Date   

Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Paul Berger
 


On 2019-12-15 9:27 p.m., Wolfgang Schraml wrote:
Correct, I do not have the co-processor.
I am using the disk model that the hpi image has been created for - 7959B. When I force "attended mode", I get the following screen so the system does detect the two different versions within the binary file of hpdrive:

image.png


No matter which of the two systems I select to boot, after the message indicating it is booting, it just hangs. Below the screen when selecting the "non-Plus" version:
image.png

Maybe I start looking for a 9133D ...

Thank you, Wolfgang
_._,_._,_


Another thing I just thought of, does you 332 have built in graphics?  If so, and if serial console is supported I am pretty sure you would need to disable the built in graphics display.

I would not be in a big rush to look for something like a 9133, they are very old and finding a fully operational one are not good, on the other hand the use st-506 disks so they are pretty forgiving on replacement disks.  I would really steer clear of 9153 disk units they use an oddball HP disk drives that do not seem to have a good record for reliability and because of the custom interface there are no substitutes.  HPDrive running on a modestly powered Linux box will outperform any of the real HPIB disks in my experience.

I will try booting that image on my 332 in a few minutes.

Paul.   


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Paul Berger
 

On 2019-12-15 6:31 p.m., rmb_guru via Groups.Io wrote:
A 332 doesn't require any specific BASIC version.  All Motorola 68000/68010/68020/68030/68040 based HP9000 systems run the same family of HPBASIC/WS versions.  Martin Trusler is probably right in that the standard 332 doesn't have a MC6882 math co-processor, so HPBASIC/PLUS won't be happy.  Try a non-HPBASIC/PLUS version of HPBASIC

There are versions of HP/UX and thereby HPBASIC/UX versions that can run on your 332, but that is a much more complex setup and you probably won't like the performance.

What disk model is your hpdrive system setup to emulate?

I have a HP9000/R332 (rack mount with touchscreen) system that I also haven't been able to get to boot from a hpdrive setup. Fortunately I still have a working HP9133D (14.8MB Hard Disk) that I can boot from.

I also haven't been able to get my HP9000/236C or HP9000/382 to boot using hpdrive.  Here again I fortunately have a HP9134A (4.6MB Hard Disk and internal floppies) to boot the HP9836C from and my HP382 has an internal Hard Disk to boot from.

All of my systems can read/write data and programs to/from my hpdrive setup, I just can't boot using hpdrive. It has been 2 years since I fiddled around with these machines/setups.

Perhaps someone else on this forum will have some insight on what it takes to boot using hpdrive.  Currently I have a Windows 7 hpdrive setup running with a NI GPIB card on a HP8000elite desktop.
I have booted various versions of WS BASIC, from various 200 and 300 series machines including a 332, from hpdrive emulated disks running on various version of windows, including a laptop running XP with a PCMCIA GPIB card.  I have always done the install of BASIC from a real HPIB diskette unit, the only premade image I have ever used is the 5.1 from hpmuseum.net  My main storage server runs a stripped down   Arch linux with no gui on a pentium II and ISA bus cards.

Are you sure you can use a serial terminal as the console for BASIC?  I have never done it personally and I see no mention of a serial console in my 6.2 Installation manual.  Console support also depends on the mix of binaries in the image you are trying to boot, and if a special binary is required and is not part of the image it will not work, but again no mention of a serial console in the 6.2 Install guide.

Paul.


Paul.


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Wolfgang Schraml
 

Correct, I do not have the co-processor.
I am using the disk model that the hpi image has been created for - 7959B. When I force "attended mode", I get the following screen so the system does detect the two different versions within the binary file of hpdrive:

image.png


No matter which of the two systems I select to boot, after the message indicating it is booting, it just hangs. Below the screen when selecting the "non-Plus" version:
image.png

Maybe I start looking for a 9133D ...

Thank you, Wolfgang


Re: Clarification of CS/80 support on the series 200 computers?

rmb_guru
 

Anders,

Great work on your disk emulator.

