HP 9826A - 5.25" boot images


Pawel
 

Hi,

I have pretty HP 9000/226 with working 5.25" floppy, and I'm searching for boot disks, for example BASIC, HPL, CP/M. On hpmuseum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6) there are many software images, however most of them are for 3.5" floppy and I cannot write in to 5.25" of course. Is there a method to convert 3.5" Teledisk (TD0) images to 5.25? Or is there a resource where I can find images (preferably TD0) with CP/M, BASIC and other stuff for 5..25 disk drive?

Cheers,
Pawel


 

Pawel,

If you have a gpib board preferably a NI488 board you can use hpdrive to emulate a hp-ib disk drive with a PC.
For more information look at https://hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/

-Rik

-Rik


Pawel
 

Thanks Rik, hpdrive is ultimate goal, I have on my eyes CEC PCI - 488 GPIB card, I hope it will work, however another PC is big (perhaps I can use something smaller like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sft5bT7os4E). Nevertheless it sounds like a quit big project and it's why I wanted to make something quick from embedded 5.25" floppy, like BASIC or Terminal (I'm waiting for rs232 card) therefore I'm searching for 5.25 boot floppy images.

Thanks again,
Pawel


Anders
 

You ned to make sure that the chipset is supported. HPDrive is an excellent solution. Another option is www.dalton.ax/HPDisk


 

The CEC board should work, I've used one in a Win98 system Before I got a fanless XP system. Most of the 200/300 series software is in TD0 or HPI image format.

-Rik


Anders
 

OK. Good to know. I have a NI board that i use for HPDrive.

I know that you know, but for the benefit of others:
HPI is a flat-file format that most emulators use
TD0 is an enoded format that captures the disk geometry. Such files need to be converted to flat files to be used with emuators. Instructions can be found here in this group.


Pawel
 

Regarding TD0, let's say I have boot disk ini TD0 for 3.5" drive (most of available are in 3.5" format indeed), is there a way to convert it to 5.25"? For example convertinig first into the flat file (HPI) and then to 5.25" TD0? 


Pawel
 

I think this video is more or less what I'm thinking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfLJZU4zgEU


Ansgar
 

There is a Python tool called Teledisk2hpi which in most cases can convert TD0 into HPI flat files (see https://groups.io/g/VintHPcom/files/Etc.)

You may also try using HPDir (https://hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/) or Fdio (https://hp9845.net/9845/projects/fdio/) to directly write LIF images in HPI format to 5.25" floppies without further conversion. Just take care the target floppy has the capacity to hold the full data, and for SD/DD floppies that both the floppy medium and the drive are native SD/DD (HD drives can read SD/DD floppies, but cannot reliably write them, especially if there is old data on the floppy, and HD floppies do not have the same magnetic characteristics as SD/DD so may fail during read and/or write). 5.25" floppies as found in PCs are normally HD drives, but you can connect a SD/DD drive to any standard floppy controller.

-Ansgar


Pawel
 

Thank you, it sounds really good. Using Teledisk2hpi I prepared some .hpi LIF files, on Monday I will try to write them to disks. The only problem I see is that fdio works on Windows and doesn't work on bare DOS. Unfortunately, I have 360k floppy drive only in IBM XT (5160). However, I found LIFUTIL (https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/lib/software-detail/computer-software/lifutil--reading-keysight-lif-disks-on-msdos-1000000786epsgsud.html) which should work on MS DOS. We'll see. I used this IBM and teledisk/imagedisk/22disk for preparing floppies for non-PC computers like Osborne 1, so I'm of good cheer. :)


Pawel
 

A small victory!

I wasn't able to write image to 5.25 floppy from .hpi, however I was able prepare bootable floppies with small games (Othello, StarTrek).

First, I downloaded  Keysight LIFUTIL for my IBM XT. Using this tool I initialized new LFI floppy. Next step was preparing bootable .SYSTM ready to write using lifutil. First with Teledisk2hpi I converted TD0 to HPI, and then with hpdir I extrated interesting files (like SYSTEM_O, SYSTEM_S from image games for 200 series). The trick was to extract them with -hpbasic switch in order to extract some metadata. Next, in LIFUTIL with DOS to LIF Copy I put .SYSTM files to LIF floppy (importans was to use DFS to LIF file format conversion, and it worked only with files exracted with -hpbasic switch). 

Unfortunaely it didn't work with BASIC 5 and even BASIC 2 images - Not enough memory. :( Doesn't it mean I should buy/make RAM card? CP/M also didn't work. 

Im summary, I'm very happy because something works.

Tomorrow I should pickup GPIB card.

Best regards and thanks for support and ideas,
Pawel


Ansgar
 

Well, using a 5160 of course limits the resources, but is a quite cool move :-)

Guess it is not that easy to give more memory than 640K to the LIFUTILs on the XT. Depends whether LIFUTILs can actively use that memory (e.g. EMS, Above Board etc.). But I could not yet find a hint on this. The XT does not provide program access above 640K or flat memory models beyond 1MB (available only with protected mode).

A workaround still might be to temporarily transfer the 360k drive from the XT to a Windows PC.

-Ansgar


Pawel
 

I think I was not very clear. The problem with memory is on HP 9826A - I have only 128K. Basic 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.1 and HPL don't start - I see ,,Not enough memory'' message or something like ,,The system was too high''. I will try emulating those images with HPDrive, however I suspect it won't change anything, because I have only 128k RAM. Or perhaps some versions od Basic should run with 128k RAM and the problem is with prepared floppies?

Nevertheless, when to find RAM extension? 


Martin Hepperle
 

Pavel,

I do not fully understand why you don't simply use Teledisk 2.16 to write the *.TD0 image files back to disks?
If you are using an old PC, you should also be able to run Teledisk.
This would spare you the way from TD0 through LIF and LIFUTILS to disk.

Martin


Pawel
 

Martin, the problem is that all TD0 images that I'm interested in (Basic, CP/M, Terminal etc) are for 3.5" floppy, and I have only built-in 5.25". Teledisk fails of course writing images from 3.5" to 5.25" - incorrect geometry.


Martin Hepperle
 

ah, I see, sorry for my ignorance...

I think some of the disk images may have special unusual sector sizes embedded (CP/M comes to mind) so in some cases you may not be able to convert these to 5-1/4".

128 KB RAM might be enough for BASIC 2.1 and similar, but I may have some extra 256 KB memory boards for DIO bus.
Can you check whether your system can accept such a board?
Where in the world are you located? 

Martin


Anders
 

Yes, some CP/M disks have track 0 with 128 byte sectors and some 98x6 disks have an extra runt sector that need to be dropped when converting to flat files.


Pawel
 

Martin so the question is why BASIC 2.0 and other, acquired from http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 don't work for me. Perhaps with HPDrive I will get more luck.

My HP 9826A has 8 DIOs (https://bukosek.si/hardware/collection/hp-9826a.html) and I'm from Poland. 

The topic about CP/M is very interesting, it would be great to run it from the 5.25 floppy, however currently I failed.


Ansgar
 

Sorry for my misinterpretation, I guess I now do understand the problem better.

You can't simply copy SYSTEM files from one disk to another, there is some meta data included in the directory which is used by the loader (probably for the jump address) which gets lost by simply copying the SYSTEM files. So you might need to recreate the meta data manually. You can either do this with a disk sector editor, or with a hex editor with an image, or with HPDir.

Example for the latter:

hpdir -attrib -aux 8001fffc2512 boot51.hpi SYS_BAS51

-Ansgar


Ansgar
 
Edited

By the way the probably easiest way to copy LIF disks even over different floppy formats is to just dd from/to /dev/fdx within Unix/Linux (e.g. dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/dev/fd1). But it won't work with a 5160, you need to attach the SD/DD drive to the Unix/Linux PC :-)

-Ansgar