Steve
I guess we sort of diverted this thread, but.........
all this is probably going to be lost if we don't put it down somewhere now. So,
all you museum types out there - feel free to cut and past anything I ever put
down in actual words.
HP probably benefitted from Infotek in
that Infotek never made an entire competing machine and the individual
Infotek memory board set made the 9830 more competitive in the market place
performance wise. Infotek saw a need and filled it. As such, they may have
actually extended the 9830's life a bit. In pushing its own enhancement
products Infotek may actually have increased HP's unit sales of basic machines.
I don't really know since I never studied the sales and marketing data.
I do know that Infotex pushed 9830's into business
accounting applications with their memory extensions and software packs and that
was a market HP did not seem to have any interest in re the 9830. Possibly they
saw it as a competitor to the 2100 business market. I personally think HP
management was not aware that there were lots of useful things that accounting
types could do with a machine that was less than a mainframe or a minicomputer
and one that was available on their desk top for their own personal use.
They saw that benefit in the case of the engineer and scientist, but probably
not in the case of the accountant and manager. Those types were just bean
counters - right - who wants them to be able to do more. They will just get in
our way more.
For me personally, Infotek was a bit of an embarrassment
and an ego thing. Infotek boards were a better product primarily because they
were based on chips that did not exist when the 9830 was designed. Even so, It
was very hard to watch someone else do something better than what we were doing
at that moment. For me, it was sort of an insult. How dare they even try to do
something better than us! Some of us just wanted to go kick some butt and show
them who's who. The whole idea of not being the best at everything just did not
sit well.
And for me too, HP was the pinnacle - the absolute best
in so many ways. Even tough I rose to high level positions elsewhere, nothing
really compares. I never felt better than I did being a part of that group and
that golden time. So, why did so many of us leave? How did a history major end
up running the show? What killed HP as an industry leader? Now that would be an
interesting thread!
Lee W
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] History of RTE
Lee,
Thanks for sharing your memories on the IBM 5100 and HP 9845 development. IBM
swung and missed on the 5100, but the IBM 5150 (aka the IBM PC) seems to have
gained some market traction. All it took was a 1-digit fix, apparently.
As I recall when I joined HP Loveland in 1975, the 9845 teams seemed to
consume half the lab. The rest was parceled out to the 9815, 9825, and
peripherals groups. The 9815 group was really tiny. It was a pretty simple
machine, but a nice one. The 9825 project, which I was somewhat involved with,
got about a quarter of the lab, and the peripherals and I/O group (where I was
assigned) got the rest. I remember standing next to lab stock in the center of
the lab one night at midnight, thinking that I could not believe they actually
paid me to do this job. I'd have done it for free. Haven't felt that way again
in four decades.
I love your phrase "RTV brackets" because the practice is still in full use.
Nearly all switching power supplies use that "technology" for stabilizing
electrolytic capacitors on the board. Big globs of bracketing.
As for Infotek, I've got a long story about the company on HP9825.com based
on interviews with the principals:
http://www.hp9825.com/html/infotek.html
HP didn't just tolerate Infotek, it spurred them on. As you say, HP's focus
at that point was the next-generation machines, not extending the existing
generation.
The HP 9830 was the machine that directly led me to Loveland. My university,
Case Western in Cleveland, installed an HP 9830 and an HP 9866 in a spare room
in the dorm commons building and you could sign up for hour-long sessions where
it was just you and the machine in a room, alone. Compared to the Univac 1108
and the hulking line-printer/card-reader interfaces we used for other computer
classes at Case, the HP 9830 was a bolt of lightning for myriad reasons. It was
the first time I'd ever seen a real personal computer. And... IT PLAYED STAR
TREK! This was in 1974.
A few months later, HP was one of the companies that came recruiting on
campus. I got an interview and I told the interviewer that I did not care which
division of HP was responsible for the HP 9830, and I didn't care where that
division was, but my goal was to go there and work there because they were
starting a revolution with that machine.
The interviewer was from HP Loveland. His name was Chuck Near. He'd designed
the HP 9830 processor board, based on the HP 2116 ISA. His reply was "I think
that can be arranged." I went straight into his Peripherals and I/O group in the
HP Loveland lab.
--Steve
On 8/19/2020 12:40 AM, Lee A. White via
groups.io wrote:
Steve
Yeah, there were lots of obviously non-production
parts in it, including a bunch of what I called RTV brackets!
Stuff was just crudely glued down some where imbedded
in huge globs of RTV - no real engineering planning to it at all -
apparently!
Boards with multiple jumpers on the solder side, some
dips with legs pulled up out of the through hole and wires soldered on, and
some parts hand added where no parts were supposed to be.
Scuttle butt was that a customer of IBM had it for
early evaluation, did not like it much, and an HP salesman saw it and somehow
talked them into loaning it to us.
That explanation sounded reasonable but it was not
official and I have no idea if there was any truth in it.
I tore it apart, photographed it all, inventoried
components for costing, and put it all back together - so you could not
tell.
No docs came with it - or at least I never saw
any.
A software guy played with it for a bit before
I disassembled it, and a EE looked the boards over while it was in pieces
on my lab bench.
It sat out for a while for others to take a look see
too.
We were deep into the 9845 "qwert" project at the time
and that was goig to be a really fantastic machine.
Absolutely no one was impressed with that 5100
- except in a very bad way.
As you say, compared to the 9845 - it was a
joke.
No one saw a threat in it either.
