Date   

Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

Guy Dunphy
 

When I said I hadn't found a source for the stepped washers, really I'd just been too lazy to search yet.
Now easily found the correct fastener sets for metric cage nuts, including the black nylon washers.
Googled rackmount M6 flanged nylon washers

https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/screw-bolt-nut-washer-kits/5425410/ AU$12.21/set of 10
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-12-M6-Rack-Mount-Cage-Nuts-Bolts-w-Nylon-Washers-Square-Clips-Server/252427506259 US $8.99/set of 12.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000370449729.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.449d5079zKRMpj US$6.90/20, $24/100

I've ordered 50 of the Aliexpress ones. They'll take a month to get here.

Guy

At 07:30 PM 30/11/2020 -0800, you wrote:
The fasteners I'm looking for are used to attach component faceplates to the front of the rack. What Guy has described above are the rack rails and attaching bolts and clamps (though HP specs the bolts as 1/4-20 in US measure; I'm guessing 1/4 BSW must be pretty close if the threads mate). Here's a photo of the screw/cup washer/nylon washer system used on the front panels - the top row shows the original HP hardware, below is what I have been able to source to date. Not shown are the screw heads - the HP hardware is pozidriv, the new hardware is standard Philips head. I can't find US thread sizes with pozidriv heads, so I'll settle for the Philips. No problem with the stainless steel cup washer but the new nylon washers are too big. HP nylon washers are .565" OD, .218" ID and .09" thick. The new ones are .575" OD, .201" ID and .155" thick.


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

nigel adams
 

I have an HP rack/mobile trolley in which the vertical rails are actually threaded rather than cage nut stamping.

That makes finding the fixings much more fun...


On 1 Dec 2020, at 10:39, Martin Hepperle <Martin.Hepperle@...> wrote:

A search fpr nylon washers turned up these: https://nyfast.com/nylon-washers/10075-nylon-finishing-washers
Metric, yes, but maybe...


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

Martin Hepperle
 

A search fpr nylon washers turned up these: https://nyfast.com/nylon-washers/10075-nylon-finishing-washers
Metric, yes, but maybe...


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

Peter Brown
 

Hi Jack,

I think that I have a few of these (somewhere) over here in the UK - how many do you need?

Cheers

Peter


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

 

Jack,

 

Is it an option, to print the nylon washers with a 3-d printer? The function of the washer is to fill the metal washer so it can’t be damaged/deformed by the screw and prevent scratching of the panel. It shouldn’t be a problem if they’re from ABS or another kind of plastic as long as they fit.

 

-Rik

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Jack Rubin
Verzonden: dinsdag 1 december 2020 4:31
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] Fasteners for HP rack mounting

 

The fasteners I'm looking for are used to attach component faceplates to the front of the rack. What Guy has described above are the rack rails and attaching bolts and clamps (though HP specs the bolts as 1/4-20 in US measure; I'm guessing 1/4 BSW must be pretty close if the threads mate). 

Here's a photo of the screw/cup washer/nylon washer system used on the front panels - the top row shows the original HP hardware, below is what I have been able to source to date. Not shown are the screw heads - the HP hardware is pozidriv, the new hardware is standard Philips head. I can't find US thread sizes with pozidriv heads, so I'll settle for the Philips. No problem with the stainless steel cup washer but the new nylon washers are too big. HP nylon washers are .565" OD, .218" ID and .09" thick. The new ones are .575" OD, .201" ID and .155" thick.

 


Here's a detail of the screws in place on an older style rack:


--
Jack
www.computerarium.org


File /HP1000/HP 1000 A-series/A- Series Firmware/A400 FW Source Files.zip uploaded #file-notice

VintHPcom@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the VintHPcom@groups.io group.