Let me know if you would like some help in testing out your design.  I have the following hardware/software/setups available:

HP9000/236C (HP9836C) running HPBASIC or Hpl or CP/M-68K.
HP9000/R332 running HPBASIC
HP9000/382 running HPBASIC or HPBASIC/Plus
A working HP9133D 14.8MB Hard Disk
A working HP9134A 5MB Hard Disk (This drive has over 100,000 hours (11+ years, 24/7) and is still going strong).
Working HP9122C and HP9122D Floppy drives.
A working HP9121D Floppy drive (single sided, mainly used with Hpl)

I also have a HPBASIC2.0 ROM card and a Hpl 2.0 ROM card

I have a hpdrive and hpdisk setup running on a Windows 7 HP8000 desktop using a NI PCI GPIB card.  This setup works fine in read/writing data/programs to/from the machines and the PC.  I haven't been able to successfully boot from hpdrive :-(

I have pretty large collection of HPBASIC and Hpl Software on floppies.

So your setup is of interest to me...


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Arnie Berger
 

I’m pretty sure that you are correct, but… The self-test may not be particularly extensive. When a PC boots up it checks to see if memory is there by writing and reading back something. This isn’t the same as an extensive memory test. If you could find one somewhere, that would rule out hardware.

 

arnie

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schraml
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 2:30 PM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

 

Yes,

All HW tests run through without issues. All 5MB test OK. I even let it run in continuous test mode for a while and no issues.

Thank you, Wolfgang


On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 01:04 PM, Arnie Berger wrote:

Does the CPU test all of memory? I would recommend that you validate the hardware first, then move to the software.

 

Arnie

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schraml
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 10:05 AM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: [VintHPcom] HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

 

Hello,

 

I am working to build up a HP9000/332 controller (right now just for fun but eventually would like to use it together with my HP 8662A and 5345A).
I put together a very basic configuration to start with - 332 CPU with 5MB of memory installed, no keyboard/video, terminal connection to the on-board RS-232 interface. I have a Laptop running QCTerm as a basic terminal.

So far I verified:

- The CPU passes all self tests

- The Boot Rom starts to search for a bootable disk


Next, I built a Debian based "hpdrive" system with a NI GPIB controller. The build was successful and I can mount ".hpi" images. I downloaded the "HP BASIC PLUS 6.33" hpi image from the files section of this forum and mounted it in hpdrive successfully.

Now when I try to boot this image, it starts and then just hangs:
Image removed by sender. image.png

I tried several other hpi images with HP/UX and Pascal systems from HP Museum's web site and found similar issues. The system tries to boot and hangs.
I also tried it with a second 332 CPU I have and the same issue.

My question is - does the 332 require a specific binary image to boot? Just from the release notes, I thought any BASIC version later than 5.13 would work. But maybe there were specific versions for the different CPUs?
Is there a "known working" hpi image for the 332? At this time, I don't care whether it's BASIC or HP/UX. Just trying to get to the point where I can boot anything.

Any thoughts/hints are much appreciated.

Thank you,
Wolfgang, KI7PFX


 


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

rmb_guru
 

A 332 doesn't require any specific BASIC version.  All Motorola 68000/68010/68020/68030/68040 based HP9000 systems run the same family of HPBASIC/WS versions.  Martin Trusler is probably right in that the standard 332 doesn't have a MC6882 math co-processor, so HPBASIC/PLUS won't be happy.  Try a non-HPBASIC/PLUS version of HPBASIC

There are versions of HP/UX and thereby HPBASIC/UX versions that can run on your 332, but that is a much more complex setup and you probably won't like the performance.

What disk model is your hpdrive system setup to emulate?

I have a HP9000/R332 (rack mount with touchscreen) system that I also haven't been able to get to boot from a hpdrive setup.  Fortunately I still have a working HP9133D (14.8MB Hard Disk) that I can boot from.

I also haven't been able to get my HP9000/236C or HP9000/382 to boot using hpdrive.  Here again I fortunately have a HP9134A (4.6MB Hard Disk and internal floppies) to boot the HP9836C from and my HP382 has an internal Hard Disk to boot from.

All of my systems can read/write data and programs to/from my hpdrive setup, I just can't boot using hpdrive. It has been 2 years since I fiddled around with these machines/setups.

