Date   
Re: Light pen update: success!

Ansgar
 

Thanks! You are exaclty right, if we add time to the formula, we have energy, whereas what the photodiode measures is - physically - power. Just a peak without relation to time (which makes it different to the human eye). The funny side is that in the end, the electron beam is moving across the light pen's field of view, which then - in combination with the afterglow of the phosphors - causes different effects, especially of vertical lines vs. horizontal lines. And time again comes into play. But this is another story :-)

If you do a direct comparison with "low tech" home computers or consoles of the time, HP's solution looks quite engineered (I am intentionally not using the term over-engineered..). But I guess the high accuracy of the display, including its high resolution with its (for the time) outstanding bandwidth of 30 MHz with color was something very special.

Woz would have done it differently, I am sure.

-Ansgar

Re: Light pen update: success!

Kuba Ober
 


The energy of the red P22 used for the 9845C is approx. reverse the proportion of the decay time vs. green and blue, i.e. 1% of the energy of the green and blue phosphor, so that the total energy (with longer decay time) received by the human eye is roughly the same. For the light pen detection circuit, just the peak energy measured on a pixel is of relevance. Which means the signal of a red pixel is roughly 1/100 of that of a green or blue pixel. Which again makes it difficult to use red as a color for proper pixel detection on the original 9845C by the way.
It must be stressed, though, that just one order of magnitude change in exposure duration isn’t enough for any sort of a reciprocity failure in the cones of a human eye, and the total energy balance between the colors is driven only according to the requirements of white balance, i.e. the differences in output energy are small (say within a factor of 2-3 between any two phosphors).

I think that the use the word “peak energy” is somewhat confusing, because it’s not really peak energy you talk about, but peak rate of delivery of energy, commonly called peak power. And peak power is what the light pen is sensitive to, as you correctly state. It has a bandwidth high enough to allow it not to act as an integrator at those time scales — and that is of course a key requirement.

I’m still somewhat amazed at how clever the HP design was. As a kid, I had an ABC-80 computer (by Luxor, a Swedish brand) with a light pen that had a bare off-the-shelf photodiode at the end, with no lens — just the flat epoxy window of the package. The photodiode straddled the end of a long copper clad strip of FR-4 PC-board, with the aluminum Koh-I-Nor mechanical pencil enclosure acting as a sleek case. The PCB was a pusher for the microswitch at the other end of the pen. It had very short stroke (~3mm). The microswitch was attached with a thick heat-shrink tube, and I’m unsure whether it was a purchased product or made by my father or his coworkers.

In spite of that simplicity, it did some of the things that the HP pen did — it had a cursor tracking mode, although I’m not sure whether it had background interlacing. It did use the half-intensity mode for the background of on-screen buttons of course. The graphical resolution of that machine was rather low — it used 2x3 pattern symbols in text mode as a stand-in for graphics. The resolution was 80x75 in 40ch/line mode. The 80ch/line was an add-on board :).

The pen timing had higher resolution than that of course, but vertically it didn’t do any interpolation and thus it was inherently limited to a scanline as a smallest unit of Y position. IIRC the horizontal resolution was scaled to match the graphical resolution, and perhaps was +/- 80 centered on 128, although I might be wrong on that. It had single-byte X and Y coordinate readout registers.

Personally I think that the light pens can be somewhat unergonomic unless the monitor is embedded in the desk, with the screen surface close to wrist level at rest. It’s not as bad as writing on the blackboard for a whole day, of course, but that’s a poor consolation IMHO.

Cheers, Kuba Ober

Re: Light pen update: success!

Ansgar
 

Hi François,

that's pretty cool, congratulations from my side.

For the 9845C here are some specs:

The 9845C originally uses P22 phosphors, with decay times 8.7 µs for green + blue, and 870 µs for read. Common for P22 today is 35 µs for green + blue, and 850 µs for red. That is what you might need to take into account when using a different RGB monitor. The time between two scanlines is 34.4 µs, so the decay time of modern P22 still should be within the expected range, but the measured signal for green + blue will look different (peaks not as sharp as with the original 9845C CRT). The required minimum intensity for single pixel detection is specified to 10 foot lamberts for the original CRT (assumed green and/or blue are present).

The energy of the red P22 used for the 9845C is approx. reverse the proportion of the decay time vs. green and blue, i.e. 1% of the energy of the green and blue phosphor, so that the total energy (with longer decay time) received by the human eye is roughly the same. For the light pen detection circuit, just the peak energy measured on a pixel is of relevance. Which means the signal of a red pixel is roughly 1/100 of that of a green or blue pixel. Which again makes it difficult to use red as a color for proper pixel detection on the original 9845C by the way.

-Ansgar

Light pen update: success!

François Lanciault
 

Hi group,

Today, I was able to digitize points using my breadboard light pen. Shielding the circuit did the job. The background noise level is down to .5 volts peak to peak and never gets higher. The real light pen has a noise level of .2 volts so there is still work to do.

Picking and moving the light pen cursor is still sketchy. But I believe it has more to do with the lenses system that is not yet perfect.

I have started to create a PCB with the right dimensions to fit the light pen.

What is left to be done:

Tune the light pen circuit (R9 resistor) until the output is is as close as possible to the real thing.

Re-check the calibration with a RED and BLUE CRT image. My 9845 is not the color version, so I will use another monitor driven by another computer. The idea is to have the same signal on the scope for both light pen for all three basic color. Just need to supply a -12V source. If the light pens behave the same with another color screen, we might expect the BB version will work on a 9845C. It is possible I might need to try different PIN photodiode before everything is ok.

