Date   
Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

Ansgar
 

Addendum: according to the TACO ERS documentation, TACO obviously really has been designed to read and write 9825 tapes (full 17-bit support for read/write/checksum operations).

Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

Ansgar
 

Ok, thanks to Dyke, we now may forget about 9825 tape format and SIF, both are quite similar, but not identical. So I guess it is still open whether it is possible to read a 9825 tape with TACO. But also thanks to Dyke, we have pretty much data on both TACO and 9825 format.

New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

VintHPcom@groups.io Notification <VintHPcom+notification@...>
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the VintHPcom@groups.io group.

File: 9825statements.pdf

Uploaded By: Dyke Shaffer

Description:
informal documentation on HPL option rom statement implementation

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.io/g/VintHPcom/files/HP%209825/9825%20Binary/9825statements.pdf

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

VintHPcom@groups.io Notification <VintHPcom+notification@...>
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the VintHPcom@groups.io group.

File: 9825tapeFileFormat.pdf

Uploaded By: Dyke Shaffer

Description:
9825 cartridge tape file format documentation

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.io/g/VintHPcom/files/HP%209825/9825%20Binary//9825tapeFileFormat.pdf

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

Re: HP 9830 diagnostic tapes - duplication?

Ansgar
 

Here is what is included in my version of Achim's emulator package:

09839-70800 STAT PAC Vol 1 GENERAL.tape
09839-70825 STAT PAC Vol 2 MLR.tape
09839-70827 STAT PAC Vol 3.tape
09839-70854 STATISTICAL DISTRIBUTIONS PAC.tape
blank.tape
HP11273-60004 SYSTEMS TAPE.tape
HP11273-90030 9880 SERVICE CASSETTE.tape
HP9820 PEEK.tape
HP9830 3D-PLOT.tape
HP9830 FILE DUMP.tape
HP9830 GRAVLENS.tape
HP9830 MEMORY DUMP.tape
HP9830 PEEK.tape
HP9830 UNSEC.tape
HP9830-70000 MATH PAC1.tape
HP9830-76000 PLOTTER PAC.tape
HP9830-90014 TRAINING.tape
HP9830-90035 SYSTEM TEST.tape

I hardly can imagine there is much more than this.

Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

Ansgar
 

Kuba, of course you are right. In fact we sometimes think about "can that be done" instead of "what would be the professional way". The other point is that you still need the proper setup for reading out the tapes, which also includes suitable read heads. Adding all that together, thinking about using the TACO again becomes an attractive alternative, because it is quite versatile. But to be honest, I am even more interested in the TACO itself than in using it for reading out old data :-) Since we do not yet have a true low level image of a 9825 tape, we know very few about its format. Wo knows, maybe reading 9825 tapes is possible by using the SIF utilities from the 9845 utilities package...

Re: imaging/duplicating HP tape cartridges - lots of questions

 

On Oct 24, 2018, at 09:51, Dyke Shaffer <@seravant> wrote:

Turns out the source code for the 9875 has been preserved and is available to review if there were interest, Dyke
Yes please, I have a 9875. It's not quite working at the moment, it seems it wants to spin the tapes in the opposite direction from the 85 and 9825.

Re: Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

Stan
 

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the pointer! Don't know how I missed that one...

Stan

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Berger
Sent: Oct 24, 2018 6:35 AM
To: VintHPcom@groups.io
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

There is a manual for this card on hpmuseum.net

Paul.


On 2018-10-24 8:53 AM, Stan wrote:

Great! So that being said, do instructions exist for setting the various switches on the board, the order that the EPROMs are installed, etc.?

 

Stan

 

Yes, you can ;)

There are also HPL ROM boards but no Pascal. Pascal uses the P-system which needs the disc to boot.

-Rik

 


Re: imaging/duplicating HP tape cartridges - lots of questions

Dyke Shaffer
 

Paul,  am pretty sure the 9877 was just 4 9825 tape drives and their 4 discrete controller boards out of the 9825 set to individual peripheral address, do remember seeing them from time to time in production area.

Regarding the 9875 dual tape drive, this was known by the internal project name Spinner, and as best remember was a BPC alone with a pair of TACO controlling the two tape drives.

