway, the whole thing is non-scientific and fairly pointless, really. Nothing really matters until the Nielsens start coming in. I should add, the show is set in Los Angeles, so I would hope it wouldn't be considered a slam against rural people. I'm not sure which show that would have been. Thanks for your support, regardless. By the way, we premiere September 11. Yes, 9/11. Nice, huh? Gives you an idea about the decision makers at UPN. See you then! Reid On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 07:40 AM, <JWhitten@christhospital.org> wrote: I try to vote everyday, but the Mullets's percentage keeps getting
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