Choose and test a better set of lenses. The one I have right now kind of work. But from this first experience I know I can do better. A large bunch of lenses are already on order. Should get them this week.

Finish the design of the PCB and have a few made in order to try the final version of the electronic circuit.

Design and 3D print the pen casing (that is the easy part) The casing needs to have integrated shielding.

Replace the cable that connect to the back of the screen with a shielded twisted quadruplet.

Once finished, I will share the PCB files, list of components, and the 3D printer files on the mailing list files area.

I will also offer the 3D printer casing to anyone who ask for a fee of (lets see: cost of plastic, printer wear, my time...) 0.00$. :-)


Have a nice day.

François

Re: HP 9830A repair, restoration and exploration

Jack Rubin
 

Venospsis,

Welcome - hopefully you'll be able to get your machine running again. Be sure to check Tony Duell's 98x0 repair guide at the HP Museum site (www.hpmuseum.net), as well as the HP factory workshop manuals.

Probably the first thing you should do is to carefully strip down your machine while taking lots of pictures. Check for any other water damage and clean things up. Work on a grounded work surface and use a static dissipation strap to minimize the chance of damage due to static electricity. Ask questions as you go!

Where do you live? 

Best,
Jack

Re: HP 9830A repair, restoration and exploration

@venopsis
 

Hello,

I'm new to this website too and recently get a HP 9830A.

Thank you Mattis for the links. I think it will be certainly useful!

The screen of my HP 9830A flashs when start and after that nothing else is happening.

Some water flown inside the device near the tape reader and it seems to be very damaged for the reader head part and right motor is completely stuck.

As it's my first restoration I hope it will be not too hard.

Have a nice day!

BR,
Venospsis.

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Guy Dunphy
 

At 08:02 PM 18/08/2018 -0500, you wrote:
Guy

I have a working 9830A.
Do you have the self test diagnostics tape?
Hopefully. As I listed:
Other items
* Small cardboard box containing 10 cassette tapes:
- Three HP software cassettes
- 09830-90035 Systems test cassette (includes 9869A test)
[snip]

Assuming it's recoverable, I will do my best to get it into some reproducible, distributable file form.

Are you going to part the second 9830?
No, sorry. The intention is to get them both working.
They are not actually mine, so I can't part out even if it's unrepairable (unlikely.)
They belong to the Australian Computer Museum Society. I'm just custodian for an unknown
period of time. Hopefully indefinitely, but I can't dispose of them. Ditto the manuals I have.


I have two working 9866s and another one for parts.

I would like to have an original 9830 operating and programming manual in
good condition - just for old times sake.

Lee

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Guy Dunphy" <@TerraHertz>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:52 PM
To: <VintHPcom@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Hi Lee & Rik,

I'll chime in here. I'm starting a HP 9830A restoration project too. See
here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1112-vintage-computer-warehouse-diving/?all

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/hp-9830a-desktop-programmable-calculator-an-exploration/

What I have:
Two HP 9830A desktop programmable calculators. One working, one not.

* Unit 1. SN 1303A01320 Just the main unit. Nothing else. Very dirty as
received.
* Unit 2. SN 1303A02375 Very clean & complete set. Has dust cover, printer
& cable, manuals, rolls of paper.
* 9866A printer. SN 1234A02133 Came with Unit 2 above.

Also have:
- A couple of cassette tape units. Both with cables cut off.
- One of the cassette tape interface modules. Of course also with cable
cut off.
- Cardboard box with:
- A dust cover, for 9830A without printer.
- User manuals. (see list in 9830A\Documentation\paper )
- Box of cassette tapes. (see list)
- Pad of 9830A programming forms.
- 4 boxes, each with 2 new rolls of printer paper.


Unit 1 (does not run)
Option packs in side bay:
* DATA COMM. 3 Interactive 11298B Blue
* DATA COMM. 1 Interface control 11296B Blue
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown Have manual
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Red Have manual
* PLOTTER CONTROL 11271B Red

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II
* 11270-66520 (2 rows) Matrix operations (plug-in ROM)


Unit 2 (runs)
Option packs in side bay
* ADVANCED PROG I 11279B red
* MATRIX OPERATIONS 11270B pink
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Orange

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II

I'm currently still doing small physical repairs - broken post on plastic
keyboard bezel, and so on.
But overall I have the same information needs as you Lee.



At 05:58 PM 18/08/2018 -0500, you wrote:
Rik

Sorry, I don't have a list.

I attempted to down load everything there - with mixed results.
I've yet to go and try that site. I expect I'll have the same luck as you.
Fragmented remnants.


Clicking on the links in the text sometimes resulted in file not found
errors.
IIRC the project resource files were mostly missing.
I was specifically looking for:
schematics - got them
The original HP schematics, for all the boards! Not just the tape drive
and PS?
I hope so. That would save me a great deal of work reverse-eng the
schematics from the boards.

9830 and 9866 ROM code - no luck
I plan to extract the ROM code from the working machine, and also all the
option ROM cards and modules.
Not going to desolder the chips, so extraction requires the schematics and
making 'card reader' jigs.

source and binary code for his projects - no luck there either
As I recall, some of the photos were gone too.

I am still looking for :
9830/66 ROM code
HP part number to JEDEC part number cross reference
I have some. Try:
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/HP_Agilent/HP_Cross-Reference.pdf huge.
Had the 1818-3319 eprom from my HP 54121T scope.

http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/HP-Bench-Briefs-1990-07-12.pdf
http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/


HP's theory of operation write ups:
these were done by the design engineers themselves
they did have them for the overall system and for each board
they were for internal use only - I don't believe they were ever
released
Oh please, please let these be still in existence somewhere!