Turns out the source code for the 9875 has been preserved and is available to review if there were interest,  Dyke

Re: Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

Paul Berger
 

There is a manual for this card on hpmuseum.net

Paul.


On 2018-10-24 8:53 AM, Stan wrote:

Great! So that being said, do instructions exist for setting the various switches on the board, the order that the EPROMs are installed, etc.?

 

Stan

 

Yes, you can ;)

There are also HPL ROM boards but no Pascal. Pascal uses the P-system which needs the disc to boot.

-Rik

 


Re: HP 9830 diagnostic tapes - duplication?

Jack Rubin
 

I was afraid the answer would be something like this but I couldn't find a description in the docs. Where can I find more info? I'm hoping that a solution similar to what Jim Battle did with Wang tapes using a four-head machine  - https://github.com/jtbattle/WangWav2Tape - might work. At least I'm willing to give it a try.

Another possibility for archiving would be Brent Hilpert's 9865-computer interface - http://madrona.ca/e/HP9830/hp9865/index.html . This is more straight forward but requires a working 9865 as part of the process. I have a 9865 but have never checked it out since my 9830 is not yet fully operational. 

And the second part of my original post - does anyone have these tapes and have they been duplicated? I'll be much less worried about the process if I know the images exist.

Achim Buerger includes the 9830-90035 system test tape as well as a couple of tapes for the 9880 Mass Memory subsystem with his emulator, so I know at least these three have been digitized. What else exists?

Thanks,
Jack

Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

Kuba Ober
 

Isn’t the focus on the controller chip a bit of a diversion from the goal of data preservation, though? I can’t imagine that there’s much else to do than attaching a multichannel digitizer to the read amplifier output, capturing the waveforms at a couple MHz sampling rate, storing the raw waveforms, and then decoding it all using modern software? That would preserve everything that is on tape, assuming no head misalignment issues, and would obviate the need of messing with ailing hardware more than once, nor with decoder chips nor legacy software.

That’s how most data preservation seems to be done when the tapes are ailing or there’s potentially more information that can be recovered using fixed-function legacy read channels. This was how Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project (LOIRP) did it, but they aren’t the only ones. The “hook up a fast A/D to it and dump it to a big disk” approach works quite well for a lot of magnetic storage.

Cheers, Kuba Ober

24 okt. 2018 kl. 06:54 skrev Dyke Shaffer <dykeshaffer@...>:

This copy of the Taco ERS was my working documentation from 1976 while helping with mask release due diligence, and given its inclusion of a design change list implemented to fix bugs prior to production release, may well be the best most accurate description available of the production Taco implementation.

My renewed interest in Taco is motivated by an interesting possibility regarding the possibility of improving chances of recovering files from aging 9825 tape cartridges using Taco's 9825 read / write capability.

There is an assembler binary ( TREAD ) for the 9845 that was written to read files from dc100 tapes written by the 9825 into strings in the 9845 presumably as part of the evaluation of the Taco design intent to support both SIF and HPL tape formats. An 11 page paper listing of the ISOURCE has survived and is next in line to be scanned and uploaded perhaps later today as a reference implementation of Taco being used to read HPL tapes.

This could be an important development in attempts to preserve what can be recovered from those few older 9825 tapes that were afforded adequate environmental protection to be successfully read one last time. The Taco implementation with acceleration control and tracking flux transitions should provide a superior read back experience. Time will tell if such an experiment is possible with what is now in hand.

I'm following the best practice in tape recovery available and waiting to get the chance to use possibly use a Taco tape drive to perform the last best chance for forensic read back before giving up on these older tapes.

There is the a further albeit more remote possibility of repurposing a 9835 keyboard for use in a 9825 where a Taco driver or binary could be leveraged to provide a better method of writing dc100's from HPL as perhaps as the preferred  means of recreating reference HPL tapes. Just an idea probably long past its prime for sure, interesting none the less.

Dyke

Re: HP 9830 diagnostic tapes - duplication?