Perhaps someone else on this forum will have some insight on what it takes to boot using hpdrive.  Currently I have a Windows 7 hpdrive setup running with a NI GPIB card on a HP8000elite desktop.


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Wolfgang Schraml
 

Yes,

All HW tests run through without issues. All 5MB test OK. I even let it run in continuous test mode for a while and no issues.

Thank you, Wolfgang


On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 01:04 PM, Arnie Berger wrote:

Does the CPU test all of memory? I would recommend that you validate the hardware first, then move to the software.

 

Arnie

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schraml
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 10:05 AM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: [VintHPcom] HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

 

Hello,

 

I am working to build up a HP9000/332 controller (right now just for fun but eventually would like to use it together with my HP 8662A and 5345A).
I put together a very basic configuration to start with - 332 CPU with 5MB of memory installed, no keyboard/video, terminal connection to the on-board RS-232 interface. I have a Laptop running QCTerm as a basic terminal.

So far I verified:

- The CPU passes all self tests

- The Boot Rom starts to search for a bootable disk


Next, I built a Debian based "hpdrive" system with a NI GPIB controller. The build was successful and I can mount ".hpi" images. I downloaded the "HP BASIC PLUS 6.33" hpi image from the files section of this forum and mounted it in hpdrive successfully.

Now when I try to boot this image, it starts and then just hangs:
image.png

I tried several other hpi images with HP/UX and Pascal systems from HP Museum's web site and found similar issues. The system tries to boot and hangs.
I also tried it with a second 332 CPU I have and the same issue.

My question is - does the 332 require a specific binary image to boot? Just from the release notes, I thought any BASIC version later than 5.13 would work. But maybe there were specific versions for the different CPUs?
Is there a "known working" hpi image for the 332? At this time, I don't care whether it's BASIC or HP/UX. Just trying to get to the point where I can boot anything.

Any thoughts/hints are much appreciated.

Thank you,
Wolfgang, KI7PFX



 


Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Arnie Berger
 

Does the CPU test all of memory? I would recommend that you validate the hardware first, then move to the software.

 

Arnie

 

From: VintHPcom@groups.io <VintHPcom@groups.io> On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schraml
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 10:05 AM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: [VintHPcom] HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

 

Hello,

 

I am working to build up a HP9000/332 controller (right now just for fun but eventually would like to use it together with my HP 8662A and 5345A).
I put together a very basic configuration to start with - 332 CPU with 5MB of memory installed, no keyboard/video, terminal connection to the on-board RS-232 interface. I have a Laptop running QCTerm as a basic terminal.

So far I verified:

- The CPU passes all self tests

- The Boot Rom starts to search for a bootable disk


Next, I built a Debian based "hpdrive" system with a NI GPIB controller. The build was successful and I can mount ".hpi" images. I downloaded the "HP BASIC PLUS 6.33" hpi image from the files section of this forum and mounted it in hpdrive successfully.

Now when I try to boot this image, it starts and then just hangs:
image.png

I tried several other hpi images with HP/UX and Pascal systems from HP Museum's web site and found similar issues. The system tries to boot and hangs.
I also tried it with a second 332 CPU I have and the same issue.

My question is - does the 332 require a specific binary image to boot? Just from the release notes, I thought any BASIC version later than 5.13 would work. But maybe there were specific versions for the different CPUs?
Is there a "known working" hpi image for the 332? At this time, I don't care whether it's BASIC or HP/UX. Just trying to get to the point where I can boot anything.

Any thoughts/hints are much appreciated.

Thank you,
Wolfgang, KI7PFX




Re: HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Martin Trusler
 

Hi Wolfgang
I suggest installing Basic 6.4 alone first. Basic Plus most probably needs a floating point processor to be present, which isn't the case for a standard model 332.
I hope this helps.
Martin

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 18:04, Wolfgang Schraml <wschraml@...> wrote:
Hello,
 
I am working to build up a HP9000/332 controller (right now just for fun but eventually would like to use it together with my HP 8662A and 5345A).
I put together a very basic configuration to start with - 332 CPU with 5MB of memory installed, no keyboard/video, terminal connection to the on-board RS-232 interface. I have a Laptop running QCTerm as a basic terminal.
So far I verified:
- The CPU passes all self tests
- The Boot Rom starts to search for a bootable disk



Next, I built a Debian based "hpdrive" system with a NI GPIB controller. The build was successful and I can mount ".hpi" images. I downloaded the "HP BASIC PLUS 6.33" hpi image from the files section of this forum and mounted it in hpdrive successfully.