I REALLY REALLY REGRET TOSSING ALL THIS YEARS AGO!
Ha, I know that feeling. My past few instances of tossing something I
later greatly regretted,
left me with severe techno-hoarding syndrome. I don't consider this a
problem. :)

Anyone out there have:
cherry key switch
9830 unbroken keyboard bezel
Make that two. One of mine has an unsightly chunk missing. I could make a
match and glue it in,
but know I'd never be able to get the color and texture or join seam
exactly right.

9866B HP emblem - the glue in bar type
rear case bumpers - even broken ones that I can use as a model
One of my units still has them. I do plan to 3D print replicas for the
other unit, but that's
a long way off. 3D-printer project bogged down in sidetracks, like NTLite
generation of clean Win7.

display chip
memory extension board
I'm anticipating having to make extension boards. PCBs from China, etc.

diagnostics tape
I have one! But whether it still reads or not, don't yet know.
Also don't yet know the status of the tape drives in my units. So
certainly not going to just try
it, until I'm confident the drive won't chew the precious test tape.
Next problem would be to duplicate it, and/or rip the binary in a
distributable & loadable form.
Apparently HP original tapes are 'protected', ie 9830A users can't see the
contents. That needs cracking,
if not done already.
For this I need the system hardware theory of op (or reverse eng it
myself) and I'm thinking a way to
halt the machine and externally dump the system RAM contents.

Other things I want:
Interface modules for the HP 9830A.
Top of my list, a HP-IB interface module. (And manual.)
But I don't even have a list of what modules existed.

Regards,
Guy

-----ALSO-----

List of paper documents I have, relevant to the HP 9830A calculator

Books
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Operating and Programming PN
09830-90001 Mar 6 1976 (qty 2)

* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 11272B extended I/O ROM operating
manual PN 09830-90029 Feb 4 1976
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - String variables ROM operating manual
for 11274B & option 274
PN 09830-90002 Sept 1973
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Advanced programming 1 ROM operating
manual
for 11279B & option 279
PN 09830-90006 May 1973

* Hewlett-Packard calculator - 9830A Math pac (purple) PN
09830-70000 9721M
With two plastic key overlay sheets. Purple. PN 7120-3511, 7120-3514
(last one is bent near bottom)

* Hewlett-Packard 9865A cassette memory peripheral manual PN
09865-90000 May 1873


Books of tear-out forms
* Hewlett-Packard tape cassette - 9865A file information form PN
09865-90001 no date. Intact.
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 9830A program forms PN
09830-90016 no date. Intact.

Booklets & cards
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - System test instructions. PN
09830-90032 Feb 1973
* Quick reference to H-P Models 30 BASIC PN
09830-90012 no date (Qty 2)

Leaflets, etc
* 11272B/F Extended I/O ROM Tech data Jul 1974 PN 5952-8925 (09) 2 pages
* 11289B Advanced programming II ROM Tech data Mar 1975 PN 5952-8959 (09)
2 pages
* "Tape operating systems make data storage easy" no date, no PN.
Silverfish damaged. 4 pages.
* Changes. "only one manual set - paper shortage." Jan 1974 1 page.
* Errata 9830A Math pac. Aug 23 1973. 1 page
* Business reply envelope, HP, unused. PN 9230-0051
* Cassette tape storage cards for ring binder. PN 9230-0065 Qty 2

Magazines
* HP KEYBOARD Vol. 5 NO. 4

Photocopies
* Chapter 2 onwards, of the Matrices manual(?)
* HP 9866A Printer - peripheral manual. (c)1972


Other items
* Small cardboard box containing 10 cassette tapes:
- Three HP software cassettes
- 09830-90035 Systems test cassette (includes 9869A test)
- 09839-70000 Math pac vol.1. General
- 09830-90014 Training cassette - simplified

- 2 cassettes in sealed plastic bags (never opened)
- HP 9162-0050 digital cassette
- one cassette in plain white case.

- 3 cassettes in white cases, in opened plastic bags.
- 2 cassettes in clear cases, both with user labels.

* Pack of fuses.
* 4 keyboard function key overlays.
- Special functions (new in bag)
- Math (new in bag)
- Basic (new in bag)
- Math (used, dirty & corroded. Was on Unit 1.)
* Two Allen keys for opening side ROM packs lid. In unopened plastic bag.
* 'Select code' sticker sheet. 1-9 in unopened plastic bag.
* Unopened plastic bag with 5 plastic 'cable clips' (?)






----------previously--------

From: Rik Bos
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:04 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?


Lee,



Do you have a list of which files are missing?

I made a copy of most of the files on Brent�?Ts site when it was active.

So there is a reasonable chance I have them.



-Rik



Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Lee A. White
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 9:05
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack
Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource
sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files
for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great
if they could be made available some where again.



Lee



From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

To: VintHPcom@groups.io

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal
and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi.
I�?Tve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group
but haven�?Tt heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack
Machine.



Jack



From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of
m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Thanks for the clarification. I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault
in the display. Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and
replaced it with a 74LS part. I think I'll try decoding the printer
output and just display it to a monitor. Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes
all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces. I can tell the
previous owner glued it, and it broke again. Its an ugly spot on an
otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman




Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Jack Rubin
 

I have the full 9830 portion of Brent's website; I've written to him a couple of times in the last week for permission to share it with the group but I haven't gotten a reply (yet). Going on the principle that it is better to ask forgiveness, I'll post the material tomorrow (on the road right now).