By: Roland Dietiker

Description:
"A400 FW Source Files" Archive contains sources for replication of the firmware of the A400. Includes Paraphraser - and HD63701 V1 sources


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

Jack Rubin
 
Edited

The fasteners I'm looking for are used to attach component faceplates to the front of the rack. What Guy has described above are the rack rails and attaching bolts and clamps (though HP specs the bolts as 1/4-20 in US measure; I'm guessing 1/4 BSW must be pretty close if the threads mate). 

Here's a photo of the screw/cup washer/nylon washer system used on the front panels - the top row shows the original HP hardware, below is what I have been able to source to date. Not shown are the screw heads - the HP hardware is pozidriv, the new hardware is standard Philips head. I can't find US thread sizes with pozidriv heads, so I'll settle for the Philips. No problem with the stainless steel cup washer but the new nylon washers are too big. HP nylon washers are .565" OD, .218" ID and .09" thick. The new ones are .575" OD, .201" ID and .155" thick.

 

Here's a detail of the screws in place on an older style rack:

--
Jack
www.computerarium.org


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

Glen Slick
 

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 12:27 AM Roland Dietiker <roland.dietiker@...> wrote:

I am missing in the ERD for A400 the Part containing the Part Location on the board and the list with the Replaceable Parts like in the A900 ERD 3-46 and following pages.
It seems not to be planed for this manual.
Did you know where this specific information could be found for A400?
It does seem odd that the A400 ERD includes parts locations and parts
lists for the 12103 memory array cards but not for the A400 12100 CPU
card.

There are approximately 100 DIP packages on the A400 12100 CPU card.
It might not take too much effort to take a high resolution scan of a
12100 card and use that to create a parts location diagram and a parts
list of the DIP and ASIC packages. It would also be nice to create a
cross reference from the DIP parts to grid locators on the schematics.
Maybe something I can work on as time permits.

The A400 ERD does include the following, plus additional backplane and
power supply information not listed below:

HP 1000 A400 Computer
Egnineering and Reference Documentation
02424-90003, July 1990
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/A-series/02424-90003_A400_ERD_Jul90.pdf

Chapter 2, A400 Board Operation

Figure 2-3, Page 2-15, Backplane Buffers and Clocks, Sheet 1 of 13
Figure 2-4, Page 2-17, Memory Control, Sheet 2 of 13
Figure 2-5, Page 2-19, CIL, Addr Reg, Map & Boot RAM, Sheet 3 of 13
Figure 2-6, Page 2-21, Data Path & Parity Generation, Sheet 4 of 13
Figure 2-7, Page 2-23, Address Path, Sheet 5 of 13
Figure 2-8, Page 2-25, Low Byte of RAM Array, Sheet 6 of 13
Figure 2-9, Page 2-27, Parity Bit & High Byte of RAM Array, Sheet 7 of 13
Figure 2-10, Page 2-29, Control Store, Sheet 8 of 13
Figure 2-11, Page 2-31, Processor & Memory Connections, Sheet 9 of 13
Figure 2-12, Page 2-33, Processor I.C. & Bypass Capacitors, Sheet 10 of 13

Chapter 5, On-Board I/O

Figure 5-10, Page 5-23, I/O Section I/O Master, Sheet 11 of 13
Figure 5-11, Page 5-25, I/O Section Port Processors, Sheet 12 of 13
Figure 5-12, Page 5-27, I/O Section I/O Circuits, Sheet 13 of 13

Chapter 6 Memory Arrays

Figure 6-3, Page 6-31, 12103C Parts Locations
Table 6-2, Page 6-32, 12103C Parts List

Figure 6-4, Page 6-35, 12103D Parts Locations
Table 6-3, Page 6-36, 12103D Parts List

Figure 6-5, Page 6-40, 12103K/L/M Parts Locations
Table 6-4, Page 6-41, 12103K Parts List
Table 6-5, Page 6-43, 12103L Parts List
Table 6-6, Page 6-46, 12103M Parts List

Page 6-51, 12103A/B/C Memory Array, Sheet 1 of 2
Page 6-53, 12103A/B/C Memory Array, Sheet 2 of 2