Steve Leibson
 

In addition to the different head layout and the use of two tracks to record the bit patterns, the 9830's tape drive itself doesn't use the capstan and pinch roller of the standard Phillips audio cassette. Instead, the 9830 tape drive powers the spindles directly. That means that the 9830 tape doesn't run at a "constant" linear rate (ignoring wow and flutter) across the head like audio tapes do, so a standard audio tape drive can't replicate the 9830 tape drive's constantly changing linear tape speed as the tape spools from one reel to the other. As the data is self-clocking, that may not matter but unless you build some sort of Doppler circuit to drive the capstan motor, you won't be able to make a true duplicate of a 9830 cassette with an audio cassette drive.

It seems to me (warning, fading memory) that you could flip the tape cassette in the 9830 and store data on both "sides" of the cassette, so the two read/write tracks can't be in the exact center of the tape. There has to be an offset to make the flip work.

--Steve



On 10/23/2018 10:24 PM, Rik Bos wrote:
Jack,

It can't be copied with a normal cassette drive. The track of the 9830 drive are located in the middle of the tape. The head layoutis different, you'll need a 9865 drive to do the copying. Iet me know if you need one, I do have a spare drive.

-Rik

-Rik




On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM +0200, "Jack Rubin" <j@...> wrote:

Can HP 9830 cassette tapes be duplicated with a standard cassette recorder?  I've found a fair amount of information on the tape data format and tape drive logic but little solid information on the actual tape drive itself and if it is similar to a standard audio drive, particularly in the physical track layout.

I may have access to a set of 9830 diagnostic tapes and I'd like to digitize them for preservation and future use. 

Has anybody done this yet?

Jack

-- 
Steve Leibson

Phone (Cell): 408-910-5992
Phone (Home): 408-292-4930


Please feel free to link to me on LinkedIn


History site: www.hp9825.com

Re: Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

HP75_8687
 

Hello Stan,

 

I know that Dominique Berget designed BASIC ROM DIO card clones, version 5.1 ( the latest BASIC version ).

You can find his contact email address at the hpmuseum.net site; if I remember correctly, one of Dominique’s older BASIC card projects is mentioned there ( 4.0 ?).

I don’t know if he has any of these boards left, or if there is a chance for a new production run; certainly that depends on the order quantity ( maybe you could initiate a common order, if others are interested as well).

I own such a board, and it works perfectly fine.

But the effort to produce them is high, allow for about € 200.- per piece.

The original BASIC 5.1 rom board ( at the moment I haven’t got the HP part number for it at hand, sorry) is extremely rare. A year ago or so one was sold on Ebay for more than $300, IIRC. So waiting for another auction for this one isn’t a reasonable alternative.

Perhaps you find a solution to build your own board. Otherwise, if you should decide to contact Dominique, please pass on my best wishes.

Best regards,

Michael

 

P.S.: There is one drawback of the ROM version of BASIC 5.1:

Unlike the RAM version, the BASIC code obviously can’t be modified.

That prevents the use of the BASIC compiler along with the ROM version, because the compiler tries to modify the BASIC code.

 

Von: VintHPcom@groups.io [mailto:VintHPcom@groups.io] Im Auftrag von Stan
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober
2018 03:40
An: VintHPcom@groups.io
Betreff: [VintHPcom] Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

 

I have a working 9826A and would like to have a BASIC language ROM card for it. Can I use a 98255A card with programmed EEPROMs to do this? I have access to a BASIC 5.0 ROM card with socketed EPROMS, so I can copy those if my idea is feasible. And if this will work, are there later versions of ROM BASIC (or ROM Pascal or ROM HPL) available?

Thanks,
Stan

Re: Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

Stan
 

Great! So that being said, do instructions exist for setting the various switches on the board, the order that the EPROMs are installed, etc.?

 

Stan

 

Yes, you can ;)

There are also HPL ROM boards but no Pascal. Pascal uses the P-system which needs the disc to boot.

-Rik

 

Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

Dyke Shaffer
 

This copy of the Taco ERS was my working documentation from 1976 while helping with mask release due diligence, and given its inclusion of a design change list implemented to fix bugs prior to production release, may well be the best most accurate description available of the production Taco implementation.

My renewed interest in Taco is motivated by an interesting possibility regarding the possibility of improving chances of recovering files from aging 9825 tape cartridges using Taco's 9825 read / write capability.

