Date   
Re: Error 128 - Line too long during get

Anders
 

Thanks again. Both image files worked perfectly and the one RMBGuru sent is a perfect illustration what difference there is loading a PROG versus an ASCII-file.

I did a compare of the file Rik sent and the one produced by libdisk and they are indeed different. In the libdisk one the first difference seems to be ath offset 1000h where the data is pushed up 80h bytes. I have alerted John Eliot.

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

 

thanks - I’ll keep an eye out
Brian

On Feb 3, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

[EXTERNAL SENDER]

On 2/3/20 11:06 AM, Brian White wrote:
Yikes. What do you recommend instead of the black foam? I just had to
toss a bunch of old ICs whose leads had rusted in completely degraded
black foam. I put the survivors in nice new black foam from Jameco -
that sounds stupider as I write this than when I did it - I was hoping
that 2020’s foam was better than 1970’s foam. Any suggestions?

 Well, that 2020s foam will be fine for a while. ;)  But the best
solution seems to be plastic chip tubes.  They pop up on eBay
frequently, sometimes in nice large batches.

           -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA




----------
Brian White
Associate Provost for Student Success
Associate Professor of Biology
Quinn 3-070
617 287-5611
UMass Boston
100 Morrissey Blvd
Boston, MA 02125
http://intro.bio.umb.edu/BW/
KA1TBQ
https://brianwhite94.wixsite.com/electronics

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

 

A hair fracture with oxidation eats away the pins.
The hair fractures in the silver are caused by bending the pins under a small angle. Humidity speeds it up.

-Rik




On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 5:06 PM +0100, "Brian White" <brian.white@...> wrote:

Dave
Yikes. What do you recommend instead of the black foam? I just had to toss a bunch of old ICs whose leads had rusted in completely degraded black foam. I put the survivors in nice new black foam from Jameco - that sounds stupider as I write this than when I did it - I was hoping that 2020’s foam was better than 1970’s foam. Any suggestions?
Thanks

Brian

On Feb 3, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

[EXTERNAL SENDER]

On 2/3/20 10:35 AM, Steve Leibson wrote:
Plastic packaged chips are definitely not hermetic.

 Right, they were never intended to be.

Water vapor
capillaries in between the metal/plastic interfaces, drags in
impurities, oxidizes and erodes the metal, and the chip's lead frame
falls apart or the silicon passivation layer fails.

 Yes.  What we're referring to here, though, is the specific type of
lead frame corrosion that seems to affect TI chips, and no others.

I had some chips
plugged into black plastic foam for five decades or so. The foam
deteriorated to powder, blackened leads, and the chips crumbled when
touched.

 Yeah.  Everyone stores their chips in that black foam, and we need to
stop doing that.  I've eliminated most of it here, but I still have some
that I need to address.

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA




----------
Brian White
http://intro.bio.umb.edu/BW/
KA1TBQ
https://brianwhite94.wixsite.com/electronics

Re: Troubleshooting a 9845C

 

OK, I found the design files for the turn-on fixture on hp9845.net, and have already ordered the PCB's.

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 11:06 AM, Brian White wrote:
Yikes. What do you recommend instead of the black foam? I just had to
toss a bunch of old ICs whose leads had rusted in completely degraded
black foam. I put the survivors in nice new black foam from Jameco -
that sounds stupider as I write this than when I did it - I was hoping
that 2020’s foam was better than 1970’s foam. Any suggestions?
Well, that 2020s foam will be fine for a while. ;) But the best
solution seems to be plastic chip tubes. They pop up on eBay
frequently, sometimes in nice large batches.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

 

Dave
Yikes. What do you recommend instead of the black foam? I just had to toss a bunch of old ICs whose leads had rusted in completely degraded black foam. I put the survivors in nice new black foam from Jameco - that sounds stupider as I write this than when I did it - I was hoping that 2020’s foam was better than 1970’s foam. Any suggestions?
Thanks

Brian

On Feb 3, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

[EXTERNAL SENDER]

On 2/3/20 10:35 AM, Steve Leibson wrote:
Plastic packaged chips are definitely not hermetic.

 Right, they were never intended to be.