Page 6-55, 12103D Memory Array, Sheet 1 of 3
Page 6-57, 12103D Memory Array, Sheet 2 of 3
Page 6-59, 12103D Memory Array, Sheet 3 of 3

Page 6-61, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 1 of 7
Page 6-63, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 2 of 7
Page 6-65, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 3 of 7
Page 6-67, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 4 of 7
Page 6-69, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 5 of 7
Page 6-71, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 6 of 7
Page 6-73, 12103K/L/M Memory Array, Sheet 7 of 7


File /HP1000/HP 1000 A-series/A- Series Firmware/A400-12100-Microcode.zip uploaded #file-notice

VintHPcom@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the VintHPcom@groups.io group.

By: Glen Slick

Description:
HP A400 12100 CPU microcode PROMs Verified to be identical to the contents dumped from a set of 4K x 8 12100-80010 - 12100-80013 PROMs, and a set of 8K x 8 12100-80023 - 12100-80026 PROMs removed from HP A400 12100 CPU boards.


Nice working 9845B on eBay

 

Not my system, but I came across this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HP-HEWLETT-PACKARD-9845B-DESKTOP-COMPUTER-9895A-8-FLEXIBLE-DISC-MEMORY/293750237426?hash=item4464e0e8f2:g:RwYAAOSwu6VfYmXt

I don't know about the disk drive, but they show the computer booting to the prompt.  The asking price is pretty good for a working machine, if anyone is interested in these machines.  I think this seller moves a lot of similar stuff, so should not be a risk of shipping it in a Weber Grill box wrapped with a few layers of paper towels.  But I would make extra sure it's packed properly, in 3 boxes.

Dave


The Amigo protocol: Undocumented command 0x6A, Opcode 0x08?

Anders
 

Has anyone, Ansgar perhaps seen this puppy? For some reason has my HP1632D, started issuing those:

[5F 1][3F 1][54 1][20 1][MLA][68 1][16 0][ 0 0]
AM:Wakeup[3F 1][3F 1][54 1][20 1][MLA][68 1][ 3 0][ 0 0][3F 1][3F 1][34 1][40 1][MTA][68 1]
AM:Send status
TXDATA len 4 
TXData B35 4
 
 00 00 0D 00 00 | .....
[5F 1][3F 1][54 1][20 1][MLA][68 1][ 2 0][ 0 0][ 0 0][ 0 0][ 0 0][ 2 0]
AM:Seek: 0 0 0 2, s:2
Seeking to 512 (200)[3F 1][3F 1][54 1][20 1][MLA][6A 1][ 8 0][ 0 0][3F 1][3F 1][54 1][20 1][MLA][60 1]
AM:Unbuff wr c/h/s: 0/0/2 s:2 
Receive256 
AM:Unbuff wr 256 bytes rx
AM: Incr: 0 0 0 3, [3F 1][3F 1][34 1][40 1][MTA][70 1]
AM:DSJ

It appears to work if I treat it as an unbuffered read, ie the analyser, which checksums its config files, manages to store and load, but undocumented stuff irks me, so I am looking for confirmation here :)


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

Roland Dietiker
 

Hi Glen
Thanks for this useful complementary information about the contents of the Firmware ROM.
I have also found the sources on bitsaver with PN 12100-1xxxxx Rev 4012 as Master Files..

I am missing in the ERD for A400 the Part containing the Part Location on the board and the list with the Replaceable Parts like in the A900 ERD 3-46 and following pages.
It seems not to be planed for this manual.
Did you know where this specific information could be found for A400?

Best regards
Roland

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] Im Auftrag von Glen Slick
Gesendet: Montag, 30. November 2020 07:33
An: VintHPcom@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:35 PM Roland Dietiker <roland.dietiker@...> wrote:

Hi Rainer

I propose to exchange the VCP EPROMs (U908 U1108, 2764 EEPROMs) and check if the error allready persists. This is the easiest way to exclude an error on VCP EPROMs.