Then it disappeared.
One of those interesting little
incidents.
Another comment:
I have heard a number of people talk glowingly about
the Infotek boards and upgrades to the 9830 - and they worked and they were
surprisingly good too - and then question why HP let them alone to do what
they did and to make the money they did doing it. Surely, the
thought goes - hp could have done it better, outclassed them, and blown them
away. The question was why didn't HP follow up and upgrade the 9830/9866
and protect that market? The answer is simple - Bill and Dave thought the 9830
was just too darned slow and so all the lab resources were going into the 9845
especially, and to a lesser extent the lower cost 9815, and 9825. The 9830 was
really wonderful in its own way and I loved that machine (still have one
today), but it was so slow. The 9845 was revolutionary in its own way and
it was going to be so fast and so powerful and still easy to use too
- and it was going kill the 9830 and everything else in the market
too. Slowing the 9845 development project just to protect the 9830 market
and fight Infotek would have been a very bad decision. Besides, we
continued to sell 9830s and 9866s even if people bought them, then pulled
boards and replaced them with Infotek ones.
If anything, that IBM 5100 showed just how far ahead
we were gong to be with the 9845.
Lee
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] History of RTE
Lee,
I remember that IBM 5100 in the lab in Loveland. Heavy, clunky thing with
that enormous and slow DC300 tape. It also had a big, red switch on the front
for selecting the operating language: Basic or APL. That too was hilarious. I
didn't realize it had been hand built.
--Steve
On 8/18/2020 7:02 PM, Lee A. White via
groups.io wrote:
I was sort of an advisor to other divisions on wave
soldering and PCB assembly problems, and I got quite a few calls from other
divisions.??While I was working as a design engineer on the 9845 project I
was told not to take any more calls from outside the division??unless I
really knew the person -??and recognized their voice. I was to get their
name and number and division, and then hang up and call the division
operator and ask for the person and verify they had called me. That way
outsiders could not fake it and get inside info. Supposedly they had
instances of someone unknown doing exactly that. I did wonder how they knew
about my calls.
??
There was another time some one was observed across
the street looking at the building with big binoculars for what was more
than??a short time. A lab manager went around looking at white boards and
was a bit surprised what was there in plain sight. Rumor was that a few
people were talked to about what was on their white boards and we got some
new window treatments too. That was not so bad??because those were big tall
south facing windows.
??
When I was given what was obviously a hand built
prototype of IBM's 5100 desk top entry to study and report on - this was
before it was introduced to the market - I had to wonder just how HP got
ahold of it! I never got an answer - just a smile.
??
??
Lee W
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] History of RTE
Oh yeah, we got some of the same. ??When it came to spectrum
they were pretty closed mouth to non-division folks. ??I was there for 400
level commercial training and while I had my Southern Sales badge I had
Computer Systems badges too all that and a green anytime, anywhere ID we
could wander at will. ??But you???re right you never talked with sales guys
they were almost the enemy.??
Regards,
??
Stephen
Hanselman
Datagate Systems,
LLC
???
I think it was pretty common knowledge around
Loveland CPD that they were??called calculators for marketing reasons. I
know I was told that. Back then pretty much any government or??academic
and many business computer purchasing decisions had to be run through and
approved by??a committee, and that meant they had to be economically
justified and competitively bid out, and all that was a big hurdle and a
problem for the sales guys. Calculators could be??requested and approved
by just about anyone??with a budget and signature authority. It made a lot
of sense to me. Let IBM and all the other??"computer" guys??deal with the
committees. It was just smart to help??the science and tech guys buy their
expensive toys without much over sight or supervision and little if any
justification required. That is not to say an HP calculator could not be
justified - it is just to say that doing so??was not required.
??
Another note on my times at CPD: I never got to actually speak openly to a sales person.
I started as a manufacturing support (production process) engineer and had
to deal with plant tours at Loveland. Prior to many of them I was reminded
not to say anything about new product projects - PERIOD. Also, salesmen
were not supposed to be allowed into the lab (so I could not take them to
my desk space) or be allowed to talk to design engineers. Why? It was
explained to me that when a salesman learns of a new product in
development and then has difficulty completing a sale, he usually tries to
prevent the competitor from making a sale by talking about how great what
is coming soon is going to be and then convincing the customer to wait a
bit. That kills this sale and what is coming can get out to competition
quickly.
??
Lee W
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [VintHPcom] History of RTE
Steve,
It???s nice to hear someone else with that story, lends credence to
what I???d heard. ??If the Government wanted a computer it took a
feasibility study, they could buy calculators out of petty cash.
Regards,
??
Stephen
Hanselman
Datagate Systems,
LLC
???
And HP CPD was the Calculator Products
Division so that government procurement agents would not be buying
desktop computers, they'd be buying calculators. There was no limit on
how many calculators you could order.
--Steve
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 2:50:14 PM PDT, Jack Rubin
<j@...> wrote:
And
of course, DEC famously introduced the PDP???s as ???programmable data
processors??? because they weren???t in the computer market
either.
--
Jack
www.computerarium.org
--
Steve Leibson
Phone (Cell): 408-910-5992
Phone (Home): 408-292-4930
Please feel free to link to me on LinkedIn
History site: www.hp9825.com
#Iwork4Intel
--
Steve Leibson
Phone (Cell): 408-910-5992
Phone (Home): 408-292-4930
Please feel free to link to me on LinkedIn
History site: www.hp9825.com
#Iwork4Intel