Water vapor
capillaries in between the metal/plastic interfaces, drags in
impurities, oxidizes and erodes the metal, and the chip's lead frame
falls apart or the silicon passivation layer fails.

 Yes.  What we're referring to here, though, is the specific type of
lead frame corrosion that seems to affect TI chips, and no others.

I had some chips
plugged into black plastic foam for five decades or so. The foam
deteriorated to powder, blackened leads, and the chips crumbled when
touched.

 Yeah.  Everyone stores their chips in that black foam, and we need to
stop doing that.  I've eliminated most of it here, but I still have some
that I need to address.

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA




----------
Brian White
http://intro.bio.umb.edu/BW/
KA1TBQ
https://brianwhite94.wixsite.com/electronics

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

 

Dave,

You're right it's NS national semiconductor..

-Rik

-Rik




On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:06 PM +0100, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire@...> wrote:

  Ah ok, sorry.  I'm a bit confused, I'm pretty sure National
Instruments was founded in 1976 or 1977, so NI chips from the "early
1970s" would have been a pretty good trick, but perhaps I'm wrong.

            -Dave

On 2/3/20 10:01 AM, Rik Bos wrote:
> No, he and me are talking about NI not TI, TI 7400 logic has a longer lifespan as for the IC's used in the HP 98X0 series calculators.
> Date stamp early '70th.
> 
> -Rik
> 
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: VintHPcom@groups.io  Namens Dave McGuire
>> Verzonden: maandag 3 februari 2020 15:47
>> Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
>> Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues
>> #VintageHPComputers
>>
>> On 2/3/20 4:46 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
>>> The 'die without notice' applies to all TTL chips made by NI in the
>>> early 1970s. I had to replace dozens of ICs in my various 98xx
>>> calculators and peripherals and in 99% they where made by National
>>> Instruments. If I get a defective 98xx board I first check all NI
>>> chips by means of a logic comparator. NI seemed to have problems with
>>> long term stability of their TTL ICs in the 1970s. The dying already
>>> began in the 1990s and still continues. Some times I thought about
>>> exchanging all NI chips prophylactic, but that would cause a lot of
>>> work in my ~20 devices. Moreover, some chips are hard to find these days.
>>
>>   Pretty sure you mean "Texas Instruments", not "National Instruments".
>>
>>            -Dave
>>
>> --
>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>> New Kensington, PA
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA



Re: Troubleshooting a 9845C

 

Those are all helpful suggestions.  I will make a turn-on fixture and start by troubleshooting the Base unit first. 

I do have a couple of of Ansgar's ROM board PCB's in case I need to replace the ROMs.  I also have a working 9845B (Minus power supply) as a comparison and source for board swapping if necessary.  I also have a spare bit-slice CPU, but have no idea if it works,  I also believe I have some spare boards for the 98770, including a power supply board with pass elements on it.

But first, the turn-on fixture.  The article on Ansgar's site is clear, and it won't be hard to lay out a circuit, but if anyone can point to a set of gerber files, it would be awesome.

I only have little bits of time here and there to work on these projects, so it will be a gradual process.

Many thanks,

Dave

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 10:30 AM, Steve Leibson wrote:
NI (National Instruments) generally makes IEEE-488, PXI, VXI, and
PC-based test equipment and LabView system-development software (and
they're very, very successful at it) although they did once sell their
IEEE-488 chip (but didn't make it themselves). They're based in Austin,
Texas. A very fine company.
Heh...a very successful company, yes. But fine? Far from it. For at
least the past twenty years or so, they've been some of the biggest
jerks in the industry. If you deal with NI or use their products, watch
your back and hedge your bets!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 10:35 AM, Steve Leibson wrote:
Plastic packaged chips are definitely not hermetic.
Right, they were never intended to be.

Water vapor
capillaries in between the metal/plastic interfaces, drags in
impurities, oxidizes and erodes the metal, and the chip's lead frame
falls apart or the silicon passivation layer fails.
Yes. What we're referring to here, though, is the specific type of
lead frame corrosion that seems to affect TI chips, and no others.