If this not change the situation, let me know which FW revision the board contains: partnumber of the firmware ROMs 12100-800xx (212, U312, U1412, U1512, U208).
The Communicator/1000 for Software Update 6.0, 5961-6201, December
1992 manual lists these 4 sets of part numbers for the A400 microcode PROMs U1212 - U1512:

12100-80010 - 12100-80013
12100-80015 - 12100-80018
12100-80019 - 12100-80022
12100-80023 - 12100-80026

As far as I can tell there might actually only be one version of the microcode for the A400. The different part numbers might just mean different blank PROM parts, that is 4K x 8 vs 8K x 8, and different part vendors.

I have one A400 CPU with DM87S421 4K x 8 PROMs screen printed with the
12100-80010 - 12100-80013 part numbers. I dumped the contents of those PROMs and they are identical matches for the 12100-16005_Rev-4012.src - 12100-16008_Rev-4012.src ASCII-Hex file format source for those PROMs in the HP 1000 Software Archive. And those appear to match the A400 microcode source files 12100-18003_Rev-4012.src and 12100-18002_Rev-4012.src and the assembled listing files 12100-17005_Rev-4012.src and 12100-17006_Rev-4012.src.

I have two A400 CPUs with CY7C263 8K x 8 PROMs (actually OTP EPROMs) screen printed with the 12100-80023 - 12100-80026 part numbers. I dumped the contents of those PROMs and they are identical matches for the 4K x 8 set 12100-80010 - 12100-80013, but with the first 4K half set to zero in the 8K set. The A400 CPU schematic shows that the CS3 /
A12 pin of the microcode PROM sockets is tied to a +5V pullup so only the second 4K half of the 8K PROMs is accessed.


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

Glen Slick
 

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:35 PM Roland Dietiker <roland.dietiker@...> wrote:

Hi Rainer

I propose to exchange the VCP EPROMs (U908 U1108, 2764 EEPROMs) and check if the error allready persists. This is the easiest way to exclude an error on VCP EPROMs.

If this not change the situation, let me know which FW revision the board contains: partnumber of the firmware ROMs 12100-800xx (212, U312, U1412, U1512, U208).
The Communicator/1000 for Software Update 6.0, 5961-6201, December
1992 manual lists these 4 sets of part numbers for the A400 microcode
PROMs U1212 - U1512:

12100-80010 - 12100-80013
12100-80015 - 12100-80018
12100-80019 - 12100-80022
12100-80023 - 12100-80026

As far as I can tell there might actually only be one version of the
microcode for the A400. The different part numbers might just mean
different blank PROM parts, that is 4K x 8 vs 8K x 8, and different
part vendors.

I have one A400 CPU with DM87S421 4K x 8 PROMs screen printed with the
12100-80010 - 12100-80013 part numbers. I dumped the contents of
those PROMs and they are identical matches for the
12100-16005_Rev-4012.src - 12100-16008_Rev-4012.src ASCII-Hex file
format source for those PROMs in the HP 1000 Software Archive. And
those appear to match the A400 microcode source files
12100-18003_Rev-4012.src and 12100-18002_Rev-4012.src and the
assembled listing files 12100-17005_Rev-4012.src and
12100-17006_Rev-4012.src.

I have two A400 CPUs with CY7C263 8K x 8 PROMs (actually OTP EPROMs)
screen printed with the 12100-80023 - 12100-80026 part numbers. I
dumped the contents of those PROMs and they are identical matches for
the 4K x 8 set 12100-80010 - 12100-80013, but with the first 4K half
set to zero in the 8K set. The A400 CPU schematic shows that the CS3 /
A12 pin of the microcode PROM sockets is tied to a +5V pullup so only
the second 4K half of the 8K PROMs is accessed.