I'm also restoring a 9830 as well, so we should have a fine old time together! I've only just gotten it home and started a physical inventory. Present operating condition is that fan works and power indicator light is lit. That's all.

Cool features include 16K Infotek memory and Infotek floppy drive (no cable - help!!).

Jack  

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Lee A. White
 

Guy

I have a working 9830A.
Do you have the self test diagnostics tape?
Are you going to part the second 9830?

I have two working 9866s and another one for parts.

I would like to have an original 9830 operating and programming manual in good condition - just for old times sake.

Lee

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Guy Dunphy" <@TerraHertz>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:52 PM
To: <VintHPcom@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Hi Lee & Rik,

I'll chime in here. I'm starting a HP 9830A restoration project too. See here:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1112-vintage-computer-warehouse-diving/?all
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/hp-9830a-desktop-programmable-calculator-an-exploration/

What I have:
Two HP 9830A desktop programmable calculators. One working, one not.

* Unit 1. SN 1303A01320 Just the main unit. Nothing else. Very dirty as received.
* Unit 2. SN 1303A02375 Very clean & complete set. Has dust cover, printer & cable, manuals, rolls of paper.
* 9866A printer. SN 1234A02133 Came with Unit 2 above.

Also have:
- A couple of cassette tape units. Both with cables cut off.
- One of the cassette tape interface modules. Of course also with cable cut off.
- Cardboard box with:
- A dust cover, for 9830A without printer.
- User manuals. (see list in 9830A\Documentation\paper )
- Box of cassette tapes. (see list)
- Pad of 9830A programming forms.
- 4 boxes, each with 2 new rolls of printer paper.


Unit 1 (does not run)
Option packs in side bay:
* DATA COMM. 3 Interactive 11298B Blue
* DATA COMM. 1 Interface control 11296B Blue
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown Have manual
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Red Have manual
* PLOTTER CONTROL 11271B Red

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II
* 11270-66520 (2 rows) Matrix operations (plug-in ROM)


Unit 2 (runs)
Option packs in side bay
* ADVANCED PROG I 11279B red
* MATRIX OPERATIONS 11270B pink
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Orange

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II

I'm currently still doing small physical repairs - broken post on plastic keyboard bezel, and so on.
But overall I have the same information needs as you Lee.



At 05:58 PM 18/08/2018 -0500, you wrote:
Rik

Sorry, I don't have a list.

I attempted to down load everything there - with mixed results.
I've yet to go and try that site. I expect I'll have the same luck as you. Fragmented remnants.


Clicking on the links in the text sometimes resulted in file not found errors.
IIRC the project resource files were mostly missing.
I was specifically looking for:
schematics - got them
The original HP schematics, for all the boards! Not just the tape drive and PS?
I hope so. That would save me a great deal of work reverse-eng the schematics from the boards.

9830 and 9866 ROM code - no luck
I plan to extract the ROM code from the working machine, and also all the option ROM cards and modules.
Not going to desolder the chips, so extraction requires the schematics and making 'card reader' jigs.

source and binary code for his projects - no luck there either
As I recall, some of the photos were gone too.

I am still looking for :
9830/66 ROM code
HP part number to JEDEC part number cross reference
I have some. Try:
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/HP_Agilent/HP_Cross-Reference.pdf huge. Had the 1818-3319 eprom from my HP 54121T scope.
http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/HP-Bench-Briefs-1990-07-12.pdf
http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/


HP's theory of operation write ups:
these were done by the design engineers themselves
they did have them for the overall system and for each board
they were for internal use only - I don't believe they were ever released
Oh please, please let these be still in existence somewhere!

I REALLY REALLY REGRET TOSSING ALL THIS YEARS AGO!
Ha, I know that feeling. My past few instances of tossing something I later greatly regretted,
left me with severe techno-hoarding syndrome. I don't consider this a problem. :)

Anyone out there have:
cherry key switch
9830 unbroken keyboard bezel
Make that two. One of mine has an unsightly chunk missing. I could make a match and glue it in,
but know I'd never be able to get the color and texture or join seam exactly right.

9866B HP emblem - the glue in bar type
rear case bumpers - even broken ones that I can use as a model
One of my units still has them. I do plan to 3D print replicas for the other unit, but that's
a long way off. 3D-printer project bogged down in sidetracks, like NTLite generation of clean Win7.

display chip
memory extension board
I'm anticipating having to make extension boards. PCBs from China, etc.

diagnostics tape
I have one! But whether it still reads or not, don't yet know.
Also don't yet know the status of the tape drives in my units. So certainly not going to just try
it, until I'm confident the drive won't chew the precious test tape.
Next problem would be to duplicate it, and/or rip the binary in a distributable & loadable form.
Apparently HP original tapes are 'protected', ie 9830A users can't see the contents. That needs cracking,
if not done already.
For this I need the system hardware theory of op (or reverse eng it myself) and I'm thinking a way to
halt the machine and externally dump the system RAM contents.

Other things I want:
Interface modules for the HP 9830A.
Top of my list, a HP-IB interface module. (And manual.)
But I don't even have a list of what modules existed.

Regards,
Guy

-----ALSO-----

List of paper documents I have, relevant to the HP 9830A calculator

Books
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Operating and Programming PN 09830-90001 Mar 6 1976 (qty 2)

* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 11272B extended I/O ROM operating manual PN 09830-90029 Feb 4 1976
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - String variables ROM operating manual
for 11274B & option 274 PN 09830-90002 Sept 1973
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Advanced programming 1 ROM operating manual
for 11279B & option 279 PN 09830-90006 May 1973

* Hewlett-Packard calculator - 9830A Math pac (purple) PN 09830-70000 9721M
With two plastic key overlay sheets. Purple. PN 7120-3511, 7120-3514 (last one is bent near bottom)

* Hewlett-Packard 9865A cassette memory peripheral manual PN 09865-90000 May 1873


Books of tear-out forms
* Hewlett-Packard tape cassette - 9865A file information form PN 09865-90001 no date. Intact.
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 9830A program forms PN 09830-90016 no date. Intact.

Booklets & cards
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - System test instructions. PN 09830-90032 Feb 1973
* Quick reference to H-P Models 30 BASIC PN 09830-90012 no date (Qty 2)

Leaflets, etc
* 11272B/F Extended I/O ROM Tech data Jul 1974 PN 5952-8925 (09) 2 pages
* 11289B Advanced programming II ROM Tech data Mar 1975 PN 5952-8959 (09) 2 pages
* "Tape operating systems make data storage easy" no date, no PN. Silverfish damaged. 4 pages.
* Changes. "only one manual set - paper shortage." Jan 1974 1 page.
* Errata 9830A Math pac. Aug 23 1973. 1 page
* Business reply envelope, HP, unused. PN 9230-0051
* Cassette tape storage cards for ring binder. PN 9230-0065 Qty 2

Magazines
* HP KEYBOARD Vol. 5 NO. 4

Photocopies
* Chapter 2 onwards, of the Matrices manual(?)
* HP 9866A Printer - peripheral manual. (c)1972


Other items
* Small cardboard box containing 10 cassette tapes:
- Three HP software cassettes
- 09830-90035 Systems test cassette (includes 9869A test)
- 09839-70000 Math pac vol.1. General
- 09830-90014 Training cassette - simplified

- 2 cassettes in sealed plastic bags (never opened)
- HP 9162-0050 digital cassette
- one cassette in plain white case.

- 3 cassettes in white cases, in opened plastic bags.
- 2 cassettes in clear cases, both with user labels.

* Pack of fuses.
* 4 keyboard function key overlays.
- Special functions (new in bag)
- Math (new in bag)
- Basic (new in bag)
- Math (used, dirty & corroded. Was on Unit 1.)
* Two Allen keys for opening side ROM packs lid. In unopened plastic bag.
* 'Select code' sticker sheet. 1-9 in unopened plastic bag.
* Unopened plastic bag with 5 plastic 'cable clips' (?)






----------previously--------

From: Rik Bos
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:04 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?


Lee,



Do you have a list of which files are missing?

I made a copy of most of the files on Brent�?Ts site when it was active.

So there is a reasonable chance I have them.



-Rik



Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Lee A. White
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 9:05
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.



Lee



From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

To: VintHPcom@groups.io

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I�?Tve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven�?Tt heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.



Jack



From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Thanks for the clarification. I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display. Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part. I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor. Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces. I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again. Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Guy Dunphy
 

Hi Lee & Rik,

I'll chime in here. I'm starting a HP 9830A restoration project too. See here:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1112-vintage-computer-warehouse-diving/?all
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/hp-9830a-desktop-programmable-calculator-an-exploration/

What I have:
Two HP 9830A desktop programmable calculators. One working, one not.

* Unit 1. SN 1303A01320 Just the main unit. Nothing else. Very dirty as received.
* Unit 2. SN 1303A02375 Very clean & complete set. Has dust cover, printer & cable, manuals, rolls of paper.
* 9866A printer. SN 1234A02133 Came with Unit 2 above.

Also have:
- A couple of cassette tape units. Both with cables cut off.
- One of the cassette tape interface modules. Of course also with cable cut off.
- Cardboard box with:
- A dust cover, for 9830A without printer.
- User manuals. (see list in 9830A\Documentation\paper )
- Box of cassette tapes. (see list)
- Pad of 9830A programming forms.
- 4 boxes, each with 2 new rolls of printer paper.


Unit 1 (does not run)
Option packs in side bay:
* DATA COMM. 3 Interactive 11298B Blue
* DATA COMM. 1 Interface control 11296B Blue
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown Have manual
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Red Have manual
* PLOTTER CONTROL 11271B Red

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II
* 11270-66520 (2 rows) Matrix operations (plug-in ROM)


Unit 2 (runs)
Option packs in side bay
* ADVANCED PROG I 11279B red
* MATRIX OPERATIONS 11270B pink
* EXTENDED I/O 11272B Brown
* STRING VARIABLES 11274B Orange

Internal ROM cards
* 09830-66526 (1 row) ROM BASIC II

I'm currently still doing small physical repairs - broken post on plastic keyboard bezel, and so on.
But overall I have the same information needs as you Lee.



At 05:58 PM 18/08/2018 -0500, you wrote:
Rik

Sorry, I don't have a list.

I attempted to down load everything there - with mixed results.
I've yet to go and try that site. I expect I'll have the same luck as you. Fragmented remnants.


Clicking on the links in the text sometimes resulted in file not found errors.
IIRC the project resource files were mostly missing.
I was specifically looking for:
schematics - got them
The original HP schematics, for all the boards! Not just the tape drive and PS?
I hope so. That would save me a great deal of work reverse-eng the schematics from the boards.

9830 and 9866 ROM code - no luck
I plan to extract the ROM code from the working machine, and also all the option ROM cards and modules.
Not going to desolder the chips, so extraction requires the schematics and making 'card reader' jigs.

source and binary code for his projects - no luck there either
As I recall, some of the photos were gone too.

I am still looking for :
9830/66 ROM code
HP part number to JEDEC part number cross reference
I have some. Try:
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/HP_Agilent/HP_Cross-Reference.pdf huge. Had the 1818-3319 eprom from my HP 54121T scope.
http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/HP-Bench-Briefs-1990-07-12.pdf
http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/HP/Publikacje/


HP's theory of operation write ups:
these were done by the design engineers themselves
they did have them for the overall system and for each board
they were for internal use only - I don't believe they were ever released
Oh please, please let these be still in existence somewhere!

I REALLY REALLY REGRET TOSSING ALL THIS YEARS AGO!
Ha, I know that feeling. My past few instances of tossing something I later greatly regretted,
left me with severe techno-hoarding syndrome. I don't consider this a problem. :)

Anyone out there have:
cherry key switch
9830 unbroken keyboard bezel
Make that two. One of mine has an unsightly chunk missing. I could make a match and glue it in,
but know I'd never be able to get the color and texture or join seam exactly right.

9866B HP emblem - the glue in bar type
rear case bumpers - even broken ones that I can use as a model
One of my units still has them. I do plan to 3D print replicas for the other unit, but that's
a long way off. 3D-printer project bogged down in sidetracks, like NTLite generation of clean Win7.

display chip
memory extension board
I'm anticipating having to make extension boards. PCBs from China, etc.

diagnostics tape
I have one! But whether it still reads or not, don't yet know.
Also don't yet know the status of the tape drives in my units. So certainly not going to just try
it, until I'm confident the drive won't chew the precious test tape.
Next problem would be to duplicate it, and/or rip the binary in a distributable & loadable form.
Apparently HP original tapes are 'protected', ie 9830A users can't see the contents. That needs cracking,
if not done already.
For this I need the system hardware theory of op (or reverse eng it myself) and I'm thinking a way to
halt the machine and externally dump the system RAM contents.

Other things I want:
Interface modules for the HP 9830A.
Top of my list, a HP-IB interface module. (And manual.)
But I don't even have a list of what modules existed.

Regards,
Guy

-----ALSO-----

List of paper documents I have, relevant to the HP 9830A calculator

Books
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Operating and Programming PN 09830-90001 Mar 6 1976 (qty 2)

* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 11272B extended I/O ROM operating manual PN 09830-90029 Feb 4 1976
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - String variables ROM operating manual
for 11274B & option 274 PN 09830-90002 Sept 1973
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - Advanced programming 1 ROM operating manual
for 11279B & option 279 PN 09830-90006 May 1973

* Hewlett-Packard calculator - 9830A Math pac (purple) PN 09830-70000 9721M
With two plastic key overlay sheets. Purple. PN 7120-3511, 7120-3514 (last one is bent near bottom)

* Hewlett-Packard 9865A cassette memory peripheral manual PN 09865-90000 May 1873


Books of tear-out forms
* Hewlett-Packard tape cassette - 9865A file information form PN 09865-90001 no date. Intact.
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - 9830A program forms PN 09830-90016 no date. Intact.

Booklets & cards
* Hewlett-Packard 9830A calculator - System test instructions. PN 09830-90032 Feb 1973
* Quick reference to H-P Models 30 BASIC PN 09830-90012 no date (Qty 2)

Leaflets, etc
* 11272B/F Extended I/O ROM Tech data Jul 1974 PN 5952-8925 (09) 2 pages
* 11289B Advanced programming II ROM Tech data Mar 1975 PN 5952-8959 (09) 2 pages
* "Tape operating systems make data storage easy" no date, no PN. Silverfish damaged. 4 pages.
* Changes. "only one manual set - paper shortage." Jan 1974 1 page.
* Errata 9830A Math pac. Aug 23 1973. 1 page
* Business reply envelope, HP, unused. PN 9230-0051
* Cassette tape storage cards for ring binder. PN 9230-0065 Qty 2

Magazines
* HP KEYBOARD Vol. 5 NO. 4

Photocopies
* Chapter 2 onwards, of the Matrices manual(?)
* HP 9866A Printer - peripheral manual. (c)1972


Other items
* Small cardboard box containing 10 cassette tapes:
- Three HP software cassettes
- 09830-90035 Systems test cassette (includes 9869A test)
- 09839-70000 Math pac vol.1. General
- 09830-90014 Training cassette - simplified

- 2 cassettes in sealed plastic bags (never opened)
- HP 9162-0050 digital cassette
- one cassette in plain white case.

- 3 cassettes in white cases, in opened plastic bags.
- 2 cassettes in clear cases, both with user labels.

* Pack of fuses.
* 4 keyboard function key overlays.
- Special functions (new in bag)
- Math (new in bag)
- Basic (new in bag)
- Math (used, dirty & corroded. Was on Unit 1.)
* Two Allen keys for opening side ROM packs lid. In unopened plastic bag.
* 'Select code' sticker sheet. 1-9 in unopened plastic bag.
* Unopened plastic bag with 5 plastic 'cable clips' (?)






----------previously--------

From: Rik Bos
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:04 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?


Lee,



Do you have a list of which files are missing?

I made a copy of most of the files on Brent’s site when it was active.

So there is a reasonable chance I have them.



-Rik



Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Lee A. White
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 9:05
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.



Lee



From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

To: VintHPcom@groups.io

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I’ve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven’t heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.



Jack



From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?



Thanks for the clarification. I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display. Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part. I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor. Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces. I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again. Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Lee A. White
 

Rik
 
Sorry, I don't have a list.
 
I attempted to down load everything there - with mixed results.
Clicking on the links in the text sometimes resulted in file not found errors.
IIRC the project resource files were mostly missing.
I was specifically looking for:
schematics - got them
9830 and 9866 ROM code - no luck
source and binary code for his projects - no luck there either
As I recall, some of the photos were gone too.
 
I am still looking for :
9830/66 ROM code
HP part number to JEDEC part number cross reference
HP's theory of operation write ups:
    these were done by the design engineers themselves
    they did have them for the overall system and for each board
    they were for internal use only - I don't believe they were ever released
 
I REALLY REALLY REGRET TOSSING ALL THIS YEARS AGO! 
 
Anyone out there have:
cherry key switch
9830 unbroken keyboard bezel
9866B HP emblem - the glue in bar type
rear case bumpers - even broken ones that I can use as a model
display chip
memory extension board
diagnostics tape
 
 
Lee
 

From: Rik Bos
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Lee,

 

Do you have a list of which files are missing?

I made a copy of most of the files on Brent’s site when it was active.

So there is a reasonable chance I have them.

 

-Rik

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Lee A. White
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 9:05
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.

 

Lee

 

From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I’ve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven’t heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.

 

Jack

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display.  Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part.  I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor.  Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces.  I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again.  Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Lee,

 

Do you have a list of which files are missing?

I made a copy of most of the files on Brent’s site when it was active.

So there is a reasonable chance I have them.

 

-Rik

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Lee A. White
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 9:05
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.

 

Lee

 

From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I’ve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven’t heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.

 

Jack

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display.  Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part.  I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor.  Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces.  I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again.  Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

David Collins
 

I’ve updated the hpmuseum.net site so that the link to Brent’s old webpages now link to the Wayback Machine’s copy. If those missing sub pages are found I’m happy to host them on the museum’s 9830 page as well.

 

David Collins…

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> On Behalf Of Lee A. White
Sent: Friday, 17 August 2018 5:05 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.

 

Lee

 

From: Jack Rubin

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM

Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I’ve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven’t heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.

 

Jack

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display.  Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part.  I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor.  Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces.  I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again.  Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: Replacement drives for a HP 9121D & 9122D

Jack Rubin
 

I really like the 9122 drives in terms of reliability (of both drives and media). I've had excellent luck restoring them - I've been through a half-dozen or so and all except one have been fine once the drives are freed up (the only failure had obviously been flooded and the drives were corroded and rusty).

I use spray contact cleaner to dissolve and then flush out the old lube. The most gummed-up part is usually the large flat plate on the right side of the drive (viewed from the front). It's just a matter of applying solvent, letting things sit for a little while and then starting to wiggle things as they loosen. As long as you're patient and don't force anything, I expect you'll be successful. There is probably no need to apply lubrication after cleaning since (1) there is probably a little residual lube and (2) you're unlikely to subject the drive to heavy use once you've restored it. If you do want to lubricate the moving parts, I'd consider a minimal amount of Nye synthetic clock oil.

I also very carefully clean the heads with alcohol on a swab while the drive is removed from the chassis. If you have problems with a single drive, you can also swap their positions - I think there is a small switch on the back of the drive to set it for 0 or 1;  my memory isn't clear on this, so check the manual.


Jack

 

Replacement drives for a HP 9121D & 9122D

Tony Goodhew
 

Hi all,

I just acquired some 9121D & 9122D's and the drives are all failed. Some of them have the classic 'head ripped off' issue, some just appeared gunked up. I haven't yet had any luck cleaning those out but I'm still trying.

I'm wondering though if there is a modern replacement drive (or even NOS old drives) available out there that I can't seem to find.

Any recommendations/suggestions?

Thanks,

TonyG

Re: HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Lee A. White
 

Brent Hilpert's outstanding web pages are still available on the WayBack Machine and the schematics are still there too, but some of the resource sub pages are not included which means the binary code and source files for the projects and some other items are not available. It would be great if they could be made available some where again.
 
Lee

From: Jack Rubin
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

Brent Hilpert did a lot of work with his 9830, including printer, terminal and mass storage devices using simple interfaces and a Raspberry Pi. I’ve emailed him asking permission to share his pages with this group but haven’t heard back yet. You might have some luck using the WayBack Machine.

 

Jack

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] On Behalf Of m@...
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:57 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9830A printer communication protocol?

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I got my 9830 for free, but it had a fault in the display.  Using the Tony Duel manuals, I found the bad chip and replaced it with a 74LS part.  I think I'll try decoding the printer output and just display it to a monitor.  Is it just ttl signaling?

My unit has one major cosmetic fault: The front plastic bezel that goes all around the keyboard is broken into two pieces.  I can tell the previous owner glued it, and it broke again.  Its an ugly spot on an otherwise nice machine.

-Mark Sherman

Re: Light pen update

Ansgar
 

Nice progress. Just to be curious, how does the system behave if you completely remove the photodiode or if you replace it by a resistor?

I by the way since yesterday have a working light pen setup again at my side, I managed to acquire a new working light pen controller (killed the last one by idiotically inserting it into a 98780 with wrong orientation, +/- 27V was too much for it, that one now waits for repair).

Re: Light pen update

François Lanciault
 

Hi everyone,

Good progress made today on the light pen front!

If you remember the saga, my prototype was issuing a constant waveform a few kHz in frequency, with or without the photodiode attached. The signal was quite stable with a peak to peak amplitude of about 6 volts so it was not what I would call random noise. The BB was generating this signal on its own, instead of amplifying the photodiode output.

So today, I decided to replace the SN3906 transistor with some BC557 ones as the later was closer to the SN4917 it was replacing. It has no effect on the wave signal. Also I bought some 1.5 pF capacitor to replace the 1.0 pF capacitor that were installed on the BB in order to be exactly as per the schematic. In fact I replaced one of the 1.0pF a few days ago and couldn't see any difference in the output.

But today, I replaced the second one. In fact, the BB was connected to the computer and to the scope when I removed the last 1.0 pF from the breadboard. Immediately, the 18kHz waveform disappeared from the scope to be replace by a lot of noises. For me this was good news! 

Looking under a microscope at the markings on the 1.0 pF capacitors I realized they were in fact 1000pF capacitors (102 marked on them). However, they were identified as 1.0 pF on each individual bags they came into. Stupid store. And stupid me not having checked before. I guess this explain the 18khz waveform...

With the 1.5 pF installed, the noise level was nevertheless similar and the scope decided if was a signal with a 200kHz frequency or so and an amplitude of 5 volts peak to peak. So I am looking at amplified noise, not background noise. But the noise level can be lower (about 1V peak to peak) if the BB is far from the computer and far from me... As soon as my hands are near the BB (not even touching) the noise amplitude reach 5 Volts. It stays at 1 volts if I grab the BB with plastic clamps but again it climbs to 5 volts when near the computer.

However with the scope time scale adjusted to 10hz per division and the photodiode directly in front of the screen, I can see the the 60hz signal entangled in the noise mess. And with the lenses attached, the photo diode signal standout even more from the noises and become very short in time i.e. about the same shape as with Lee's pen.

In conclusion, it seems the lightpen amplifier work well and generate the signal as it should but it also amplify every electromagnetic interference around it to about the same level as the photo diode signal. So the next step is to shield everything like crazy in order to reduce the background noise to an acceptable level (and I know what level it should be because of Lee's pen). After that, with some fine tuning work, the light pen has a good chance of being functional.

François

Re: HP 9830A repair, restoration and exploration

 

You also can find a repair manual written by Tony for the 98X0 systems on the Museum site.

He describes all the subsystems of the machine and wrote a very nice story how to repair the 9810,20 and 30 machines.

Be sure to work ESD safe, the rom and ram ic’s are susceptible to ESD damage, fist series ram are all p-mos the rom are n-mos.

And at first check your power supply for the correct voltages.

The cpu and other logic are build around 7400 TTL and sometimes 74H TTL, the 74H  series TTL only has lower value pull-up resistors, they are about the half of the value used in the standard TTL series. Those resistors have a higher failure rate due to the increased power they dissipate.

I’ve restored/repaired several 98X0 machines and for what it’s worth my top 3 of failures are:

H-series ic’s

National Semiconductor DM series TTL

74121/123 multivibrators

 

My 2 cents,

-Rik

 

 

 

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Mattis Lind
Verzonden: woensdag 15 augustus 2018 15:43
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 9830A repair, restoration and exploration

 

 

 

2018-08-15 15:01 GMT+02:00 <guykd@...>:

Hello, I'm new to this group. I'm currently embarking on repair and restoration of one HP 9830A machine (and another to follow.) Hence found this group.

Background: The Australian Computer Museum Society's lease on a storage space was terminated with little notice, and getting all the treasures out was hectic. Some of them had to be dispersed to anyone who could take them.    See  http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1112-vintage-computer-warehouse-diving/?all   (I'm TerraHertz on that forum.)

As a result I'm now holding two intact HP 9830As (one with printer), a HP 9835A (missing CRT), and a HP 85 (missing several internal parts.)
I've started work on the worse of the two  9830As, which does not run. Notes and photos here:
   
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/hp-9830a-desktop-programmable-calculator-an-exploration/
   And I will eventually have a writeup on my own blog here:
everist.org/NobLog/

Disappointingly, the service manual here:   https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=55 

lacks schematics for all but a few simple PCBs. The rest of the PCBs were on HP's blue and red stripe swap-replacement program.

I have several clean manuals for the machine and the ROM packs, that I will scan. Some are not already online.

What I'm asking  - does anyone have other sources of 9830A docs beyond what's on hpmuseum? Particularly the schematics for the rest of the PCBs.

 

 

Very nice!

 

I have done a restoration of a HP9830B which is very similar. I put my notes here: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp9830

 

In the bottom section there are links to the very good hand drawn schematics made by Tony Duell. Brent Hilpert once also had a nice page on the 9830. Now it is gone and can be found on waybackmachine. Including the very well done schematics. There is also a link to the repair manual that Tony wrote. Very good detail on how to repair it!

 

Good luck with the machines!

 

/Mattis

  

 

Re: Looking for info on HP-9808A

fulivi@...
 

Thanks for the video frequencies: they somehow confirm the suspicion I had about an undocumented "double clock" mode in the GPU.
In 9808 the GPU is set for 110 GPU clocks per horizontal line (or 880 pixels) and 425 lines per frame. If we suppose the dot clock is set to 22.44 MHz, the GPU clock is 2.8 MHz (well within its max range of 5 MHz), the horizontal freq. is then 25.5 kHz and vert. freq. is 60 Hz. I think these numbers are a close match with yours.
As for the doc availability, I already had very little hope of finding any when I asked... :)
Oh, almost forgot: do you have any picture of the 9808 mainboard at a decent resolution, please? Without a schematic that would be better than nothing...
Thanks.
--F.Ulivi