I had some chips
plugged into black plastic foam for five decades or so. The foam
deteriorated to powder, blackened leads, and the chips crumbled when
touched.
Yeah. Everyone stores their chips in that black foam, and we need to
stop doing that. I've eliminated most of it here, but I still have some
that I need to address.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Steve Leibson
 

Plastic packaged chips are definitely not hermetic. Water vapor capillaries in between the metal/plastic interfaces, drags in impurities, oxidizes and erodes the metal, and the chip's lead frame falls apart or the silicon passivation layer fails. I had some chips plugged into black plastic foam for five decades or so. The foam deteriorated to powder, blackened leads, and the chips crumbled when touched.

--Steve



On 2/3/2020 7:19 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 2/3/20 10:17 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
That's interesting, since just a few days ago I pulled a TI RAM chip
from 1977 out of a socket and two of the leads simply fell off. And all
are very dark, nearly black. I thought they might be silver plated, but
that doesn't explain the desintegration of the leads without excessive
force.
  That's exactly what we've seen at LSSM.  I do not know the chemistry
of that effect.

          -Dave

-- 
Steve Leibson

Phone (Cell): 408-910-5992
Phone (Home): 408-292-4930


Please feel free to link to me on LinkedIn


History site: www.hp9825.com

#Iwork4Intel

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Steve Leibson
 

Well, someone finally got it right.

NI (National Instruments) generally makes IEEE-488, PXI, VXI, and PC-based test equipment and LabView system-development software (and they're very, very successful at it) although they did once sell their IEEE-488 chip (but didn't make it themselves). They're based in Austin, Texas. A very fine company.

Texas Instruments (TI) was the leading TTL chip vendor back when TTL chips were all important. Their 74xx/xxx series took the digital design world by storm starting in the late 1960s, effectively pushing Fairchild Semi off the map. No self-respecting digital design engineer would be caught dead without the burnt orange TI TTL databook series on their shelves. (I lost mine and had to buy another on eBay three years ago, or else I'd lose my self respect, and I don't even design stuff any more.) Generally very good chips but the 74LS240 octal transceiver family had problems. TI was originally in the oil well instrumentation business, but it bought an early Bell Labs license to make transistors (manufactured with alchemy, not science), and then dominated the TTL and DSP chip scenes for decades. TI owns half the patent for the IC.

National Semiconductor was an analog chip company that branched out into digital chips (and memory, and microprocessors, and PC x86 processors, and, and, and). They made a lot of different parts. Their quality was never the best (a colleague once commented on their original logo that contains an embedded, stylized "approximately equal" sign that's supposed to be an "S", as signifying that National Semi was "approximately equal" to a semiconductor company. They had some good parts, but in particular they had a guy named Bob Pease. He was one of two famous analog gurus. (Jim Williams was the other. Both are gone now.) National Semi is gone now too, having been swallowed whole and digested by TI. It is very strange these days to drive by National Semi's campus in Silicon Valley and see TI signs where National Semi signs had been for half a century.

--Steve



On 2/3/2020 7:07 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
I HAVE TO APPOLOGISE: I wrote bullshit. I meant National Semiconductor (abbreviation NS), not National Instruments (which produce very reliable IEEE and other interface cards).
-- 
Steve Leibson

Phone (Cell): 408-910-5992
Phone (Home): 408-292-4930


Please feel free to link to me on LinkedIn


History site: www.hp9825.com

#Iwork4Intel

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 10:17 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
That's interesting, since just a few days ago I pulled a TI RAM chip
from 1977 out of a socket and two of the leads simply fell off. And all
are very dark, nearly black. I thought they might be silver plated, but
that doesn't explain the desintegration of the leads without excessive
force.
That's exactly what we've seen at LSSM. I do not know the chemistry
of that effect.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Achim Buerger
 

That's interesting, since just a few days ago I pulled a TI RAM chip from 1977 out of a socket and two of the leads simply fell off. And all are very dark, nearly black. I thought they might be silver plated, but that doesn't explain the desintegration of the leads without excessive force.