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

Roland Dietiker
 

Hi Rainer

I propose to exchange the VCP EPROMs (U908 U1108, 2764 EEPROMs) and check if the error allready persists. This is the easiest way to exclude an error on VCP EPROMs.

If this not change the situation, let me know which FW revision the board contains: partnumber of the firmware ROMs 12100-800xx (212, U312, U1412, U1512, U208).

 

You could reach me at roland.dietiker@....

 

Best regards

Roland

 

Von: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] Im Auftrag von horniger
Gesendet: Sonntag, 29. November 2020 18:40
An: VintHPcom@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

 

Thanks again for the tip with the PROMs. This could be a good start...

Are these PROM HP manufactured?
Or do you know which manufacturer and type/ model these PROMs are?

PROMMER/ READER I own are:
- DataIO System19
- Kontron EPP-80
- SUNSHINE EW-70x
- HI-LO systems ALL-11C

thanks

Rainer


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

Glen Slick
 

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM horniger <forum@...> wrote:

Thanks again for the tip with the PROMs. This could be a good start...

Are these PROM HP manufactured?
Or do you know which manufacturer and type/ model these PROMs are?
Some references:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/A-series/02424-90003_A400_ERD_Jul90.pdf
HP 1000 A400 Computer Egnineering and Reference Documentation,
02424-90003, July 1990
Figure 2-10, Control Store Schematic Diagram, Page 2-29/2-30 (Page 48
of the PDF)
This shows the microcode control store PROMs as DM87S421 parts.

http://www.bitsavers.org/components/national/_dataBooks/1987_Non-Volatile_Memory_Databook.pdf
National Semiconductor Non-Volatile Memory Databook, 1987
DM77/87S321, DM77/87S421 (4096 X 8) 32,768-Bit TTL PROMs
Page 3-39 (Page 240 of the PDF)
4K x 8, non-registered, tri-state output

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/communicator/1000/5961-6201_Dec-1992.pdf
Communicator/1000 for Software Update 6.0, 5961-6201, December 1992
3.33.1 A400 Base Set Firmware Page 3-104 (Page 230 of the PDF)
The note for the 12100-80023 through 12100-80026 microcode PROM set
says the supplier changed from Signetics to Cypress, in addition to
using National parts.

http://www.bitsavers.org/components/philips/_dataBooks/1990_Philips_IC10_Memories_MOS_TTL_and_ECL_Data_Handbook.pdf
Signetics / Philips Memories MOS, TTL, and ECL Data Handbook, 1990
Signetics/Philips N82LHS321/82LHS321
Page 471 (Page 476 of the PDF)
82LHS321 32K-Bit TTL Bipolar PROM

http://www.bitsavers.org/components/cypress/_dataBooks/1993_Cypress_High-Performance_Data_book.pdf
Cypress Semiconductor High Performance Data Book, 1993
CY7C261/CY7C263/CY7C264 8K X 8 Power-Switched and Reprogrammable PROM
Page 3-64 (Page 575 of the PDF)
The A400 12100 uses the CY7C263 version. (These are only
reprogrammable in the ceramic UV window packages, they are OTP in the
plastic packages).
Note sure if only the high 4K of these 8K parts are used on the A400.
The A400 schematic only shows address A0 through A11 connected to the
PROMs.

My BP Microsystems device programmer explicitly supports the
Signetics/Philips 82LHS321 and the Cypress CY7C263, but not the
National DM87S421 parts. I haven't checked my Data I/O UniSite
supported device list.

For read-only purposes any pin compatible 4KB PROM should work. For
programming you would need to make sure you use the correct
programming algorithm for the device.


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

 

The cpu boards were never meant to be field repairable.

They are field replaceable parts to be exchanged by the service engineer.

Don’t let that knowledge stop you trying to repair the cpu 😉

 

-Rik

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens horniger
Verzonden: zondag 29 november 2020 18:31
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

 

Thanks for your help and the link. I already know the documents onbitsavers.