Now when I try to boot this image, it starts and then just hangs:
image.png

I tried several other hpi images with HP/UX and Pascal systems from HP Museum's web site and found similar issues. The system tries to boot and hangs.
I also tried it with a second 332 CPU I have and the same issue.

My question is - does the 332 require a specific binary image to boot? Just from the release notes, I thought any BASIC version later than 5.13 would work. But maybe there were specific versions for the different CPUs?
Is there a "known working" hpi image for the 332? At this time, I don't care whether it's BASIC or HP/UX. Just trying to get to the point where I can boot anything.

Any thoughts/hints are much appreciated.

Thank you,
Wolfgang, KI7PFX






--
J P Martin Trusler
Tel: +44 (0)7734 590826


HP9000/332 Boot Image Question

Wolfgang Schraml
 

Hello,
 
I am working to build up a HP9000/332 controller (right now just for fun but eventually would like to use it together with my HP 8662A and 5345A).
I put together a very basic configuration to start with - 332 CPU with 5MB of memory installed, no keyboard/video, terminal connection to the on-board RS-232 interface. I have a Laptop running QCTerm as a basic terminal.
So far I verified:
- The CPU passes all self tests
- The Boot Rom starts to search for a bootable disk



Next, I built a Debian based "hpdrive" system with a NI GPIB controller. The build was successful and I can mount ".hpi" images. I downloaded the "HP BASIC PLUS 6.33" hpi image from the files section of this forum and mounted it in hpdrive successfully.

Now when I try to boot this image, it starts and then just hangs:
image.png

I tried several other hpi images with HP/UX and Pascal systems from HP Museum's web site and found similar issues. The system tries to boot and hangs.
I also tried it with a second 332 CPU I have and the same issue.

My question is - does the 332 require a specific binary image to boot? Just from the release notes, I thought any BASIC version later than 5.13 would work. But maybe there were specific versions for the different CPUs?
Is there a "known working" hpi image for the 332? At this time, I don't care whether it's BASIC or HP/UX. Just trying to get to the point where I can boot anything.

Any thoughts/hints are much appreciated.

Thank you,
Wolfgang, KI7PFX





Re: Clarification of CS/80 support on the series 200 computers?

 

On 12/15/19 6:20 AM, Anders wrote:
Anyway, this is it booting BASIC 4.0: https://youtu.be/9KQDM3mGMlI     
        <https://youtu.be/9KQDM3mGMlI>
This is great work!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


Re: Clarification of CS/80 support on the series 200 computers?

Anders
 

Anyway, this is it booting BASIC 4.0: https://youtu.be/9KQDM3mGMlI             


Building stuff for posterity

Anders
 

Soapbox on

Just a thought... If you create stuff that might be useful for others, then do make plans in case you are not here :) Humans have a limited lifespan and will eventually be recycled. It is always sad when something very useful you come to rely on ceases to work because that sole person that built it and maintaned it is no longer with us.

The best way is as always to open-source your design. Publish the code. Publish the schematics. That way you will ensure that whatever you build will benefit others, long after you are gone.

Soapbox off.


Re: BASIC 5.1 / 4MB RAM Board for Series 200 Computers

Anders
 

Any idea how to get in touch with him? I have tried emailing, but received no reply.


Spare "6" key for a HP9816?

Anders
 

This keycap is missing on mine.


RMB code to do a checksum as hpcrc?

Anders
 

Asking if anyone has any pointers? The old HP Logic Analysers have built in checksumming. They do a CRC on the data when storing and checks that CRC when reading. I have code for that in "C".

Reason why I ask is that I need a way to verify my AMIGO emulation. My idea was for someone to create files with known data and checksum on disk. Then as an image file that I could read back and verify. I could do that on my HP3852, but it is CS/80 only and my HP 1630D only creates small files.


Re: That 9816 keyboard...

Anders
 

I took the keyboard apart en cleaned it yesterday. Put all keycaps in mild dishwashing liquid for a few hours and then brushed them individually and let them dry. I now see that you can easily acess the contacts from above so I cut small strips of cardboard, folded in half with the coarse side our. Dabbed on some contact cleaner. Inserted between contacts, pushed down as to close the contacts and moved the cardboard gently. That removed some gunk as could clearly be seen by the discolouration of the cardboard. We shall see how it works after reassembly.


Re: Clarification of CS/80 support on the series 200 computers?

Anders
 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 02:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote:
The Installing and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System manual
Sigh, another 500+ pages :) I do not have the memory for that though. OTOH, can I boot BASIC 4.0 and there it asks for three diskettes in succession and I can clearly see it loadng drivers for CS/80.


Re: HP-HIL and USB

Anders
 

Another option would be one of the MIcrochip 24-series MCUs that has USB circuitry built in. That is probably the route I would take, but then again am I partial as I have been working with those processors for a long time. Generally, the best hardware is what you are comfortable working with for a project like this. It should be fairly easy to build something that can either accept a PS/2 or USB keyboard.


Re: HP-HIL and USB

Kuba Ober
 

It’s possible that an off the shelf FTDI dongle might do it, as long as it has a bunch of pins broken out. Their chips (like FT232R) have a buffered parallel bit-bang mode. You get 8 I/O lines that you can drive and sample at an arbitrary speed. You could probably use one or two lines and a clever drive pattern to do charge pumping to generate signals above 5V or below 0V.

An AVR will have no problem sampling at whatever async frequency, because you can use DMA and a timer to capture a raw bit steam off a port, as well as send out a bitstream from RAM. It’s a byte per sample, but those chips have enough ram to make that work. So you won’t have any interrupt overheads.

I could probably whip out some Arduino code and a software test bench to check it out, if there’s interest.

Cheers, Kuba

14 dec. 2019 kl. 5:12 em skrev Chris Hanson <cmhanson@...>:


On Dec 12, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Dave via Groups.Io <dfnr2@...> wrote:

I think the USB to HIL interface would probably be the easiest and cheapest option.

I’ve looked into building a HP-HIL to USB interface a bit and it’s going to be a little bit of work:

I. Connections
Sourcing the connectors and cabling for HIL is difficult. And the connectors are rare enough that taking things apart to use their HIL connectors isn’t really a good idea. (Except maybe ID boxes.) At least the “HIL extender” systems use DB-15 on one side so you can use that as an endpoint without dismantling anything.

II. Hardware Interfacing
I recall the voltage levels involved in HIL being slightly different than TTL, which means building custom level shifters out of transistors. At least getting transistors that cleanly switch at 200+ KHz shouldn’t be difficult.

III. Low-level protocol
The low-level protocol for HIL is trivial—it’s basically just bidirectional serial with a start bit, stop bit, and parity—but you can’t get off-the-shelf hardware to speak it because it’s an un-clocked 100kbps protocol with 15-bit packets and pretty strict timing requirements. So you’re looking at making your own UART either with bit-banging or logic. This gives, for example, a 16MHz Arduino approximately 160 clock cycles per bit—which doesn’t give it time for much else, especially since you need to be able to both transmit and receive.

IV. High-level protocol
Once you get packets going back and forth, this part is easy; there are plenty of examples in NetBSD et al, in addition to what’s in the HP-HIL protocol reference. Building an API to talk to devices and translate them to something modern should be straightforward if everything else is taken care of.

The approach that I’ve planned to take whenever I try this again is to use an AVR or two solely as a custom UART since 160 cycles/bit should easily be sufficient for a polled/bit-banged software UART implementation, with room enough to implement a couple of registers and buffers accessible by the actual host device, which would be something more like a Cortex M series that implements the high-level protocol and USB HID.

In other words:

USB HID <—> Cortex (HID/HIL) <—> AVR (custom UART) <—> DB-15 HIL

Make sense?

  — Chris

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