There is an assembler binary ( TREAD ) for the 9845 that was written to read files from dc100 tapes written by the 9825 into strings in the 9845 presumably as part of the evaluation of the Taco design intent to support both SIF and HPL tape formats. An 11 page paper listing of the ISOURCE has survived and is next in line to be scanned and uploaded perhaps later today as a reference implementation of Taco being used to read HPL tapes.

This could be an important development in attempts to preserve what can be recovered from those few older 9825 tapes that were afforded adequate environmental protection to be successfully read one last time. The Taco implementation with acceleration control and tracking flux transitions should provide a superior read back experience. Time will tell if such an experiment is possible with what is now in hand.

I'm following the best practice in tape recovery available and waiting to get the chance to use possibly use a Taco tape drive to perform the last best chance for forensic read back before giving up on these older tapes.

There is the a further albeit more remote possibility of repurposing a 9835 keyboard for use in a 9825 where a Taco driver or binary could be leveraged to provide a better method of writing dc100's from HPL as perhaps as the preferred  means of recreating reference HPL tapes. Just an idea probably long past its prime for sure, interesting none the less.

Dyke

Re: New file uploaded to VintHPcom@groups.io

fulivi@...
 

My jaw drops...
This is the document I've looking for since I started reverse engineering the TACO chip (in late 2015).
Now I can go back and see how close I got to the real thing. It will be very instructive to see what I got right and where I went off road.
Thanks a lot Dyke for the doc! I always knew that something like this existed somewhere...
--F.Ulivi
PS: just in case you're interested in the result of my R.E. of TACO, have a look here: hp_taco.cpp.
I also wrote a doc with my findings, I guess it's kind of pointless now.

Re: HP 9830 diagnostic tapes - duplication?

Ansgar
 

In addition to what Rik already wrote: Guess the 9830 uses two tracks as a combined 2-bit stream, i.e. all data is either 00, 01, 10 or 11. Some of this is data, some others sync/clock. So the R/W head always reads/writes both tracks. If you copy the tracks individually, you will loose between the tracks.

Jack,

It can't be copied with a normal cassette drive. The track of the 9830 drive are located in the middle of the tape. The head layoutis different, you'll need a 9865 drive to do the copying. Iet me know if you need one, I do have a spare drive.

-Rik

-Rik




On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM +0200, "Jack Rubin" <j@...> wrote:

Can HP 9830 cassette tapes be duplicated with a standard cassette recorder?  I've found a fair amount of information on the tape data format and tape drive logic but little solid information on the actual tape drive itself and if it is similar to a standard audio drive, particularly in the physical track layout.

I may have access to a set of 9830 diagnostic tapes and I'd like to digitize them for preservation and future use. 

Has anybody done this yet?

Jack


Re: Can I use a 98255A EPROM card to create a bootable language card?

 

Yes, you can ;)
There are also HPL ROM boards but no Pascal. Pascal uses the P-system which needs the disc to boot.

-Rik

-Rik




On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:39 AM +0200, "Stan" <swperk@...> wrote:

I have a working 9826A and would like to have a BASIC language ROM card for it. Can I use a 98255A card with programmed EEPROMs to do this? I have access to a BASIC 5.0 ROM card with socketed EPROMS, so I can copy those if my idea is feasible. And if this will work, are there later versions of ROM BASIC (or ROM Pascal or ROM HPL) available?

Thanks,
Stan

Re: HP 9830 diagnostic tapes - duplication?

 

Jack,

It can't be copied with a normal cassette drive. The track of the 9830 drive are located in the middle of the tape. The head layoutis different, you'll need a 9865 drive to do the copying. Iet me know if you need one, I do have a spare drive.

-Rik

-Rik




On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM +0200, "Jack Rubin" <j@...> wrote:

Can HP 9830 cassette tapes be duplicated with a standard cassette recorder?  I've found a fair amount of information on the tape data format and tape drive logic but little solid information on the actual tape drive itself and if it is similar to a standard audio drive, particularly in the physical track layout.

I may have access to a set of 9830 diagnostic tapes and I'd like to digitize them for preservation and future use. 

Has anybody done this yet?

Jack