Unfortunately there's only a short description of this error, but not how to try to fix.
We checked the voltages, so it seems, that power supply is OK. (We haven't tried to check, if it's stable enogh --> old capacities...)
But how can we find a problem on the CPU board?
Or is it uncommon or not possibile to repair a CPU board instead of replacing?

thanks

Rainer


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

 

No, they are standard parts, finding replacements shouldn’t be very difficult.

I think one of your programmers should do the job.

 

-Rik

 

Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens horniger
Verzonden: zondag 29 november 2020 18:40
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

 

Thanks again for the tip with the PROMs. This could be a good start...

Are these PROM HP manufactured?
Or do you know which manufacturer and type/ model these PROMs are?

PROMMER/ READER I own are:
- DataIO System19
- Kontron EPP-80
- SUNSHINE EW-70x
- HI-LO systems ALL-11C

thanks

Rainer


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

horniger
 

Thanks again for the tip with the PROMs. This could be a good start...

Are these PROM HP manufactured?
Or do you know which manufacturer and type/ model these PROMs are?

PROMMER/ READER I own are:
- DataIO System19
- Kontron EPP-80
- SUNSHINE EW-70x
- HI-LO systems ALL-11C

thanks

Rainer


Re: HP 1000 A400 repair #HP1000

horniger
 

Thanks for your help and the link. I already know the documents onbitsavers.

Unfortunately there's only a short description of this error, but not how to try to fix.
We checked the voltages, so it seems, that power supply is OK. (We haven't tried to check, if it's stable enogh --> old capacities...)
But how can we find a problem on the CPU board?
Or is it uncommon or not possibile to repair a CPU board instead of replacing?

thanks

Rainer


Re: Fasteners for HP rack mounting

Guy Dunphy
 

At 03:52 PM 27/11/2020 -0800, John wrote:
Hi,
Have you got a close up picture of the side rails on the HP racks? At work I think all the 19" racks have rectangular holes and as Martin wrote you have to insert cage nuts with spring clips that snap into the hole. The nut thread then matches the corresponding bolt thread.
For example here's Oracle's rack (which is typical) with M6 threads:
https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19657-01/html/E29153/z400012a1005715.html
Any electrical supply shop will have these.
Regards,
John
Some pics here: http://everist.org/pics/hp_rack/
pics 8087, 8089 and 8090 show the old HP rack slide rails hardware.

Those parallelogram shaped nuts with the attached springs, come with various hole/thread sizes.
But for HP side slide rails it's best to use 1/4" BSW, with hex head bolts so they can be tightened
very solidly. You don't want the side rails to slip under equipment weight.
Tighten enough for the nut side 'teeth' to dig into the aluminium rack vertical extrusion. Just short
of the force required to deform the nut plate. And ALWAYS check the nuts are fully rotated into the
slots before tightening. They can be incompletely rotated and still feel OK when tightening.
I don't know where to buy these spring nuts - have been fortunate to salvage enough for my needs.


Pic 20201128_8093_metric.jpg is a standard modern rack metric cage nut and M6 screw with matching black nylon
protective washer. The stepped edge on the washer makes a press fit to the screw head.
Does anyone know a supplier for these? I had found some, have now run out.


Old DEC equipment racks are different too. They have vertical struts with columns of 1/4" round holes
punched for both the front flanges and the slide rails.
See 20201128_8094_DEC.jpg
For the side rails in DEC racks I use 1/4" BSW gutter bolts and nuts, and the 'clip-on' nuts
for the front flanges. Typically with UNF #10 thread, the same as the old HP front flange nut-strip inserts.
The painfull part with these DEC racks is that since the slide and flange rack holes are in fixed positions,
you have to drill the mounting holes in the slide rails exactly right. Both vertically and horizontally.

Pic 20201128_8095_tool.jpg is a hand tool I made to help insert and extract cage nuts. Very useful.

Guy

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