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 10:07 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
I HAVE TO APPOLOGISE: I wrote bullshit. I meant National Semiconductor
(abbreviation NS), not National Instruments (which produce very reliable
IEEE and other interface cards).
Ahhhh ok, I'm far less confused now! This one threw me for a loop
since I'm only halfway through my first cup of coffee. =)

At LSSM we've had some trouble with Texas Instruments chips, but most
commonly in the form of corrosion on the exposed leads. Not
unreasonable (IMO) due to the age of the components, but we've seen it
more on TI than on other brands, so it must have something to do with
the alloy they used for their lead frames.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Achim Buerger
 

I HAVE TO APPOLOGISE: I wrote bullshit. I meant National Semiconductor (abbreviation NS), not National Instruments (which produce very reliable IEEE and other interface cards).

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

Ah ok, sorry. I'm a bit confused, I'm pretty sure National
Instruments was founded in 1976 or 1977, so NI chips from the "early
1970s" would have been a pretty good trick, but perhaps I'm wrong.

-Dave

On 2/3/20 10:01 AM, Rik Bos wrote:
No, he and me are talking about NI not TI, TI 7400 logic has a longer lifespan as for the IC's used in the HP 98X0 series calculators.
Date stamp early '70th.

-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Dave McGuire
Verzonden: maandag 3 februari 2020 15:47
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues
#VintageHPComputers

On 2/3/20 4:46 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
The 'die without notice' applies to all TTL chips made by NI in the
early 1970s. I had to replace dozens of ICs in my various 98xx
calculators and peripherals and in 99% they where made by National
Instruments. If I get a defective 98xx board I first check all NI
chips by means of a logic comparator. NI seemed to have problems with
long term stability of their TTL ICs in the 1970s. The dying already
began in the 1990s and still continues. Some times I thought about
exchanging all NI chips prophylactic, but that would cause a lot of
work in my ~20 devices. Moreover, some chips are hard to find these days.
Pretty sure you mean "Texas Instruments", not "National Instruments".

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA



--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Achim Buerger
 

No, I really meant NI. I never had problems with TI chips. I have a box of TI spares from the beginning of 1970s, which still work without problem. Furthermore, all of my TI and other calculators with TI chips from beginning of 1970 had nearly no chip defects. Since nearly all defects occured just by aging and in power-off state, I have some assumptions of the defect cause:

1. Re-crystallization or diffusion within the die
2. Corrosion in the AL conductor tracks on the die
3. Detachment of the chip wiring

I observed that several of the defective chips exhibit one or more complete open contact pins. So the alternatives 2 and 3 seem likely. The corrosion could be caused by some acid, either from incompletely cleaned dies in the production process or acid in the plastic chip housing.

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

 

No, he and me are talking about NI not TI, TI 7400 logic has a longer lifespan as for the IC's used in the HP 98X0 series calculators.
Date stamp early '70th.

-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> Namens Dave McGuire
Verzonden: maandag 3 februari 2020 15:47
Aan: VintHPcom@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [VintHPcom] HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues
#VintageHPComputers

On 2/3/20 4:46 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
The 'die without notice' applies to all TTL chips made by NI in the
early 1970s. I had to replace dozens of ICs in my various 98xx
calculators and peripherals and in 99% they where made by National
Instruments. If I get a defective 98xx board I first check all NI
chips by means of a logic comparator. NI seemed to have problems with
long term stability of their TTL ICs in the 1970s. The dying already
began in the 1990s and still continues. Some times I thought about
exchanging all NI chips prophylactic, but that would cause a lot of
work in my ~20 devices. Moreover, some chips are hard to find these days.
Pretty sure you mean "Texas Instruments", not "National Instruments".

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP 9821 - display and tape transport issues #VintageHPComputers

Dave McGuire
 

On 2/3/20 4:46 AM, Achim Buerger wrote:
The 'die without notice' applies to all TTL chips made by NI in the
early 1970s. I had to replace dozens of ICs in my various 98xx
calculators and peripherals and in 99% they where made by National
Instruments. If I get a defective 98xx board I first check all NI chips
by means of a logic comparator. NI seemed to have problems with long
term stability of their TTL ICs in the 1970s. The dying already began in
the 1990s and still continues. Some times I thought about exchanging all
NI chips prophylactic, but that would cause a lot of work in my ~20
devices. Moreover, some chips are hard to find these days.
Pretty sure you mean "Texas Instruments", not "National Instruments".

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA