Topics

Hp 3000 30


Klyball
 

Now that I have my 1000 pretty much configured , I am starting to think about digging into my 3000 . Is it possible to use hp drive for disk is there a image that would work.  I think it might have some problems just off the get go. What is the best way to start tackling one of these trouble shooting etc.

Grant


Jack Rubin
 

If you haven't already done so, be sure to hook up with the HP3000-L listserv - https://raven.utc.edu/cgi-bin/WA.EXE?A0=HP3000-L

--
Jack
www.computerarium.org


Gavin Scott
 

I will throw in here that recently while hacking on MPE V/R for the Classic 3000 simulator, I discovered that MPE appears to have some (undocumented as far as I know) support for Amigo disks. Trying to get your Series 30 running with an HPIB MPE image off HP Drive might not be entirely impossible (though perhaps still very improbable).

In any case, you'll need an HP-IB version of MPE which is currently a bit harder to come by than the SIO version for the older pre-HP-IB machines, the reason being that there's an excellent software simulator/emulator for those older systems and there's an associated SIO MPE V/R version with virtual disk and tape images that's widely available. Probably finding someone with a running HP-IB system will be your best bet.

If you want to play with MPE on a virtual Series III, I can offer you my fully-configured HP 3000 Series III turn-key virtual system in these trying times:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu


Gavin Scott
 

Actually, maybe HP Drive would work perfectly well for a Series 30 if its 7970E and 7925 emulations are compatible? I don't know for sure so I'll shut up :)


 

Gavin,

HPdrive worked on the HP3000/52 I had.
As far as I know it is the only working 3000/52 in Europe. It's now in possession of Camiel.

-Rik


Klyball
 

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 01:41 PM, Gavin Scott wrote:
I will throw in here that recently while hacking on MPE V/R for the Classic 3000 simulator, I discovered that MPE appears to have some (undocumented as far as I know) support for Amigo disks. Trying to get your Series 30 running with an HPIB MPE image off HP Drive might not be entirely impossible (though perhaps still very improbable).

In any case, you'll need an HP-IB version of MPE which is currently a bit harder to come by than the SIO version for the older pre-HP-IB machines, the reason being that there's an excellent software simulator/emulator for those older systems and there's an associated SIO MPE V/R version with virtual disk and tape images that's widely available. Probably finding someone with a running HP-IB system will be your best bet.

If you want to play with MPE on a virtual Series III, I can offer you my fully-configured HP 3000 Series III turn-key virtual system in these trying times:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu
Thanks for that, Now i really want to get it running , but i believe it is sick , what would be the minimum cards required to get it to at least do the firmware/ cpu test. 

Cpu,buss, firmware . memory controller and 1 memory card . would it need the maintenance card installed.


Gavin Scott
 

Here's the Series 30 installation manual that might help courtesy of Al:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/3000/series30/30080-90001_S30_Inst_Jan80.pdf

I'm not really a hardware guy and it has been too many years since I didn't even need to know these details lol.

Ultimately you'll need a GIC to talk to a disk and/or tape drive so you can load something software-ish. Not sure the hardware will do too much on its own but again, decades of brain-rot here.

You probably want an HP-IB DUS (Diagnostic and Utility Subsystem) tape image to test it out. No idea if same is readily available online or not.

Best of luck with it.


Mike Loewen
 

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Gavin Scott via groups.io wrote:

I'm not really a hardware guy and it has been too many years since I didn't even need to know these details lol.

Ultimately you'll need a GIC to talk to a disk and/or tape drive so you can load something software-ish. Not sure the hardware will do too much on its own but again, decades of brain-rot here.

You probably want an HP-IB DUS (Diagnostic and Utility Subsystem) tape image to test it out. No idea if same is readily available online or not.
I have a MPE-V/R FOS tape image for the Series 30, as well as a DUS tape image. Grant, you can contact me directly for access.

Dave McGuire and I recently got the Series 39 up and running MPE-V at the Large Scale Systems Museum. We loaded the FOS tape from a PC running HPDrive, pretending to be a 7970E tape drive. I see no reason why that wouldn't work with the Series 30. On the other hand, the CMP (Control Maintenance Processor) on the Series 39 is a lot more sophisticated than the (MI) Maintenance Interface on the Series 30. From my reading of the CE manual, Maintenance Mode on the Series 30 has to be loaded from cartridge tape. Good luck finding one of those. The built-in self-tests on the Series 39 CMP helped in making sure everything was functioning. It took a lot of cleaning (boards, card edge connectors, cable connectors and backplane connectors) before everything was working.

On the Series 39, we had a functioning 7914 disc drive, as well as a 7978 9-track tape drive. I configured the 7978 as the primary tape drive (LDEV 7) and the 7970E on the HPDrive emulator as LDEV 5. I attached the 7978 and the emulated 7970E to the GIC on channel 9, and the 7914 to the GIC on channel 11. On the Series 30, the tape drive would be on channel 5 and the disc drive on channel 6.

I've never worked on a Series 30. :-)


Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


Klyball
 

Thanks Mike, i will contact you , I fear there is some board level problems , as the self test is not running. I m hoping that i could remove some cards to get to the minimum config that would run the self test. I think i might need to fab some card extenders to work on it.


On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:42 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Gavin Scott via groups.io wrote:

I'm not really a hardware guy and it has been too many years since I didn't
even need to know these details lol.

Ultimately you'll need a GIC to talk to a disk and/or tape drive so you can
load something software-ish. Not sure the hardware will do too much on its
own but again, decades of brain-rot here.

You probably want an HP-IB DUS (Diagnostic and Utility Subsystem) tape image to test it out. No idea if same is readily available online or not.
I have a MPE-V/R FOS tape image for the Series 30, as well as a DUS tape
image. Grant, you can contact me directly for access.

Dave McGuire and I recently got the Series 39 up and running MPE-V at the
Large Scale Systems Museum. We loaded the FOS tape from a PC running HPDrive,
pretending to be a 7970E tape drive. I see no reason why that wouldn't work
with the Series 30. On the other hand, the CMP (Control Maintenance Processor)
on the Series 39 is a lot more sophisticated than the (MI) Maintenance
Interface on the Series 30. From my reading of the CE manual, Maintenance Mode
on the Series 30 has to be loaded from cartridge tape. Good luck finding one
of those. The built-in self-tests on the Series 39 CMP helped in making sure
everything was functioning. It took a lot of cleaning (boards, card edge
connectors, cable connectors and backplane connectors) before everything was
working.

On the Series 39, we had a functioning 7914 disc drive, as well as a 7978
9-track tape drive. I configured the 7978 as the primary tape drive (LDEV 7)
and the 7970E on the HPDrive emulator as LDEV 5. I attached the 7978 and the
emulated 7970E to the GIC on channel 9, and the 7914 to the GIC on channel 11.
On the Series 30, the tape drive would be on channel 5 and the disc drive on
channel 6.

I've never worked on a Series 30. :-)


Mike Loewen mloewen@...
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


Stephen Hanselman
 

The series 30 and 33 both will load from a 7970E through a GIC.  As was mentioned it was a long time ago but I was a 3000 specialist in Southern Sales Region.  There was a version that came with a 7914 which had a cartridge tape in it.  This was the bottom system.  Another way to look at it was the 33 generally used a 7920 or 7925 disc drive and a 7970E tape drive and a 2608A printer. The only difference between the 33 and the 30 is the amount of memory and the number of I/O slots, the CPU set is the same.  

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them. 

Regards,

 

Stephen Hanselman

Datagate Systems, LLC




On Dec 21, 2020, at 18:26, Klyball <Grant@...> wrote:

Thanks Mike, i will contact you , I fear there is some board level problems , as the self test is not running. I m hoping that i could remove some cards to get to the minimum config that would run the self test. I think i might need to fab some card extenders to work on it.


On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:42 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Gavin Scott via groups.io wrote:

I'm not really a hardware guy and it has been too many years since I didn't
even need to know these details lol.

Ultimately you'll need a GIC to talk to a disk and/or tape drive so you can
load something software-ish. Not sure the hardware will do too much on its
own but again, decades of brain-rot here.

You probably want an HP-IB DUS (Diagnostic and Utility Subsystem) tape image to test it out. No idea if same is readily available online or not.
I have a MPE-V/R FOS tape image for the Series 30, as well as a DUS tape
image. Grant, you can contact me directly for access.

Dave McGuire and I recently got the Series 39 up and running MPE-V at the
Large Scale Systems Museum. We loaded the FOS tape from a PC running HPDrive,
pretending to be a 7970E tape drive. I see no reason why that wouldn't work
with the Series 30. On the other hand, the CMP (Control Maintenance Processor)
on the Series 39 is a lot more sophisticated than the (MI) Maintenance
Interface on the Series 30. From my reading of the CE manual, Maintenance Mode
on the Series 30 has to be loaded from cartridge tape. Good luck finding one
of those. The built-in self-tests on the Series 39 CMP helped in making sure
everything was functioning. It took a lot of cleaning (boards, card edge
connectors, cable connectors and backplane connectors) before everything was
working.

On the Series 39, we had a functioning 7914 disc drive, as well as a 7978
9-track tape drive. I configured the 7978 as the primary tape drive (LDEV 7)
and the 7970E on the HPDrive emulator as LDEV 5. I attached the 7978 and the
emulated 7970E to the GIC on channel 9, and the 7914 to the GIC on channel 11.
On the Series 30, the tape drive would be on channel 5 and the disc drive on
channel 6.

I've never worked on a Series 30. :-)


Mike Loewen mloewen@...
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


al_kossow
 

On 12/21/20 6:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.
Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.


al_kossow
 

On 12/21/20 7:11 PM, al_kossow wrote:
On 12/21/20 6:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.
Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.
and I'm the only person that I know of with 3000 schematics on line
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/3000/schems/


Dave McGuire
 

On 12/21/20 10:11 PM, al_kossow wrote:
I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.
Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.
Wow, neither did LSSM, I sure hope there's another copy of that stuff out there somewhere.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


Dave McGuire
 

On 12/21/20 9:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:
I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.
I'm sitting here wondering exactly what museums you talked to about this!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


Klyball
 

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 07:15 PM, al_kossow wrote:
and I'm the only person that I know of with 3000 schematics on line
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp3000/schems/ave 
Thanks for the link , i have seen these, not the best copies but is a great starting point.

I also have  2 tapes
MAINTENANCE DISPLAY SOFTWARE HP 3000 30070-10402 REV 1949 and
REMOTE MAINTENANCE CONSOLE FACILITY HP 3000 30070-10403 REV 1949

I would not want to put then in my tape drive's on my terminal , and they most likely need to be rebuilt . Is there anyone that has the experinance and equipment to repair and archive them if possible . as these are probably quit rare.

Grant


Gavin Scott
 

Those tapes were (IIRC) included with the Series 30/33 (at least) which used a dedicated modified 2645(?) terminal that provided a system CPU activity line on the display. They were usually found in a vinyl zippered pouch in the "gold book" system log binder. I don't recall ever using them.

Both those tapes can be recreated easily as the files comprising them were included with MPE (they're even in my Series III turnkey setup) and the CE manual included instructions for copying them onto a blank tape.

I suspect they will only actually load/run on an actual 30/33 console terminal but maybe I'll try turning the files into something I can try loading into a virtual (MAME) 2645 and see what happens. Maybe we should try to get a ROM dump off one of these terminals eventually.

From https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_hp3000cehaIBsysCEMay87_8773757/30070-90010_HPIBsysCE_May87_djvu.txt for example:

*** Maintenance Display Software Cartridge Tape ***
** 30070-10402 Rev 1910 **

Maintenance Display Software Version 0.01 **

TO GENERATE A MAINTENANCE DISPLAY TAPE ON THE RIGHT CARTRIDGE

TAPE, RUN FCOPY.PUB.SYS AND ENTER THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS:

FROM=MPHEAD;TO=$CTUR
FROM=MPLINKBS;TO=$CTUR;SKIPEOF=,2
EXIT
And here's the MPE V/R list of files in the same group, which looks like it may include DUS (Diagnostic and Utility Subsystem) tape images as well as other stuff too.

<pre>
:listf @.hp32231.support,2
ACCOUNT= SUPPORT GROUP= HP32231

FILENAME CODE ------------LOGICAL RECORD----------- ----SPACE----
SIZE TYP EOF LIMIT R/B SECTORS #X MX

CARTDUS 512W FB 976 1500 1 4512 6 8
CASET4 67W FB 83 150 5 60 5 8
CLSTHEAD 72B FA 1 1 3 2 1 1
COPYDUS PROG 128W FB 25 25 1 26 1 1
FLOPDUS 3840W FB 129 129 1 3900 8 8
GPCOMP 80B FA 39 39 16 20 1 1
GPLIST 72B FA 40 40 16 20 1 1
GPMAKDUS 72B FA 25 25 25 16 1 1
GPMAKMPE 80B FA 16 16 16 10 2 2
GPMAKNEW 72B FA 34 34 16 20 1 1
GPMEMAP 80B FA 63 63 16 25 5 5
GPMPE 80B FA 243 243 16 85 1 1
GPNOTES 88B FA 25 25 16 18 1 1
GPPRF2MU USL 128W FB 59 400 1 201 1 2
GPSPOOL 72B FA 36 36 32 27 1 1
GPUDC 80B FA 55 55 16 25 1 1
GPUSL USL 128W FB 128 1023 1 256 2 8
GPZAP 80B FA 92 92 16 35 1 1
MIDHEAD 72B FA 1 1 3 2 1 1
MIDLBINS 67W FB 55 100 5 45 5 7
MPHEAD 72B FA 2 2 3 2 1 1
MPLINKBS 67W FB 57 100 5 45 5 7
REMHEAD 72B FA 3 3 3 2 1 1
REMLINKB 67W FB 13 100 5 18 2 7
TAPEDUS 5000W VB 190 256 1 6600 5 8
</pre>


Stephen Hanselman
 

Sorry, we only looked at the ones we knew

Regards,

 

Stephen Hanselman

Datagate Systems, LLC




On Dec 21, 2020, at 19:11, al_kossow <aek@...> wrote:

On 12/21/20 6:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.


Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.






al_kossow
 

On 12/22/20 8:35 AM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:
we only looked at the ones we knew
So that NO ONE has this excuse in the future here is how
you start the donation process with us


https://computerhistory.org/acquisitions/


Dave McGuire
 

If you didn't know about CHM or LSSM, I'm curious to know which ones you DID know about!

I'm sorry, I don't mean to give you attitude. You very quickly earned my respect when you started popping up on these mailing lists, with your rather vast knowledge and experience. But trashing those schematics is a HUGE LOSS that really should not have happened.

-Dave

On 12/22/20 11:35 AM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:
Sorry, we only looked at the ones we knew
Regards,
Stephen Hanselman
Datagate Systems, LLC

On Dec 21, 2020, at 19:11, al_kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

On 12/21/20 6:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.
Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.




--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


Stephen Hanselman
 

Sorry, at this point I may have a lot of experience but I have stage 4 cancer and we had to vacate space on very short notice and since no customers use these computers they were off loaded. I had tried to sell some of our systems and received NO response so the assumption was no interest.  

As a matter of interest our systems including a 9500D-354 simulator and a MX based diagnostics server went to Computer Museum of America in Atlanta. Along with 3 pallets of manuals, 3 pallets of gold scrap, 5 file cabinets of good inventory, 1 double door cabinet of software in various formats and 2 pallets of NOS HP parts.  They sent someone to take charge and move the material. 

Regards,

 

Stephen Hanselman

Datagate Systems, LLC




On Dec 22, 2020, at 10:15, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:


 If you didn't know about CHM or LSSM, I'm curious to know which ones you DID know about!

 I'm sorry, I don't mean to give you attitude.  You very quickly earned my respect when you started popping up on these mailing lists, with your rather vast knowledge and experience.  But trashing those schematics is a HUGE LOSS that really should not have happened.

            -Dave

On 12/22/20 11:35 AM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:
Sorry, we only looked at the ones we knew
Regards,
Stephen Hanselman
Datagate Systems, LLC
On Dec 21, 2020, at 19:11, al_kossow <aek@...> wrote:

On 12/21/20 6:46 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

I wish you guys had piped up earlier as we just tossed my sets of schematics because none of the museums wanted them.


Who did you talk to at the Computer History Museum?
I never saw this offer.







--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA